View Full Version : Vid of Road Bike Crash
I saw this on an LB article. It shows it can happen to any of us & she is a racer in the US.
http://socalsportbikes.info/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=34948
Not a nice experience - its no wonder after accidents it can be so confusing. 101 people talking to you all at once.
Awesome bit of footage...glad she was okay though :shock: :shock:
jeeeysus...
not sure what IAM would say about that one, doesn't matter how good your observation is i dont think you'd have guessed that.
cool camera though.
k
The strange thing is, what actually happened? I mean why did the car brake like that and then turn though 180 degrees? That's just plain weird! :shock:
.
The strange thing is, what actually happened? I mean why did the car brake like that and then turn though 180 degrees? That's just plain weird! :shock:
.
From the stuff said in the forum posts, he seemed to speed up then the car stopped and he nearly went into the car but turned to the left while all wheels were locked up.
Aparently he claimed that he was stopped when she hit him. But the police just lauged when the saw her vid as that was proof that it was his fault & not hers..
Looks like an old car without ABS.
Balky001
14-02-06, 09:09 PM
you just can't odds that happening can you
The Basket
14-02-06, 09:24 PM
Cor Blimey!!!!
That was an awful one...talk about getting stuffed like a turkey. No where to go and no way to avoid and nothing u can do
Peter Henry
14-02-06, 09:28 PM
I saw that on Visor Down a few days ago. Very disturbing isn't it? I wonder if the police considered raising the charges against the driver who was obviously a lying bas*ard also?
Where do you get he turned to the left? All I can see is the front of the car spin out to the right?
That had to be poor brakes at the front or tyres in dreadfull condition as the road looks perfectly dry.
What was horrible was watching the rider's escape route growing ever smaller until the inevitable impact. :shock:
So glad she got of lightly. :?
Balky001
14-02-06, 09:32 PM
What was horrible was watching the rider's escape route growing ever smaller until the unavaoidable impact. :shock:
I think that was the most worrying thing. There must come a point where you might want to hit the car square on and go over the bonnet - watching the vid in slow motion the gap narrows I thought she was bound to have here left leg crushed by the impact. But I know I would have done the same as her, go for the gap and hope
Carsick
14-02-06, 09:49 PM
The car driver was not paying enough attention and realised very late that he was going to go into the back of the white one. He braked hard and tried to swerve. Mistake. He ended up in the middle lane and the biker couldn't avoid them by that point. In fact, they couldn't avoid them by the time the car left it's own lane.
If the biker had reacted at the moment when the car was obviously getting too close then they'd have been ok. If they'd reacted when they first eased off the throttle (heard in the video as the engine levels off and dips slightly) then they might have made it.
I'm not saying I'd have avoided by any stretch of the imagination, but that was entirely avoidable.
There was a moment where I believe I would have spotted the problem and reacted, as I have done on motorways more than a few times (though admittedly, nobody has yet spun like that in front of me)
ivantate
14-02-06, 09:53 PM
Wow........
Think Bike!!
more like dont trust any driver, anywhere.
Peter Henry
14-02-06, 09:55 PM
Carsick...You are talking complete ball*cks my friend. You have the benefit of watching a video over and over again. She had about 2 seconds to react.Jesus talk about second guessing after the event!
Like I guess you practise your "avoiding the car piroueting toward me from another lane" drill all the time!
That really has to be be the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time.
Dont mean to be so harsh but really,come on! :shock: :?
scooby2102
14-02-06, 10:22 PM
Well, just watched the vid about half a dozen times and there is absolutely NO way IMHO that that could have been avoided
Reference the car getting too close to the white one in front, honestly dont think there was ever a danger of a rear ender and any reasonable driver, again in my view, would not have panicked when braking
That car driver should be made take extensive / intensive driving lessons before getting back behind the wheel again, an absolute total kak handed braking manouver, @sshole
Glad the rider is ok
Quiff Wichard
14-02-06, 10:36 PM
great boobs on the first attendee that bends over to assist...
i have watched it 10000 times now and not seen the accident yet
great boobs on the first attendee that bends over to assist...
i have watched it 10000 times now and not seen the accident yet
:stupid:
Thought it was just me!
Peter Henry
14-02-06, 11:03 PM
There was an accident? :shock:
Where were those lovely airbags when the crash was in progress? I mean you wait all day then two come along at once.
Peter Henry
14-02-06, 11:08 PM
Imagine if the poor victim had been a bloke? On first opening your eyes after the crash...you would be thinking that you had died and arrived in heaven! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Carsick
15-02-06, 12:25 AM
Carsick...You are talking complete ball*cks my friend. You have the benefit of watching a video over and over again. She had about 2 seconds to react.Jesus talk about second guessing after the event!
Like I guess you practise your "avoiding the car piroueting toward me from another lane" drill all the time!
That really has to be be the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time.
Dont mean to be so harsh but really,come on! :shock: :?
The car driver was not paying enough attention and realised very late that he was going to go into the back of the white one. He braked hard and tried to swerve. Mistake. He ended up in the middle lane and the biker couldn't avoid them by that point. In fact, they couldn't avoid them by the time the car left it's own lane.
If the biker had reacted at the moment when the car was obviously getting too close then they'd have been ok. If they'd reacted when they first eased off the throttle (heard in the video as the engine levels off and dips slightly) then they might have made it.
I'm not saying I'd have avoided by any stretch of the imagination, but that was entirely avoidable.
There was a moment where I believe I would have spotted the problem and reacted, as I have done on motorways more than a few times (though admittedly, nobody has yet spun like that in front of me)
See what I did there?
I believe I pointed out what had gone wrong (the obvious) and then suggested what she could have done about it. While doing so I made a mild comment that I would have reacted. If you refer to roughly one sentence before that I believe I said
"I'm not saying I'd have avoided by any stretch of the imagination"
I know that's an ambiguous statement, but I'll explain.
I was suggesting that I believe it to be a rather unlikely event that I would personally have avoided an accident.
Later in my post I said that I have experienced many times people doing very similar things,up to, and including the smoking tyres and the swerving into my lane (the swerving they've done, the spinning I'm yet to see)
I do have the benefit of the video, as does the rider, and in a post in the forum she has also suggested that she could have avoided it.
There were signs, that is a fact that can't be denied.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 07:16 AM
Carsick the arrogant Knob.
The lady wrote:
I'm just upset that I didn't avoid this crash. Watch the very beginning of the vid - you see me going along and I was going to pass him. Then Very uncharacteristic of me, I back off. Why'd I back off? I had a sudden bad feeling. I'm upset I couldn't avoid the crash...
Thank you. I tried to get out of the way. I was in the #1 lane - moved into the #2 lane - got cornered between that stupid car in the #2 lane who never knew she was in danger and the stupid car losing control.
Our lady appears to be a very well experienced rider yet even she casts doubt on her own action or inaction in the couple of seconds from the car braking....up to impact. She says that she thought about the situation too much. I strongly believe that she is being extremely harsh on herself. Why is that?
1. She had no real idea as to the route the out of control car was going to take.
2.She might have been entertaining the thought that she might get lucky and slip by him to her left.
3.The car might grind to a halt well away from her allowing her to do an emergency stop.
But maybe what we are forgetting here is that she is riding along a highway. We do not see what else is coming up right behind her,nor in the left hand "car pool lane". Therefore very likely other avoidance routes where not possible. As she mentions the car to her right was actually ensuring that her only real hope of missing the crazed car,was going to diminish by the metre.
We have all had near misses,but our luck in our own situations should not bring us to incorrectly suggest that another person led to their own down fall,especially when our voice is the only one heard in such a vein and every other motorcyclist viewing the video,has nothing but sympathy for the poor girl and the circumstances....."There but for the grace of God etc?"
But perhaps your knowledge and experience is on another plane than the rest of us.
*In order to justify e.d's suggestion that I am self opinionated.*
I am happy to state quite strongly that your suggestion on this Michael is flawed and indeed in bad taste. :wink:
I wonder how you would like us to comment should,(heaven forbid in truth) you are ever pulled out on by a car and you ram straight in to the side of it? Of course we would have to explain the error of yours ways in similar fashion won't we?
I have had that experience and believe me it is not nice and although I knew what was going to happen, I also had slim chance of avoiding the impact.
454697819
15-02-06, 07:46 AM
nasty,,, but i can agree with carsicks comments, if ever i see a car on the either lane speed up like that particularaly when there is heavy traffic i always just roll off a little..
still glad she was ok and again i would have never predicted the car spinning.. that is new one on me to.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 07:50 AM
Numbers....I agree with you there entirely. But what might she have done to avoid the collision?
The girl states in her comments that she was going to pass the Honda earlier but something made her back off.Maybe his previous erratic driving? I don't know.
If some one can give me a cast iron explanation as to how she could have escaped that impact,I will firstly apologise to Carsick and secondly totally view my own approach when out on the roads. :?
Sid Squid
15-02-06, 08:12 AM
It's not an easy one to see shaping up it's true, but I think Michael has a point, the very first time I saw the vid - with no idea as to what accident was about to occur*, not exactly a poor situtation is it? - when the black car gets on the throttle I was already mentally backing off, having watched again - several times - I still have a strong backing off reflex, perhaps it's just that I've spent a lot of time riding in town, and this is not an unusual situation in traffic queues, although traffic changes lanes in a more controlled but just as careless way usually.
Just experience, and that's often something you get just after you need it sadly.
*Except thinking that the possibility was the car on the right moving left into 'our' path as the traffic there closes too.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 08:18 AM
Sid...I hear what your saying there. however not quite cast iron enough to prompt mentioned apology! :wink: :D
Sid Squid
15-02-06, 08:32 AM
Not what I was trying to elicit Peter. :lol:
Just to say that there are a few clues for the experienced to see, consciously or not. As I wrote, just running into the traffic line in that situation with cars around me I'm already very defensive, particularly as the gap in front of me isn't getting tight it's a guaranteed magnet for the impatient in the lanes either side.
Of course the mechanism by which knob-head gets his motor into the lane in front of the poor unfortunate in the vid is decidedly unexpected, that someone might jump in there, however, wasn't.
Quiff Wichard
15-02-06, 11:07 AM
hey now hey nowwwwww !! ....
calm down dalm down!!..
Pete- remember, you have been riding longer than carsick and when you started there weren't any cars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
so carsick has had car experience from the get go..!
oo get go- I have gone all american..I will be shootin me mates next!
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 11:13 AM
Quiff....It is indeed a valid comment that you make. I shall therefore bow out! :wink:
Carsick
15-02-06, 11:36 AM
I did have a long reply typed up but then I hit the wrong button and closed the browser.
I won't retype it but I'll just give a quick summary.
1. She could have reacte before the car became out of control. I believe she could not have avoided an accident once the car started to skid.
2. Since when did luck come into a proper plan? I might end up hoping that luck will save me, but only when I've messed up (happens to me alot , but I'm not an "experienced rider")
3. I'm not quite sure how's that's relevent. Are you suggesting she was hoping it would stop further away? It didn't stop further away and even if the car hadn't spun and had simply swerved into her lane and continued moving, she would probably have still rear-ended it.
Have I offended you or the rider with my poor taste comments on how a non-serious accident could have been avoided?
I'd hope like hell that if I filmed a similar accident I would be told what I could have done and maybe that would make me a better rider. I sure as hell need the help.
I honestly don't understand your opposition to this point of view. I'm only expressing a similar opinion to Sid and you've admitted that he has a point.
I'm not looking for an apology. I don't care if you apologise and you can say I talk ******** all you like.
Halonic
15-02-06, 11:53 AM
ok can we focus on the important things here:
The **** driver, the ridiculous accident that could have been avoided if the driver were not a ****, the thankful escape of the rider and the quality clevage captured on tape for posterity.
focus people :roll:
21QUEST
15-02-06, 11:59 AM
I did have a long reply typed up but then I hit the wrong button and closed the browser.
I won't retype it but I'll just give a quick summary.
1. She could have reacte before the car became out of control. I believe she could not have avoided an accident once the car started to skid.2. Since when did luck come into a proper plan? I might end up hoping that luck will save me, but only when I've messed up (happens to me alot , but I'm not an "experienced rider")
3. I'm not quite sure how's that's relevent. Are you suggesting she was hoping it would stop further away? It didn't stop further away and even if the car hadn't spun and had simply swerved into her lane and continued moving, she would probably have still rear-ended it.
Have I offended you or the rider with my poor taste comments on how a non-serious accident could have been avoided?
I'd hope like hell that if I filmed a similar accident I would be told what I could have done and maybe that would make me a better rider. I sure as hell need the help.
I honestly don't understand your opposition to this point of view. I'm only expressing a similar opinion to Sid and you've admitted that he has a point.
I'm not looking for an apology. I don't care if you apologise and you can say I talk ******** all you like.
Nasty situation and glad she got off without serious harm.
I have to say I agree with almost all you have said but disagree with the highlighted bit. IMO at that point it was still avoidable. Cast iron proof later :lol: :wink:
Cheers
Ben
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 12:18 PM
Ben...You are indeed a considerate chap to humour me in such a manner! :) :)
Warthog
15-02-06, 01:56 PM
The first time I watched it, as with other people comments here, I was thinking something from the right was going to happen, I totally didn't see or expect the 180 from the left. Judging by my first play of the video, I doubt I would have avoided that either, it is so totally unexpected. However now that I have played it 100 times, I reckon I could have avoided it. But the key thing here is that poor girl had to react the first time, with no prior knowledge of what was going to happen.
I think it would have taken anybody out.
Halonic
15-02-06, 02:19 PM
I think it would have taken anybody out.
Indeed, for future referance, had that been me on her bike, I would have crashed even more impressively, perhaps a driver door, mid-air pirouette, face first into the tarmac manoeuvre.
I think it would have taken anybody out.
That I'm not convinced of. Certainly very experienced riders that I know (Rictus, Sid Squid) might well have avoided it as they would have observed the speed that the car was catching up the white car and planned accordingly. This does of course take into account that a certain "sixth sense" or extremely heightened sense of awareness exists with the rider, and it's something that only thousands and thousands of miles of road experience will give you, and only then if you're naturally atuned in that way.
Remember that what we see on the video distorts the picture a little as we're not seeing it quite as the human eye would have done and therefore in reality it would have appeared a little different.
I probably would have stuffed it too, though would like to think differently :lol: .
.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 02:56 PM
Jonboy....Again I accept your considered comments,but even with my own (28years...ouch!) I really don't see how it could have actually been avoided? Other than her slamming on before he even braked on a pure impulse? That in itself could have seen her walloped from behind?
But then again...maybe something Supermotard-ish with high bars that offer more leaverage could have seen a back wheel slide which might possibly have reduced the impact? I really don't know........ :?
Flamin_Squirrel
15-02-06, 03:30 PM
Possibly could have escaped to the left of the car, but that option doesnt open until very late. Could have slammed on the anchors earlier if by some miracle you'd be that paranoid... no garuntee that would have worked either.
I think a certain amount of luck would be required either way.
I think we have to remember, the camera she was using was a bullet style, the do distort the image quite a bit. As was already said, what we see will have been quite diffrent to what she sees.
Jonboy....Again I accept your considered comments,but even with my own (28years...ouch!) I really don't see how it could have actually been avoided? Other than her slamming on before he even braked on a pure impulse? That in itself could have seen her walloped from behind?
But then again...maybe something Supermotard-ish with high bars that offer more leaverage could have seen a back wheel slide which might possibly have reduced the impact? I really don't know........ :?
Nah, front brake on, then off, a big dollop of throttle and bunny-hop straight over the top :lol: .
.
Warthog
15-02-06, 06:16 PM
You could probably work out whether she could have stopped by looking at the speed and braking distance. Now I wouldn't necesarily slam on the brakes as that other car started breaking, only when you see its wheels start lock up (you can't just brake when any old car brakes next to you!). From then on (as someone commented) its about 2 seconds to the crash, and going at 40 or 50 (she reckoned in her subsequent post), does that work out as possible? ( I can't be @rsed to work it out hehe).
Also, I don't personally reckon that that black car WAS that close to the car in front, I don't see them as definitely colliding, and therefore it wouldn't make me as wary.
maybe the guy who lost control actually lost control because he wasn't concentrating on what was happening with the car in front...titting around with radio, phone etc.
looks like the white car slowed in plenty off time and the tit slammed his anchors on at last minute, didn't want to damage his precious car and swerved to right....unfortunately where the bike was.
i agree she didnt have a lot of time to react to situation and escape route was virtually non exsistent at that point. but, if you had traffic around you as in this situation, wouldn't you plan ahead and have got your speed well down before hand. always thinking WHAT IF.
amarko5
15-02-06, 07:06 PM
unless anyone is psycic, and can see what other hazzards are in the left lane. I feel she or anyone else would not have avoided that scenario. it's a one off and unfortunate that the route to her right was blocked by the other car.
only way to avoid that one would be driving along at granny pace like 15 to 20 mph , than again probably annoying other road users into fits of rage :lol: :wink:
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 07:11 PM
Mal..But how could your plan ahead theory really work in real terms? The situation was not an open country road empty of all other traffic.How would people go about it on the busy motorway network of the Uk for example? Obviously your suggestion would have to instantly require the ceasing of any manner of filtering for example.
The reason I say that is if anything out of the ordinary should happen when we are filtering,I suggest that in so many cases, for a biker it would be very difficult to avoid a hit. There have been plenty of such situations told by members of the forum. :wink:
Professor
15-02-06, 07:13 PM
Just seen the vid. Jesus Christ! :shock:
Don't think she could have done a lot to avoid the accident. There
was a brief moment when the offending car started accelerating and
maybe a very observant biker would have become extra vigilant but I
certainly would not have paid that much attention. It seemed that
the car wasn't doing anything particularly dangerous. Don't
understand why the driver hit the brakes.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 07:18 PM
Professor....if the Police do a check on his mobile records I bet they would find the answer! In fact it definitely looks like he presses to maybe end a call as he steps from the car.If not there was certainly something that he was more interested in than his driving skills.He was obviously very distracted.Not paying attention at all for him to react in such a dangerous manner. to those of us who were following the traffic flow, I am sure most of us would say that there was no real danger in front of him at all. It simply appeared that way as he switched his attention back to the road. :evil:
7.20pm UK time...I have just watched the video again...no way could she know that was going to happen nor could she avoid it!
The Basket
15-02-06, 08:31 PM
I agree with the man.
This was a one off smash and nobody could have forseen it. Just bad driving.
Although the femme was going a rate of knots though.
To be honest, most on this forum would have been eating Honda and that is that.
Another prob is the second car, the silver one which I think is also a Honda. Blocks the escape going right. Just bad luck.
Just the wrong place at the right time.
at least people stop and help.. my other half had a small 'off' last week and she said everyone just stood there gawping at her like it was entertainment.. not one person stopped to help even though she was underneath the bike! (no damage done/no injuries)
i think it would be very difficult for any reasonable and competent rider to have avoided that, maybe the highly advanced would have.. just not enough visual clues until it was too late (although i do think she was travelling too quickly considering the build up of vehicles)
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 10:40 PM
Gnan...That is terrible! :shock: Is it a culture thing do you think? I have come across too many accidents here and have to say not only fellow bikers stop,(as you would expect) but car drivers are usually lending a hand also? 8)
Mal..But how could your plan ahead theory really work in real terms? The situation was not an open country road empty of all other traffic.How would people go about it on the busy motorway network of the Uk for example? Obviously your suggestion would have to instantly require the ceasing of any manner of filtering for example.
The reason I say that is if anything out of the ordinary should happen when we are filtering,I suggest that in so many cases, for a biker it would be very difficult to avoid a hit. There have been plenty of such situations told by members of the forum. :wink:
mmmmmm :?
glad she lived to ride another day. still scary to watch.
Certainly very experienced riders that I know (Rictus, Sid Squid) might well have avoided it as they would have observed the speed that the car was catching up the white car and planned accordingly... .
I probably would have stuffed it too, though would like to think differently :lol: .
What a nightmare scenario to find yourself - felt really sorry for her.
However, I will nominate myself as somone who would have definitely managed to avoid this crash. I would have been 3 miles further back down the road on account of my somewhat 'ambling' riding speeds. :D
Right, must set off for Soho now... got less than 48 hours to get there. And it's 7 miles away... :shock:
Gnan...That is terrible! :shock: quite agree. gnan, hope other half is ok.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 10:45 PM
Mal..A point no-one has mentioned thus far is that the car not only crossed right across her path,but the extent of the spin had it moving back toward her also. :shock:
Mal..A point no-one has mentioned thus far is that the car not only crossed right across her path,but the extent of the spin had it moving back toward her also. :shock:
that's what makes me think the lass on the bike was travelling too fast, a car just doesn't skid round in dry conditions like that and maintain negative momentum at low speeds (which in that traffic would have been more appropriate)
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 10:53 PM
Gnan...Take another look at the clip..she was barely at the same speed as the car inside her? Hardly speeding to my mind. Plus remove the fact that an incident was to happen,observe her road speed,are you telling me that was excessive? :?
*Jeez I know at times it must seem like I am defending the virginity of my own sister here!*
Carsick
15-02-06, 10:57 PM
Whatever the actual speed, she did seem in a rush to be boxed in by all those cars. I hate being in that position and Sid has suggested he does as well.
pete, gnan (Car moving towards her) i totally agree with you guys on that one but i was just trying to point out she could have put herself in a safer situation by slowing her speed in this kind of scenario.
you can never stop an accident from happening but you can try an reduce the consequences with a little forthort (think thats the right word). not to say it will always work but you never leave it to chance.
Carsick
15-02-06, 10:58 PM
forthort (think thats the right word).
Forethought.
forthort (think thats the right word).
Forethought. :) believe me, i am no way defending the car driver......at all. just pointing out that this is the kind of sh** we have to try and be aware of possibly happening every time we go out on the road unfortunately.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 11:03 PM
Carsick wrote:
Whatever the actual speed, she did seem in a rush to be boxed in by all those cars.
Well you have truly surpassed yourself there! You have had all day to monitor this thread and you can't help yourself from coming up with yet another snide and holier than thou comment? Is this a gift you were born with or have you had training.
Freeze any moment in time when we are out in traffic and someone like you could come along and say ,"oh you are boxed in here!" That is the real world what is the matter with you? It is not a situation any biker likes to be in as we are always the most vulnerable......but that is life out on the road.
FFS get real man.Is all of your riding done on PS2 or what?
I will take my inattentive self off now if that is ok, the reason being I was thinking of taking my bike for a run tomorrow,best do it now before there is any other traffic out on the road! :-#
You dropped your little scatter grenade and then left sharpish tonight. A shame,despite how it may seem your twisted logic does not make me annoyed but simply exasperates me. 8)
Carsick
15-02-06, 11:06 PM
Yes, very constructive.
amarko5
15-02-06, 11:06 PM
another fact i think a lot of people are missing here
they drive on the oposite side to us.
unavoidable plain and simple
damn unlucky whatever :lol:
just glad she is ok and can show the video as a reminder and not an abituary
peter, come back bro, i still love ya :D :D . thing is, she was bloody unlucky but lived to ride another day yeah. look and learn.
Gnan...Take another look at the clip..she was barely at the same speed as the car inside her? Hardly speeding to my mind. Plus remove the fact that an incident was to happen,observe her road speed,are you telling me that was excessive? :?
*Jeez I know at times it must seem like I am defending the virginity of my own sister here!*
difficult to say for sure because the camera distorts it.. there is a difference between excessive speeding (speed over the speed limit) and speed that is not sensible but may be under the limit! i think the latter is the case, but still very tough to call for sure..
i'm not saying it was her fault at all, it blatantly wasn't.. but maybe she could have gotten out of it with a bit more concentration and subsequent speed reduction? it would be interesting to see the accident investigator viewpoint or from those who have had advanced training like ROSPA/IAM/Police etc.
Carsick
15-02-06, 11:16 PM
You dropped your little scatter grenade and then left sharpish tonight. A shame,despite how it may seem your twisted logic does not make me annoyed but simply exasperates me. 8)
I didn't go anywhere.
Exasperated or annoyed, you seem more keen on making personal remarks than actually refuting my argument.
Ok, you disagree with me, hardly cause for histrionics.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't make personal remarks about me. If you really disagree with me so vehemently, then why aren't you making these remarks about the others who have agreed with my points?
At no point did I say the accident was the riders fault. Nor did I say that I would/could have avoided it. I have merely stated that I believe the accident to have been avoidable. I've based that on what I can see in the video, since that's all the evidence I have available.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 11:17 PM
mal..ok bro!
Carsick wrote:
Yes, very constructive.
But Michael you are not at all are you in essence? Well over 90% of people that have commented on both this forum and the southern california one, acknowledge that she simply was dealt a bad hand. But you appear determined not to even consider that?
I am quite happy to state that I think that given that exact same situation I would have got walloped also. Under braking you are extremely limited as to the steering input that you can apply and so frankly she had no chance.
The thought that her crystal ball should have warned her that she needed to be wary of a tall, dark, Honda Civic driver 3 days in advance...simply does not wash.
I only hope that your theories work to your advantage some time and avoid you suffering a similar fate to that poor lass. 8)
i actually agree with Carsick !! it wasn't her fault but based on the evidence in the video of the relatively high speeds it could have been avoided as she left herself no escape route by riding almost parallel with the car in the right lane... i suppose these are things that the best riders think of (not me!)
21QUEST
15-02-06, 11:27 PM
I wonder how you would like us to comment should,(heaven forbid in truth) you are ever pulled out on by a car and you ram straight in to the side of it? Of course we would have to explain the error of yours ways in similar fashion won't we?
Peter , that is a very good question. I do think sometimes we don't spend enough time on if/how an accident could/may have been avoided precisely because of fear of the quote below.
......your suggestion on this Michael is flawed and indeed in bad taste. :wink:
(not having a go by the way)
I know it's not an easy thing to do especially if it's someone you know but IMHO it can actually can be helpful for the person involved as well as other riders to analyse the accident to see if one could have done anything different.
Anyways , hope in the mist of the discussion folks have learnt something. This for example
Just to say that there are a few clues for the experienced to see, consciously or not. As I wrote, just running into the traffic line in that situation with cars around me I'm already very defensive, particularly as the gap in front of me isn't getting tight it's a guaranteed magnet for the impatient in the lanes either side.
Now about being quite possibly avoidable , having watched it a number of times I would still say up to the point just prior to the car starting to get out of shape most would now say that the were bad signs which were ignored. The rider herself says so. When we fail to heed bad signs(I've certainly been guilty of that) then you have more or less just rolled the dice.
Normally if I have a bad feeing about a car but for one reason or another fail to fully heed the warnings , I'll be keeping a close eye on it till I'm past it.
At approximately 51-52 sec you can see the car is catching up with the car in front of it just that little bit too quick so I'm backing off the throttle(and taking stock of what's around me). Why ? I'll be half expecting him to do something silly so I like to check what my options are.
At 53.5 secs you'll see the car just starting to get out of shape and at the point because I'm watching him I'll be completely off the throttle. She does not seem to 'back of' the throttle till about a sec later(losing precious time). She chose to go for a gap which was closing all the time having lost time not breaking early and hard enough. Personally I'm confident I would have slowed down suffuciently enough to avoid the car either by stopping completely before contact or having pretty much come to a stop be able to swerve without much drama.
How does one put this 'It does not sound like plenty of time but it is plenty enough if one is on the case' She just made the wrong choices in a situation other choices would have be better.
Oh... and rear wheel slide you mentioned I've used that myself a few times as a way of avoidng object or people :roll: I'll rather not come in contact with.
Cheers
Ben
ps:There are better/faster riders than me for sure but to be honest my road survival skills are better than a lot of people.The simple reason being I've had a some experience of honing particular set of skills(under pressure sometimes I may add) being a courier(all be it not a proper one :lol: ). Situations where a lot of people though good riders would panick I tend not to.
peter......heavy mate, positive feedback :?
as suggested, still think he was using phone, radio or something to react so abruptly.
Peter Henry
15-02-06, 11:28 PM
Ben...great post mate.Some interesting points made there. :wink:
Well gnan..the lady in question has 50'000 miles on that R1 of hers and she also races too. So her experience and knowledge not enough for you? If your thinking is correct and aligns with Carsick then we must never ride with another vehicle at our side? So what do we do constantly hammer simply to advance to a position where no other vehicle is anywhere near us? Let's see that work in practice!
Again too fast? You only say that with the knowledge that she did eventually have a fall.If that was just a video of a rideout you would have fast forwarded right past that bit.
Maybe my ignorance is drawn from the fact that unlike yourselves I did not pass through CBT or DAS training and understandably my riding knowledge would be somewhat suspect. :wink:
Carsick
15-02-06, 11:28 PM
I believed I was being fairly constructive. I suggested what might have gone wrong with the car, then I suggested a point where it seemed to me that it could have been avoided. You've done nothing but abuse me personally and very little to argue against my specific opinion.
Ok, 90% disagree with me, like I said, though, does that mean I should shut up? Two people whom I know and respect have voiced some level of agreement. The rest I have little to no knowledge of.
I have no doubt that I would have suffered the same fate as her. Does that make any difference? I would probably have allowed myself to get boxed in as well. Does that make any difference?
How I would have dealt with the situation if I were in her shoes isn't relevent to what I was saying. We have the benefit of this video. Why not try to extract as much useful information as possible from it?
Saying that there was nothing she could do doesn't gain anything other than give everybody a nice warm feeling that they're being sympathetic to what happened to her.
If I have an accident and I could have avoided it, I'll be damn ****ed off if my friends don't point that out to me.
i disagree with you Peter! have you seen the video of shane byrne and friends testing the TL-1000S, Ducati 916, and the VTR-1000 where one of the guys crashes at the end.. you could argue these guys are the creme de la creme of motorcycle riders, they are racers who also do tens of thousands of road miles a year... yet they still crashed because they failed to apply that knowledge to the situation in hand
Peter Henry
16-02-06, 06:50 AM
Gnan..To bring the comparison of the Fastbikes boys in France to this situation has no relevance what so ever. They were using their skill and experience in a totally different..some might say irresponsible manner. A little different than what this young lady was doing I suggest.
However it would appear that unless you are known personally or are lucky enough to have the respect(! :? ) of Carsick then your view has no relevance at all? Which it would seem are the majority that have aired their view here.
I am tired of going around in circles, a couple suggest that was avoidable? Hmmm, with the benefit of hindsight and analysis...I can see where they are coming from. But based on actual experience and an understanding of real world situations.I remain adamant that no-one placed in her position would have escaped that crash.
Please carry on...... :wink:
p.s to Carsick,I accept the views of those I do not know as well as those people that I do. There have been vastly experienced riders passing comment to me,indicating their own agreement with me. Perhaps this is just one of those situations where a difference of opinion will have to prevail.
However largely speaking I tend to pay greater attention to those people who I know have many years riding experience.(As you rightly should do with comments passed by Sid)
Flamin_Squirrel
16-02-06, 07:43 AM
p.s to Carsick,I accept the views of those I do not know as well as those people that I do.
Pah, no you dont!
Peter Henry
16-02-06, 07:59 AM
Jordan..If you have no better contribution than that last school pantomine effort I suggest maybe you keep schtum.
Read back through the thread there are many that I do not know at all whose opinion on this issue I accept. There are others that I accept although obviously I do not agree with.
Not has anyione to argue with for a while Jordan? :wink:
Carsick
16-02-06, 08:53 AM
Peter, you've accepted the points raised by several others on the same themes as me yet you persist in making barbed comments directed at me alone.
I accepted that you don't believe it was avoidable, why can't you just accept that I believe it was and move on?
Flamin_Squirrel
16-02-06, 08:59 AM
Ok, a more sensible post.
I happen to agree with you in this situation - I think to your average mortal that accident was unavoidable. However I've only been riding a couple of years and dont have the experience alot of people here have so my opinion isnt important.
What I can say is that there isnt a right answer to the question, so all thats left is forming an argument stonger than your 'opposition'. This isnt the first time you've failed to do this, nor the first time you've thrown the toys out of the pram because of it.
My take on this situation is thus. I don't think that guy in the civic was paying attention fully while he's driving along, perhaps due to him being on the phone or fiddling with the stereo or something. He's then looked up, seen that the car in front of him has braked, paniced and slammed all on and slid into the path of the biker.
At no point to me does there look to be anything particularly unusual going on, if you hadn't known there was a crash coming up how many people can honestly say they expected the civic to swerve like it does? Let's not kid ourselves into thinking we can expect everything and anything to happen, freak incidents like this to me show that you can expect most things but not everything.
As I watch the clip, personally the fact that the right hand side lanes are slowing down would have given me more cause for concern that someone would be looking to quickly nip into the lane the biker is in to try and cut out some traffic as I'm sure many of us have seen on numourous occasions.
With that in mind, I'm pretty certain that my reactions would have been exactly the same in that situation.
IMO totally unavoidable, but lucky not to have been badly injured. Hindsight is a great thing when we're all looking at a video, but you can't pause real life and rewind.
Just to say that there are a few clues for the experienced to see, consciously or not. As I wrote, just running into the traffic line in that situation with cars around me I'm already very defensive, particularly as the gap in front of me isn't getting tight it's a guaranteed magnet for the impatient in the lanes either side.
plan ahead.
Peter Henry
16-02-06, 07:22 PM
Jordan the fountain of knowledge wrote:
This isnt the first time you've failed to do this, nor the first time you've thrown the toys out of the pram because of it.
Do not judge others by your own antics BOY! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Flamin_Squirrel
16-02-06, 07:23 PM
Jordan the fountain of knowledge wrote:
This isnt the first time you've failed to do this, nor the first time you've thrown the toys out of the pram because of it.
Do not judge others by your own antics BOY! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Really? Please give an example. I've certainly not resorted to your petty name calling.
Peter Henry
16-02-06, 07:36 PM
Jordan..The person you seek now spends her time on Visor Down. Much as it might add value to your life,playing forum tennis with you has little attraction for me.
Move on........
Flamin_Squirrel
16-02-06, 07:42 PM
Jordan..The person you seek now spends her time on Visor Down. Much as it might add value to your life,playing forum tennis with you has little attraction for me.
Move on........
Pot, kettle.
As much as you think I enjoy arguing, I actualy dont. I enjoy a battle of reason and wits, not slagging matches. Since the last two times we've been engaged in discussion you've resorted to name calling, I can only assume you're incapable of rational debate, as was Lyn.
Peter Henry
16-02-06, 07:44 PM
Squirrel...Of course you are totally correct! Does that arouse you me saying that? :wink:
Warthog
16-02-06, 08:35 PM
Speaking as a person no-one knows and therefore running the risk of being totally ignored ( :( :lol: )... a lot of people have said its good to see the viedo to learn from it. So lets be honest here; who is going to change their riding style and what are they going to do thanks to this video?
Biker Biggles
16-02-06, 09:01 PM
I'm going to avoid riding a bike in America where driving standards are even worse than here. :twisted:
Caddy2000
16-02-06, 09:40 PM
Any ROSPA Gold riders here?
Class 1 Riders?
Perhaps they could make a comment on the odds of avoiding that car......
.... either that or if Carol Vodaphone would like to run us off some stats
It does seem a bit pointless saying whether it was avoidable or not, it has happened, and unless we have practised avoiding that situation thousands of times then we would all have done what she did:
Spot the gap, try for the gap, hit the breaks
Do you know that it takes the body 10,000 repetitions to memorise how to do something well without thinking about it (signing your name, bowling in a cricket match etc). To be put in a situation where a car does a 90+ degree turn in a multiple lane carridgeway blocking 2 lanes..... We would all have crashed, she didn't die - THAT'S THE POINT!!!!
It is slightly sick the fact that we have all watched that video, seen a fellow bike get T-boned, and then think "Weeeeeeelll, if she had done this or that"
IMO.....
Carsick
16-02-06, 09:49 PM
I agree with both you and Warthog. It's unlikely that any of us are going to change our riding because of it.
As for it being a bit sick to discuss it. This is a forum for discussion and the rider herself put the video online and made every effort for it to be available to as many people as possible.
If you're suggesting it's sick because nobody is thinking of the rider, then I believe you are wrong (and I assume most of your comment is directed at me in this) because I have thought of the rider and I have tried to empathise with her situation, so my comments were not based on some assumption that it's her fault or that I could have done better, just an observation on a biking forum about a situation a biker found herself in.
I'm not a person who sees the point in expressing my sympathy for somebody online in a forum where the probability is that the person it's directed at will never see it. That seems a little sick to me, since the only people who know you're feeling sorry for her are the others here.
Anonymous
16-02-06, 09:50 PM
To be put in a situation where a car does a 90+ degree turn in a multiple lane carridgeway blocking 2 lanes..... We would all have crashed, she didn't die - THAT'S THE POINT!!!!
IMO.....
My O too. (All reckoning they could have easily avoided it, please put your name down to be considered as next Pope. I understand that he is infallible....the rest of us are just human)
Carsick
16-02-06, 09:54 PM
To be put in a situation where a car does a 90+ degree turn in a multiple lane carridgeway blocking 2 lanes..... We would all have crashed, she didn't die - THAT'S THE POINT!!!!
IMO.....
My O too. (All reckoning they could have easily avoided it, please put your name down to be considered as next Pope. I understand that he is infallible....the rest of us are just human)
That comment is definitely below you. You know as well as I do that nobody said that they could have avoided it, muchless easily avoided it.
Anonymous
16-02-06, 10:06 PM
If the biker had reacted at the moment when the car was obviously getting too close then they'd have been ok.......
...........I'm not saying I'd have avoided by any stretch of the imagination, but that was entirely avoidable............there was a moment where I believe I would have spotted the problem and reacted, as I have done on motorways more than a few times (though admittedly, nobody has yet spun like that in front of me)
Sorry Carsick! No offence meant mate! I probably just misunderstood what you wrote. :oops: :oops: You probably explained all that later. I must admit I didn't read all the threads fully. My apologies.
Carsick
16-02-06, 10:08 PM
I still didn't say I would have avoided it.
No matter, anyway, I'm sure I explained later in the thread, which you can read at your leisure, no worries.
amarko5
16-02-06, 10:09 PM
http://www.smoothcurvesracing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=304
Dawn's Faq on the whole thing i suspect that a few would like to go read what she felt and saw
BTW you have to register on her site :lol:
amarko5
16-02-06, 10:32 PM
just a little clip of some of it
>>>>>>
Premonition. Yes. Agreed.
In the 200,000+ miles on bikes - 2 cars got me. I avoided soooo many more "close calls" by relying on my premonitions/feelings, skills, experience. I can read traffic quite well, I can read cars quite well. I always pride myself on being able to tell that a car is going to change lanes and then watch 2 seconds later, their turn signal come on and they move over. I had this same premonition that day - hence the rolling off the throttle before anything even happened. But you're right - I didn't know the source. This confused me a little. But as you look at the vid, everything seemed just fine. It did help me with my reaction time though because it put me on full alert. Premonition may have bought me precious milliseconds that I could use to react rather than get plowed into at full speed from the left side if I had continued my original course. Premonition is a very valuable asset...now I need to know how to get the upgraded version and get the additional data of what exactly was going to happen next. Nothing that I read in that Honda told me it was going to swerve across 2 other lanes and turn into me. If someone else was able to predict that...please let me know how.
When people ask where I think I erred. I tell them, I erred in my calculations...but I would have done the same thing I did on Fri - maybe just tried to do it better. I think the best way to explain is by comparing it to Blackjack. You get dealed a 9, Dealer get a 10. Do you hit or stay? Ok - QUICK!! MAKE YOUR DECISION IN 2 SECONDS OR YOU GET SLAMMED OVER THE HEAD BY THIS 2X4!!!!. What was your choice? Most people would choose to "Stay" - why? Because of the odds.
So using this example - that's how I view my situation. It was a gamble. It was a decision that needed to be made in a millisecond...I went with the odds. It saved me time and time before in the 200,000 other miles I rode...I didn't know this time the car would spin out across 2 other lanes and turn into me...odds of a person being that incompetent in their vehicle was lower than otherwise. Obviously, I've raised those odds now and have adjusted my calculations accordingly as well.
amarko5
16-02-06, 10:37 PM
and a link to a vid news report about it :lol:
http://www.kfmb.com/flv/video_pop?startID=39046
argatxa
17-02-06, 02:55 PM
Tight traffic... not too much room for doing sensible filtering there. On that situation I would eat honda.... for sure....
Glad she is ok.
I do the same with perceiving what the cars are going to do and cheer myself for spoting it. All the times that I have thought... "mmmmm, nahhh... it's not going to happend" I have crashed...
Jelster
17-02-06, 03:27 PM
After all that has been said, and I'm not going to side with anyone on this...
I am a great beliver in the fact that as a biker you should be aware of what is around you and react accordingly. Toa great part, your destiny is in your hands and you shouldn't put yourself in potentially dangerous situations.
The first time I watched it I thought that her speed was a bit high for the situation/levels of traffic. Once the car came past to her right and blocked any possible escape path, I would like to think that I would have been off the gas and maybe even braking a bit.
Once the car starts to skid it takes a bit of time for her to get off the gas, maybe she was looking to the right, at her clocks etc, but she didn't seem that quick off of the gas and onto the brakes (but it could just look that way and in real life actually take that long, I'm not sure).
However, once the car starts coming across the road there's very little she can do about it. No escape path and a diminishing gap. What does puzzle me is that she doesn't seem to lose the front, I'd like to think that I would be working the brakes that hard (warm dry roads) to the point where they lose grip. It's a do or die situation.
At a guess I reckon the car driver has hit the handbrake, becasue if you watch the slo mo, you see the back wheels lock up, which is probably what starts the car to spin in that way... As for his speed, when he does brake, he's not that close to the car in front and I can't see any brake lights from it either.
Anyways, at least she wasn't too badly hurt.
Flamin_Squirrel
17-02-06, 03:41 PM
What does puzzle me is that she doesn't seem to lose the front, I'd like to think that I would be working the brakes that hard (warm dry roads) to the point where they lose grip. It's a do or die situation.
I dunno. I've thought about this one before and have decided that if I'm gonna hit a car, I want to be on the bike, not sliding on the floor. I'd rather brake a little more gently to make sure I dont lock the front and deck the bike - better to go over the bonet a little faster than under the wheels a little slower!
argatxa
17-02-06, 04:00 PM
I'd rather brake a little more gently to make sure I dont lock the front and deck the bike - better to go over the bonet a little faster than under the wheels a little slower!
Good one... something to remember.... [**scratching on notebook**]
Jelster
17-02-06, 11:26 PM
I'd rather brake a little more gently to make sure I dont lock the front and deck the bike - better to go over the bonet a little faster than under the wheels a little slower!
Good one... something to remember.... [**scratching on notebook**]
Don't credit me with that, it was Jordans comment. I just like to think that I would have done everything I could to miss the car, if I hadn't locked the front up I would keep telling myself that I could have braked harder.
Just my opinion......
.
seedy100
19-02-06, 11:54 PM
Just watched the vid.
Really compelling, had to watch it several times.
One lucky girl to walk away from that.
You clearly hear her come off the power before the honda starts to skid.
The Honda appears to accelerate, but that might just be the bike slowing down, if you look at the white lines it doesnt appear that the car speeds up.
He is closing the gap on the white car in front though.
Traffic on the right is slow / nearly stationary, so I would say the white car is slowing down (no brake lights but there does look like slow traffic in front of it)
It does appear that matey is not paying attention and notices the developing situation late.
As he brakes, as others have noted, the back wheels lock up first.
My guess would be that this is an effect of uneven tyre pressures.
The car starts to pivot arround the locked up wheel and drifts out and round.
I would guess that the driver lifts off the brake at some point after turning 180 degrees, which is why the car comes back towards the bike.
(This is probably a load of boŁŁocks, but its the best I can do!)
Could the biker have avoided the smash?
Obviously the answer to that is yes.
For instance, she could have chosen a different route that day.
A more reasonable question might be;
From the time that the Honda shows the first sign of being a hazard, was there a way out?
I cant see one,
TBH I think she did well to "sense" the problem in the first place.
Backing off when she did could well be what made this a walk away.
But then I dont know Jack Sh!T.
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