Cornering? Leaning? HELP

[HalesowenNick87]

I got my sv650 k2 a few weeks ago and am begining to get confident and comfy on it, im very happy with it... but i struggle getting it to go round islands and turn sharp bends... mostly im alright but i need a few pointers like.. should i lean the bike or.. i dono lol.. id apreciate any hint sor tips on leaning or cornering,,, en islands... Im used to riding smaller bikes, but i dont think the weight is why im strugglin cus its a bit lighter than my last bike (1979 Honda superdream 250)? just bigger i think?

Cheers

[socommk23]

practice!!!!
thats all i can say! its what creates experience!
i never liked it myself but can now u turn in my road full lock feet up without a single thought to it!

just get out and practice.

[Diveboy]

Not that i'm the best person to give advice.

Look where you want to go not the road in front of you. I found myself doing this when I first passed

[mattSV]

Are you countersteering? :wink:

[hoodlum]

Now, I'm no riding God; in fact, i'm probably still at the pond life stage of riding evolution, but I found a technique that just clicked when I was out on Sunday, and I'm a novice rider.

When you go round the corner, try and keep your shoulders parallel with the road, it's difficult to explain, and more like the bike moving under you rather than you being glued rigidly to the seat with a broom handle up your bum up to your neck. The key (I found) is to hinge at the hips. Bum and bike go left, shoulders maintain an almost level feel to them. Bum and bike go right, shoiulders still relatively level.

I found that corners I was finding incredibly difficult just seemed to flow, I also felt safer pushing the bike lower than ever before, with none of that "this angle of lean must be beyond the laws of physics; i'm going to fall off" feeling.

Maybe i'm evolving into a walking fish right now....

[Tigerrrr.......]

Read pages 66/67 in the June issue of RiDE magazine.

Very interesting reading. The California Superbike School built a bike to prove that it's steering, not leaning, that makes a bike veer off a straight line.

Weighting the footrests, hanging off, whatever you like, makes very little difference.

Best of luck with it.

[Rog]

I think in ride this month or a month ago, there was a great article on cornering technique. Non of your fancy peg weighting and kneedown stuff. It was all about positioning correctly in the road, maximising your view of the road ahead, correct cornering speed and chasing the vanishing point. After reading it it put 5 miles an hour on my cornering speed but more importantly made me feel alot more confident.

[carelesschucca]

Counter steering is the way to go, Practise on a straight bit of road, push against the bar with the palms of your hands, pushing left hand forward to go left and right hand forward to go right and see what happens... It sounds simple which it is but a lot of people could do it better, everyone counter-steers but if you make a effort to think about it you'll improve your cornering...

I remember the first time I did it properly I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made to my riding... I giggled and laughed for hours... It also made my feel for what the front wheel was doing mile more acute

[Riley]

I think tyre choice can have an effect on handling and confidence to steer/turn too. If you've got the org. tyres on or a strange mixture of tyres, this will affect how it handles.

Have a butchers at the tyre section. I did and I'm getting new rubber fitted v. soon!

[BILLY]

Stick with trying to counter steer also try transfering your weight to the foot peg in the direction that you want to go!!!! :thumbsup:

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

And make sure you're looking where you want to go - not just at the road a few metres in front of the wheel. Once you get it sorted on a sharp right hander you'll be turning your head/lookng far to the right as you go in to the corner (not at the corner as most people start out doing) - takes a while to trust that it works and get used to it but when it's done right it makes cornering great fun.

[thepyrofish]

I'm still relatively new as well, and I keep trying to look far ahead like you say but I'm always worried there's going to be some crap on the road I might need to avoid so I have to check.

I found the first time i shifted my weight over and sat on the edge of my seat though fast cornering felt much more stable.

[wheelnut]

Counter steering is the way to go, Practise on a straight bit of road, push against the bar with the palms of your hands, pushing left hand forward to go left and right hand forward to go right and see what happens... It sounds simple which it is but a lot of people could do it better, everyone counter-steers but if you make a effort to think about it you'll improve your cornering...

I remember the first time I did it properly I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made to my riding... I giggled and laughed for hours... It also made my feel for what the front wheel was doing mile more acute

Me Too, I didnt believe that you steered the opposite way to that which you wanted to go :P

One thing I have discovered lately from some trackday photos, is that rather than leaning with the bike, I tended to push the bike down from under me. This is so wrong and I am writing 100 lines. "I must not push the bike away from me"

Do a level one at CSS and you will feel much more confident, Do a level two and get a discount off your insurance with e-bike :P

[Saint Matt]

Now, I'm no riding God; in fact, i'm probably still at the pond life stage of riding evolution, but I found a technique that just clicked when I was out on Sunday, and I'm a novice rider.

When you go round the corner, try and keep your shoulders parallel with the road, it's difficult to explain, and more like the bike moving under you rather than you being glued rigidly to the seat with a broom handle up your bum up to your neck. The key (I found) is to hinge at the hips. Bum and bike go left, shoulders maintain an almost level feel to them. Bum and bike go right, shoiulders still relatively level.
I think that's a bad idea mate. Doing that made me feel like I didnt know what the bike was doing. You should try and hang off a bit, not to go for a kneedown or nything, but because a) it will help you corner faster with less lean and b) as a result of less lean, you aren't running the risk of lowsiding as much :)

[socommk23]

Counter steering is the way to go, Practise on a straight bit of road, push against the bar with the palms of your hands, pushing left hand forward to go left and right hand forward to go right and see what happens... It sounds simple which it is but a lot of people could do it better, everyone counter-steers but if you make a effort to think about it you'll improve your cornering...

I remember the first time I did it properly I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made to my riding... I giggled and laughed for hours... It also made my feel for what the front wheel was doing mile more acute

yes...try turning on a straight bit of road!!!

"arghhhhh curb!!!!"

[cuffy]

Ive been told about the counter steer thingy but not got the bollox too try it out :oops: ...however one thing that did help me was ..For emample if im going round a right hander i'd push down on the right handle bar and vice versa for a left hander....certainly helped me out alot.
Also road positioning is a big help...go out wide and clip the apex on the way in :D

[socommk23]

i found out about counter steering on my own by riding a route that i do every year on the 272.
i was just criusing and ended going round corners one handed.
this is when you realise counter steering comes into effect as when you go round a left hand turn using just your left hand you find yourself pushing the bar away from you and vice versa!

[Fizzy Fish]

Counter steering is the way to go, Practise on a straight bit of road, push against the bar with the palms of your hands, pushing left hand forward to go left and right hand forward to go right and see what happens... It sounds simple which it is but a lot of people could do it better, everyone counter-steers but if you make a effort to think about it you'll improve your cornering...

I remember the first time I did it properly I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made to my riding... I giggled and laughed for hours... It also made my feel for what the front wheel was doing mile more acute

Sounds like this is probably what you need to try!

Although you don't need it at very slow speeds (since the bike is very upright), when you're going faster the the bars actually have to turn the wrong way to what you'd think to get round a bend.

With smaller bikes you don't really have to do much to get them round the corner, it's more like you just lean a bit and that's enough. I remember riding to a bike shop on my CG125 to take a test ride on a new bike. Off down the road and the first tight bend it was like WTF it isn't turning, agghh, and I ended up braking almost to a halt to get round!! :oops: Then I figured out the counter steer thing...

[socommk23]

Counter steering is the way to go, Practise on a straight bit of road, push against the bar with the palms of your hands, pushing left hand forward to go left and right hand forward to go right and see what happens... It sounds simple which it is but a lot of people could do it better, everyone counter-steers but if you make a effort to think about it you'll improve your cornering...

I remember the first time I did it properly I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made to my riding... I giggled and laughed for hours... It also made my feel for what the front wheel was doing mile more acute

Sounds like this is probably what you need to try!

Although you don't need it at very slow speeds (since the bike is very upright), when you're going faster the the bars actually have to turn the wrong way to what you'd think to get round a bend.

With smaller bikes you don't really have to do much to get them round the corner, it's more like you just lean a bit and that's enough. I remember riding to a bike shop on my CG125 to take a test ride on a new bike. Off down the road and the first tight bend it was like WTF it isn't turning, agghh, and I ended up braking almost to a halt to get round!! :oops: Then I figured out the counter steer thing...

yes! really! turning on a straight road! what a great idea!

[HalesowenNick87]

Thanks, lol, lots of advice... ive tried em all out.. looking up, lol ... as crazy as it sounds i didnt relise i was fixated on the ground when cornerin checking for little bumps that might make me wobble??? that helped a lot i tried slightly leaning the bike and keeping my body straight which helped too... the pushing down of the handle bars works as well but is a litlle more scary...i dont get the other thing? pressin down on the footpegs like? ... they all seem to work better with different corners.. now its just working out which one or combination to use on certain bends... im gettin there... with practice

Whats CSS? some sort of course? i wouldnt mind doin somet like that but id like to do one that isnt pass or fail just like pay ya money, turn up, learn, get a certificate? anyone herd of anything like that..?

Thanks agen

[wheelnut]

Thanks, lol, lots of advice... ive tried em all out.. looking up, lol ... as crazy as it sounds i didnt relise i was fixated on the ground when cornerin checking for little bumps that might make me wobble??? that helped a lot i tried slightly leaning the bike and keeping my body straight which helped too... the pushing down of the handle bars works as well but is a litlle more scary...i dont get the other thing? pressin down on the footpegs like? ... they all seem to work better with different corners.. now its just working out which one or combination to use on certain bends... im gettin there... with practice

Whats CSS? some sort of course? i wouldnt mind doin somet like that but id like to do one that isnt pass or fail just like pay ya money, turn up, learn, get a certificate? anyone herd of anything like that..?

Thanks agen

(CSS) California Superbike School, started by Keith Code in California. now runs schools in the UK, Europe and Scandanavia.

http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk

Training days , not Track days are held at Rockingham, Silverstone, Cadwell and Brands as well as some camps in Spain.

There are 4 levels, but even the most experienced rider has to start at level one, no trackday heroes here, just people who have learnt something from the day

[buell]

This might help you later on. :D

http://www.galnedansken.com/knee_down.htm

G.

[kciN]

I think the SV can be tipped into a corner fine, if you have the confidence! :)

I can't tip the bike as far as I'd like, yet, but I'm getting better and only do what I feel I can do. I have a tendency to tip the bike and keep my body reasonably upright, which feels comfortable and makes it smooth, going round roundabouts etc.. I don't think you really need to get your knee down to corner at normal road speeds. Tracks and high speed you need to, centrifugal forces and quicker corners....

Reason I'm adding my bit is beacuse I was lucky enough to swap my bike for a GSXR 750 (04) on a ride back yesterday, whilst my mate rode my SV. He loved it and I watched him really tip it into corners, giving me more confidence that it can be done on the V-twin.
His Gixxer had a super sticky back tyre and it gave 'me' more cornering confidence and it so powerful! A handful up to 130, that was enough for me! :shock:

[gettin2dizzy]

Read pages 66/67 in the June issue of RiDE magazine.

Very interesting reading. The California Superbike School built a bike to prove that it's steering, not leaning, that makes a bike veer off a straight line.

Weighting the footrests, hanging off, whatever you like, makes very little difference.

Best of luck with it.

never heard of this. Anyone else read it? explains why some riders are so quick without moving in the slightest

[Pedrosa]

Counter steering talk only complicate issue.

Bike will naturally have some countersteer if bike leaned or inner footrest weighted down for turn.

Rider can sit central but be putting much weight through footrests.

Countersteering as the only way to turn bike is nonsense.* Many people have be ride for many years and have no idea what countersteering is.FACT.

Conscious countersteer best left for when adjustment mid corner be needed.

*Unless supermotard/speedway type cornering be required*.

[petevtwin650]

I've been riding for over 30 years. I'm certain that I don't use countersteering. I turn the bars the way I want to go. People say that you can't turn without CS. Perhaps it's not as effective doing it the old fashioned way, but it suits me.

Attached is a pic of my mate doing a Haslam school. Knee down, clearly turning the bars into the turn.
http://www.msnusers.com/westmidsriderscouk/msgattachments/3053

[Paws]

Do a track day with the css guys.

[gettin2dizzy]

will do, hopefully next month or so :) i understand countersteering, i just hadn't heard that leaning does nothing at all. :)

[petevtwin650]

Leaning by itself will not turn the bike. But it helps together with toes on pegs. In the wet you can keep the bike more upright by hanging your weight off the bike. Trouble is moving from one side to the other can unsettle the suspension. All IMO.

[jim@55]

everybody ,if you go above say 20-30mph HAS to countersteer FACT....even those peeps that dont think theyr doing it ,what people are talking about here is concious counter steering i.e corner tightens up mid corner ,,just push on the inside bar more ,more lean and we all go home safely with a smile thinking ''i didnt know it worked as well as that''.i read the article in 'ride' as well ,as has been said hanging off /weighting footrests any other ideas dont really work on their own .to get the bike turned you MUST use the steering(when pootling aboutsteer normally ,going faster its entirely the opposite )i really dont understand the theory(gyroscopic forces and all that)but i know it works .once i tried it ,and i seen that it works very well it was a big thing for me .iv had instances where ive went in too hot and realised half way round that i was running wide ,thought i was going to hit a wall/car go hedge surfing:smt051 , **** myself ,push hard on the inside bar,the bike leans more and turns tighter ,hey presto ,im still here,.it does work ,,try it (but not (well not intentionally)in the above sitiuation)on a straight bit of road ,and it makes the bike weave like a good 'un;)

[lukemillar]

I've been riding for over 30 years. I'm certain that I don't use countersteering. I turn the bars the way I want to go. People say that you can't turn without CS. Perhaps it's not as effective doing it the old fashioned way, but it suits me.

Attached is a pic of my mate doing a Haslam school. Knee down, clearly turning the bars into the turn.
http://www.msnusers.com/westmidsriderscouk/msgattachments/3053

You do use countersteering! Otherwise you wouldn't make it round a single corner. There seems to be much confusion on this one - Everyone countersteers when they turn a bike - it's the only way to turn the bike. The big difference is whether you passively countersteer or actively countersteer - if you know what is going on and you do it actively then you can turn the bike much quicker, which has a load of advantages.

Also, with regards to the pic, you countersteer to turn the bike into a turn - then stop pushing pulling the bars once it has turned. The front wheel will then track with the road and move back into line, so it just appears that he didn't countersteer!

Anyway - back to the original poster - have a read of some of this:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/webzxr/zxr750r/Features/ridetips.html

[weazelz]

never heard of this. Anyone else read it? explains why some riders are so quick without moving in the slightest

http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/multimedia.php

see "The No Body Steer bike"

[sinbad]

I've been riding for over 30 years. I'm certain that I don't use countersteering. I turn the bars the way I want to go. People say that you can't turn without CS. Perhaps it's not as effective doing it the old fashioned way, but it suits me.

Attached is a pic of my mate doing a Haslam school. Knee down, clearly turning the bars into the turn.
http://www.msnusers.com/westmidsriderscouk/msgattachments/3053

Have you actually tested your technique? In a straight line at normal road speeds, try just pulling the bar on the side you want to turn to (hands off the other) towards you (positive steering). Be careful, it won't turn that way.
Also, r.e the pic that I can't see, but I can imagine: Mid-corner (on a roundabout for example), try to straighten the bike up by pushing the inside handlebar away from you (straightening the bars).

We move the bars so little that it's so easy to not realise unless someone points it out, but you have to believe them for it to make any difference :)

[Stu]

Stick with trying to counter steer also try transfering your weight to the foot peg in the direction that you want to go!!!! :thumbsup:
Do you mean the inside peg :confused:

Your outside foot, should take a large percentage of your body weight when cornering.

[Stu]

I'm still relatively new as well, and I keep trying to look far ahead like you say but I'm always worried there's going to be some crap on the road I might need to avoid so I have to check.

.
If you look far ahead you can still see the road right in front of you. But if you look at the road right in front of you, you can't see into the distance.
It's hard I know , but just try it standing still first without moving your head.

[gettin2dizzy]

http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/multimedia.php

see "The No Body Steer bike"

spot on thanks! really worth a look that bike- they're not lying, bodyweight does **** all :-k

[Larry]

Hi, I might be a little late here, but if you PM me I have an Ebook I'll send for free to anyone who wants it on riding skills. It includes a good description of proper cornering and bike positioning which really helped me get to grips with it. Also I have one on tricks (wheelies/stoppies etc).

Thanks, Larry.

[MiniMatt]

Eeep. Ok, bit of a thread dredge obviously, but slightly baffled by some the recent responses. I'm not one to flat out say "that's wrong" to anyone, I much prefer letting people do and think what makes them happy. But counter-steering is *the only way* to turn your bike. Even if you don't think you're doing it, you are. When you realise this you then realise you can use it to your advantage.

As already mentioned, ever so simple demonstration is to find a quiet and straight road, and then push on the left hand bar, you will veer left, ie. the counter direction to the way you're turning. Shifting body weight does work, but not in the way you think, it's not that the body weight shift in itself turns the bike much but that it naturally moves your body into countersteering - ie. you hang off on the inside, your outside arm is now more stretched and your inside arm is more compressed - ie. you are actually applying countersteering forces.

[Sid Squid]

On a similar subject I wrote this a while back:'Countersteering*' = How motorbikes are steered. End of.

It is possible to provoke a change in direction of some unspecified and inaccurate sort by weighting one side or the other, but this isn't steering, and is an irrelevance that confuses and complicates.
The 'prove it to yourself' excercises that have been stated above are a good way of getting straight in your head what's happening, so I'd suggest that anyone not entirely sure what's being discussed go try them.**
Also know this; When you're at lean and established in a turn, the steering goes back to straight, the turning force is provided by the profile of the tyres, which when upright could be considered short cylinders but when at lean are in essence two cones, cones roll in circles = you turn when leant. In a constant turn you aren't doing any steering, and shouldn't be trying to either***, you get out of the turn not by stopping steering, but by steering the other way - you 'countersteer' yourself back upright again. The speedway example is not valid, that's being got through the turn in an entirely different way, that's not how it works unless sliding the back tyre significantly, and even then the steering inputs the rider is making mid turn are only those needed to change the turn, not make the turn continue.

Now the big question: Why consciously 'countersteer'? How will this benefit me?

Conscious 'countersteering' is a good thing to be familiar with, when you understand it it will add a little margin of safety to your riding, and should you decide, a dab of speed too.
How? Very simple, if you take your time over steering your bike, as you will unless you are deliberately using the steering quickly, you spend more time off the vertical, this means that any given turn will be longer, and the straight bits shorter. When you have decided to negotiate a given turn you will also have decided, whether conciously or not, on a lean angle necessary to make the turn, once that decision has been made why take any longer than is absolutely necessary to get from upright to that lean angle? As you will have noticed if you've tried the excercises for yourself, the speed at which the bike takes up a lean when you conciously make an effort to turn the 'bars quickly is very high, (this is caused by gyroscopic precession).
So, to use some easy figures, if instead of taking a second or so to get to the chosen angle you only take a half of a second, at 30mph (44fps), you will have been upright for 22 feet more, remember; lean compromises your ability to do everyting else, you can't use the power or the brakes to any great extent when leant, and the more you lean the more this is so. Now 30 mph and 22 feet don't sound like much, but if you've now the ability to make your turns in a shorter space on the road, the road just got bigger - the possibilities for positioning your bike more advantageously and maximise your forward view are increased. If your intention is to go quicker you'll now be on the throttle for another 22 feet, you'll be using the brakes 22 feet later, and when you're done with turning you'll be able to bring the bike back upright and use the throttle earlier too. None of this adds any more turning force, it doesn't make any difference to the turn that you make, all that's changed is instead of taking time in getting your lean you did it quickly.


* I don't like this word. I think it's the wrong word. You're not steering the wrong way, you're steering the way that you need to in order to go where you want, perhaps counter-intuitive steering is what it should be called, but I'll continue to use the word for the sake of simplicty.
** Find somewhere suitable, this will involve space, lots of it, and equally importantly won't involve anyone or anything else in said space.
Ride along at about 30-40 mph, relax your grip on the 'bars such that any less grip and the throttle would close, gently press on the left handlebar - you're turning the steering to the right - the bike leans and turns to the left, note the pressure required to make a significant and speedy lean and turn. Try it again pressing the right 'bar for completeness.
*** In a turn you should be as relaxed as is possible, the way many people describe this is to do 'the funky chicken' mid turn, that is waggle your elbows up and down, if you can't do this you're still steering whether by trying to turn the bars or simply by your rigid arms making unconscious steering inputs. As you are undoubtedly aware motorbikes steer themselves quite a bit, this is best demonstrated by the way the steering straightens itself when you let go of the 'bars, and is caused by the geometry of the wheel/forks/frame, particularly the trail, (but this is another story entirely, so no more now), the effect of this is that your motorbike can steer more quickly than you can and it can certainly do it more accurately - let it.
(http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=978827&highlight=countersteering#post978827)

[Stig]

Well I was going to add some input but then Sid Squid has posted.

So I will just add.

COUNTER STEER rocks.

If you think that you ride without counter steering, then go out and physically try "active" counter steer. Your riding WILL improve.

[the_lone_wolf]

as i only passed my test a couple of weeks ago, and only picked up my bike on saturday, i probably don't count as an expert on the subject, but having spent most of the weekend out and about, i know what feels better when i corner...

at first i spent most of the corners bolt upright, but once i got used to the bike i started to lean more into the corner, you can feel the bike respond when you lean in by becoming more upright, and although i'm far from reaching the limits of grip i bet having the bike more upright would be preferable should you hit a uneven bit of road mid corner

i also messed around with counter steering yesterday, and it truly does feel right, if you concentrate you can see yourself doing it ever so slightly even when you think you're just leaning to turn the bike, but with a really gentle push on the inside bar the bike turns quickly and smoothly until you're cornering at the correct rate and everything just settles down

so that's it, the ramblings of a newbie, you can take it or leave it but it felt right for me
:D