View Full Version : Biker death :( , last night 29thmarch.
hall13uk
30-03-06, 08:23 AM
blackbird rider died last night on the A2 @ the kidbroke turn off. where the traffic lights are & three lanes go into two. Looks like he tried to take the apex, but because it's a double apex hes hit the kurb & gone down the down the road face first, after his lid had been ripped off. :cry: :cry: :cry: hems were there for hours but his injurys were extensive & severe. one of my mates helped the medics get the rider onto his back once they arrived.
he was wearing all the correct gear, so be careful it has certinly made me think :( about why i ride.
it has certinly made me think :( about why i ride.
That is an unfortunate incident, but instead of thinking why you ride, think HOW you ride.
very sensible words Scoobs.
its always going to happen, people will always get killed on bikes (and every other mode of transport for that matter). we have to do our best to make sure its none of us.
RIP
Anonymous
30-03-06, 08:36 AM
it has certinly made me think :( about why i ride.
That is an unfortunate incident, but instead of thinking why you ride, think HOW you ride.
Damned Scoobs - you're full of so many words of wisdom.
Hall - so sorry to hear about it, i know exactly how you feel. Dont give up riding, but like scoobs says, evaluate HOW you ride. See if you take un-neccessary risks, and if so, address them. Perhaps get on a Bike Safe course - theres loads of them run in and around London and even consider joining the IAM.
I witnessed a random biker get killed in September 2004, then a week or so later, i saw something that will stay with me for ever.
My friend, for no apparent reason, lost control of his bike in excellent conditions, at very slow speed, and lowsided. He was struck by an on-coming car and died at the scene. I was getting ready to pack up riding, but thankfully i didnt... and i also didnt take stock of HOW i was riding, which resulted in my being banned a year later. Lesson learnt? Yup - the hard way.
Dont quit riding, but take it from someone who, whilst fairly young compared to the other guys on here, has experienced a hell of a lot, take stock, learn from it, slow down, think twice, and definately enrol on advanced motoring courses - they're worth their weight in gold. Dont become a me.. minus one friend, and no license for quite some time. 8)
I've just got back on mine after an accident last week. I have to say i thought i'd be fine but when riding through traffic it certainly effected me and made me more nervous.
I found myself riding that bit slower (nearly traffic speed) and waiting that extra 2-3 seconds before going through the gaps.
AS said, accidents happen unfortunatly. No-one likes them, but its part of riding a bike, at some point, you WILL crash be it your own or someone elses fault.
Best cure, get back up, back on and riding again. Longer its left, the harder it will be.
North or Southbound?
Personally the Kidbrooke section of the A2 is the worst bit of my journey followed by the A13. Everyone changes lane then slams their brakes on because of the camera, then changes lane to try and get ahead when it goes into 3 lanes at the lights Northbound. At least near the tunnel when traffic is stationary few cars CAN change lanes.
Scoobs summed it up perfectly though. Dont think about someones death, use it to reflect on your riding and whether you can improve - the truth for nearly all of us is that there is always some room for improvement.
The one issue I have is with your idea of the "correct gear". There is no such thing. Bikers die wearing the "correct gear", bikers die wearing "incorrect" gear. If you ride compensating for that, which if you have this idea of "correct gear" I suspect you do all be it probably subconciously, you are asking for trouble.
Gear helps, but how much depends on the type of accident and what happens. It really is luck to some degree.
The only thing I rely on now to save me is my brain and I endeavour as far as possible not to put myself in a situation whereby I need to rely on my gear.
I always find reporting this kind of thing a little odd. If it was someone we knew well naturally we'd want to know about it, but someone who is a complete stranger seems a little pointless and creates an unecessary negative feeling IMO. After all, many bikers die daily it would seem, which is utterly tragic, but this has no direct reference to us here at SV650.org. I don't mean to seem heartless just trying to point out that not everything needs to be posted, particularly as it has been posted in Idle Banter.
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I always find reporting this kind of thing a little odd. If it was someone we knew well naturally we'd want to know about it, but someone who is a complete stranger seems a little pointless and creates an unecessary negative feeling IMO. After all, many bikers die daily it would seem, which is utterly tragic, but this has no direct reference to us here at SV650.org. I don't mean to seem heartless just trying to point out that not everything needs to be posted, particularly as it has been posted in Idle Banter.
.
Tbh I disagree to some extent. Given the number of people on this forum that ride in using that road I see no harm in posting this.
If not to perhaps make people back off a bit and think about their riding in general but especially on that Kidbrooke stretch. Of all the accidents Ive seen involving bikes on the A2, more often than not they're on that stretch from the turning for Catford through to the lights at Kidbrooke.
Not that I don't think about my riding often, but I appreciate others don't and need reminders like this. Perhaps it was more appropriate in the Soho forum.
And you never know, someone on that forum may actually have known him. It was originally reported on vd as a blade which made my blood run cold as I have a mate that rides one on that road. Made me at least get in touch with him and make sure. :(
i agree with jonboy, paranoia and panic quickly sets in if every random biker related event is catalogued.
we all know the risks.
i don't think i'd want news of my demise plastered all over the internet.
we all know the risks.
Yes most of us do. But there are a fair few that become complacent which I see regularly. Anything that makes one person stop and re-evaluate is worth that imho.
Plus what about new and inexperienced bikers on the forum? Anything that perhaps makes them evaluate or if they use that road be a little more careful is worth the post.
If it hadnt have been posted we may never have had the gem of wisdom from Scoobs. How can you say it isnt worth that? :wink: :P :lol:
i don't think i'd want news of my demise plastered all over the internet.
Its not like you would have the choice though is it to stop the BBC or other news reporting it. Or to be frank, its not like you would care at that point. Your family might but again they wont have any control over the media reporting it either. Welcome to the age of the internet.
If it hadnt have been posted we may never have had the gem of wisdom from Scoobs. How can you say it isnt worth that? :wink: :P :lol:
There goes my reputation as a **** in one fowl (foul??) swoop!
Dammit Lyn :roll: :lol:
There goes my reputation as a **** in one fowl (foul??) swoop!
Yeah :lol: .
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If it hadnt have been posted we may never have had the gem of wisdom from Scoobs. How can you say it isnt worth that? :wink: :P :lol:
There goes my reputation as a **** in one fowl (foul??) swoop!
Dammit Lyn :roll: :lol:
wind it in. one swallow doesn't make a summer
8)
independentphoto
30-03-06, 04:43 PM
Yes most of us do. But there are a fair few that become complacent which I see regularly. Anything that makes one person stop and re-evaluate is worth that imho.
Wise words Lyn.
Just think of us (quite) recent & new riders. Not everyone realises that they're NOT invincible. The way some folk ride, you'd think they were SURE they are.
Sorry to hear of another brother down. :(
Cheers
Garry.
goonrider
30-03-06, 06:13 PM
Real shame!
, most of us probably like to know of these things because unlike car drivers most of us see each other including those we don't know as part of 'our brotherhood'.
Sounds corny I know, but it's why we nod one another or stop to help if needed, .....this chap may well have nodded/helped one of us one time or another.
Thought I was invincible till the XR3i pulled out I went over the bonet, only a few broken bones thank god but never forget how I could so easily have bought it too.
Biker Biggles
30-03-06, 06:56 PM
While on this subject,I witnessed a truely awful exhibition of bad riding on the M25 yesterday.I'm (on four wheels) in lane one doing about fifty.Medium size lorry in lane two doing about fifty five has passed me and is about to be overtaken by van in lane three doing about seventy.Large capacity bike(could have been a Blackbird,not sure)doing about eighty to ninety undertakes van and goes for the rapidly closing gap between van and lorry.Touches lorry as gap closes,but stays on with a huge wobble and what looked like a tankslapper.Nutter.I thought we would be picking bits of said rider out of the Armco.
Blackbird you say? Hmmm, where's Garfield today? :lol:
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Biker Biggles
30-03-06, 07:10 PM
Could'nt be sure what it was but it had twin exhausts like a Blackbird.The road was busy and he was essentially filtering at about ninety,or thirty more than traffic speed.Totally suicidal manoevre.
If it hadnt have been posted we may never have had the gem of wisdom from Scoobs. How can you say it isnt worth that? :wink: :P :lol:
There goes my reputation as a **** in one fowl (foul??) swoop!
Dammit Lyn :roll: :lol:
Just keep posting. Im sure you'll regain it in no time :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok on a more serious note. This issue of complacency or inexperience or just thinking youre invulnerable, these threads cropping up on occasion are reminders that we need to take stock of our riding and are good sobering threads to try and counteract that.
Even more shocking to me is this (http://www.visordown.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256522). I know the guy in question, well the guy who posted. I remember the post about the accident but the pictures speak volumes. This is what happens when you get too confident and overcook a corner too fast with oncoming traffic.
No need really to point out the gixxer rider isnt here to reflect on his mistake. We are vulnerable no matter how experienced or confident we are.
The one issue I have is with your idea of the "correct gear". There is no such thing. Bikers die wearing the "correct gear", bikers die wearing "incorrect" gear. If you ride compensating for that, which if you have this idea of "correct gear" I suspect you do all be it probably subconciously, you are asking for trouble.
No such thing? oh please. Wearing the right gear can minimise injuries and save your life. Yes luck is involved (geez, I should know) but saying there is no such thing as correct gear is just suggesting to people not to bother wearing anything at all. Why not go out in shorts and t-shirt as I saw today?
I'm sorry, I'm with Jonboy on this one. Do we know this guy? If I did know him then yes I would want to know but I don't know him so while it may seem heartless to some, I don't really want to know.
I KNOW that biking is dangerous, anyone who doesn't realise this isn't going to wise up because some stranger is reported on a internet forum as having a fatal accident.
No such thing? oh please. Wearing the right gear can minimise injuries and save your life. Yes luck is involved (geez, I should know) but saying there is no such thing as correct gear is just suggesting to people not to bother wearing anything at all. Why not go out in shorts and t-shirt as I saw today?
Wrong to that assumption. Gear can help, but the assumption and you riding with the assumption it is definitely going to save you is fundamentally flawed.
Im not saying its not worth wearing it because in most cases it will help. But if you ride relying on it, one day youre going to come unstuck. Bit like this guy. His gear didnt save him did it? :roll: It hasnt saved the other bikers that have died this year already that were probably wearing the "correct" gear either. Your kit IS NOT A GUARANTEE which is too common a perception tbh.
Thats all Im trying to say. People unconciously factor it in to their safety margins I think if they have the "correct" gear. And one day, they will find out it doesn't work in all circumstances. And trust me, you dont need to tell me about coming off and the circumstances where gear is advantageous. Im just trying to point out as said this perception that the gear is a guarantee of avoiding injury.
The best way overall is dont ride putting yourself into a situation that is going to cause a problem. That will cover most cases.
Just because you dont make assumptions on that, dont presume others dont either.
I KNOW that biking is dangerous, anyone who doesn't realise this isn't going to wise up because some stranger is reported on a internet forum as having a fatal accident.
For someone who rides the A2 Im surprised by this comment.
Are you saying you've never seen the complacent, the overconfident riders who have forgotten the above? Didnt you have an encounter with a riding god because you werent going fast enough a while back? Its easy to do. Just because you dont suffer from it doesnt mean to say others dont appreciate the reminder.
And end of the day, if you dont want to read about it, DONT READ THE THREAD. Simple.
Ceri JC
30-03-06, 10:07 PM
i agree with jonboy, paranoia and panic quickly sets in if every random biker related event is catalogued.
we all know the risks.
i don't think i'd want news of my demise plastered all over the internet.
And when my girlfriend sees the thread title over my shoulder, she bursts into tears and once again becomes sure that I absolutely, positively, will die young in a biking accident.
When she's in that state, pointing out more car drivers die than bikers, it's just that due to no sense of community between them, it's seldom reported, is little consolation.
I can see both sides of the argument (good: me thinking, maybe I won't charge that bend so fast, bad: my gf having a tizzy), so I'm going to sit on the fence, I think.
I find your outlook sad Lynw, I would think you would actually support people wearing correct bike gear that contains armour? I certainly do not count on my gear saving me, I'm just glad I do wear it as it has certainly saved me broken bones. If I hadn't been wearing my correct gear I certainly wouldn't be sitting here now, the best I could have hoped for without my gear is broken legs and shoulder, if I hadn't been wearing the correct bike gear I would be in plaster or worse right now. So don't tell me that correct gear doesn't help. And my accident wasn't caused by me being over-confident or anything like that either, it was an unavoidable accident caused by a car driver.
Anyone who believes that by wearing armour they are immune to injuries are plain stupid. Yes I have seen the idiots who filter ridiculously and dangerously up the A2, but so what? Reading on the internet that someone has died is going to change their riding style? yeah right, so suddenly they are going to be angels tomorrow? I think not, I fully expect to see the usual idiots filtering up the A2 as normal.
Yes I travel along that bit of road twice daily on the way to and from work, there are plenty of accidents along there, in fact at the moment there is a board up asking for witnesses for a fatal accident that happened towards the beginning of March as well. No I don't want know about it, the reason I opened this thread and read it is because I assumed it was someone connected to this forum. It isn't, now I'm reading it because I'm shocked that an experienced rider would indicate that wearing armour is pointless.
Are you saying you've never seen the complacent, the overconfident riders who have forgotten the above?
Simple.
We've all seen them. However, I doubt that the aforementioned complacent, overconfident riders (assuming they read bike forums) would change their behaviour on reading about a total stranger's accident.
Having said that, I think the odd reminder doesn't go amiss, particularly as the fair weather bikers are starting to come out of hibernation at the moment.
hall13uk
30-03-06, 10:39 PM
well i am sorry if i have upset some people that was not my intention.
i posted so as to give a slap to the face & make people think, in the hope it would serve as a warning. Sometimes i feel even if i did fall off my leathers/armour/lid would enable be to get back up, just goes to show it's not the case. i have had a few offs all low speed 30mph or less & never sustained more than scuffs to my gear, i guess it kinda lured me into a false sense of security. That accident has woke me up to what could happen.
I find your outlook sad Lynw, I would think you would actually support people wearing correct bike gear that contains armour?
Sorry, go back and reread what I have put. Where have I advocated in any way people shouldnt wear armour?
Too many people presume that having the "correct" gear is what it takes to save them. Its that assumption and it being factored into peoples riding that is what Im trying to get at. As James posted above, there are some that think they can just get back up if theyre in the right gear. You arent one of them. My posts were aimed at making some people consider the issue at least and their viewpoint because Id rather one person here reconsidered than continue to presume something that is wrong.
So don't tell me that correct gear doesn't help.
Im not saying its not worth wearing it because in most cases it will help.
But I didnt. I said it did help. But, and you have to accept this is the case, there are times that no amount of gear, and no amount of quality of that gear is going to help. If it was failsafe, bikers would not continue to die in accidents when wearing the "correct" gear.
And my accident wasn't caused by me being over-confident or anything like that either, it was an unavoidable accident caused by a car driver.
Ok. I was explaining why I was making the point. There are, and you have seen them on the A2 riders that become complacent and over confident. I was raising this issue for new and inexperienced riders to be aware of the problem. Nothing to suggest that was behind your accident. But a lot of accidents that happen to new and inexperienced riders are down to these factors. I was trying to raise that awareness not suggest it applied to you.
Anyone who believes that by wearing armour they are immune to injuries are plain stupid. Yes I have seen the idiots who filter ridiculously and dangerously up the A2, but so what? Reading on the internet that someone has died is going to change their riding style? yeah right, so suddenly they are going to be angels tomorrow? I think not, I fully expect to see the usual idiots filtering up the A2 as normal.
Some of us take stock of things that happen and try to ensure that whatever happened to those riders doesnt happen to us. Personally, I would rather learn from someone elses mistakes than mine.
I no longer ride presuming I have nothing to learn from an accident or incident. For example, there are many accidents on the M20, invariably around Ashford junction 8/9, Maidstone junction 5 or Wrotham in particular.
I note these and try and work out why - because these could be factors that affect me in the future. Things like poor road surface in bad weather conditions, visibility issues with Wrotham hill, low banks where HGVs get gusted badly etc. I ride with those hazzards in mind because they are frequent causes of accidents on that road.
If you think you have nothing to learn from these then I think you are wrong. Accidents imo highlight problems with particular stretches of roads and particular hazzards associated with them. They are pointers to future potential hazzards imo.
It isn't, now I'm reading it because I'm shocked that an experienced rider would indicate that wearing armour is pointless.
For some reason youve got it in your head Im saying wearing gear is pointless. See above quote to dispel that. My point was as per first paragraph.
James was the trigger behind me posting this. If its made one person re-evaluate their attitude towards their gear then good.
What you have to remember is because you dont think like that and you think its stupid, there are others that due to confidence or complacency dont consciously think about it and ride presuming theyre geared up theyre going to be ok.
Thats a myth. So many bikers, as has been said, still die with their gear on. Think Sidis are good? No doubt Rictus will correct me if he wasnt wearing them in his accident, but in that case they didnt really help. Thats not to say had he not been wearing "correct" gear the injuries wouldnt have been worse, its merely to point out that no matter how good you think it is, it wont necessarily save you.
I think this applies really:
You<----------------------------------------------------------------------------->My point
:P :D :lol:
Ceri JC
30-03-06, 10:44 PM
A lot of sensible stuff about wearing proper kit.
A bike mag did a study a while back, first riding in 1 piece leathers, then textiles, then jacket and jeans, then just normal clothes and finally underwear. Unsuprisingly, people rode slowest and took fewest risks when in their underwear. The key reason just wearing your underwear to make you ride slower is not particularly bright from a safety POV is that if you're a good, reasonably cautious rider, sadly most of your accidents will involve other road users, who are to blame. A lot of accidents due to other road users can be avoided, but contrary to what the holier than thou camp may think or claim; not all can.
So, when you're invariably had off by a car pulling out when there's no escape route or time to stop, the best safety precaution is to wear proper gear in the first place.
My personal feeling is that a lot of the "wearing a spine protector and a closed face helmet makes you reckless" brigade are merely trying to justify their not wanting to wear much kit. You get it in America where they make even more outlandish claims (Like, "Crash helmets can break your neck so it's safer not to wear them" :roll: ). Anyone who claims to believe that is lying, or at best, deluding themselves.
fizzwheel
30-03-06, 10:54 PM
Somebody, I think its Biker Dene has in their signature.
"If you ride like a knob then you die."
Good gear can help, but it wont save you if you ride like a ****.
Sounds harsh I know but then sometimes the truth does.
amarko5
30-03-06, 10:55 PM
LYNW
http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/bag1.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/photo_hosting.html)
KATE
http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/bag2.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/photo_hosting.html)
come on now ladies Calm down :roll:
amarko5
30-03-06, 10:57 PM
"If you ride like a knob then you die."
it's a saying on a poster in the pub at the cat n fiddle :wink:
and a more fitting statment , you will be hard pressed to find :?
LYNW
http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/bag1.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/photo_hosting.html)
KATE
http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/bag2.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/photo_hosting.html)
come on now ladies Calm down :roll:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
ah come on, Ive missed this. Though its usually Jordan that argues with me :P :lol: :lol:
Kate should know full well a heated debate on a forum is not personal [I hope she does at least] and we all have differing view points. I just think we can learn, or new and inexperienced riders could learn from others mistakes.
For example from this I looked more closely at that bend today on the way to work and way home and I could see how it could happen very easily. Thats one hazzard logged into my memory bank for the future. And its made me look at my planned escape routes on that bend in a new light.
amarko5
30-03-06, 11:02 PM
ohh I know only so well you have missed it :lol:
we crossed swords once :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
ohh I know only so well you have missed it :lol:
we crossed swords once :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
Is this where I ask for a beer? :wink: :lol: :lol:
Lyn, I know where you're coming from.
I saw the aforementioned report on the range of risks we take according to what gear we're wearing and I actually believe it's true to an extent. Each person has their risk levels and some are riskier than others depending on how safe and in control they feel.
In the end it seems to me to boil down to luck. You can be wearing all the right gear which can reduce your injuries but they can't stop you from dying if that's the way the accident goes.
But then you get the accident where the rider gets thrown away from danger and has minor injuries. The kit will minimise damage there as well.
We all do the best we can to stay safe.. well, a lot of us do. :lol: It's just always going to depend on the severity of the accident. Dress for the worst and hopefully you'll come off better.
Can we stop with the holier than thou brigade now? We're all bikers and we all face the same dangers no matter our opinions.
:?
LYNW
http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/bag1.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102051/photo_hosting.html)
KATE
http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/bag2.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/102057/photo_hosting.html)
come on now ladies Calm down :roll:
Hey, how come Lynw's is nicer than mine eh? I need a more fluffy handbag! :P
Ok, things got a bit heated yesterday. You kinda touched a painful spot with that as my accident is still pretty fresh in my mind and I'm still suffering from it.
The way I read your post Lynw was that you thought wearing the correct gear doesn't matter. It now appears that that wasn't what you intended. If people believe that they can take more risks because they are wearing the right gear then they are going to have a very nasty, possibly fatal shock.
I still don't see how reporting this 'for a shock value' as Hall13UK has stated, can do any good. Yes a random biker has died, yes its a bit of road I use all the time but accidents happen, I don't see why it has to be posted here. All it does is upset people unnecessarily. I'm lucky in that my partner is a biker and understands biking but I can just imagine a non-biker reading this and completely flipping. Its not helpful. I have to put up with enough crap from non-bikers harping on about how dangerous it is and how I should give up biking without having to find it here.
At the end of the day, we don't know what happened and nor will we because we don't know the biker, so I can't see how we can learn anything from it. Do you stare at every car accident that you pass trying to evaluate your driving skills against what you guess has happened? its pointless.
Ceri JC
31-03-06, 10:03 AM
"If you ride like a knob then you die."
it's a saying on a poster in the pub at the cat n fiddle :wink:
and a more fitting statment , you will be hard pressed to find :?
I was debating the "actual danger", as opposed to the "perceived danger" of biking with a non-biking mate.I pointed out that whilst it was certainly more dangerous than being in a car, no matter how you ride (assuming you're not a whuss on a bike and a loon in a car) what no statistical report can quantify is quite how much riding like a knob alters the odds. I mean, how could it? Short of getting a large group of people who ride like a bunch of knobs to suddenly become Police class one riders and ride by the book 100% of the time, in whit lids, fluro jackets on white bikes, and conversly, get a load of police and IAM riders to start riding like knobs every time they go out, on matt black GSX-rs in black leathers and lids. Then, after a lifetime analyze the number and nature of accidents they had, then jump back in time and with the same set of people, let them carry on as they had been and compare the results.
My basic argument is that you get habitual crashers who manage to repeatedly bin, it, even on empty roads and you get people who will ride for 60 years and have only 2/3 offs, which were "unavoidable" things like cars rear ending them at lights, etc. My argument is that the former group skew the stats so badly that it's difficult to put an accurate figure on the risk for "bikers as a whole".
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