Try it... it's impossible

[Ceri JC]

...Try going for a ride without breaking the speed limit when you've not got a police officer or IAM observer behind you. It's absolutely impossible. I've been practicing for my IAM test and I've not managed it once. I can do it when I'm being observed and I can do it in 30s and what I call "sensible 40s" (IE 40s that shouldn't, by all rights, be NSL or 50). As soon as I get to a road where the speed limit is inappropriate and it's clear/good conditions, I can't help but speed up. Not neccessarily silly speeds, or even anything police would pull you for, just 70 in a 60, 60 in a 50, etc. although even that often feels slow.

It's ludicrous, cars overtaking you (which on a bike is hugely dangerous; if they spoon the overtake up and are going to have a head on, they'll go for the softer option and plough into you).

I'm thinking more and more that I don't see the point in buying a bigger/faster bike anytime soon; I just think I'd certainly end up losing my licence, rather than it just being a possibility. Short of going ahead with my proposed "rip the fairing off and turn it into a naked with a tiny cowl" plan to slow me down, Which, ironically, I don't think I'll be able to afford to do, as I'll need to do everything in my power to keep insurance costs down once I have my points/ban, what can I do?

I had hoped doing IAM would make me find greater pleasure in more legal speeds and whilst I certainly find near-legal speeds more fun after a day of riding at the posted limit, it still is no fun going at the limit most of the time (although I maintain doing bang on 30 through most 30s is terrifying). Again, half an hour of riding as I normally do and this effect is gone.

Any solution to my liking a bit of speed, and my resolute, unmovable point of view that speed where it is appropriate and safe to do so is not socially irresponsible and that those who say it is are just parrots singing from the government's hymn sheet, other than actually getting a ban, or (and given my attitude to speed and road use, this is unlikely) me having an accident which is my fault and due to my inappropriate use of speed? :(

[BILLY]

So true! try dominating your lane so it makes it harder for them to over take you :!:

[Speedy]

Yep very true,especially when you have a loud exhaust and you like making lots of noise :twisted:

I was out the other day,and this very subject popped into my head!
Weird eh!

[carelesschucca]

self control and bike control, as they say men can't multi task... So the self control has to go out the window...

[Ceri JC]

self control and bike control, as they say men can't multi task... So the self control has to go out the window...

Very good. :lol:

I'll remember that one!

[The Basket]

The SV has that nice big Digi speedo so no mistaking the speed.

However, you need your eyes out of the dashboard and having to keep an eye on the speedo in case ur doing 32 in a 30 is simply dangerous.

I remember doing 58 behind some old dear because you can't go faster than 60...oh no. No overtaking there. How very real that is. Even the SV was bored :D

[carelesschucca]

if you have bike control you should be able to sit at the speed limit without even looking... i can sit at 30, 40, and 50 without having to check the speedo... It just takes practice... and Too much IAM training...

I can also blow my own trumpet... But thats for a different forum...

[BILLY]

I use the force!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[Speedy]

8) Generally speaking,I rarely check the speedo,If I aint in my 'Race' mode,I just keep up with the traffic,occasionally I may overtake someone. Especially motorway riding,any slower than the rest of the traffic,you become(I think) a potential hazard,eg,as has been said already,Cars over taking you!? :?

[Jelster]

Obviously an IAM group that doesn't condone the "make progress" phrase that they were always driving intoo me....

.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Steve.

When i did my IAM course they told me that sticking to the speed limits in NSL areas wasnt what made or broke a test.. they are really looking for hazard perception and observation.

If you can demonstrate these skills whilst "making progress" you will still pass the course even if you do say 80 or even 90 in a NSL 60 zone.

It may be worth checking this fact with your observer, as it was the first thing they told me when i enrolled and also the last thing they told me.

[Ceri JC]

Obviously an IAM group that doesn't condone the "make progress" phrase that they were always driving intoo me....

.

Yes, this was something I brought up. I was always led to believe, IAM's POV was "Officially, we can't speed on observed runs, but in reality we all do. Stick to proper limits, but NSLs are a bit of a free for all, so long as you don't take the mick." I was dissappointed to discover my group seem to operate along the lines of "Speeding is only acceptable for an overtake and only then if the person you're undertaking is 5 miles an hour or less under the limit and even then only by breaking the limit by about 10mph, 15mph absolute tops". Apparently the grounds being that the examiners will fail you for anything more and they're training you to pass the advanced test. A ride home with a few of the examiners, not officially on IAM business was more interesting, but still not exactly, "**** me, they're fast."

[carelesschucca]

I wouldn't test that one. Part of the IAM is being able to follow the rules of the road... So 70 in a 60 for a prolonged time is/should be a fail...

I will admit I ride quickly, the IAM has actually helped me in this, its made me more sensible about speed...

But as I always say its a good skill to be able to do the speed limit without having to check ure speedo (or as near as damit)... Its called throttle control...

[carelesschucca]

but still not exactly, "**** me, they're fast."

I bet they ride quicker when its not an IAM night... I know a lot of IAM guys that are what you think of as 'kinda quick' but they are just cruising along, specially on an IAM evening... Then they decided to go for it and you'll get left behind...

[scooby2102]

The IAM group that I am with re-iterate before each observed ride that while they aim to make good progress, it MUST be done within the speed limits.

Was told last week that it would be a fail during the test (I was unsure of the limit on the road I was travelling on so was doing 40 in a 30).

It finally twigged when I realised I was pulling away from them and had to keep slowing down

[philipMac]

I dont even try. Unless there is a cage in front of me I am breaking the speed limit.
Not really intentionally. Its just the way it is. (Althought they have all these stupid 55 mph limits out here that no one pays any attention to.)

I try to keep it within twice the limit though...

[Mr Toad]

..."rip the fairing off and turn it into a naked with a tiny cowl" plan to slow me down


why would this slow you down :?:

I'm quite happy sitting at 70 all day on my naked. With the small fly screen that came with the bike (that I was going to remove but haven't got round to it) that goes up to 80-90 with no probs. A lack of fairing isn't going to slow you down until you're well into 3 figures . . . and then only if you try to hold it at that speed for any appreciable length of time :roll:

[Warthog]

Yeah its kind of odd, I suppose I speed on almost every road; 35-40 in a 30, 45-50 in a 40 etc etc. Its just the speed that feels a bit like you are actually going somewhere, but still feels totally safe and easy. I think its cos they err on the side of caution when setting speed limits, I just wish they would give you the higher maximum and trust you to ride slower if the conditions require you to. Fat chance of that with most people though I suppose... :roll:

[Ceri JC]

..."rip the fairing off and turn it into a naked with a tiny cowl" plan to slow me down


why would this slow you down :?:

I'm quite happy sitting at 70 all day on my naked. With the small fly screen that came with the bike (that I was going to remove but haven't got round to it) that goes up to 80-90 with no probs. A lack of fairing isn't going to slow you down until you're well into 3 figures . . . and then only if you try to hold it at that speed for any appreciable length of time :roll:

I know if I wanted to actually do 80 (motorway, etc.), a lack of fairing certainly won't stop me. It's just for an increased sense of speed; I know from riding naked bikes/bikes with smaller fairings that they feel quicker. It's more to make me derive as much fun from 70 in a 60 as I currently do from 80.

[Skip]

I dont need to try it, I already know its impossible! 30mph limits seem to be the only ones I can hold my nerve in! 40s always end up being 45-50.... :roll:

http://www.shiresmt.co.uk/images/national%20speed%20limit%20sign.gif This always ends up meaning "whatever feels safe at the time" :oops:

[skidmarx]

A nice low gear helps me keep my speed down in the 30/40 zones. Remember the pitch of the engine note at 30 in 2/3, how many revs are you doing? Can you cover the rev counter and find that engine speed in neutral by the side of the road just by listening to the pitch of the engine?

[Filipe M.]

Try to always ride within the prescribed speed limits around here and I'll give you 10 secs before some tw@ in a cage starts tailgating you. :roll: The same ones that'll try to overtake you everywhere (including on the outside of bends :evil: ) and then slow to a crawl when a) they realize traffic in front is slow and not so easy to overtake; b) terrain starts to go up... oh how I love leaving them for dead on the uphills... :roll:

[lynw]

It finally twigged when I realised I was pulling away from them and had to keep slowing down

Helpful general guide I was told. If youre in a built up area its 30mph unless its signed otherwise. If there are no reminder signs every other[ish] lampost its a 30. If there are, then its whatever the reminder sign says.

Out of built up area, no signs usually = NSL. Again if its other there will be reminder signs of the limit.

[Grinch]

I was told... if you can see street lights and no signs then its a 30...

[Filipe M.]

Around here: in town = 50 km/h (31 mph) unless lower limit imposed by signalling, out of town = 90 km/h (56 mph) unless signal, motorway = 120 km/h (75 mph), unless blablabla... in town sometimes the limit can be ridiculed down to 20 km/h (12.5 mph) if some dumb@ss thinks it's appropriate... of course you'll never see anyone abiding it. :roll:

[Ceri JC]

It finally twigged when I realised I was pulling away from them and had to keep slowing down

Helpful general guide I was told. If youre in a built up area its 30mph unless its signed otherwise. If there are no reminder signs every other[ish] lampost its a 30. If there are, then its whatever the reminder sign says.

Out of built up area, no signs usually = NSL. Again if its other there will be reminder signs of the limit.

^ Sound advise. Unfortunately, there are some places it doesn't apply. I was on unfamiliar roads that by all rights, should have been at least 40, if not NSL. No repeaters/streetlights for ages, so I assumed I'd missed the 40/NSL sign and sped up. I then noticed the 30 repeater which cropped up as the built up housing started appearing again. Isle of Wight is a nightmare for it too (although to be fair, they are quite good with repeaters); loads of roads that should be NSL that are 30/40.

[RenamedMonkey]

...
It's ludicrous, cars overtaking you (which on a bike is hugely dangerous; if they spoon the overtake up and are going to have a head on, they'll go for the softer option and plough into you).
...

...must remember this one...

[Sid Squid]

I'm really not interested what the legal limit is, the speedo tells you nothing.

I ride and drive at a rate which is appropriate to the circumstance, this is the only important factor.

Persons who feel otherwise are those whose skills are insufficient to make an appropriate decision, and if that very basic element of the necessary road skills is lacking, it is unlikely to be the only questionable aspect of the skillset.

[philipMac]

True Sid.

But, I know that here, if you get reefed doing more than twice the limit, they get very excited about things altogether.

[Spiderman]

I'm really not interested what the legal limit is, the speedo tells you nothing.

I ride and drive at a rate which is appropriate to the circumstance, this is the only important factor.

Persons who feel otherwise are those whose skills are insufficient to make an appropriate decision, and if that very basic element of the necessary road skills is lacking, it is unlikely to be the only questionable aspect of the skillset.

=D> =D> =D>

well said.

thats always been my attitude. Whether in a car /van/ 7.5 ton/ pushbike or Motorbike.
Its whats right for my mode of transport and the road condidtions that i care about.

Saying that i did have to ride all the way home (some 30s but mainly 40s and 50s) behind a bike cop last week. And on some of those 50s i normally open up to a ton :oops:
It was the most boring ride home i'm had in ages.

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

[Filipe M.]

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

Send some down here too, please... :roll: I don't mind riding slow behind them, and in fact I might even learn a thing or two.

[wixxy]

[well said.

thats always been my attitude. Whether in a car /van/ 7.5 ton/ pushbike or Motorbike.
Its whats right for my mode of transport and the road condidtions that i care about.

Saying that i did have to ride all the way home (some 30s but mainly 40s and 50s) behind a bike cop last week. And on some of those 50s i normally open up to a ton :oops:
It was the most boring ride home i'm had in ages.

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

This seems like double standards to me. You applaud the bike cop enforcing one law but choose to ignore another. The car drivers on the phone are just applying the same logic as you - just choosing to disregard a different law.

[scooby2102]

I'm really not interested what the legal limit is, the speedo tells you nothing.

I ride and drive at a rate which is appropriate to the circumstance, this is the only important factor.

Persons who feel otherwise are those whose skills are insufficient to make an appropriate decision, and if that very basic element of the necessary road skills is lacking, it is unlikely to be the only questionable aspect of the skillset.

Sid, please forgive if I am missing the obvious here but does that mean that if you were driving on a long straight road, good conditions etc in a clearly marked 30 zone at 60mph and I choose to stick to the 30 limit on the same road, are you implying that I (or anyone else for that matter) are lacking necessary road craft skills and therefore unable to make decisions with reference to road riding etc :?:

Or are you on the windup here :wink:

[Sid Squid]

A windup? Not at all.

The decision making process will lead us all to make our personal estimation of what an appropriate rate is, in the circumstance that you had decided that the limit were one that you wished to observe, does not in any way suggest that you did or didn't consider that the limit were the sensible upper rate at which to travel, simply that that's the speed which you chose. I fully support anybody's decision to ride or drive in a legal manner. Sometimes I just bimble around, I don't look down on those who wish to travel at a different speed to me, I only have a disregard for those whose driving skills are unable to make these very important decisions for themselves, and supplant a belief that being legal is the only manner in which to be safe.

What I'm suggesting is simply that a blind adherence to speed limits in the belief that this will ensure safety is incorrect, when I said that I didn't consider posted limits to be the final arbiter of what is and what isn't an appropriate rate, it may have been considered by some people that I only intended to interpret the limit upward, I assure you that this is not so.

What concerns me greatly is that some people seem to have completely abdicated the responsibility for making such decisions for themselves and automatically assume that whatever the limit is, is an appropriate speed. I think we all know that there are circumstances where this is not so.

[Spiderman]

[well said.

thats always been my attitude. Whether in a car /van/ 7.5 ton/ pushbike or Motorbike.
Its whats right for my mode of transport and the road condidtions that i care about.

Saying that i did have to ride all the way home (some 30s but mainly 40s and 50s) behind a bike cop last week. And on some of those 50s i normally open up to a ton :oops:
It was the most boring ride home i'm had in ages.

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

This seems like double standards to me. You applaud the bike cop enforcing one law but choose to ignore another. The car drivers on the phone are just applying the same logic as you - just choosing to disregard a different law.

I guess that depends on what you view as safe and unsafe behaviour whilst in control of a vehicle on the roads.
When i have to drive the g/fs car i NEVER answer the phone and wont use the hands free kit built into her car either, even tho it is compatible with my fone.
I know that a large part of my mind is "busy" whenever i did it in the past and if i'm on a hand held then so is one of my hands.
On the bike i speed sensibly if i wish to and all the time i concentrate on nothing but my riding.

So i break a law that harms only me (fine and points i mean) while cagers on the phone break a law that could potential kill me or anyone near to them at the time that thier reactions are needed but not applied in time cos they were on the phone.

Truth be told, i also smoke weed. There i go breaking yet another law. But again, its a law that ultimately harms only me. And i never smoke before i ride either before you ask.

So it may seem like a double standard but its my way of deciding for myself whats actually important in my life and whats just a good guide to go by at times.
Bear in mind that most of the speed limits on our roads were set a hellva long time ago and i'd say that apart from most, but certainly not all, 30s others speed limits can be exceeded by about 10mph by every vehicle and the road will still be as safe or unsafe as it was before.

[philipMac]

What concerns me greatly is that some people seem to have completely abdicated the responsibility for making such decisions for themselves and automatically assume that whatever the limit is, is an appropriate speed. I think we all know that there are circumstances where this is not so.

Just to comment here, I agree, and have been on a number of (Irish country) roads where the posted speed limit was being adhered to, and I was absolutely terrified, we were traveling far far to fast for the road, and eventually asked the drievr to slow down.

[wixxy]

[well said.

thats always been my attitude. Whether in a car /van/ 7.5 ton/ pushbike or Motorbike.
Its whats right for my mode of transport and the road condidtions that i care about.

Saying that i did have to ride all the way home (some 30s but mainly 40s and 50s) behind a bike cop last week. And on some of those 50s i normally open up to a ton :oops:
It was the most boring ride home i'm had in ages.

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

This seems like double standards to me. You applaud the bike cop enforcing one law but choose to ignore another. The car drivers on the phone are just applying the same logic as you - just choosing to disregard a different law.

I guess that depends on what you view as safe and unsafe behaviour whilst in control of a vehicle on the roads.
When i have to drive the g/fs car i NEVER answer the phone and wont use the hands free kit built into her car either, even tho it is compatible with my fone.
I know that a large part of my mind is "busy" whenever i did it in the past and if i'm on a hand held then so is one of my hands.
On the bike i speed sensibly if i wish to and all the time i concentrate on nothing but my riding.

So i break a law that harms only me (fine and points i mean) while cagers on the phone break a law that could potential kill me or anyone near to them at the time that thier reactions are needed but not applied in time cos they were on the phone.

Truth be told, i also smoke weed. There i go breaking yet another law. But again, its a law that ultimately harms only me. And i never smoke before i ride either before you ask.

So it may seem like a double standard but its my way of deciding for myself whats actually important in my life and whats just a good guide to go by at times.
Bear in mind that most of the speed limits on our roads were set a hellva long time ago and i'd say that apart from most, but certainly not all, 30s others speed limits can be exceeded by about 10mph by every vehicle and the road will still be as safe or unsafe as it was before.

Fair enough. Actually, I'm inclined to agree with you, using a mobile in a car is plain stupid - you only have to spend a couple of hours on the road to spot all sorts of dangerous driving by people on the phone. And I'm no advocate of slavish adherence to every speed limit. I was just observing that we all have different thresholds of what's acceptable and some might use a version of your argument to justify their mobile phone use.

By the way, round here there's suddenly been a rash of inappropriate speed limits: 60s going to 30s, 50s appearing on all the good roads. These really are difficult to stick to. Is this a national phenomenon or am I just unlucky to live in Gloucestershire?

[Ceri JC]

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

Good to hear. I also think it'd be nice to have bike cops that drive through country lanes (what a job, eh? 8) ), filtering to the front of traffic queues doing half the speed limit in great conditions and pulling the driver over when it's safe and educating them about "impeding the flow of traffic" and how you should pull in where it's safe to do so to allow faster traffic to pass you. I was stuck (in the car) behind someone doing a constant 35mph, yesterday, for about 20 minutes. Needless to say, as well as doing this on NSL, they kept this speed (35) up through sensible/appropriate 30s in a village the road passed through. :roll:

My view is whilst you shouldn't feel obliged to do the limit constantly, doing half of it, when your vehicle/the conditions would allow far more and when there's a 1/2 mile long tailback of traffic behind you, is either: mighty inconsiderate; has very poor rear observation; lacks adequate driving skills to be on the road at all, at any speed; or, thinks that their vehicle isn't up to it.

I honestly think doing this would not only massively ease congestion, but would dramatically reduce incidents of "road rage" as well as fatal accidents such as head-ons, where someone who has become frustrated tries a dangerous overtake to get past and hits something coming the other way. I mean, I'd be quite happy with them tying spot fines to the offence to help pay for implementing it, if that's the motivation they need. :lol:

[Daimo]

Sat at 70 all the way down the a21 the other day, and slowed to the appropriate speed limits all the way to and from Hastings at the weekend.

Thats with the missis on board, makes it much easier to ride smoother IMO.

When im on my own though, the devil inside says go on, let it rev to 9k :twisted:

[Spiderman]

Gotta say this tho, bike cop was actively looking for cgaers on the phone as he went. If he had a doubt he would slow down and look right in at them to be sure before he carried on his way. Not in any aggresive manner, just doing his job well i'd say.
Wish there were more like him about in rush hour traffic.

Good to hear. I also think it'd be nice to have bike cops that drive through country lanes (what a job, eh? 8) ), filtering to the front of traffic queues doing half the speed limit in great conditions and pulling the driver over when it's safe and educating them about "impeding the flow of traffic" and how you should pull in where it's safe to do so to allow faster traffic to pass you. I was stuck (in the car) behind someone doing a constant 35mph, yesterday, for about 20 minutes. Needless to say, as well as doing this on NSL, they kept this speed (35) up through sensible/appropriate 30s in a village the road passed through. :roll:

My view is whilst you shouldn't feel obliged to do the limit constantly, doing half of it, when your vehicle/the conditions would allow far more and when there's a 1/2 mile long tailback of traffic behind you, is either: mighty inconsiderate; has very poor rear observation; lacks adequate driving skills to be on the road at all, at any speed; or, thinks that their vehicle isn't up to it.

I honestly think doing this would not only massively ease congestion, but would dramatically reduce incidents of "road rage" as well as fatal accidents such as head-ons, where someone who has become frustrated tries a dangerous overtake to get past and hits something coming the other way. I mean, I'd be quite happy with them tying spot fines to the offence to help pay for implementing it, if that's the motivation they need. :lol:

Dont come and live in my area any time soon then mate.
The locals have decided to implement a voluntary* 20mph speed limit all thru the borough.

The reason its voluntary. They actualy tried to get central govt to change all the speeds and make the entire borough 20mph. :shock: They had no regard for the fact that the borough has many A roads and Mways in it too.
Central govt told them there is no law allowing them to do such a thing. Near schools or on estates yes, not borough wide.
So now the idea is "if we all do 20mph all the others will have to do the same. Roads are too congested to overtake so they will have to follow at 20" (this last statement was actualy printed in my local paper's letters page. One of those pushing for the new speed wrote in)

Nice safe attitude there. I can just see the boy racers in my borough all suddenly thinking they wanna drive slow cos the old fool in front is doing 20. They wont feel like overtaking, regardless of the oncoming traffic. Cos boy racers are that way inclined arent they.
This also wont lead to much more road rage :roll:

Pathetic eh?

[Balky001]

Sid Squid - so you are going on personal assement of a situation rather than the much thought about and unarguably correct process the authorities go through to set speed limits to ensure they are fair, reasonable and safe. How bizarre, its almost like you are using your own grey matter rather than reading from a code book! :shock: I bet you don't order from the set menu either :wink:

[Ceri JC]

Nice safe attitude there. I can just see the boy racers in my borough all suddenly thinking they wanna drive slow cos the old fool in front is doing 20. They wont feel like overtaking, regardless of the oncoming traffic. Cos boy racers are that way inclined arent they.
This also wont lead to much more road rage :roll:

Pathetic eh?

B'hell! :shock:

Of course, people will be more inclined to overtake as they'll think "well, the oncoming traffic is only doing 20mph too, I've got plenty of time." Only to come face to face with someone with the same idea coming the other way, or it turns out that the car ahead is someone lucky enough to have already overtaken the car with milkfloat aspirations that has been holding them up.

I remember reading about a similar "Pace Car" scheme in Bike a while back. Basically sanctimonious idiot (A) signs up to the scheme, they put a "pace car" sticker in their back window and swear some pledge of allegiance to being deathly-dull, not to mention needlessly dangerous and selfish, by never exceeding the speed limit. Normal road user (B) will then see car (A) and if they can resist the temptation to ram them off the road and give them a shoeing, or attempt a dangeorus overtake, will be forced to stick to the speed limit (or indeed whatever amount under the limit the clearly inadequately skilled driver (A) has chosen). As a result there will be no more accidents (because we all know speed is the main cause of accidents, right?), no motoring fatalities, fuel economy will increase, fuel prices will drop, pollution will drop, tyre wear will drop, servicing costs will drop, insurance premiums will drop and the world will be a better, safer and more "love thy neighbour" place than ever before.

I think the answer is easy; firebomb any car displaying the "Pace Car" sticker. Chances are, that most of the dawdlers will have signed up to the scheme, so you'll be making the roads faster, safer and less congested, all in one fell swoop. :twisted: