Insurance loophole ? Buy bigger bike have on old Mans name ?

[SpankyHam]

Hello!

I have been looking at buying a Ducati 748 for quite a while now.
Finally I have the cash for one, but I can't afford the Insurance.

Cheapest quote for me (22)
£1600 (That is with not being completely honest)
£2400 ( That is declaring the real annual mileage, use for commuting & not locked in a Garage over night)

These are TP & TH only. And I have about 20 quotes these are the cheapest.

Anyway I have been thinking....

As my current insurance policy says I am insured to ride any bike TP.

So I was going to buy a 748. Register it to the Owner: My wife's Dad - he is around 55 years old & has a Garage :P I would buy one that already comes with 12 months Road Tax So he doesn't need to be insured on it.

Now the big question:

Would this work ?

:oops: (hiding)

[Anonymous]

Hey buddy,

Interesting idea - and i thought of the a similar thing when i got my first bike. However 2.5 years fluttering between working in General Insurance Claims and Life Assurance & Investments taught me otherwise.

The answer to your question in one word... No. It wouldnt not work.

The TP element on a "any other motorcycle" section is only valid if the owner of the other bike is ALSO insured on the machine of which hes the registered owner/keeper.

Your Dad would have to be insured on the vehicle for you to legally ride it on your TP section.

Sorry. Nice idea though isnt it.

GYKD.

[mysteryjimbo]

Bite the bullet. If you cant afford to insure yourself, you cant afford to get it serviced, you cant afford repairs when you drop it etc.

So don't do it.

Plain and simple, get something you can afford. There are better bikes. Ducati is a more about name and image and less about performance, reliability and usability.

[Sudoxe]

Cant help.

Bike price = cost of bike + cost of running + insurance.

Sorry dude!

Dan

[K]

You could just buy it and put it in you livingroom as some kind of wierd, fancy looking chair!

Potentially it's the best place for a Ducati as then it won't go wrong! :wink:

Waits for PH to come along... then decides to run for it instead! :P

[Filipe M.]

There are better bikes. Ducati is a more about name and image and less about performance, reliability and usability.

You could just buy it and put it in you livingroom as some kind of wierd, fancy looking chair!

Potentially it's the best place for a Ducati as then it won't go wrong! :wink:

Waits for PH to come along... then decides to run for it instead! :P

Oh boy, this will get nasty... :shock: :shock: :shock:

[SpankyHam]

There are better bikes. Ducati is a more about name and image and less about performance, reliability and usability.

I am completely aware of that & that is the reason why I want it :lol:

I'm not worried about service/ parts costs. As I'm capable to do the servicing myself. plenty of parts on fleebay - some even cheaper than sv parts.

@getyerkneedown

Thanks for the info, very helpful.


right so I will be looking at putting him as the owner & get him to insure it.

Should still work out cheaper than if I do it under my name.

That way I can keep the SV for commuting & have the Ducati for the Sunday rides :D

(I just hope my wife won't read this :lol: :lol: :lol: )

[lynw]

Great idea until you bin it or someone takes you out. For a bike like that I wouldnt consider TP only.

Not that I would consider ever owning a Ducati tbh. I really dont see the appeal.

*joins K in hiding from PH :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS. Im presuming your wifes dad does actually have a licence too? Otherwise he wont be getting any insurance.

[Quiff Wichard]

oooooooooooooooo there will be fireworks

I am chatting to Pete in MSN-

hes on his way here NOW !



sits back- lights touch paper and retires.. :lol:

[Quiff Wichard]

OOOOOOOO ITS BEEN A WHILE

I SENSE A FRENZIED TYPING SPREE IN MARBELLA..



AND A TIRADE OF DUCATI DEFENSE APPEARING IN A FEW MINUTES..

[Filipe M.]

*puts on dark glasses, sits back and enjoys the fireworks*

8)

[Halonic]

You are only 22!!??!??!!!!

christ I'll be 30 in december :cry:

[Anonymous]

22 and married.. poor poor sod.

:wink: :P

[mysteryjimbo]

Still, none of this is ethical. As soon as an insurer smells the rat they'd do a runner and leave you with no bike or money.

[Peter Henry]

*pops head around door,wondering why everyone has just dived for cover*

Well lucky me! I have stumbled into a thread containing sensible,educative and knowledgeable comments being passed regarding all things Ducati. :shock:

Please carry on, I might learn a lot via some of the wise, sage like offerings from the likes of MysteryJimbo,who quite possibly doesn't know the difference between a Termi and a can of Tuna! :wink: :P :P :P


BTW...K....You have wounded me deeper than you will ever know! :? But what agreat idea for a lounge centre piece? :P

[Quiff Wichard]

when Mrs Quiff gets in she will read this...and maybe have more ire( nice crossword word that!) than Mr Henry .... she is an imsurance broker...

and they know this goes on and have systems in place..etc etc ...... and if u get found out u wont get insured again ! they share information(legally )

[Anonymous]

*pops head around door,wondering why everyone has just dived for cover*

Well lucky me! I have stumbled into a thread containing sensible,educative and knowledgeable comments being passed regarding all things Ducati. :shock:

Please carry on, I might learn a lot via some of the wise, sage like offerings from the likes of MysteryJimbo,who quite possibly doesn't know the difference between a Termi and a can of Tuna! :wink: :P :P :P

:-s

:-k

You mean there is one? :?

8-[








:P :wink:

[Peter Henry]

BTW...I forgot to mention.....Lynw.....That's it between you and I! [-(

[mysteryjimbo]

*pops head around door,wondering why everyone has just dived for cover*

Well lucky me! I have stumbled into a thread containing sensible,educative and knowledgeable comments being passed regarding all things Ducati. :shock:

Please carry on, I might learn a lot via some of the wise, sage like offerings from the likes of MysteryJimbo,who quite possibly doesn't know the difference between a Termi and a can of Tuna! :wink: :P :P :P


BTW...K....You have wounded me deeper than you will ever know! :? But what agreat idea for a lounge centre piece? :P

Its obviously not from the newer more reliable range else he'd be able to afford the insurance.... :lol:

[Peter Henry]

Jimbo....You back tracking mate? :wink: :P

The 748 was not without the odd problem that is for sure,however show me any bike or model that isn't? We can all be unlucky.

Getting back to Patrick's original question...your suggested ploy is fundamentally wrong in so many ways. To be honest I cannot beleive any intelligent person would ask the question on a public forum, when the subject to me appears to be not only morally wrong but legally also.


As mentioned you bin it etc. and the knock on affect is to every other bikers insurance in the long run. :?

[timwilky]

As far as I am concerned, what you are contemplating is fraud

If you cannot afford the insurance, you cannot afford the bike.

Get a bike you can afford to insure, clock up some NCB and saddle time and then get the bike you want as and when you can afford it.

Look at it this way, you on your uninsured 748 (Yes you are uninsured, as it if fraudently obtained) then have an accident. Is it fair for the poor sod you hit, or thier loved ones to have to make a claim for the pitance the MIB offer. When properly insured their injuries/losses would be properly compensated for.

Grow up, and accept that with owning a bike also come an obligation to society to responsible ownership.

[Supervox]

As far as I am concerned, what you are contemplating is fraud

Sorry Tim - but the above is a bit strong !!

Yes, it may be morally against the principle of insurance - but it certainly ISN'T illegal !!

I'm sure there are those among the org who remember back to the 80's when it wasn't at all uncommon for someone to own a cheapish or small bike & have it insured etc & for their other half or parent to own a nice new shiny sportsbike that could be ridden on their TP entitlement.
I believe this is why TP entitlement on other bikes is not automatic now with all policies - I believe it at least partly depends on what you are insured on yourself !!

However, as has been already stated the obvious downside of this is if you have an accident that is of your own making - cos not only will you have find the money to replace your own bike - but also make good any repairs to other vehicles involved.

Besides Patrick - why not just spend the money on getting the Banana Fiat done up ?? :P

[Anonymous]

Can i just claify things.

The 748 would be insured by his wifes dad. Patrick would ride it under his insurance policy which allows him Third Party cover on any other machine.

There is nothing morally wrong with this at all.

If he crashes, the 3rd person would claim of Patricks insurance, thus putting up his OWN premium. The damage to the 748 could possibly be claimed by his wifes dad on his own policy - as the bike is insured by him remember.

There is nothing illegal or immoral about this at all, as all parties will have adequate cover.

Its no different to say me borrowing my friends machine. I had TP cover on any other machine, he was insured on his own machine. So legally i can ride it. If i crash, every eventuality is covered and all aspects are insured and legal.

The only difference here is that Patrick will be using the 748 pretty much full time.

Of course, there may be an issue where Patricks wifes dad comes to get insurance, if he's not got a license.. the whole plan could fall apart and he may not be able to get cover.

If he DID get cover.. its all legal.

I know this as i worked in Insurance Claims for 6 months. Its not me speculating, its pure FACT.

HTH

[SpankyHam]

Just to clarify:

There is nothing wrong with my idea not morally nor legally.

All i asked for was if it is possible to do it like i posted in my original thread. As my insurance policy says I 'm insured on any bike TP.

Now I'm fully aware that if i bin it, i'll have to pay for all repair costs.
But if I'm involved in an accident/ my fault & a third party is involved - my insurance will cover for the TP.

£2000 insurance / year is just taking the ****. that's all.


I just phoned my current insurance company & they clarified this for me :P


Sc~€\|\| you guys, I'm going home
http://hometown.aol.com/huppmoile/images/cartman.jpg

@ Supervox

The Fiat Banana is SOLD... :lol:

[timwilky]

I don't think it is a bit strong.


Read the wording of most policies regarding thirdy part cover. I quote a few

Any other motorcycle ridden by you in Great Britain, Northern Ireland.... Which does not belong to you or is not hired..., providing that your current certificate of motor insurance indicates that you can ride such motorcycle


Any other motorcycle ridden by you in Great Britain, Northern Ireland.... Which does not belong to you or is not hired..., providing that your current certificate of motor insurance indicates that you can ride such vehicle

Therefore you must tell them in advance the motorcycle you wish to ride and have it named on your insurance certificate.


I am well aware that many people seem to think they have a general TP cover for other bikes. Please read your policy documents

[SpankyHam]

As I said I just clarified this with my insurance.

I just noticed your post getyerkneedown we must have written it at the same time. Very well put together. ANd yes he has a bike licence. (As i said I've been planning to get a 748 for quite a while, so this idea didn't just come in mto my mind:) )

To me it's stupid paying £2000 a year insurance on a bike that's only worth £3000.

Just for fun i tried fully comp. - Cheapest quote £2600 600 Excess :lol:

If I really bin it i can buy a new bike with that money! & my insurance premium doesn't go up.

But thank you for your concerns anyway. :wink:

[lynw]

Sorry but I consider it to be fraud and dishonest.

The point is youre covered third party for a bike you DO NOT own.

You DO own, or will, the Ducati. The fact you choose to have the registered keeper as someone else doesnt change the fact you are lying to your insurers about ownership.

But then I dont expect GYKD who considers lying to the Revenue to avoid paying his taxes to see anything immoral in someone lying to their insurers. :roll: :P

[Peter Henry]

*INCOMING* :P

[Anonymous]

Sorry but I consider it to be fraud and dishonest.

The point is youre covered third party for a bike you DO NOT own.

You DO own, or will, the Ducati. The fact you choose to have the registered keeper as someone else doesnt change the fact you are lying to your insurers about ownership.

But then I dont expect GYKD who considers lying to the Revenue to avoid paying his taxes to see anything immoral in someone lying to their insurers. :roll: :P

:lol: :lol: I didnt lie... I merely.... erm... forgot? :oops: :wink:

Besides, if they wanted them back they'd come a knocking woudn't they?

Anyway, Lyn, what patrick is doing is not fraud. I used to work in insurance claims and know how it works. If you rang your current insurer and asked them, they'd tell you the same thing as what i wrote.

[sharriso74]

http://upload3.postimage.org/90829/Bert2.jpg (http://upload3.postimage.org/90829/photo_hosting.html)

[Halonic]

Sorry but I consider it to be fraud and dishonest.

The point is youre covered third party for a bike you DO NOT own.

You DO own, or will, the Ducati. The fact you choose to have the registered keeper as someone else doesnt change the fact you are lying to your insurers about ownership.

But then I dont expect GYKD who considers lying to the Revenue to avoid paying his taxes to see anything immoral in someone lying to their insurers. :roll: :P

ahhh but what we consider dishonest and what the law considers dishonest can quite often be completely unrelated, and as long as he adheres to the terms and conditions of his insurance policy and informs them completely of any and all changes in situation, and the insurance company agree, well, its all very much above board.

This is the system and this is how we milk it. If you play by the rules, it not your fault if the rules have gaping holes, intentional or otherwise.

of course if they put the holes there in the first place, as a snare perhaps.... well now thats just funny :twisted:

[SpankyHam]

Sorry lynw

But that's not true.

Whilst I'm paying for the bike. It will be my girlfriends Dad's bike & he will insure it.

I will ride it on Sundays. maybe sometimes during the week.

& as it says on my insurance policy - I'm legally covered for ANY bike TP.

(I spoke to my insurance company & explained them the situation. They confirmed that I will be covered.)

Well I'm sorry but i'm not stupid enough to pay 2k insurance for a 3k worth bike.

[fizzwheel]

I spoke to my insurance company & explained them the situation. They confirmed that I will be covered.

That IMHO is the most important thing. Your insurance company have said you are covered.

Still seems wrong to me but its your bike and your money as long as its legal then fair enough.

[Steve_God]

Simple answer to this:
Beat them at their own game !

We all know that the majority of people you speak to that give you the quote are call-centre monkeys with a computer infront of them - well one day one of them is going to make a balls-up of it !
Happened with me ! :D

Me:
Brand New SV650s - First bike - had licence 3 months - Age 20 - Fully Comp.
Pretty much not in the greatest position for insurance - only things going for me was a locked brick garage and the postcode area.

First few quotes ranged from £1000 to £2200 - The bike itself is only worth £4500 !
Kept ringing and ringing round till I got some decent ones of around £800 with breakdown recovery.

Then I came across a call back from an internet quote - gave them extra details and they said they could get it down to £730 - but £680 if I paided straight away! And this was including breakdown cover too. So I said yes straight away and paid for it. Afterwards he ran through the details to confirm - and he said 'Third Party', I stopped him and reminded him that I'd said fully comp. Got his supervisor to listen through the call and rang back, and they had to honour it as I had said fully comp! Only difference was they raised the excess by £50 to £400 !

Just keep ringing and ringing and ringing round... and you'll get through to a half-asleep monkey ! :D

[pegasus]

i am a bit confused that some of you feel you can not get insurance without a license ( are you sure? ) i cant understand this at all...i can understand that you would need the license to endorse the insurance in the event of a riding accident..but lets just say for example that your father has left you an inheritance of a brough superior...you dont have a license..so you keep it off the road in a secured garage..surely you are going to want to protect your investment from fire or theft?...and the only way to do that? ............. with insurance. :?:

[Anonymous]

i am a bit confused that some of you feel you can not get insurance without a license ( are you sure? ) i cant understand this at all...i can understand that you would need the license to endorse the insurance in the event of a riding accident..but lets just say for example that your father has left you an inheritance of a brough superior...you dont have a license..so you keep it off the road in a secured garage..surely you are going to want to protect your investment from fire or theft?...and the only way to do that? ............. with insurance. :?:

Some, not all, but some insurers wont give you cover unless they see your driving license and that you have the correct entitlements etc.

[mysteryjimbo]

Says on the V5 that the registered keeper is not necessarily the owner. The V5 therefore should state the address where the vehicle is kept predominantly to be legal.

[pegasus]

i am a bit confused that some of you feel you can not get insurance without a license ( are you sure? ) i cant understand this at all...i can understand that you would need the license to endorse the insurance in the event of a riding accident..but lets just say for example that your father has left you an inheritance of a brough superior...you dont have a license..so you keep it off the road in a secured garage..surely you are going to want to protect your investment from fire or theft?...and the only way to do that? ............. with insurance. :?:

Some, not all, but some insurers wont give you cover unless they see your driving license and that you have the correct entitlements etc.

thanx for your reply gykd ..... however ........ in all my 18 year riding and driving experience i have not yet been asked for a copy of my license by any of my insurers..but i do accept your point of view and it does make perfect sense.

[Anonymous]

i am a bit confused that some of you feel you can not get insurance without a license ( are you sure? ) i cant understand this at all...i can understand that you would need the license to endorse the insurance in the event of a riding accident..but lets just say for example that your father has left you an inheritance of a brough superior...you dont have a license..so you keep it off the road in a secured garage..surely you are going to want to protect your investment from fire or theft?...and the only way to do that? ............. with insurance. :?:

Some, not all, but some insurers wont give you cover unless they see your driving license and that you have the correct entitlements etc.

thanx for your reply gykd ..... however ........ in all my 18 year riding and driving experience i have not yet been asked for a copy of my license by any of my insurers..but i do accept your point of view and it does make perfect sense.

I agree... ive only been asked once since i started driving aged 17 (23 now), but i know its getting more and more popular for them to check.

[Dicky Ticker]

Patric,Would it be cheaper to reg&insure in Austria? at your parents house, as most eec insurance policies from the other side of the puddle have no restriction about driving in member states Ok you would be on Austrian plates but that could be an advantage

Unless its a right hand drive Ducati :lol:

[Jelster]

When you make a claim you will be asked for a copy of your licence (I was).

If his Father-in-Law is the registered keeper, and it is insured in his name then there is no legal (or moral) reason why he can't ride it, as long as his insurance covers it. My policy covers me TP on any other motorcycle as long as:

a) I'm riding it with the owners permission

b) The bike is insured by the registered keeper/owner.

It may not be in the spirit of the law, but it is legal.

.

[SpankyHam]

Patric,Would it be cheaper to reg&insure in Austria? at your parents house, as most eec insurance policies from the other side of the puddle have no restriction about driving in member states Ok you would be on Austrian plates but that could be an advantage

Unless its a right hand drive Ducati :lol:

yes Mac it would cost me 300€ fully comp !!!!!!!!

Already asked :wink:
Downside is: I would have to ride to Austria once a year for the Austrian equivalent of the UK MOT.

I don't want to put that much mileage on the bike tough....

What am I still doing here.... Any drugs out there that make someone learn a foreign language any quicker ? (for the wife... :lol: )

[Dicky Ticker]

Me, I never had any problem with the language as I become quite fluid after enough beer :lol:


Probably get you a good deal with one of the Gratz drivers=bike in trailor =no miles Meals and beers enroute

Only do it the once and then try and re-insure in this country OR------
do it in Holland or France ,Belgium

[Warren]

carol nash, and a few other companys wouldnt insure my g/f's SV TPFT when she didnt have a licence,
they wouldnt even insure her for theft alone without a licence.

[glade]

this all seems above board to me so why not??

What IS dodgy is when people get someone else to insure a vehicle then drive as a NAMED DRIVER so they pay less.

i've heard that insurance companies are getting wise to this and will often do checks... e.g. ask the neighbours "who usually uses that car" they reply "the lad who lives there" and bingo. invalid insurance.

[carelesschucca]

Still seems wrong to me but its your bike and your money as long as its legal then fair enough.

Its not his bike, its his father-in-laws :wink: :wink:

[El Saxo]

Here's one you could try, although as the situation relates to my car it might not translate to bike insurance... :?

When ringing around for car insurance, i found the cheapest quote i could get (as you do) - car owned by me, registered in my name, insurance in my name.

When i was pretty happy with the details of the policy etc, i asked the insurance co. how much it would be to add my mum as a named driver so that she could use the car occasionally if she needed to. I was very surprised to learn that it actually reduced the premium cost by around £100! Now, I have been totally upfront with the insurance co. about the fact that my mum might not ever use the car, but just adding her name on the policy brings the price down?? Nothing immoral / illegal there that i can see. I am 25 (was 23 at the time) and mum's in her 50's (sorry mum :wink: ).

Might be worth trying this with the duke and see what happens...

[lynw]

As for the foreign idea, be prepared for Customs to come calling to verify your foreign registered bike had VAT paid on it in the country of origin. And if you havent because you were exporting it - so avoided paying VAT there - expect a bill and/or seizure of said bike.

Oh and there are rules about how long you can keep one here before registering it with a UK plate. With the increase in use of ANPR expect to be tracked and monitored - if youre over the time threshold that will flag a stop.