so...

[keithd]

you are constantly abused, have rocks thrown at you daily, people are trying to kill you wherever you go, but you are there to keep the peace.

then...

you catch a few of the little "rascals" and you give them a good hiding. and now you're in trouble.

now i'm not saying what they did was right, i'm saying i can understand WHY they did it.

[Iceman]

Agreed...

[tinpants]

Saw a similar thing about 13 years ago in Belfast. Allegedly. :roll:



Hence the saying:- Volvo. Designed by computer, built by robot, driven by joyrider, stopped by 3 Para. :shock: :lol:

Not saying what they did was right, or even legal, but you don,t get to see what happened just before the footage was taken.



:oops: Oops, sorry! Back on about Iraq again. :oops:

[tricky]

THe guy filming it was getting awfully exited, sounded like he was knocking one out while he was filming.

[fizzwheel]

Depends what you mean by a good hiding, Kicking somebody whose already on the ground and asking you to stop in between the legs is IMHO going a little to far. Also battering somebody round the head till they are lieing in a pool of their own blood is also going a little to far as wel IMHO.

I'm all for people defending themselves and I agree that we dont know what happened just before that video was shot.

[Jelster]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking....

.

[keithd]

Depends what you mean by a good hiding, Kicking somebody whose already on the ground and asking you to stop in between the legs is IMHO going a little to far. Also battering somebody round the head till they are lieing in a pool of their own blood is also going a little to far as wel IMHO.

I'm all for people defending themselves and I agree that we dont know what happened just before that video was shot.

regardless of where they kicked them and what they did to them, my point is i can STILL understand why they did it.

[fizzwheel]

Depends what you mean by a good hiding, Kicking somebody whose already on the ground and asking you to stop in between the legs is IMHO going a little to far. Also battering somebody round the head till they are lieing in a pool of their own blood is also going a little to far as wel IMHO.

I'm all for people defending themselves and I agree that we dont know what happened just before that video was shot.

regardless of where they kicked them and what they did to them, my point is i can STILL understand why they did it.

So can I, at the end of the day who out of all of us would say faced with similar circumstances that we wouldnt have done the same thing. I dont know how I would react under that kind of situation, I guess you dont until you are faced with it.

[Anonymous]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking....

.


Steve, you really havent got a ****ing clue have you my dear southern friend?

Rules of engagement? Geneva convention? Any of those phrases mean anything to you?

Yeah i know... "its a war...." we still have to adhere to them.

And yes, i do know what im talking about on this issue, i was in the forces, and a lot of my friends are actively serving in various theaters throughout the world as we sit here debating the issue.

[northwind]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking...

So it'd be OK to sink to that level? These are supposed to be professional soldiers, not hate-filled thugs. Of course I understand why they did it... But it doesn't make it OK.

[cuffy]

Pull the troops out n let em get on with it...thats what i say. :offtopic:

[haggis]

I'm not sure if i picked it up right but I think the bulletin on the radio mentioned the footage was leaked by News of the World. It seems that anything is OK to report on these days as long as it's gonna sell.

I remember hearing a propoganda phrase from the time of WW2, 'Careless talk costs lives', seems appropriate on this occasion too. They should be 100% behind our lads. Whether they should be there is another matter, but as long as they are don't go screwing it up shouting your mouth off.

[Jelster]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking....

.


Steve, you really havent got a f**king clue have you my dear southern friend?

Rules of engagement? Geneva convention? Any of those phrases mean anything to you?

Yeah i know... "its a war...." we still have to adhere to them.

And yes, i do know what im talking about on this issue, i was in the forces, and a lot of my friends are actively serving in various theaters throughout the world as we sit here debating the issue.

You're not the only one who's been in the forces Joe. Sometimes you have to get respect the hard way, break somebody, then re-educate them that life doesn't have to be like this.

Just think about it. Isn't that, too a lesser extent what the army do when you first join. Break you out of who you are and then put you back together in a way which will be better for you in the long run.

Some of these people have only ever understood that respect means violence, and there is no other way. Going in tooo soft looks like it's doing well until it bites you back on the ass...

I suppose we could always do it the Israli way, shoot them from distance then you wouldn't get into a hand to hand fight in the first place. Just think about what's happening when they're under pressure, the adrenalins flowing and they're faced with a violent gang. Asking them round for tea isn't exactly going to work is it !

.

[Anonymous]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking....

.


Steve, you really havent got a f**king clue have you my dear southern friend?

Rules of engagement? Geneva convention? Any of those phrases mean anything to you?

Yeah i know... "its a war...." we still have to adhere to them.

And yes, i do know what im talking about on this issue, i was in the forces, and a lot of my friends are actively serving in various theaters throughout the world as we sit here debating the issue.

You're not the only one who's been in the forces Joe. Sometimes you have to get respect the hard way, break somebody, then re-educate them that life doesn't have to be like this.

Just think about it. Isn't that, too a lesser extent what the army do when you first join. Break you out of who you are and then put you back together in a way which will be better for you in the long run.

Some of these people have only ever understood that respect means violence, and there is no other way. Going in tooo soft looks like it's doing well until it bites you back on the ass...

I suppose we could always do it the Israli way, shoot them from distance then you wouldn't get into a hand to hand fight in the first place. Just think about what's happening when they're under pressure, the adrenalins flowing and they're faced with a violent gang. Asking them round for tea isn't exactly going to work is it !

.

Steve,

if you were in for forces, and thats how YOU would act in that situation - you're no better than those morons we are seeing on the footage. Yes, the army do break you, then build you all back up as a "unit" so that you are working together and doing things their way. But remember, we're not training all these people to be soilders, nor are we training them. Our mission in Iraq is to instil a government that is supported by the majority of the population of Iraq. Once this is done, and the Iraqi security forces are capable of holding onto the peace, then our troops can start to pull out - this is not going to happen over night, its going to take many many many years. Look at Serbia, Bosnia etc - NATO and the UN are still there now.

I know what you're saying, and god forbid i understand it, HOWEVER, we can not stoop to their level.

Im not saying asking them around for tea. How about a squirt of mace in the face to subdue them, cuff them, then stick them in a cell. No need to take your size 12's to their crotch is there!?

Shooting them from a distance achieves nothing.. how the hell are you going to interrogate them, and gain possible vital intelligence if you blow their heads off?

Capture them, interrogate them, charge them. If we're to set an example to the people of Iraq, we need to be acting with proffessionalism, decorum, and total integrity regardless of the situation or pressure.

Oh, as for your comment of "its a WAR" Actually its no longer classified as a War. Hostitities ended sometime ago. Famously marked by George Bush's appearance on a USS Aircraft Carrier.

[Ed]

News of the World. Whose side are they on, I wonder.

[Daimo]

Wake up people, no matter what they say it's a WAR. If a squaddie were on the deck they'd take a blade to his throat, not give him a bit of a kicking....

.


Steve, you really havent got a f**king clue have you my dear southern friend?

Rules of engagement? Geneva convention? Any of those phrases mean anything to you?

Yeah i know... "its a war...." we still have to adhere to them.

And yes, i do know what im talking about on this issue, i was in the forces, and a lot of my friends are actively serving in various theaters throughout the world as we sit here debating the issue.

I think your asking the wrong person.

Go to Iraq and ask them if they even KNOW of the Rules of Engagement, Geneva convention etc..........

[northwind]

I'm not sure if i picked it up right but I think the bulletin on the radio mentioned the footage was leaked by News of the World. It seems that anything is OK to report on these days as long as it's gonna sell.

I remember hearing a propoganda phrase from the time of WW2, 'Careless talk costs lives', seems appropriate on this occasion too. They should be 100% behind our lads. Whether they should be there is another matter, but as long as they are don't go screwing it up shouting your mouth off.

I don't buy that. "My country right or wrong" These guys are acting on our behalf, in our name- we sent them there, we can't turn a blind eye to things they might do wrong just because they're "our boys".

Turning a blind eye achieves nothing- worse than that, it just means we're more likely to send them off into some other hellhole to get rocks or worse chucked at them. It's not being "behind the troops" to allow yourself to be ignorant of what they're being put through in our name. Maybe having a proper eyeful of the reality of the situation we've created will mean next time someone wants to send them off, we know what we're asking of them.

At the end of the day, are we not supposed to be the good guys? Joe made a reference to doing it the Israeli way... If we sink to that then we're ****ed.

[Anonymous]

News of the World. Whose side are they on, I wonder.

Ed, i dont think it comes down to sides.

You have to remember we live in a captalist society, therefore sensationalism sells. If they can run a few stories and in return shift a few extra thousand copies of bog roll, then they will do so.

They probably wont even consider the consequences it will have to the lives and security of the guys on the ground in Iraq.

[northwind]

Hang on. So now if the press report something that shouldn't be happening, any consequences are down to the press? If I commit a crime and you call the Police, does that make it your fault? If they were spreading misinformation or simply making it up, as one paper did earlier inthe war (I forget which) then that's one thing, but reporting the truth is a different story.

[Anonymous]

Hang on. So now if the press report something that shouldn't be happening, any consequences are down to the press? If I commit a crime and you call the Police, does that make it your fault? If they were spreading misinformation or simply making it up, as one paper did earlier inthe war (I forget which) then that's one thing, but reporting the truth is a different story.

I agree entirely in freedom of speech and freedom of press - however its one of those gray areas.

Like some one else has already pointed out, there was a slogan during WWII which went along the lines of "careless talk costs lives".

The same could be said about this kind of reporting.

[northwind]

Nah. Because people in Iraq don't read the Screws. Things like this will be reported and rumours spread on the ground there whether or not we know about it in the UK. If the forces act in a way that's likely to provoke a more extreme reaction, then that's the start and finish of the problem. Not reporting it in the UK won't hide it from Iraqis.

[Jelster]

Joe,

If you really think that, when it gets ugly, everybody is going to keep their heads then as much as you are far travelled as you are naive (and I don't believe that for an instant). When Adrenalin is pumping sometimes things go over the edge.

Kicking a guy in the nuts who's just tried to knock your brains out with a rock is not that OTT in my opinion. Giving him a good kicking when he's in the cells is different. These people have to be shown, one way or the other, that you can't go round throwing rocks at people. Most of these "insurgence" have no value on life, it means very little to them, somebody dying is an everyday occurrence. Sometime this is the only way they understand. I know it's a terrible thing to say, but you have to "talk their language" for them to understand so you can start making a difference.

.

[northwind]

If some Iraqi sees a kid being beaten to a paste by UK soldiers, do you think he thinks "Ooh, he deserved that, I'd considered throwing a rock but now I won't", or do you think he thinks "****ing English ****ard, kicking that poor kid half to death, scumbag"?

We're not talking about kicking a guy in teh nuts in soem sort of fracas here, have you seen the video?

[Jelster]

We're not talking about kicking a guy in teh nuts in soem sort of fracas here, have you seen the video?

I have to admit no, just read about it on the net, and I wasn't aware that "children" were involved.

.

[Anonymous]

We're not talking about kicking a guy in teh nuts in soem sort of fracas here, have you seen the video?

I have to admit no, just read about it on the net, and I wasn't aware that "children" were involved.

.

Jel - i appreciate and respect your view about in the heat of the moment.

I would suggest watching the tape and then seeing what you think of the situation.

Your views may/may not change.

Eitherway, i respect your opinions, and can understand from which angle you're approaching it.

[Iansv]

i'd have shot em personally... Bloody press

[454697819]

if i had been there shot at day after day.. abused insulted.. and i go tthe chance.. they woudl have got the pointy bit of my size 15's...

I cannot condone it but it is war...

however did this sort of thing happen during the second world war?

Probably.. so we only know because of the media...

y oh y didnt they keep there traps shut... :roll:

[philipMac]

All I am going to say is this:
I dont love cops. I am not a massive cop fan. I have been lied to, and messed around by cops.

But, it wasnt untill I came out to the US that I lost all respect for them. I have no respect for the police here. No matter how bad things were in Ireland/UK/Germany/Norway/Holland/South America I always respected the position. The reason I hold US police force in such low regard is because of what they do. They have lowered themselves to the level of, and below the level of the thugs. And thats the line.

When you lower yourself to this level, something fundamentally changes. And, if "peace keepers" or whatever are behaving in this way, then the people turn around to the *******s who are strapping bombs to them selves and think... yeah, he has a point.

MLK Jr rose above it, Gandhi rose above it. They proved themselves to be better people than their rulers. Soldiers have to do likewise. Doesnt matter what they might do. You have to be better than them. And keep being better than them.

[tinpants]

Before all this descends into a massive slanging match and Fizz deletes the thread, there are one or two points I would like to make.

1) Rules of Engagement.
These exist primarily for the protection of the Armed Forces in an operational theatre. Nothing more, nothing less. They tell the individual when they can or, as the case may be, cannot OPEN FIRE on a person or persons who are about to endanger life, be it your own or those of your colleagues. They do NOT govern giving someone a good hiding as was implied in an earlier post.

2) Geneva Convention.
As far as I am aware, Iraq have not signed up to this. This does not give British Forces carte blanche to assault who they want but by the same token the Iraqis can't hide behind iot either. Just for the record, guess what other country currently with forces in theatre hasn't signed it? That'll be America then.

3)War- or not?
None of the countries that were involved in the, ahem, liberation of Iraq actually went as far as Declaring a State of War. Therefore, its not technically a war. The ceremony involving President Georgedubyabush on the aircraft carrier was for the Cessation of Hostilities. Not the end of the war.


4) Fair Treatment?
Any allusion to unfair treatment of Iraqi citizens should take into account what would happen if it was Iraqi soldiers with Brit kids. The kids would get a major shoeing and no mistake. People need to realise that the fair treatment of prisoners / suspects is a predominantly Western aspiration. Look anywhere else in the world and you'll find that this is not, generally, the case.



As I've said before, there is no way the actions of a few people can be taken as the intent of the rest. There is no way that these guys represent the rest of the Brits in theatre. If they are found - and they will be - they will recieve the fullest penalty that military law allows. The Army, for all its faults, takes a real dim view of things like this.


Anyway thats just my humble opinion. Apart from points 1 and 2 which are, as far as I know, completely accurate.

[philipMac]

If they are found - and they will be - they will recieve the fullest penalty that military law allows. The Army, for all its faults, takes a real dim view of things like this.

If they do not, they are no better than Sinn Fein, who refused to condem IRA violence.

I have no doubt the British army will deal with these people in the proper way.

[Biker Biggles]

For what it's worth I think it is unfair and immoral to send groups of armed young men into situations like we see here and expect them NOT to react in this way.Giving a good hiding to those who have just been involved in trying to kill you is not unreasonable IMHO,and I'm amazed there's not more of it.
I find it hypocritical when the great and the good get on their high horses about it.When was the last time they had rocks and petrol bombs thrown at them?
I'm not ex military but I have been in vaguely comparable situations in my youth and I showed rather less restraint at times than those squaddies.So I won't condemn them from the comfort of my living room.

[Peter Henry]

Ignoring the political back drop of Iraq I feel we must be aware that the alien environment of dealing with street militia and crazed hoardes of civilians is not something that your average soldier receives in depth training on.

The beating that was metered out which was shown so graphically in the video cannot be justified,however some empathy with the average young soldier who receives provocation at every turn.

We can judge from the safety of our homes pictures brought to us via satellite, as we carry out our "normal" lives. But it must be so easy to snap in those situations,when people who one minute are seemingly going about their everyday business,suddenly begin pelting you with rocks and whatever else they can lay their hands on. Nerves must be taught as wire at the best of times.

There are games of "dare" going on also where, as life has no future for so many of these people they can only hope to bask momentarily in the admiration of their twisted comrades.


This beating was not acceptable to any decent person,nor might I add is the twisted rhetoric and butchering of innocents that the "insurgents" are so proud to stage for cameras at the drop of a hat.

As an aside, those that just condemned this beating out of hand,are you equally outraged about the two prison officers battered to a pulp in Bellmarsh prison over the past few days? Attacked with both a snooker queue(sp) and tins of tuna concealed inside a sock,(believe me being hit with that when it has been swung at you is damned painful) And the perpetrators where? Islamic extremists! :twisted:

[philipMac]

For what it's worth I think it is unfair and immoral to send groups of armed young men into situations like we see here and expect them NOT to react in this way.Giving a good hiding to those who have just been involved in trying to kill you is not unreasonable IMHO,and I'm amazed there's not more of it.
I find it hypocritical when the great and the good get on their high horses about it.When was the last time they had rocks and petrol bombs thrown at them?
I'm not ex military but I have been in vaguely comparable situations in my youth and I showed rather less restraint at times than those squaddies.So I won't condemn them from the comfort of my living room.

So, there is a teacher, and 3 of his students key up his car. He knows they do this, but cant proove it. Cant do anything about it. So, in class, he refers to them as niggers. What's the answer nigger? And so on.

This is ok? No. It's unacceptable. Its that simple. Its unacceptable behaviour. It should, and will be punished.

[philipMac]

As an aside, those that just condemned this beating out of hand,are you equally outraged about the two prison officers battered to a pulp in Bellmarsh prison over the past few days? Attacked with both a snooker queue(sp) and tins of tuna concealed inside a sock,(believe me being hit with that when it has been swung at you is damned painful) And the perpetrators where? Islamic extremists! :twisted:

Yup.
It doesnt mean that I think its fine for the officers to beat seven shades of shi'ite out of them the following day. I would defend officers using fatal force to defend themselves in a situation. I would do the same. If its me or him, and he is the aggressor, its him.

Its differant to go in a while later, and batter them.

This is vengence.

[Biker Biggles]

Phil Mac-----I'm sure you are correct,but for the life of me I can't see the connection between what I wrote and what you said in reply.

[philipMac]

Phil Mac-----I'm sure you are correct,but for the life of me I can't see the connection between what I wrote and what you said in reply.
:lol: ha ha ha. Sorry mate.

All I am saying is if a person of authority, a soldier representing his government and his country is, while under duress, just lashing out and doing low vengeful things, he cannot use "I was under duress" as an excuse and expect things to work out fine for him.

[haggis]

I'm not sure if i picked it up right but I think the bulletin on the radio mentioned the footage was leaked by News of the World. It seems that anything is OK to report on these days as long as it's gonna sell.

I remember hearing a propoganda phrase from the time of WW2, 'Careless talk costs lives', seems appropriate on this occasion too. They should be 100% behind our lads. Whether they should be there is another matter, but as long as they are don't go screwing it up shouting your mouth off.

I don't buy that. "My country right or wrong" These guys are acting on our behalf, in our name- we sent them there, we can't turn a blind eye to things they might do wrong just because they're "our boys".

Turning a blind eye achieves nothing- worse than that, it just means we're more likely to send them off into some other hellhole to get rocks or worse chucked at them. It's not being "behind the troops" to allow yourself to be ignorant of what they're being put through in our name. Maybe having a proper eyeful of the reality of the situation we've created will mean next time someone wants to send them off, we know what we're asking of them.

At the end of the day, are we not supposed to be the good guys? Joe made a reference to doing it the Israeli way... If we sink to that then we're ****ed.

Sorry I should have elaborated more.

I just think the press ought to think before they publish stuff like this. It's not just people in Iraq reading it. The London bombings were an indirect result of coverage here changing the mindset of guys who at one time were as benign as you and I. Having seen the footage I agree it's totally wrong to beat up what looks like young teenagers, but then again you're seeing kids of 10 on the news carrying Kalashnikovs so why should they not be considered a threat?

The whole Middle east thing is one big f*** up ,and maybe there is no way of resolving it - short of the complete decimation of one side. Who can tell? In historical timescales, it's not so very long since Europe was just as volatile.

[northwind]

I just think the press ought to think before they publish stuff like this. It's not just people in Iraq reading it. The London bombings were an indirect result of coverage here changing the mindset of guys who at one time were as benign as you and I. Having seen the footage I agree it's totally wrong to beat up what looks like young teenagers, but then again you're seeing kids of 10 on the news carrying Kalashnikovs so why should they not be considered a threat?

Sorry mate, misunderstood your position a little. Personally I'd say that these guys played completely into the hands of these extremists- giving those scumbags ammunition isn't what I'd call wise. But I think that to blame the press for reporting it is just wrong-headed, they don't make the situation, they just tell the story.

But then, I think I've overlaboured that point ;)

[Ed]

I think it would take restraint beyond the average person's to meet the standards that some on here expect.

[northwind]

Perhaps. But then again, we have thousands of troops in Iraq just now and not all of them are beating the crap out of teenagers.

Whatever I might think about the war, our troops have exceeded all expectations in Iraq... They've been absolutely magnificent. IMO it's a tragedy that the actions of a minority are going to overshadow that for the time being.

[philipMac]

I think it would take restraint beyond the average person's to meet the standards that some on here expect.

No. This is the military. You are dealing in absolutes. If you lose control of the men, allow this sort of action to go unpunished, if the direct chain of command stops working, you stop having an army, and start having a load of guys with guns.

Northwind is completely right... the vast majority of the guys out there do their job very well (and I am happy (and a bit proud) to be mates with a few of them) but, the fact that some guys cannot do the job, cannot be a good soldier... doesnt mean you can turn a blind eye to those few guys, and dirty all the men by implication.

In fairness, after what they have been through, they deserve better.

[rictus01]

Given I've served my time, done my bit for the Falklands, 4 tours of NI and such (OK over 20 years back now), and knowing the Army has dramatically changed since, the thing that strikes me most, isn't that this happened, but that it didn't happen more, these guys (& girl) were outstanding during the fighting (the job they are trained to do) but aren't policemen.

I've no doubt that pressure will be brought to bear to make examples out of the individuals involved, but can't help feeling they are doing a job beyond their training (lets not forget a good number of these guys wouldn't have much responsibility in civy street).

If the Army is to be used in this way (as it appears they are) perhaps greater training should be aimed at this (although it maybe already, for all I know).

Cheers Mark.

[Anonymous]

At the end of the day, are we not supposed to be the good guys? Joe made a reference to doing it the Israeli way... If we sink to that then we're ****ed.


It was Jelster who originally made the reference to doing it the Israeli way, i said what you said, to stoop that low is ridiculous.

[Jelster]

At the end of the day, are we not supposed to be the good guys? Joe made a reference to doing it the Israeli way... If we sink to that then we're ****ed.


It was Jelster who originally made the reference to doing it the Israeli way, i said what you said, to stoop that low is ridiculous.

Yes, 'tis true, and I meant it in a sarcastic way. But then the Israli's stand behind their forces 100%, they don't have much other option in their society, but that's another discussion....:-$

.

[northwind]

Aargh, I did it again... WHenever I see Jelster's avatatr I think it's Itchin2Go for some reason :oops: