Cornering Confidence

[I'm_a_Newbie]

Hi

I have now had my SV650 for a week. My confidence has grown on the bike having ridden it every day so far. I seem to have a confidence problem when it comes to cornering though. I had this problem while riding my 125 for 2 years. The 125 did not feel very stable and was easily unbalanced when cornering.

The one thing I have found since moving up to a bigger bike is how solid they feel on the road compared to a smaller bike. Despite this, my cornering speed seems to be similar to when I rode my 125.

For example, twice this week I have had to ride into Portsmouth. On my return journey I used the M275 and took the Cosham turn off. This turn off has a 90 degree right hand bend, both times I kept to the left lane. I achieved about 45 miles an hour round the bend. On the first occassion I was overtaken by Kawasaki 400 in the right hand lane who was doing at least 10mph more than me and it looked like he/her could have gone a lot faster, he/she did not run wide and looked very composed.

On the second occassion I again reached about 45 mph and was overtaken by a Fiesta! doing about the same speed as the Kawasaki was.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be the fastest thing on two wheels I just feel I could achieve more. However I wan't to remain safe, roadside furniture hurts!

What should I feel when the bike/tyres have reached their cornering limit? One things that gets me nervous is an uneven surface on a bend such as this. It's not too bad in daylight as you can see the surface if your not going to fast, but what about night time?

Any advice to help me get a little quicker?

Many thanks
Tim

[The Basket]

In my experience...the SV is a great cornering bike and will corner as fast as you need. If the bike is in top notch condition.

But corner only as fast as you feel comfy. With time, things get faster.

A track day is the best place for knee down wotsits.

[rictus01]

Hi Tim,

Don't beat yourself up over it, a lot of people have this problem and some won't even admit it :shock: , your new to the bike, new to big bikes, riding in less than perfect conditions, and have already convinced yourself that cornering is a problem for youself.

On a practical basis,
What you can do to the bike:-
the SV front springs are at best weak, so you could upgrade them (stop the front diving so much) or indeed put on as much preload as possible (screw in the screw on the top of the fork legs).

What you can do riding the bike now:-

relax, i know it sounds simple, but in all likelyhood you're tencing up as you commit to the corner. don't try active counter steering or weight transfer at this time as you need to get used to the bike and the feel.
judge the line you want to take through a corner and try practising it, remember coming off the throttle will make the bike unstable, when learning "slow in fast out".

make sure your tyres are in good nick and up to pressure, once again simple, but if you know they are right it's one less thing to worry about.

What you can do in the future:-

Do a track day, even the slowest newest rider will get an understanding of "line & apex" somewhere like Lydd will cost you about £90 for the day and you'll come away knowing you bike can do the things you ask of it and more, try active counter steering, one of those things that sounds weird but does work.
learn about weight shifting and how it effects the CofG on the bike, practise through the summer on decent roads.it'll come, just remember get the technic right and the speed will come of its own accord.

Hope that helps.

Cheers Mark.

[I'm_a_Newbie]

Hi Tim,

Don't beat yourself up over it, a lot of people have this problem and some won't even admit it :shock: , your new to the bike, new to big bikes, riding in less than perfect conditions, and have already convinced yourself that cornering is a problem for youself.

On a practical basis,
What you can do to the bike:-
the SV front springs are at best weak, so you could upgrade them (stop the front diving so much) or indeed put on as much preload as possible (screw in the screw on the top of the fork legs).

What you can do riding the bike now:-

relax, i know it sounds simple, but in all likelyhood you're tencing up as you commit to the corner. don't try active counter steering or weight transfer at this time as you need to get used to the bike and the feel.
judge the line you want to take through a corner and try practising it, remember coming off the throttle will make the bike unstable, when learning "slow in fast out".

make sure your tyres are in good nick and up to pressure, once again simple, but if you know they are right it's one less thing to worry about.

What you can do in the future:-

Do a track day, even the slowest newest rider will get an understanding of "line & apex" somewhere like Lydd will cost you about £90 for the day and you'll come away knowing you bike can do the things you ask of it and more, try active counter steering, one of those things that sounds weird but does work.
learn about weight shifting and how it effects the CofG on the bike, practise through the summer on decent roads.it'll come, just remember get the technic right and the speed will come of its own accord.

Hope that helps.

Cheers Mark.

Hi Mark

Thanks for the advise. My Direct Access instructor also picked up that I tend to look at the road just in front of the bike when cornering and not into the distance. Thinking back to the M275 I did this both times. It's a habit I must get out of.

Thanks,
Tim

[Patch]

What will you feel when the tyres have passed their limit of traction? Tarmac and it bloody hurts.

Take it steady, it is cold, the roads are cold and the tyres are not yet going to be working efficiently.

Above all never compare yourself with other bikes when riding, you need to ride within yourself, don't worry with experience of your new bike you'll explore more of its potential. Never underestimate the fact that too many bikers are killed on bikes the bought "just a few weeks ago". It takes time to get to know a new bike don't rush it

[rictus01]

Hi Mark

Thanks for the advise. My Direct Access instructor also picked up that I tend to look at the road just in front of the bike when cornering and not into the distance. Thinking back to the M275 I did this both times. It's a habit I must get out of.

Thanks,
Tim

Two things to remember

1./ look where you want to go, and you'll go there.
you suffer target fixation, if you look down you just see the curb coming towards you until you feel you have to slow down, it's not anything new, loads of new riders do it, the faster the bike the more you do it!

2./ just by way of getting out of the habit, say to yourself (out loud) "chin up, chin up" as you go in to a corner, trust me it will help.

I'd also advise finding a corner you've already had a problem with and going back either late at night or on a weekend and just practicing it 10 times, 20 times 50 times, you will get to a point where it isn't as worrying by degree each time and you can focus more on technic.

Cheers Mark.

[Vfr400]

Hi



The one thing I have found since moving up to a bigger bike is how solid they feel on the road compared to a smaller bike. Despite this, my cornering speed seems to be similar to when I rode my 125.



Tim

In racing some of the highest cornering speeds are from the 125's so don't be too disillusioned at the moment.

chris

[I'm_a_Newbie]

Hi

Thanks for all your comments. Maybe a rideout would be useful where I could observe other riders and get some more experience. I am only using the bike for commuting really at the moment, about 8 miles each way. The only other person I know with a bike lives in Scotland. I don't think the SV will make it that far on a Sunday afternoon!

Kind regards
Tim

[TSM]

Dont try to push it too far otherwise you have no room for mistakes. For me to keep up with the TL bikes i had to get high corner speeds and high lean angles. This would leave me in the position that if i misjudged a corner then i would not have any more lean left to get around.

Take it easy.

[rictus01]

The only other person I know with a bike lives in Scotland. I don't think the SV will make it that far on a Sunday afternoon!

Kind regards
Tim

Tim add your location to your profile, I know Dan (Grinch) and Scoobs both lives in Cosham which can't be far from you?

perhaps a PM would be in order.

save you looking him up, use this link.

http://forums.sv650.org/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=98


Cheers Mark.

[Scoobs]

Tim add your location to your profile, I know Dan (Grinch) and Scoobs both lives in Cosham which can't be far from you?

Beat me to it Mark.

Tim,

Poole Quay will be starting again soon and there are usually a few of us who take a bimble down. You are more than welcome to tag along.

[kwak zzr]

i find the sv a very good handling bike as good as my old cbr if not better because my cbr was 4years old and the shock's were prob a bit worn, my new'ish sv on new springs handles great! it surprised me for a budget bike :D like all the other guys have said "dont push it the roads are damp, salty, cold and greasy"
the sv did take me sometime to learn how to ride it properley infact a rarther embarasing long time because of the engine characteristics(and me being used to IL4's), at slow speeds the sv is not smooth to corner so the right gear and the right rpm is critical.
as a new rider you should be enjoying just getting used to you new big bike and you can use your new found confidence in the summer when the roads are in good condition.

[Peter Henry]

Simply give yourself time fella. Experience is a wonderful thing to help you gain both skill and confidance. I can't think why anyone would even want to get to the limit of the grip available at the edge of their tyres,particularly on the public roads.

A lot of it is B.S. from people trying to impress. The comment about 125's is very valid, if you watch Moto GP when they do an onboard run watching the "speedo" shows you that the top boys are not actually going massively faster through many of the bends,the main difference being how they get to the bends and how they come out of them again.

But then again after way too many years on bikes I still love the 50p cornering style which suits me to a tee! :wink:

[mattSV]

Scoobs wrote:-

Poole Quay will be starting again soon and there are usually a few of us who take a bimble down...............

and a blat on the way home :twisted:

[Biker Biggles]

Being a cheapskate skinflint I prefer the 20 p cornering method.Only riders of exotic Italian steeds can afford the 50 p version.When I was really poor I used to have to content myself with a thuppenny bit.I'm better than that now. :lol:

[kwak zzr]

[quote="Peter Henry"]
A lot of it is B.S. from people trying to impress.


the only one near accident i had last year was trying to get my knee down :oops: felt like i lost the rear and the bike try'd to spit me off! i cant do it and yes it does pi$$ me off! but i know it will come. so for now i just enjoy the roads and relax!

[fizzwheel]

Hi Tim

Liz's parents live in Cosham, she knows that bend very well. It has a nice surface and its good for practising your corner technique.

What the others have said about relaxing and looking where you want to go and not looking at the road is excellent advice IMHO. I struggled with corners at first, but it just takes time and practice and then you'll get the hang of it. Dont rush things especially at this time of year when the roads are cold, Wait a couple of months for it to get warmer and then get out there and get some miles under your belt.

:thumbsup:

Have a look in the South West Surfers section of the forum, next time Liz and I are down in that area we'll pop a post up and maybe we could meet up for a bit of a ride out and a chat if you fancy that.

You should enjoy your riding for you and not worry about being passed or how slow you are, real bikers dont give a monkees about this kind of thing anyway.

[Sudoxe]

A couple of small tips, from someone who is still slow :lol: ...

1) Have a flick through the police roadcraft book, theres a section on positioning for corers and it does work with some practice. Basically positioning your self for a better view arround the corner so it opens up quicker. Then you have to learn about vanishing points, etc etc, all will come with time..

2) Dont go steaming up to a corner, enter it and grab some front brake mid corner because you are going too fast, you can very easily grab too much and end up on your ****, and that hurts :oops:

Dan

[tricky]

What everybody else said.

Just relax, when I started I was getting overtaken by milkfloats on bends.
Don't even think about it, just relax and enjoy your riding its not Motogp.

Just concentarte on keeping it smooth, nice lines, look through the turn, (where you look is where you'll go).

The two lads who I normally ride with have about 700 years biking experience between them. First time I went out on a rideout with them after passing my test, they (obviously) left me for me dead. I didn't ride with them for about three monthes after that, just went out on my own in the twisties and enjoyed myself at my own pace, rode to work etc, just riding my bike, gaining confidence, getting used to the bike in different conditions and situations.

Next time I rode with my mates I was amazed how much faster I'd got, I still couldn't keep up with them, but I managed to stay in the same county as them :D

Just relax and enjoy it :D

[Sudoxe]

You should enjoy your riding for you and not worry about being passed or how slow you are, real bikers dont give a monkees about this kind of thing anyway.

How true, i've been passed by everything going, from 50cc scotters to a Goldwing* :oops: . Ride within the limits you are happy with and push them slowly.

*In different situations, scooters in traffic, im sure they must be shouting banzi!

Dan

[mattSV]

Tim

The best two things that I have ever done to give me cornering confidence have been:-

1) Change the OE tyres - I always felt that the stock tyres felt as if the front was going to wash out - I have Metz Z6s on my SV1000 now and they are a superb combination of grip and wear

2) Do a Bikesafe day - I did one with Hants Police 3 years ago, and will probably do a refresh this year. I spent a day riding with a copper - I was on my 650, he was on a CBR600. We rode the A32, 272, 31 and all the good roads inbetween! I learnt a hell of a lot about position, speed, gears, accelerating/braking, reading the road etc. The emphasis was about how to get the most of your bike on the road, whilst reducing the risk of causing any damage to yourself or others. Cost for this year is £65 and well worth it IMHO - see here for more info:-

http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/Bikesafe/Bikesafe2000/england/hampshire/hampshire.html

HTH

Matt

[Patch]

How true, i've been passed by everything going, from 50cc scotters to a Goldwing* :oops: . Ride within the limits you are happy with and push them slowly.

*In different situations, scooters in traffic, im sure they must be shouting banzi!

Dan

I wouldn't feel bad about the Goldwing, I have passed lots of bikes on mine.

[Gidders]

Echo all the above. I would add just one thing - do lots and lots and lots of miles. Don't worry about speed, especially in the winter; just let constant road time give you confidence so when the good weather comes you'll be ready to push yourself a little further. don't worry about the bike, it'll take everything you can throw at it, and more.

[jonboy]

What will you feel when the tyres have passed their limit of traction? Tarmac and it bloody hurts.

Take it steady, it is cold, the roads are cold and the tyres are not yet going to be working efficiently.

Above all never compare yourself with other bikes when riding, you need to ride within yourself, don't worry with experience of your new bike you'll explore more of its potential. Never underestimate the fact that too many bikers are killed on bikes the bought "just a few weeks ago". It takes time to get to know a new bike don't rush it

Good advice, and it would be both prudent and sensible to remember it ;).

I nearly killed myself within two weeks of getting my SV, it's so easy to get carried away and out of your depth. It's surprising how long it takes to really become a proficient and capable rider, so simply take it easy and learn a lit little bit at a time.


.

[diamond]

Echo all the above. I would add just one thing - do lots and lots and lots of miles. Don't worry about speed, especially in the winter; just let constant road time give you confidence so when the good weather comes you'll be ready to push yourself a little further. don't worry about the bike, it'll take everything you can throw at it, and more.

Totally agree with this, it also helped me to go out with some and follow there lines through corners, as long as they go and a resonable speed for you not have to worry about what your doin. Even now i follow fizz most of the time and use his lines as a guide. Plus i know that if he has got round a certain corner at a certain speed i should be able to do it as well. Just make sure you follow some one you completely trust and is aware of your relative lack of experience and the fact you are still learning.

[I'm_a_Newbie]

Hi All

Thanks for all your comments. I will be taking it easy and letting my confidence grow. For those interested I have added my location to my profile, which is Waterlooville. I work in the North Porstmouth area not to far from Cosham, hence the M275 at lunchtime.

The Poole run sounds interesting. I will have to stick with the stock tyres for now. The previous owner did 5500 miles on the bike and they are hardly worn!

I haven't ridden it today and I'm getting withdrawl symptoms.

kind regards
Tim

[DanAbnormal]

I'm fortunate enough to have a bike instructor who is a mate and we go for rides quite often. He has a Blackbird and I thought I would never be ale to keep up but it's all about mind over matter. If you are scared then you will tense up, look at the road surface and fixate on something in front of the bike. If you look deep into the corner as far as you can see (where you want to go) then you will find you can corner much quicker/safer. Also it halps to select the correct gear for the corner, this takes a little experience but it will soon come. Get all your braking done before you lean and then accelerate through the bend. It will all come with more road time but maybe a few advanced lessons is a good way to go if you want to get your skills up quicker.

Dan

[mattSV]

sv_dan wrote

and then accelerate through the bend

assuming that the vanishing point is extending :wink:

[timwilky]

Tim

From a fellow Tim, My first posts on this forum were a plea for help with my cornering as I had not ridden for 22 years and need help.

What I subsequently learnt was

Look through the bend, avoid target fixation or you end up in what you are looking at.

Countersteering is a difficult methodology to describe, but it does get you through the bends cleaner. I will leave it to someone more gifted in the science to explain.

Other than that plan your route through a bend. The SV can help as it is so forgiving of poor gear selection. Reduce speed in and accelerate out. Know your position and hitting the accelerator on the apex can catapault you out making the who thing look effortless.

It will come with time and road miles. So enjoy getting them and ride safe. don't feel compelled to exceed your abilities. ride with some experienced riders but avoid the balls out variety as their ego evetually puts them into the hedge

I am intrigued about your comment that the stock tyres have done 5000 miles and hardly worn. Most tyres are end of life by then, so I guess thay have been replaced with stock. Bikes that have clocked up motorway miles tend to suffer from a squaring of the profile which can make cornering "interesting"

[tricky]

Just picking up on Timwilky's comment about the tyres.

I'm_a_newbie - Although the tyres may appear to have plenty of tread on them the chances are the tyre will have lost its profile and squared off. (Although At 5500 I would expect them to be pretty bald anyway)

Are you sure that they are the factory fit tyres and that the previous owner hasn't just replaced them with the same. ?

[Mutley]

Are you sure that they are the factory fit tyres and that the previous owner hasn't just replaced them with the same. ?

Nope, they are the original tyres never changed them. I was quite surprised how well they have lasted too.

[K]

OK, then, here's my poor attempt at explaining how to counter steer (rather than what it is). Copied from another thread.

When leaning into a corner shift your upper body slightly towards the inside handle bar - the transferrance of weight will automatically make you countersteer slightly.

It can help to actually drop your outside shoulder slightly too. This is probably a really bad description - but if taking a left-hander = keep your head upright, pull you right shoulder down towards your left hip slightly whilst shifting your left shoulder towards the inside of the corner.
Don't worry about conciously applying pressure on either of the bars - let your weight do it for you.

It's kind of a :riding: movement!

Once that feels more natural then you can actually think about applying pressure onto the inside bar - then pushing down on the inside peg too.

What is it - basically it's actively steering in opposition to the way you want to go! Yeah - go figure. :roll: :wink:

[Professor]

Are you sure that they are the factory fit tyres and that the previous owner hasn't just replaced them with the same. ?

Nope, they are the original tyres never changed them. I was quite surprised how well they have lasted too.

I've done over 8K and am still on the original tyres. :oops:

[Peter Henry]

B:B:.....You failed to take in to account the affects of inflation since your threpenny bit was in circulation mate! Nothing at all to do with my own personal wealth! :P :P :P

[Biker Biggles]

Inflation?Pah!
That's what happens to my ego when I graduate from the thruppenny bit to turning on a sixpence. :wink:

[lukemillar]

You should take a look at 'Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code or something similar. It is a really good read and explains so much about riding that can be applied to both the track and the road. He talks about what makes the bike happy through corners and what doesn't. It doesn't matter how fast you are going the principles are the same.

[goonrider]

Hi,
don't know if it's been mentioned previously but the biggest thing that helped me early on was a mate suggesting to get it all sorted before a corner/bend.

ie basically sort your gears/brakes/position then you should'nt need to unsettle the bike while'st leaning, gives you more confidence, I do this. You can then concentrate on getting a good line & pile on more speed each time you ride through. :wink:

[21QUEST]

My view on such question is whilst there have been very good stuff posted 'Ignore all the Internet advanced lessons'.

It's easy to get yourself in a bit of a state trying to take it all in. Be relaxed in the meantime and try and get some more tuition from a professional. Most riding schools should be able to provide that.

Cheers
Ben

[Ceri JC]

sv_dan wrote

and then accelerate through the bend

assuming that the vanishing point is extending :wink:

I neglected this subtle nuance and managed to spectacularly bodge a decreasing radius turn, resulting in me running wide, shooting across the oncoming lane and hitting (thankfully) a mud bank, rather than trees/oncoming trucks, etc. :)

Take it easy, you'll get better with practice. As people have said Metzler Z6s make a huge amount of difference, as does a sunny dry day, good road surface and you being more relaxed.

[Jelster]

I would just add, that after riding with a couple of mates yesterday, make sure that when you practice your cornering that:

a) You know the road, and

b) The surface is good.

Yesterday I was left behind by a Speed Triple and a Tuono on some back lanes through Surry where the surface was terrible. So bad in fact that I couldn't even go fast in a straight line, the FireBlades suspension was just too hard. In bends the bike would run wide and at one point it even started to lose grip.

So, make sure you have a decent surface to start with, poor tarmac will make the whole thing much worse.

.

[Tim in Belgium]

Tim,

I was in a similar position when I started riding last September, relaxing and riding a fair bit saw a vast improvement over the next few months, I think riding the same roads again and again really helps. Didn't get out on the bike much over the winter, what with travel with work, holidays etc. Went out for a ride this weekend and was amazed by how rusty I was, overtaken by a guy on some 50's Norton, loads of race reps etc but still had a great day out and looking forward to the weather improving. Just practice without pressure and you'll soon be heaps better than when you started.

Cheers,

Tim

[copper kettle]

Look into joining the IAM. They will teach you lots of practical advice and help you practice, plus you get to meet some liked minded individuals and get some biking buddies. It really has changed my riding confidence, particularly in the corners. The other thing to look at is a track day and you can practice in relative safety.

Dan

[svsjason]

I've only had my 06 for a few months. I had a favorite road to take full of twisties; each time a little faster. About a week ago, they "repaired" some cracks by laying down fresh asphalt lines (little slippery squiggly lines on the road).

Long story short...cornering speed is coming to me with lots of practice on the same stretch of road...and...because of the "repairs" to my favorite road...the rear tire will slip about six inches to the left or right when it comes loose...a real puckerer.

I'm new...but hope this helps.

[Essex of Essex]

It's worth investing in a days training, I did this recently with Camrider 4 hours with an instructor, looking at vanishing points, road positioning, head positioning where to look, all at my own pace which got quicker and quicker as the day went on :D

A lot of these things differ from the way you are taught to pass your test, or if you are of my vintage you taught yourself.