Bike accident....first on the sence............what do i do?

[svrash]

Out with the wife and kids today, in the car on the way to Princetown (Dartmoor). On the way up to the moors i notice 5/6 bike ahead not going fast as the car was consistently 150-200m behind them. Get on to the moors and around the next bend i see most of them running across the moor to one of there mates who missed the corner and went a bit motor cross on his R6, we stop the car

On my way down to the biker i turned his bike off just in case a stray spark found a stray fuel leak, get to the biker, hes conscious on his side complaining hes having problems breathing and his mates are all around him talking on phones asking if hes alright, tell each other not to remove his lid.

The wife runs down with a blanket (bless her) and we cover him, i ask him his name, where he's hurting, i ask him to open his eyes and focus on me for a sec, hold his head still and that's it........

A part from holding his hand and not taking his lid off what else can i do in a situation like that? Should i have rolled him on his back?

What if I'm on a ride one day and one of my mates comes off, i don't know what i should do really........................would my mates know what to do if it was me?

Note to self: Get a silver blanket to put under the rear seat!

The local paramedic was passing so he took over the situation untill the police and ambulance arrived, the guy seemed to be OK but TBH I'm not sure

[BILLY]

Take a first aid coarse some do cover RTA situations!!!!

[kciN]

Firstly, you need to make sure they conscious, if so keep them warm and reassure always.
If not conscious you have to make a decision whether he/she is still breathing by looking feeling listening for breath.
To not remove a helmet is probably very wise and in most circumstances goes without saying, but if they aren't breathing and you need to perform CPR, then you can, and with the help of as many people as possible, remove the helmet extremely slowly and gently. I've done a first aid course and we (the students)asked this question. The tutor said only remove if necessary and the best way is if someone pushes their hands up inside the helmet, so the palms of the hand are on the cheeks to keep head as still as possible whilst another person pulls gently. As many hands as possible to hold body and head as still as possible. Remember only if they're unconscious, because they won't be wriggling at all for fear of you damaging anything else....

I'll wait for others comments but remember, if they're not breathing and you leave the helmet on and the Ambulance takes a while to arrive, they'll die from oxygen starvation to the brain anyway without CPR.

Anyway, if you google it I know there are courses you can do in aid of a motorcyclist in an accident and I'm sure there's loads of stuff you can read etc....

[The Basket]

OK crash Scene...
Look at the accident...is it dangerous or not? Is the rider safer where he is?Are you safe to treat him? Don't move him but if he's in greater danger where he is then you can move him but don't if he is in a safe area.

Next...look at what the rider look like? Any visible bleeding or obvious broken stuff. Check if the rider is awake and reacting to you. If he is talking to you then he is breathing and has a heart beat. Keep him talking as he can clear his own airway when awake. If he is awake, give him no food or water, don't remove the helmet and don't move him. But keep him talking and a blanket is a nice touch.
If there are visible bleeds than either direct or indirect pressure on the wound.

If he is unconscious, check his airway is clear, check for breathing and check for a heart beat. If he has them then constant monitoring and keep him warm.

Make sure there is an ambulance on the way.

If he is not breathing and help is not near then stuff like CPR will have to do. Make sure his airway is clear and commence. A good course will teach you this. You can move him now or take his helmet off as he will die(maybe) so an action to save his life is ok. Having a flip lid is very useful.

If there are a group of you, you can log roll him onto his back. Removing the helmet is not a good idea as it is supporting the neck and also creating pressure on any head wounds. Removal of the helmet takes practice as the helmet has to be removed without jerking the head and once off the head has to be supported, usually by someones knees.

Yeah...

[El Saxo]

The 'First Bike On Scene' course that the ambulance service runs is a great one to go on, just depends if there's one near you.

I went on the course last month and learned a hell of a lot. Thankfully haven't had to use any of it yet, but you never know :(

We were given some handouts at the course, I will dig them out and try and scan them to post on here, might be useful...

[El Saxo]

Found the handouts and scanned them, I will email them to John admin and see if he can post them on the main site.

[rictus01]

All good advice, but do get some training.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

it's the most unselfish skill you'll ever learn.

I don't think I'd ever want to be in that position if the injured party was a loved one, would you :shock:

Cheers Mark.

[tomjones2]

Been present a a fair few car accident, mostley on the A34 and don't forget about yourself.

If you have been forced to stop on high speed carrigeway, particaully ones that wind such as the A34 you can be placing yourself/passengers in great danger of a high speed rear end shunt.

One accident on a blind bend on the A34 there were people running all over the carriageway trying to move cars, oncomming cars emegency stopping as were the trucks. Fortunalty no one was hurt but any cars comming round the corner at 100mph+ which is fairly common would have had a huge accident - could have been a lot worse.

Other than that first aid seems a good idea, did mine years ago and definaley need refreshing now :oops:

[xj/frosty]

Rules for accident scene
1) secure the scene --vehicle down the road with flashers on . another rider standing roadside waving cars down.
2)ensure your own safety. -ya can't help anyone if you've bee hurt
3) scene assesment -is it safe to leave the injured person where they are ? Ifr so leave them there if they need immidiate moveing to ensure survival do so.
4) contact ambulance service. Get someone else to do this--make sure they know the exact location.
Dunno about over there but here the nearest medic is usually only 30 minutes maximum away.

Ya notice I havent mentioned any injury assessment. Thats a whole other thing.

[The Basket]

All good advice, but do get some training.

I thought I was :D

[Warren]

DR ABC :)

[svrash]

Brought a foil blanket from E-Bay to carry on the bike, only £1.95 all in HERE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7235266648&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

[tinpants]

Just as a matter of interest, these foil "space-blanket" thingies are all well and good if you are warm and want to stay that way. They do NOT add to the body's ambient temperature. Therefore, don't be fooled into thinking that you are doing some good with one of these things. We took them off our ambulances some time ago.

Incidentally, theres a lot of guff talked about what should and shouldn't be done at the scene of an RTC. My advice is "Get trained. ASAP". As my friend Rictus quite rightly pointed out
"Its the most unselfish skill you'll ever learn" Wise words indeed. I've been a paramedic for sometime and every time I attend an incident I nearly always hear a by-stander say something like " I wish I could have done more" or " I wish I'd known what to do". Think about it. How would you feel if it was a member of your family that was lying there. You'd want to do something to help (I hope!). Get yoursef on a course and learn the skills. You won't regret it. Ever.

[sharriso74]

Don't know if this has been posted but Bikesure are offering a 5% discount on your ins if you do the Emergency aid for bikers course

http://www.sja.org.uk/training/courses/public/emergencyaidmotorcyclists.pdf

[Stig]

A part from holding his hand and not taking his lid off what else can i do in a situation like that? Should i have rolled him on his back?

What if I'm on a ride one day and one of my mates comes off, i don't know what i should do really........................would my mates know what to do if it was me?



Exactly why I just did a first aid course for motorcyclists.

[northwind]

Just as a matter of interest, these foil "space-blanket" thingies are all well and good if you are warm and want to stay that way. They do NOT add to the body's ambient temperature. Therefore, don't be fooled into thinking that you are doing some good with one of these things. We took them off our ambulances some time ago.


Mmm. This I disagree with, or at least people I know in rescue services disagree with (mountain rescue). I'm relaying someone else's opinion here, I really don't have one since I don't have any training at all.

Ambulances have no use for them, but that's a totally different situation. What you're potentially doing as first on the scene is settling in for a long wait. The blankets won't add temperature but they can reduce heat loss. They can also provide some protection from the elements. Not much use to an ambulance crew, but then you're not trying to do what an ambulance crew does- you're trying to keep things as stable as possible till they get there. If you're out in the country on a twisty road you could be waiting a long time, long enough for a perfectly healthy person in leathers to feel the effects of cold, let alone someone injured or in shock.

Obviously they're not the ideal tool for the job, but there's nothing better that you can carry on a sports bike.

These guys work the Cairngorms and they reckon that the mylar blankets save several lives each year- they hand them out to walkers and climbers, if the missing person's known to have one on them then they add that into the calculations for recovery time (ie, if you don't have one, they assume you're dead faster than if you do.) And that's not all foul-weather rescues, the casual walkers can get themselves in trouble in the car park.

IMO the absolute most important piece of equipment you can have as an untrained person is a mobile phone. We're trying to get together a group for the basic training in teh Ecosse board, so if anyone's interested in the central belt...

[svrash]

...........but there's nothing better that you can carry on a sports bike.


Thats what my main thoughts were, luckly we keep a blanket in the car but what about when i'm out on the bike? We were in the middle of dartmoor, mist was coming down, the guy was wearing jeans, gortex type jacket and summer glove, when i held his hand it was freezing.............a foil blanket would have been better then nothing IMHO

My local bike forums are talking about first aid training so I will be partaking in a course soon even if i have to go it alone :wink:

[rictus01]

...........but there's nothing better that you can carry on a sports bike.


a foil blanket would have been better then nothing IMHO

Two points, first off you're right it would be better than nothing, however your ability to fend off cold won't be conpromised, and if doing CPR for any time at all you'll be boilling hot, give them your coat.

Secondly, northwinds statement, dump the space blanket and carry a pocket mask instead :!:

Cheers Mark.

[northwind]

and if doing CPR for any time at all you'll be boilling hot, give them your coat.

Secondly, northwinds statement, dump the space blanket and carry a pocket mask instead :!:


Then again, if you're doing CPR for any time, you'll not be fannying around with mylar blankets ;)

I'll show my ignorance about the pocket mask comment- tell more? Do you mean the CPR mask things?

[rictus01]

I'll show my ignorance about the pocket mask comment- tell more? Do you mean the CPR mask things?

yes that the one



http://www.mplsredcross.org/gifts/images/Laerdal_cpr_pocket_mask.jpg

I've had the same one under my bike(s) seat for over 15 years, even took it suba diving with me.

Cheers Mark.

[Warren]

during my first aid courses that ive been on, ive found it pretty hard to get a good seal round "annie's" mouth, them masks make it so much easier.

and just think, thats in a calm controlled enviroment.

[northwind]

Would you recommend those for unskilled use? Never used one, had a play with one when I got my 30 minutes first aid training with the bank but we didn't have the resuscitation dolls. The impression I got was that the bank used them because they were terrified of litigation (the classic "you saved my life, but in the process you gave me cold sores, I'm going to sue"), but I could be wrong.

[northwind]

Oh, just remembered one of Tosh's stories... A dirt biker riding (illegally, I think) up one of the walking trails managed to ride into a river and get stuck under the bike with a broken somethingorother. Blanket's not much use there... Except that it's a big shiny thing, quite handy when you're in a muddy river under a muddy bike :)

[Warren]

Would you recommend those for unskilled use? Never used one, had a play with one when I got my 30 minutes first aid training with the bank but we didn't have the resuscitation dolls. The impression I got was that the bank used them because they were terrified of litigation (the classic "you saved my life, but in the process you gave me cold sores, I'm going to sue"), but I could be wrong.

ive only used em on the dolls, and they are alot easier.

[northwind]

DR ABC :)

Doctor Atomic Biological Chemical MD. Remind me never to hurt myself on his manor.

[Warren]

danger
response

airway
circulation
breathing

:)

[rictus01]

Would you recommend those for unskilled use? Never used one, had a play with one when I got my 30 minutes first aid training with the bank but we didn't have the resuscitation dolls. The impression I got was that the bank used them because they were terrified of litigation (the classic "you saved my life, but in the process you gave me cold sores, I'm going to sue"), but I could be wrong.

yes, you can get a face sheild, some thing like this
http://www.cprfaceshields.com/images/cpr-face-shield/CPR-Face-Shield.jpg

but the mask is better.

Just a number of things to consider.

RTA's could cause facial injuries (blood all over the place),
the mask seals over a greater area so is more effective (mouth and nose covered),
when doing CPR for any length of time it's not uncommon for the hand placement to be slightly off and compress the top of the stomach ( yes they can throw up in you mouth, or worse it could be blood)

want one now :?:

[Ward8124]

Well in the Army your taught....Assess the situation i.e are u in danger or the casualty, if so dont bother risking your own life or if there is iminant danger to the Cas then get them clear (This might spark a debate) and then do your ABC's (After getting someone to call the EMS peeps and return to you when done and if you have time D's.


BTW I've had to this for real in Kosovo so its best to take charge if you can.

[northwind]

want one now :?:

It wouldn't stop me not having one, but it'd be nice :) Especially if it's that easy to use. They looked like they'd be just another thing to get wrong but like I say, never actually was able to try on.