Getting back your bottle

[Daimo]

Winter has been too long for me. Im not comfortable riding in the rain at speed (mainly as im just straight into london, the roads are awful). So after dropping the bike a few weeks back, and the nasty cold gritty weather, time for some summer riding confidence training :lol:

Found a few quiet and clean (ish) rounadabouts with little twisty 2 lane roads between them (A2, new Ebbsfleet junction). So i spend about 15 minutes blatting round these roundabouts, getting the bike over that bit more, working on the brakes etc....

Thing is, how to hell do you brake hard while cornering? I.e you have a long curve that progressivly gets tighter. You can't back off before the corner, you'd end up stopped.

you can't go hard on the front brake obviously
i tried using the rear more to keep balance, but it always ended up taking me off line into the corners.
Tried using the gears, back end gets skittish (even blipping while changing).

My hands also cained after the little play..

Its gonna take some time :(

Any advice?

[GSXR Carlos]

get your corner speed right before the corner, and use the back brake, not the front, using the back should bring the front round

[JakeRS]

I've been riding for 5 months after a big accident which scuppered my confidence somewhat.

Now it's got to decent enough weather to be riding the SV fast and well, I've started leaning more and more.

I never expect to get my knee down, nor am I going to try. However my toe sliders came into good use yesterday on a few roundabouts :) confidence back :D

[DanAbnormal]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering. Unless you are racing you should not need to brake hard into the apex etc etc. If you find your corner speed a little hot lightly apply the back break. Many a people have binned it from grabbing a handful of the front and washing out. Get all your speed/gears and body position sorted before the corner. You should not upset the balance while in the corner. Look through the corner and accelerate through. But keep doign what you are doing, practicing leaning a little more each time until you feel happy and confident. Remember 99% of the time the bike can outride your skill.

Best of luck.

[JakeRS]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering.

As would I, well known fact in both road and off road racing

[Stormspiel]

Started pushing mine harder and harder lately. Find it pretty fluent now dropping into corners at pace and have learnt the lines round the roads near me i've been taking 2 of the roundabouts at 60+ :twisted: (1/2 mile visibility in all directions leading up and nice sweeping bend in/out of both) My toe sliders are looking very sorry for themselves but i still can't get that elusive knee-down. Can't wait till summer when the tyres are stickier and there's less crap on the roads.

[DanAbnormal]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering.

As would I, well known fact in both road and off road racing

Next time the MotoGP is on though watch the onboard cam of the braking hand. They brake hard right upto the apex!!! Christ knows how they do that.

Storm: The knee down is actually quite easy. Just make sure you get your body in position before the corner. The most common mistake people make is to try and lean off the bike like a baboon when in fact you should try to swivel yourself around the tank. Grip the tank with the leg that is not going to scrape the deck and also use your elbow on the tank to hold you onto the bike too. Once you have the technique you actually lean the bike less that you probably do now. The only thing with the SV is that the stock fron is a little wallowy and moves aorund a little so make sure you have a sturdy grip on the bars but not a death grip! Maybe I should open a knee down school, I've managed it even on my GN250! Just as a note it serves no purpose on the road other than showing off. But it feels and looks quite cool. :D

[fizzwheel]

Thing is, how to hell do you brake hard while cornering? I.e you have a long curve that progressivly gets tighter. You can't back off before the corner, you'd end up stopped.

You cant breaking hard whilst in a corner is the quickest way to fall off especially if you use the front brake.

Its much better to get your entry speed right before you get into the corner and then use tricks like looking forward and using the hedges or telepgraph poles to work out if the corner tighens or opens out.

Another tip is to look at the vanishing point of the corner and ask yourself is that gong away from me or towards me. If its coming towards you the corner is getting tighter if its going away from you the corner is opening out.

Once you've worked out whats going on with the corner and the corner opens out progressivly and gently wind on the throttle and accelerate away from the apex of the corner.

If you do get it wrong. Use the back brake to slow you and tighen your line, Also never ever snap the throttle shut. Gently roll it off and then gently roll it on again once you have adjusted your line. What you want to do is minimise unsettling the bike on its suspension. Snapping the throttle and big throttle opening is the quickest way of doing this.

Just take it easy and build your confidence up gently. You might what to think about some more training or a police observed ride something like a bikesafe course as you'll get loads of tips and advice that way.

HTH

[fizzwheel]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering.

As would I, well known fact in both road and off road racing

Next time the MotoGP is on though watch the onboard cam of the braking hand. They brake hard right upto the apex!!! Christ knows how they do that.

Because they are more skilled riders than us mere mortals. Also the suspension is better on a Moto GP bike.

I've noticed on the GSXR you can carry more front brake into a corner as the front suspension is better. But its still not someting I would recommend doing.

[Daimo]

Oh yeah, i understand braking while corning is a bad idea, but minimal braking?

I have no confidence in the back brake, it just doesn't work all that good imo. Inspires no confidence.

The roads i was using is fully open, you can see ever corner from all points so you can judge where the line is well.

Its just they are long progressive corners, and the more i worked on the line and brake, the slower i got through the corners ending up at a snails pace. That meant theres no way i could really get the bike over.

Having flatspots (motorway riding) doesn't help either as tipping it in doesn't feel smooth.

It'll come in time, need more practice RIDING instead of commuting

[DanAbnormal]

Most of it Daimo is confidence and experience. As was said only use the brak if you need it. Concentrate on getting your entry speed (ooer!) correct that way you will not need to brake in the corner but will accelerate through it and induce more lean and bigger smiles!

Where are you based? We could always go out for some rides if you're not too far away.

Dan

[fizzwheel]

Oh yeah, i understand braking while corning is a bad idea, but minimal braking?

I have no confidence in the back brake, it just doesn't work all that good imo. Inspires no confidence.

The roads i was using is fully open, you can see ever corner from all points so you can judge where the line is well.

Its just they are long progressive corners, and the more i worked on the line and brake, the slower i got through the corners ending up at a snails pace. That meant theres no way i could really get the bike over.

Having flatspots (motorway riding) doesn't help either as tipping it in doesn't feel smooth.

It'll come in time, need more practice RIDING instead of commuting

My back brake was like that when I first got he SV the more I used it the more I got used to how it felt. It might be that the rear caliper has got bit stiff or is seizing up over winter. Take it off and give it a good clean or get a mechanic to check if for you if you dont know what you are doing with it. You'd be surprised just how effective a dab of rear brake is.

If you've got your corner entry speed right you wont need to brake in the corner. You can use the throttle to hold your speed steady and then use it drive you out of the corner once you have passed the Apex of the bend. Remeber the SV has alot of engine braking so you can just roll the thorttle off to slow yourself a little as well as braking for the next bend in a sequence of bends.

Squared off tyres wont help though.

Just take it steady and slowly and let the bike flow through the bends rather than trying to control its speed all the time with the brakes. Go through the whole sequence of corners at a slower speed and see how it feels. Someobdy once said to me to go faster you must first go slow.

Its just practice and confidence. Wait a few more weeks for the roads to warm up properly and you'll find with some more heat in your tyres you'll build your confidence up.

[Daimo]

Some very good advice there, but all makes perfect sense.

I may go on the roads again on the way home tonight and have another play, but this time at a slower overall pace. I'll work on the lines and entry then, cheers :)

Dan, thanks, im in Kent so a bit far :lol: Im really hoping to get to a few of the meets this year though. Just got to get the fairing re-sprayed.

[Kate]

Here's my 2p's worth, I'm getting back into riding after my accident too.

Front brake - don't grab it, you'll come off. However, if you need to come upright in a hurry then you can 'tap' the front brake and that will bring you upright. However, when I discussed this with a riding instructor, its not something thats actually easy to do, its far easier to try and then come off rather than get it right. I've done it in an emergency and it did work.

This may sound daft, but what gear are you in? Try being in a lower gear and using the throttle to control your speed through the corner rather than the brakes.

[thor]

Ok, going to go out on a limb here...

I've used the front brake hard in corners on my scooter and bicycle. I've still managed to steer by "counter-counter"(?) steering. Basically to turn left, I brake hard on the front and push hard on the right bar. I'm I just dreaming this? On some slippery surfaces I've felt the front slip a bit doing this, but it still seems to work.

Needless to say, I've not managed to do this on the SV. :shock:

[wtdafk]

hi intresting post, i find i lose confidence on right handers as i fear my head will be taken off by oncomming traffic, how can i combat this, ive tryed using the far right of the road but that has usally got bits of gravel and all sorts. also being so far over that side seems to leave far less margin for error as i found my sv tends to lose its line quite easily, ive found myself leaning in to the left handers and in to the right handers that i can see ahead but the blind right handers i find my self leaning to the left and counter stearing to the right is u get my drift kinda like a off road style, i dont have any trouble with roundabouts tho my boots are nearly worn away!

[DanAbnormal]

As an advanced rider they teach you to move to the left on right handers but be mindful of the road surface. I know what you mean about margin for error but this is usually just your mind knowing that you have less room so you are more wary of it. If you;re looking deep into the corner though you should be fine, just don't stare at the kerb or you'll end up in it.

[GSXR Carlos]

Because they are more skilled riders than us mere mortals. Also the suspension is better on a Moto GP bike.



and the track doesn't have potholes or oil on it

[Peter Henry]

Daimo...

You might have little confidance in your back brake but oddly that should give the confidance to be willing to "trail" it a little if required for the reducing apex bends.

Crucial here is smoothness and not trying to push the pedal to the floor!


As mentioned by the folks, positioning and approach speed are 90% of navigating any bend, with the type of bend your having problems with try letting yourself drop the bike in to the initial bend later than you normally do and give yourself as wide an entry position as possible.

If you get to the point that more lean is needed then if you force yourself to continue looking where you want to go and not at what you migh hit......simply lean a touch more with your upper body...this will in itself provide a little more counter steer without you realising it.

Dont be concerned about rolling off the gas,just gently apply a touch of rear brake.

Good luck and let us all know if you notice any improvement. :wink:

[Ed]

Good tips from Peter, he sent them to me a while back and I have been practising them. Far from perfect, but much improved.

As for the front brake - :oops: - wish I'd known and acted on that before 7 June 2004 :oops: :oops:

[Fizzy Fish]

an advanced riding tutor once told me that if you can get round the corner on the brakes you can get round it off them. What he was talking about is just the sort of situation you suggest, when your speed is fine for the bend until it suddenly starts to tighten up

Since then this is something I have always gone with and it hasn't let me down once, despite a few scary moments! For most of us the bike is better than we are, and even though you're panicing inside the bike is perfectly capable of getting you round.

The key thing is to fight the urge to tense up - relax yourself and your arms and look ahead as far as you can round the bend. Instead of braking, ease off the throttle slightly which will help scrub off some speed - don't close it totally though or you'll load the weight over the front wheel. Concentrate on being relaxed and watching where you want to go (not the large tree at the side of the road!) and this should see you right.

As Fizzwheel mentioned, if you're not sure what the bend does go in slower - it's much more enjoyable accelerating out than having a brown trouser moment because you went in too fast!!

[Daimo]

Cool tips Peter, i'll try it later on.

I got bored at lunch, below is a rough idea of what i mean. Blue being Braking...

Am i on the right track (i know the lines are hard to tell). Where it says 90 ish, thats the corner im having issue with. Going round in a clockwise direction.

http://images17.fotki.com/v293/photos/4/48802/199442/Track-vi.jpg

Just gonna take some more practice at lower speeds methinks.

[fizzwheel]

I reckon you're about right but its hard to tell as I dont know that bit of road.

It may be that you are breaking in the right place but because of your lack of confidence maybe you are being over cautious and braking to hard.

Try braking earlier and being more gentle with the brake and try and be smoother with your inputs to the throttle, brake and handlebars.

Its just practice try not to over analyse what you are doing. Relax as others have said and try not to fight the bike.

Try going through the corner slower as I said before find a speed that you are comfotable at that allows you to pick a good line. Gradually over time increase your speed making a note of roughly where each time you brake.

I wouldnt keep riding the same piece of road over and over again. Maybe try it two or three times then go off on a longer run and stretch your legs and the bike a bit and come back later on.

Remembering riding a bike is supposed to be fun :wink:

I would IMHO say that you have the right idea though.

Edit looking at that again, Personally I would be finishing my braking where you are starting yours and having my entry speed right for the flick onto the roundabout as thats the sharpest point in that bend.

Again just my interpretation.

Have you got a mate who you could follow and watch their line and ask them what they are doing on that bit of road.

[Peter Henry]

Daimo...Fizz's suggestion of getting your braking over and done with sooner is a VERY good one. Doing that you and the bike are nicely settled just waiting for you to lean her in. The less you have to do and think about as you enter a corner the better.

You will have this sorted before you know it. Don't worry about speed, work on being smooth...speed will then naturally follow as you grow in confidance. :wink:

[Daimo]

YEah i've got my old man, he used to race bikes so can give me some pointers, but he's currently having some of his spine chopped off in an operation, it'll be a while lol.....

Sods bloody law, raining now :evil: Bang goes my friday night fun ride home.

Im cool with racing lines etc, all clued up in that, and im very good with the car and lines, but actually DOING it on a bike is a lot different im discovering lol...

I think i'll go back when its dryer and concentrate more on making my braking and throttle more smoother. I'll be braking earlier, and as you say, from there on the speed will eventually come.

Top advice, cheers lads 8) :thumbsup:

[Daimo]

PS, anyone in NW Kent who wants to know my little "track" then check page 1 :wink:

[DanAbnormal]

Crikey, when it said 90ish I though that was your entry speed!!! I was thinking 'no wonder he has to brake while cornering!'.

Silly me.

:D

[Daimo]

Ummm, thats the peak speed on the straight, then im on the brakes, but not tooo hard as the curve is tight.

[fizzwheel]

Ummm, thats the peak speed on the straight, then im on the brakes, but not tooo hard as the curve is tight.

How many metres is it do you reckon from where you start to brake to the give way line at the roundabout ?

[jim@55]

daimo ,as prev posted ..have the bike in a lower gear (3rd instead of 4th or whatever )and you can use the throttle to 'roll off 'some speed and have more control over ur speed ,rather than braking mid bend its far safer to just roll off the gas (though not ideal)and use the engine braking .thats the biggest and best tip ive had from a fast rider about going in too fast,get set up and in the right gear so that u can either
(1)get on the gas when safe to do so ,or
(2)roll off to slow down even more
try not to go into a bend in too high a gear,you know what i mean(40 mph in top )and have very little engine braking ,try it ,it works :wink:

[DanAbnormal]

Just go steady and watch for traffic on those roundabouts. Looks like a good kneedown track for a early Sunday morning. :D

[mattSV]

Daimo wrote:-

Im cool with racing lines etc, all clued up in that, and im very good with the car and lines, but actually DOING it on a bike is a lot different im discovering lol...

And trying to do racing lines on the road is not always the quickest/safest route. Have a think about doing a Bikesafe course - I did one about three years ago, and learnt loads about braking, gears, road positioning, cornering etc - it made my riding a bit quicker, but a hell of a lot smoother. It taught me to prepare better/earlier for corners, and has reduced the number of BTMs I have had.

Braking with the front in a corner on most bikes tends to make them sit up and run wide - not what you want on a tightening bend. Higher spec bikes with better chassis/suspension/brakes are not so prone to this (note to self - do NOT try to outbrake Fizzwheel or Peter Henry :wink: )



BTM = brown trouser moment

[Stig]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering.

As would I, well known fact in both road and off road racing

I use the front brake in corners loads of times. It's all about timing and speed. If you learn to do it properly, there is no reason why you can not use both brakes into a corner.

I would say that it's all down to knowing your bike and knowing your limits. Judge your speed and braking correctly and there is no reason why braking into corners is not possible.

[TC3]

If i find i have entered a roundabout or corner too fast i just countersteer and fix my gaze to a point that the bike will steer towards and not the kerb...obvious i know :D

[GSXR Carlos]

If i find i have entered a roundabout or corner too fast i just countersteer and fix my gaze to a point that the bike will steer towards and not the kerb...obvious i know :D

but the hardest thing to do 8)

[Gnan]

i wouldn't be riding at 90 mate there if you've not got confidence at the moment, all it'll take is one mistake and you won't be getting on the bike ever again - as others have said, bikesafe will be a good start or read roadcraft :)

[21QUEST]

Sorry can't add much to what has already been said.

One thing I will add is possibly to leave the bike in a gear where you don't actually have to change down. Even if it means the bike is screaming a bit(or just reduce you max speed) by the time you have to start braking. One less thing to think about.

Best of all would be to take some additional training. That's what I'll do. Good luck :thumbsup:




I use the front brake in corners loads of times. It's all about timing and speed. If you learn to do it properly, there is no reason why you can not use both brakes into a corner.

I would say that it's all down to knowing your bike and knowing your limits. Judge your speed and braking correctly and there is no reason why braking into corners is not possible.

Same here. In fact my bikes are normally set up with that in mind.


I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering. Unless you are racing you should not need to brake hard into the apex etc etc..

I'll agree with the above but do you really think anyone does brake hard into the apex on the road?

Many a people have binned it from grabbing a handful of the front and washing out.
Best of luck.

Exactly , you don't grab a handful. Only practise can make you better at using the brakes.

IMO a few accidents can be avoided if people were better at using there brakes. When the brain has be trained to accept only use your brakes when upright then when a situation arises that calls for it then all bets are off IMO :?:

Even if you don't routinely brake into corners/tipping in it's a useful skill to have IMO. I'll add not just getting on the brakes but also coming off the brakes.

Personally , I practise being able to smoothly get on the brakes , reduce reduce braking and increase then braking(NB you are never off the brakes). It becomes almost second nature after a few years :lol: . It's all about practising and training your mind so in situations where the untrained(mind) and unpractised rider would panic , you don't.

Cheers
Ben

[caines]

I have to say aswell I use the front brake in corners if I need to, its way more precise than using the rear brake. In fact sometimes I intentionally use the front brake as im slowing down and leaning into the apex ( curb in this case lol ), just have to be progressive with loading up the front wheel. If you snatch it - of course your gonna lock the front and fall off.

I can think of a few times ive leaned it right into a corner and realised the other side of it all the traffic has stopped and without the front brake I would of definately crashed, so to me ruling it out as a vice in a corner aint a good move?

[Daimo]

i wouldn't be riding at 90 mate there if you've not got confidence at the moment, all it'll take is one mistake and you won't be getting on the bike ever again - as others have said, bikesafe will be a good start or read roadcraft :)

The confidence of riding a bike isn't the issue. I commute 26 miles each way every day and are fine riding a bike.

The confidence is riding smooth and fast without upsetting anything, being able to lean the bike over confidently etc..

PS, i went back there friday, roads dried. Concentrated on making the braking and lines smoother.

I think its gonna take some practice :lol: But it will come with time. No plans on stopping riding 8)

[thor]

This weekend I think I cracked the whole speed/entry into the corner thing. For me, the key was to find a gear that appropriate for that road (so I didn't need to keep upsetting the bike with changes) and not to launch it on every straight. I got into a rhythm, did most of the braking with the throttle, got my road positioning right for visibility (even tried some "off siding"), looked for vanishing points and tree lines etc. I got a lot smoother and that helps massively.

[K]

I got into a rhythm, did most of the braking with the throttle...

Heh heh, this is where I get into trouble when I'm on the SV - by 'trouble' I mean others tell me off! :oops:

On the rare times I'm out with someone else, with them following, the conversations when we rest up tend to go something like this:

Them: "Don't you ever brake when approaching a corner! I nearly ran up your **** a number of times cos your brake light never seems to come on and I'm faced with a sharp bend, you've slowed down and no warning!"

Me: "Look ahead + correct gear = V-Twin engine braking & no brake light."

I must add that I usually mutter under my breath "Try doing the first bit and you won't end up sitting on my tailpipe!" :oops:

[kwak zzr]

I would say never, ever use the front brake while cornering.

As would I, well known fact in both road and off road racing

I use the front brake in corners loads of times. It's all about timing and speed. If you learn to do it properly, there is no reason why you can not use both brakes into a corner.

I would say that it's all down to knowing your bike and knowing your limits. Judge your speed and braking correctly and there is no reason why braking into corners is not possible.

ive over cooked a few corners last year and needed the front brake to stop myself becoming part of the hedge row, the sv handles better than i thought with the front brake cornering.

[thegibdog]

I wouldn't say I'm the most proficient rider, but I have to say I hardly ever use my brakes. I find the engine braing more than enough for most occasions, but then I never realy push that hard - at least I haven't for the last six months! The only time I rally use my brakes is for stopping at junctions! I just try to keep it in the right gear and keep it as smooth as possible.

[Biker Biggles]

I would'nt advocate braking into corners except on a track and if you know what you are doing.The rule is get your braking and gear changing done and dusted in a straight line and then turn in to the apex.Power on to exit.If you must brake while turning then very gentle application is required,really little more than a steadying effect.The rationale is that a tyre only has so much grip, and this can be exploited as side or turning grip or fore and aft (braking or accelerating) grip.Use both at once and the tyre is rapidly overwhelmed.

Unless your name is Rossi.

[Ward8124]

I have a major confidence problem on the corners too especialy after my bus incident......i just keep thinking the front wheel is gonna go from underneath me all the time and also metal covers scare the **** out of me to when im cornering too.....

[kwak zzr]

if i'm in mid corner and see a metal cover it puts a shiver down my spine too, the worst tho was when i was doing an island and i ran over a squashed drinks can with my front tyre, the front slid a tad and i filled my shorts! stay'd on tho.