View Full Version : Clutchless Gear change
Clutchless gear changing? Does anyone do it on the SV’s. I have tried it and cant get it kicked up into a higher gear – trying it from 3rd upwards. The gear shift feels ‘solid’ and wont go up unless I squeeze the clutch a little. Accelerating hard, roll off throttle quickly, and pushing gear shift up – but no joy. Any thoughts on this???
Jelster
07-03-06, 11:40 AM
I don't ride any other way (unless it's slowly, and that's not like me).
Seriously, I "kick shift" on both the SV and the FireBlade all the time. Admitadly the SV hasn't quite gone from 1st to 2nd on a few occasions, but that's probably down to me not having a feel for it yeat, I've only done a couple of hundred miles on so far.
Technique is simple, as you accelerate put a bit of pressure on the lever, dip gas, move foot, back on gas all; done ready for the next one....
.
I do the same... all up shift are clutchless... I think there is a train of thought thats says it puts less wear on the clutch. As long as your doing it right.
Gears after 3rd work best....
Up and down me, but im a muppet :D
Up most of the time, down, only when im 'progessing'
Ceri JC
07-03-06, 12:19 PM
I do the same... all up shift are clutchless... I think there is a train of thought thats says it puts less wear on the clutch. As long as your doing it right.
Gears after 3rd work best....
Agreed. I don't bother doing it from 1->2, and usually not from 2->3, either. Make sure you "preload" the gear lever with a bit of pressure to take the slack out before actually applying the force to make it change gear. I find high revs and slightly backing off the throttle just as you push the lever help too.
I've learnt how to do it just so I can and do it when I'm in a hurry, but don't do it in day to day riding.
I'd never do a clutchless downshift on the SV (intentionally :oops: :) ), too much engine braking.
Up and down me, but im a muppet :D
Up most of the time, down, only when im 'progessing'
Apparently I've been know to come off the carriage-way, down though the gears on the slip road no handed arms out like a plane... Me... never... :wink:
Make sure you "preload" the gear lever with a bit of pressure to take the slack out before actually applying the force to make it change gear.
I wouldn't do this, it'll put un-necessary wear on the selector.
Jelster
07-03-06, 02:26 PM
Make sure you "preload" the gear lever with a bit of pressure to take the slack out before actually applying the force to make it change gear.
I wouldn't do this, it'll put un-necessary wear on the selector.
Really, but that's the method.... You just apply a small amount of pressure to the lever so when you roll back the gas it drops straight in... Never had any problems with any of my bikes,
(but then I tend not to keep them for too long :roll: )
.
Make sure you "preload" the gear lever with a bit of pressure to take the slack out before actually applying the force to make it change gear.
I wouldn't do this, it'll put un-necessary wear on the selector.
From what I've read that's certainly the case and I've never felt the need, as clutchless upshifting on the SV is a pretty easy operation.
However I'm not convinced that on the road, even riding fast, that it's a necessary technique - a small dab of clutch makes such a difference to the smoothness of the change and is surely mechanically a little more sympathetic.
.
Could someone confirm the mechanics of this?
Sid where are you... Is it good or bad?
Jelster
07-03-06, 03:01 PM
However I'm not convinced that on the road, even riding fast, that it's a necessary technique - a small dab of clutch makes such a difference to the smoothness of the change and is surely mechanically a little more sympathetic..
I'll argue that one with you Greg. My changes are much smoother without the aid of a clutch. I sometimes go from 1st to 2nd with a bit of help from my left hand, but my "style" of riding is that I just "kick & go" from 2nd to top.
In fact, many people have commented on the smoothness of my gear changes on the videos I have done, all of which exclude the clutch. Obviously what works for one doesn't work for everybody.
As for the wear, well I guess that's possible, but like I said, it's never affected any of my bikes, and that GSXR must be getting close to 30k now, and Greeno's not had any gearbox problems that I'm aware of.
.
Ceri JC
07-03-06, 03:35 PM
Could someone confirm the mechanics of this?
Sid where are you... Is it good or bad?
A v. experienced mechanic I talked to about it advised against it. He said any slight benefit of reduced clutch wear is negated by wear/damage to the dogs of the gears, which of course, are far more spectacular when they fail. I said that I'd read if it was done right it didn't do any damage, he reckoned it'd need to be done near-perfectly in order for it to not have some effect on the gears.
to clutchless upshift, put slight pressure on shifter, roll back on throttle ever so lightly, this will unload tranny, the pressure of your foot will pop it right into the next gear
using clutch to shift will NOT make clutch wear any faster,
clutchless shifts are not smoother, if they are for you, you don't know how to properly use a clutch
clutchless downshifting is a little trickier, but similar, instead of rolling off throttle, you have to give is a "little" blip
it's a good skill to be able to clutchless shift (as I found out a couple weeks ago) in the event you break a clutch cable, especially the clutchless downshifting
there is no advantage to clutchless shifting, in a drag race in might give you a .05second advantage, or it might not
don't be afraid to slip clutch, SV has wet clutches and it won't hurt a wet clutch
clutchless shifting will not hurt a SV transmission, it's a constant mesh transmission, which is the reason you can so easily clutchless shift
Guys, (sorry and girls)
This is very very simple, clutchless up changes will not do any harm to your gearbox, if performed well. As most experienced readers will tell you, they are best for getting a move on, because you spend more time on the gas. Downchanges are really not advised. As someone said the main reason being that you can feed the clutch in and feel how much the engine braking is going to effect the back wheel traction. :shock: :wink:
As far as i'm aware clutchless up shifting does not cause any extra wear.
I only really do it when i'm riding at a faster pace though
DanAbnormal
07-03-06, 06:31 PM
Is there any real point to this for road riding? Or is it like knee-down antics? Great for the track but no real use for the road. I'm not having a dig, I really want to know. My friend says my gear changes are lightning quick yet still smooth so I've never seen the point. He does it all the time and I was once on the back of his gixxer 750, let me tell you clutchless felt and sounded bad..........vroooom, grind, bang, vrooooooom. Poor gearbox.
kwak zzr
07-03-06, 06:50 PM
i used to always shift up the box without the clutch on IL4's but i find the sv smoother with the clutch, and evan using the clutch i aint no turtle.
Guys, (sorry and girls)
This is very very simple, clutchless up changes will not do any harm to your gearbox, if performed well.
I'm going to suggest that's the case but only if they're performed perfectly.
.
Sid Squid
07-03-06, 09:29 PM
Could someone confirm the mechanics of this?
Sid where are you... Is it good or bad?
Clutchless changes...good or bad? Well I can tell you, categorically, right now:
It depends...mainly on the specific technique used.
A well executed clutchless change puts no more wear/stress/load on anything, and clearly puts less wear on the clutch, 'cos you didn't use it.
Upchanges:
There are several ways to do it, all essentially similar, differing only in detail and by the advantage they may give, (if you get it right that is).
Fastest change, used as if you're on a timed quarter, (ie drag racing):
Preload the lever firmly, roll out the throttle *just* enough for the dogs to be unloaded and the change to occur. With practice (ie lots of time on the strip), this can be a lightning fast change, the gear will go through very quickly, the time taken from on, to off, to on throttle is where the practice/skill lies, the further out you roll the throttle the longer it takes, the less you roll it out the harder the gear change is which takes longer too.
Downside: Wear, on everything, forks/grooves/pins/drum/dogs the lot, can be worth lots of time though, (relatively speaking, in a quick quarter), that said, as long as you don't make a constant habit of it, you won't break anything that quickly.
Lazy change, changing gear smoooooothly and unhurriedly just exactly like you would with the clutch, only...without:
Roll throttle out, lift gear lever, roll throttle back in again. If you do it right this change can be smoother than a cashmere codpiece, what you're looking for is for there to be no 'jerk' in the drive, bit of practice though and anyone can do it, the trick, (if there is one), is to only drop the throttle out to the point at which you would need it to be so that in the next gear you would neither be accelerating or decelerating from the speed at which you initiated the change, thus allows all the bits and pieces to be revolving at as near the same speed as possible thus they mesh together as imperceptibly as possible.
Downside: None, if you get it right, which isn't hard. Won't win you any drag races though.
Downchanges, Bit different this, similar principle to lazy change, that is: Smooooth.
First some things to know:
No matter what gear you're in, when the engine isn't running the speed of everything is nil, (yeah I know, blindingly bloody obvious, but hold that thought), that is; all the same speed. Using convenient figures, say that at 10,000rpm 1st gear makes the output shaft of the gearbox revolve at 1000rpm, 2nd 2000rpm, 3rd 3000rpm etc. Knowing this it can easily be seen that the faster the engine speed is, the further apart, relatively speaking, the speeds of the gearbox parts are. At 10,000rpm the relative speeds are 1000rpm apart, at 5000rpm 500rpm apart, at tickover (say 1000rpm, easy numbers see? I like that), the relative speeds only differ by 100rpm.
A smooth change occurs when the various bits that need to mesh are revolving at as similar speeds as is possible, in practice the slowest that you can run the engine is tickover, if you were to change down clutchless at as close to tickover as possible the relative parts would be as best speed matched as is possible. If you were to add the slightest smidgeon of throttle just as you go to change, this would unload the 'box and make the change easier, also it would speed the drive into the gearbox up a bit, such that it would be running at the slightly higher speed that the lower gear would demand to run at the same speed, just as in the the lazy change above.
Downside: Not easy to get right, and basically no advantage anyway, save for a useful technique to have when the clutch cable breaks at an inconvenient time, I have done several hundred miles like this, getting neutral while still rolling makes all the difference.
getting neutral while still rolling makes all the difference.
Good write up Mr Squid. One question (and I am not being pedantic, I really want to know the answer):
How do you get a gear from a standstill when you have no clutch. Do you just loose all mechanical sympathy and jam a gear or do you paddle the bike upto 5 mph and jam a gear. How do you stop from stalling.
On the SV you have to pull the clutch in to start the bike so you cant turn the bike off, kick it into gear and then use the starter motor to get you going (or can you). Can you do this on any bike???
Sid Squid
07-03-06, 09:55 PM
How do you get a gear from a standstill when you have no clutch. Do you just loose all mechanical sympathy and jam a gear or do you paddle the bike upto 5 mph and jam a gear. How do you stop from stalling?
If there's any sort of incline and/or the bike is light enough, just paddle away and stick it in gear, it'll be a bit jerky but as long as you get it moving a bit it'll be OK, you needn't worry to greatly over wear/damage as long as you don't have the tickover set at 17,000rpm. If you're careful neutral isn't hard to get from 2nd without the clutch, it has the advantage of not being speed sensitive - there's no bits to speed match when going in to neutral, of course it still needs 2nd unloaded with a dab of throttle to make the change, but the exact amount of throttle, (within reason of course), isn't critical.
On the SV you have to pull the clutch in to start the bike so you cant turn the bike off, kick it into gear and then use the starter motor to get you going (or can you). Can you do this on any bike???
Well the clutch cable is broken, so you can do what you like with the lever :lol: it don't matter. On an incline or if you really can't get it moving by paddling, you could kill the motor, put it in first and use the starter, but don't make a habit of it, if you really must, then at least help it as much as you can with a push. What I prefer is either stall it where you need to stop, get neutral and restart, or preferably, get neutral before stopping, then your mate gets off his bike and pushes you away when the lights change, you then grab a gear and get going. This has the advantage of wearing your mate out rather than the starter clutch/motor etc, which is much more expensive, :lol: .
Can you do it on any bike? Yes, lighter bikes are easier of course.
Cheers Sid looks like I'm doing my changes just fine... I'll leave the downs alone.
Thanks for all the views. I was out today and yes it is smooth and easy once you know the right way to go about it.
Technique is simple, as you accelerate put a bit of pressure on the lever, dip gas, move foot, back on gas all; done ready for the next one....
.
:thumbsup:
Ceri JC
13-03-06, 05:06 PM
Loads of useful info.
Ta for that. All mentally stored away for the point in the future when the clutch cable does fail.
Professor
13-03-06, 07:22 PM
All mentally stored away for the point in the future when the clutch cable does fail.
Reminds me of the day I learned clutchless gear changes in a car. Had
to learn the hard way: clutch failed on the M25, so I quickly learned to perform
clutchless changes on the hard shoulder, then continued my journey to Heathrow,
parked in a multistorey garage, picked up the person I was meeting, and
eventually made my way back to Brighton.
Never tried clutchless gear changes since that day, neither in a cage nor on my bike.
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.