View Full Version : Our Mother Tongue
timwilky
11-05-06, 10:31 AM
Is it only me, or are standards in the use of the English language no longer slipping, but instead careering downhill at mach 2.
Yes I know language is dynamic, I read Dickens as a child, Shakespeare and attempted Chaucer as a teenager and is is obvious that language constructs, spelling, even words evolve. However, even then language had constructs and rules.
It would appear that today, a *******isation of the language is taking place in order that sub cultures can have their own unintelligible language. Such as in the case of Polari amongst the gay communities of the 30-50s.
However, this sub group who feel the need for their own language are our children. I have had many a discussion with my son and his friends. Who refuse to accept that the way that they speak will leave them stuck in the stereotype mould of wasters and nerdowells. Strange then that my thoughts seem to have hit home with my eldest. She at least is now attempting to shake of the shackles of a vocabulary and pronunciation formed on the concrete school yards of comprehensive Britain. Strange that she should now feel the need to learn her own language, 15 years too late.
When I was at school, the boys as well as girls had to undertake an element of deportment. We learnt how to stand in a room, to walk with our shoulder back, head upright. We learnt how to pronounce words and articulate clearly. Basic grammar, good reading and taught to shun certain popular childrens authors. For me, an Enid Blyton in my satchel would have got me six on the knuckles with a 3 ft wooden rule. Girls got the flat, boys the edge. Note in the above. A measuring stick, is a rule, not a ruler. A ruler sits on a throne. We were taught to use a fountain pen, cartridge pens were frowned upon, and work was rejected if thought to have been written with a ball point pen. Some of this still sticks with me today. I always use a fountain pen for my hand written correspondance.
Why the drivel in the above paragraph?. Well just to point out there was a time when our educators thought about quality of education. Now it would appear that they no longer have this concern and instead have lowered the standards to ensure large number of exam passes. My concerns were raised some years ago when my own daughter with a GCSE grade A in English was unable to tell me what an adjective was.
Is it not time that a body equivalent to the French Académie Française was formed, to protect and direct the evolution of the English language. Sloppy English should be rejected by all, we should no longer be compelled to put up with the use of street slang and vulgarity within daily life.
It is my own personal opinion the worst offender for the use of poor English has to be the BBC in the insistence of referring to the oblique character within URLs as "slash"
I do recognise that I too use poor and sloppy English. However, since it is now 30 years since I last had an English lesson. Please excuse it as yet another premature senility moment.
Anonymous
11-05-06, 10:37 AM
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
=D> Well said that man. Sadly though, whilst language evolves, there will always be the ever increasing street-talk element of it which will inevitably cross into general usage. So, how to stop standards slipping...we've probably reached a stage today where even the people we look to to deliver education have already slipped into the ever deepening pit of verbal-tripe despair. To educate effectively, you need to teach the teachers first...it ain't gonna 'appen me owld china innit. Whatever! Bovvered? Not. Oi - (If you can't beat them - join them). :lol: :wink: 8)
mysteryjimbo
11-05-06, 11:12 AM
No, but yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but yeah, but no.....
Shut up!!
:lol:
I is from souf lunun aint i, so i aint go no chance init. Naw jus you keep up norf an we will be schweet!
I havent got a clue either, and toaly agree with you old been :D
Tally ho!
I too also write using a fountain pen, and I am astonished when people ask to borrow a pen reply "Sorry I can't use one of them".
When a new employee, also new to Cardiff asked me directions, I gave him the A to Z, his reply was I can't read maps, - he's got an honours degree in geography.
Did your parents not hate the way you spoke when you were younger?
They probably did, while slang and pcking up words from other cultures/area's is always feared just like your post says (because you dont understand it).
It is the only way for language to evolve, if we didnt accept new words into our culture we would all still be oohing and arring at each like cavemen.
And its not as if our language came from one specific place, its a mixture of all the slang you can think of, german, french, gaelic, latin and spanish but to name a few.
Yes prenunciation as you know it has gone down the pan, but look how much the language has changed in the past 100 years, you cant expect it not to.
mudge32
11-05-06, 11:31 AM
Why have non-Jamaicans started using the accent?
This is one of the current trends that I am very confused about :smt021
northwind
11-05-06, 11:38 AM
No offence, but you talk about the english language as though it sprang into the world fully formed and is gradually being corrupted away from its ideal... If you read, for example, learned written english from the 1600s- for example, Hooke's diaries- it's close to incomprehensible. Little things like the apostrophe- contractions were still extremely rare. Hooke his diaries insteead of Hooke's diaries.
English is a dog tongue... We have roots from latin, greek, french and german. The oldest surviving spoken form of English is Lowland (lalan) Scots, it's the closest thing we have to "real english"- and Shakespeare, Dickens and Chaucer wouldn't have understood it.
Incidentally, it's ne'erdowells, or ne'er-do-wells ;) And that's slang, just slang that grew common. The entire english language as we speak is is a corruption of a corruption of a corruption of a mongrel. It's no purer than jamaican patois or Aberdonian Doric, or txt. That's why it's so succesful IMO.
I don't disagree with the general point though. Standards are definately being allowed to slip in some areas, though how common it is, I don't honestly know. Where it crosses the line is when schools allow the use of "improper english"- allowing essays to contain slang or txt, as has been reported, seems a step too far. That seems to be teaching something which shouldn't be encouraged. Although to be fair, I have no idea where that line would be drawn. Creative writign in txt, for example, would be fair play if done appropriately, but a history exam wouldn't.
As for the language as a whole, I'm personally of the opinion that there are modern writers producing work that far exceed Shakespeare, Dickens, Hardy et al. Romeo and Juliet, written today, would get maybe one performance in the Fringe with a selection of one star reviews. The pacing is poor, the use of language frequently awful and the characterisation pitiful. The whole thing is utterly unconvincing, right down to the sudden Tarantino-esque death toll at the end. Feeble. And stolen, for that matter, and extensively rewritten since Shakespeare's death.
A lot of the great works of modern literature willfully abuse the language and syntax- Ginsberg anyone? Kerouac? I'd add Jeff Noon to that list as a matter of taste. Philip Larkin or Seamus Heaney... Heinlein. We don't speak a dead language.
mudge32
11-05-06, 12:03 PM
I tell you what though.
If the young folks' regional dialects throughout Britain become anymore Eastender-fied, I will get seriously worried :lol:
timwilky
11-05-06, 12:08 PM
Northwind.
I don't disagree with you. I only pointed out the books I read as a child to illustrate my own understanding that language and the use of English does evolve by making an indirect comparison with my own experience of the evolution through the unintelligible 14th century Chaucer, 16th century Shakespeare, and Victorian Dickens. .
It is however, my contention that this evolution should take place over a considerably greater time than it takes for the current latest slang use to be adopted into the regular vocabulary of todays youth.
Whilst I thought it initially mildly amusing when the 3 year old boy next door was being admonished by his mother to reply "Whatever". I know a similar reply even at that age would have been rewarded by a sharp reminder of my manners from my own mother.
It just appears to me that generally standards are slipping in many areas, be it education, manners, behaviour. Nobody seems ready to stick their heads above the parapet to shout enough without the politically correct stuffing freedom of expression and the individual down our throats. Or politicians trying to spin a reason why yet another generation is heading for mediocrity and a life without fulfilment and reward.
Perhaps I am naive to think that the angry young men of the 50s and 60s had good intent, but todays youth don't appear to have the incentive to want to change the world. Instead they seem content let the world pass them by.
Im awaiting for the deport the immigrants post.
From other recent threads it seems a fair few people see that as the answer to all the countrys ills. :roll: :?
But as you say, language is fluid and is evolving. The language we use is a world away from Chaucer. Its the reason kids struggle with Shakespear in school - the language he used is different. Mind you I did find out what Maiden head meant doing Romeo & Juliet. :? :lol: :lol: :lol: Anyone live there? :twisted:
But each generation had their own styling of language. For some reason the beatniks in the 60s spring to mind here, and the hippies. :D Why be surprised our children are forming their own style?
Not that I like the Americanisation of our language. And the use of Z instead of S does annoy me a little. I view it as the person posting cant make the simplest of efforts, so why should I spend any attempting to decode it? Tend to ignore most people who do that now.
:D
As you point out above Tim, i think that most of todays youth, have very little respect for thier elders. i know that if i had reciprocated with "whatever" to my parents after being told off, then i would, like most, got a clip around the ear, something that is now frowned upon, and the kids know it.
As for the language, blame TV, Texting & media in general. Things evolve. Who to say that the likes of Shakespere et al, where right in the way we speak today? To be honest, i read shakespere at school and didnt have the foggiest what it was on about, although i wanted to.
Stuff happens, and i think the fact that its getting to you, just shows that we are from a different era and are just getting superseeded. It would be great to come back in 50-60 years time, if we have departed this mortal coil, and see whats occuring. We would all stand there shake our heads, and not have a clue what everyone is on about.
Something else that you picked up on. Hand writting. I know mine, since the extensive use of PC's, has deteriorated tremedously, and this is something that is sad. I even get cramp in my hand when i write long letters!
timwilky
11-05-06, 12:22 PM
Im awaiting for the deport the immigrants post.
That would be be ridiculous.
Many immigrants speak and write far better English than the English. Perhaps because they have actually been taught English. Whereas, there seems to be an attitude that we the English should learn it from our parents and peers.
No wonder the sins of the parents are visited on the child.
While I to hate some slang talk, things like 'chav' talk and such annoy me, I have in my youth and adult hood butchered the English language. Still do now as my English skills are awful, I even still now pronounce the name of my home town with out a H. So its 'ayling, rather then Hayling.
As for my use of there, their and they're its just doesn't want talking about.
Our language is a beast of animal that is constantly evolving and growing, just like our lives and culture.
If you really want to be traditional, be like the welsh and speak our true tongue. What ever it was all those years ago... probably German or something.
mudge32
11-05-06, 12:41 PM
If you really want to be traditional, be like the welsh and speak our true tongue.
Wow :shock: How many centuries would we have to go back for that ? Even then I'd take bets there was regional variations to it :wink:
As I Lancastrian I'm hardly best placed to comment on spoken English, but at least I can, when pushed, mind my P's and Q's (and t's, h's, th's etc etc :lol: :lol:)
Im awaiting for the deport the immigrants post.
That would be be ridiculous.
Many immigrants speak and write far better English than the English. Perhaps because they have actually been taught English. Whereas, there seems to be an attitude that we the English should learn it from our parents and peers.
No wonder the sins of the parents are visited on the child.
I agree it would be ridiculous. But going by at least 2 recent threads its become quite apparent there are a few people on here that are happy to blame all the countries ills on immigrants and believe they should be deported even if it results in their murder.
Sorry, the sarcasm took over with that post. :oops: But I really wouldnt be surprised if said people surfaced suggesting it. :?
Scooby Drew
11-05-06, 12:44 PM
I am down with all of the above, it's all cool like except if you say 'My bad...' Use of that statement by an individual should be causation for them to be hanged by the neck until they are dead. And their corpse to be used for target pratice on a Scud missile testing range. :thumbsup:
IMHO
And incase the rope on the gallows fails, here is the firing squad.
:smt066 :smt067 :smt068 :smt070 :smt071
not that I find the use of the aformentioned quasi statement annoying at all...
:wink:
timwilky
11-05-06, 01:03 PM
While I to hate some slang talk, things like 'chav' talk and such annoy me, I have in my youth and adult hood butchered the English language. Still do now as my English skills are awful, I even still now pronounce the name of my home town with out a H. So its 'ayling, rather then Hayling.
As for my use of there, their and they're its just doesn't want talking about.
Our language is a beast of animal that is constantly evolving and growing, just like our lives and culture.
If you really want to be traditional, be like the welsh and speak our true tongue. What ever it was all those years ago... probably German or something.
Dan
Anyone who has ever met me will tell you I speak with a Lancashire accent. However, I am very conscious of this and when away from my own village I attempt to tone it down. Pronounciation is generally learnt for your peers. Hence the regional accents.
I am not calling for a return to any traditional English or god forbid the return of received pronunciation to the media. I just think that pride is lacking, not for a long forgotten era, but in the person. How can anyone, who would rather run with the pack instead instead of evolving for themselves have any pride.
You recognise you make mistakes with your language. We all do. To myself, the next step would be to try to rectify the mistakes. Whilst extremely difficult with speech, there is no reason for text speak, street slang etc to enter into use. Engage brain and think before you speak.
The "Whatever", I don't care attitude of todays youth leaves me cold. It is no wonder many are unemployable, who would want to invest their time, money and effort into a lost cause.
ArtyLady
11-05-06, 01:04 PM
I was brought up by my parents to speak the "Queens English" but as soon as I started secondary school I adopted the "native" language spoken there which was semi-cockney. My mother used to despair!! "There is an H in Hat" etc she used to say! but I eventually "got back to speaking normally" but still find that my accent tends to adapt to whoever Im speaking to so when with my partner and mates (East End) I soon drop the H and Ts etc! but can also converse quite well with Barristers, Lawyers etc (when I worked as a legal secretary).
My Son speaks in Chav tounge which I find quite amusing - he is only doing exactly the same as I did. I never chastise him for it because I know he can speak correctly when need be - when he speaks to my parents/anyone he considers important he speaks normally but you should hear him on the phone to his mates - its unintelligible!! usually starts the sentence with the F word which is added in again at 3 word intervals, along with the word Man pronounced "Mun" every few words and plenty of "innit" and most words are "Jamaicanised". :roll:
I just try to keep up with the ever changing English language and new words - I often have the odd outburst of "am I bovvered/whatever" just for the fun of it (Im 47 btw!!). 8)
northwind
11-05-06, 01:07 PM
Anyone who has ever met me will tell you I speak with a Lancashire accent. However, I am very conscious of this and when away from my own village I attempt to tone it down.
The further away from home I am, the more scottish I get ;)
When I've travelled to America I try my best to speak correct English, even to point of over doing it. Sometimes being all 'Gosh old bean' and 'Golly good show', I also try the 'ello there my hartys', 'Any one for a pint of speckled hen'.
While on the bus from the plane at Dallus airport, I said 'Gosh, air-conditioning in a bus what a marvellous idea'... Everyone ****ed them-selfs, though some of the yanks looked a little baffled.
timwilky
11-05-06, 01:14 PM
When I've travelled to America I try my best to speak correct English, even to point of over doing it. Sometimes being all 'Gosh old bean' and 'Golly good show', I also try the 'ello there my hartys', 'Any one for a pint of speckled hen'.
Dan
you are indeed a gentleman, I will immediately take you up on your offer of a Speckled Hen. Good health.
Filipe M.
11-05-06, 01:16 PM
Excuse me while I drop my 2 cents (Euro obliged) in this thread, but the same phenomenon is happening here in Portugal as we speak. The "new generations" are slowly killing the Portuguese language as I knew it, and I don't find it funny at all. Evolution? Maybe it is, I can understand some of it, but it sure looks like pure and simples slackening, and for me that's the disgusting part of this so-called "evolution process"...
mudge32
11-05-06, 01:17 PM
When I've travelled to America I try my best to speak correct English, even to point of over doing it. Sometimes being all 'Gosh old bean' and 'Golly good show', I also try the 'ello there my hartys', 'Any one for a pint of speckled hen'.
While on the bus from the plane at Dallus airport, I said 'Gosh, air-conditioning in a bus what a marvellous idea'... Everyone p*ssed them-selfs, though some of the yanks looked a little baffled.
That'd be because our American brethren think we're all either jolly posh, or, have a Cockney accent. Thanks Disney :roll: :lol:
mudge32
11-05-06, 01:19 PM
Excuse me while I drop my 2 cents (Euro obliged) in this thread, but the same phenomenon is happening here in Portugal as we speak.
The Portuguese are becoming Chavs ?? :shock:
Filipe M.
11-05-06, 01:20 PM
Excuse me while I drop my 2 cents (Euro obliged) in this thread, but the same phenomenon is happening here in Portugal as we speak.
The Portuguese are becoming Chavs ?? :shock:
Well not all of them, but we do get our fair share of the species... :roll:
When I've travelled to America I try my best to speak correct English, even to point of over doing it. Sometimes being all 'Gosh old bean' and 'Golly good show', I also try the 'ello there my hartys', 'Any one for a pint of speckled hen'.
Dan
you are indeed a gentleman, I will immediately take you up on your offer of a Speckled Hen. Good health.
I'm more a pint of Directors or Spitfire man me-self.
While I to hate some slang talk, things like 'chav' talk and such annoy me, I have in my youth and adult hood butchered the English language. Still do now as my English skills are awful, I even still now pronounce the name of my home town with out a H. So its 'ayling, rather then Hayling.
As for my use of there, their and they're its just doesn't want talking about.
Our language is a beast of animal that is constantly evolving and growing, just like our lives and culture.
If you really want to be traditional, be like the welsh and speak our true tongue. What ever it was all those years ago... probably German or something.
:winner:
I agree it would be ridiculous. But going by at least 2 recent threads its become quite apparent there are a few people on here that are happy to blame all the countries ills on immigrants and believe they should be deported even if it results in their murder.
Sorry, the sarcasm took over with that post. :oops: But I really wouldnt be surprised if said people surfaced suggesting it. :?
Wonder who your referring to there huh.... :roll: But i don't bother you :lol:
English in this country is appauling. Teaching in this country is about grades and not education, given the attitude of todays teenagers, can you blame the teachers for not being arsed.... Primary school teachers are all over teh place, upper school teaching, well who wants to deal witha load of gobby teenagers with no respect or disciplin, then have to mark all the work after.... No-one...
Another thing thats needs radical change in this country.
johnnyrod
11-05-06, 03:05 PM
Got to agree, and don't get me started on maths, I work in science and the inability of people to figure out how many noughts go on the end of something, let alone if the numbers in front change...
Is it all going a bit 1984? The dictionary is getting fatter, though by adding words that have evolved/sprouted like weeds, at least you have somewhere to look up this crap. The language will evolve, it's likely that the rapid communication we have these days is just making it quicker. It's made up of people talking to each other, so to a certain extent it's up to them how they do it, provided however you can make out what they're on about. The word "chortle" I think came from Alice in Wonderland or something similar. Dylan Thomas was always making up or using verbs from nouns.
I was taught proper English and the apostrophes etc. really grate my XXXX. By the way, if i remember rightly the best pronunciation in the UK is in Inverness, Hs after Ws and all that.
“The young always have the same problem - how to rebel and conform at the same time. They have now solved this by defying their parents and copying one another.”
Quentin Crisp quotes (English Author, 1908-1999)
but then:
“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.”
Hesiod quotes (Greek poets, "the father of Greek didactic poetry", 700bc)
so dont worry about it! us youthful ones are here to wreck your views! we always have been and so were you!!
UlsterSV
11-05-06, 03:37 PM
Yeah, agree 100% timwilky. Cracks me up when people can't even bother their **** to speak proper English. Progression of the language is one thing, but is the way some people talk today really progress? I don't think it is. I have to say however the people who make me cringe are largely the ones I see on tv, and are people outside of Northern Ireland. Not everyone over here speaks perfect English, not at all, but we haven't made a calculated effort to make a mockery of it like some people unfortunately have.
northwind
11-05-06, 04:04 PM
We should switch to esperanto. Or the Universal Character. That'd teach them.
English in this country is appauling. Teaching in this country is about grades and not education, given the attitude of todays teenagers, can you blame the teachers for not being arsed.... Primary school teachers are all over teh place, upper school teaching, well who wants to deal witha load of gobby teenagers with no respect or disciplin, then have to mark all the work after.... No-one...
Another thing thats needs radical change in this country.
I totally agree with you! I too work in a school and I think it is all about respect, which unfortunatley the children of today have none. When I was at school you had respect for your elders. You did as you were told.
The teenagers of today have no repect what so ever. They are told to do one thing and out of sheer disrespect they do the total opposite.
They are told to sit up straight so they slouch.
They are told to be quiet and all hell breaks loose.
They are told to speak properly and straight away they start talking like they are talking to one of their peers.
And this is all before the lesson begins!!
Teachers are on a losing streak because they can not chastise, or punish the disrespectful or disruptive ones.
And the parents have the cheek to blame the teachers!
northwind
11-05-06, 04:17 PM
Teachers are on a losing streak because they can not chastise, or punish the disrespectful or disruptive ones.
There's more to it than that... Must be, I entered school after corporal punishment was banned and we weren't like that- at least, not many of us, and those that were little scumbags wouldn't have been deterred by a bit of punishment. I don't think teachers are any worse for that matter- the majority at my old high school are the same ones that taught me, and most were fine.
Not that I like the Americanisation of our language. And the use of Z instead of S does annoy me a little. I view it as the person posting cant make the simplest of efforts, so why should I spend any attempting to decode it? Tend to ignore most people who do that now.
Actually the use of a Z in "ize" is correct (certainly from a classical viewpoint) for most terminations in the British variant of the English language and is favoured by the OED 8-[ . Though it is now accepted that the use of an S is also correct, and TBH I usually use an S as I get fed up with people thinking I've made a mistake :lol: .
.
The Basket
11-05-06, 04:35 PM
English comes from the Anglo-Saxon invaders (and later rulers and settlers) from about 500 AD onwards and is not natural of these islands. Then we have the Vikings and the Normans and what was left of Celtic-Roman England. Which is why English is not phonetic but a mixed bag.
The good ol' US of A is the driving force of modern english and where today's sayings come from. Blame Knight Rider and MTV
Even lost our own language!!!
Peter Henry
11-05-06, 04:54 PM
Best way to avoid concerns about the falling standards of the English language is to move abroad like I did! :P
Wonder who your referring to there huh.... :roll: But i don't bother you :lol:
I hate to break it to your ego, but you werent in mind at all when I wrote that. :P
English in this country is appauling. Teaching in this country is about grades and not education, given the attitude of todays teenagers, can you blame the teachers for not being arsed.... Primary school teachers are all over teh place, upper school teaching, well who wants to deal witha load of gobby teenagers with no respect or disciplin, then have to mark all the work after.... No-one...
Another thing thats needs radical change in this country.
Actually something I agree with. But the problem starts at home. If a child is raised without respect, they wont learn respect. There was a good poem about that somewhere, will go dig it out.
Frankly, the idea of parenting classes for some parents wasnt a bad idea. Im truly shocked by the attitude of some. One kid run out of sight of his mother, got hold of a trolley outside the entrance of Tescos and rammed it into my bike. Then into a car. When I had words with the mother, I got a torrent of abuse for daring to criticise. :evil:
I can't stand parents like that! How self righeous to think that they're "little darling" is perfect. We all know children are not perfect!
Except mine of course! :smt083 :wink:
I am a mother myself and If that were me I would have made my daughter stand there and apologise and then I would have punished them i.e toys taken away, no tv, no treats etc. then I would have died of the embarrasment!!
Some parents have such a lax attitude that it makes us "normal" parents look and feel like we are abusing our children by trying to teach them right from wrong.
I can't stand parents like that! How self righeous to think that they're "little darling" is perfect. We all know children are not perfect!
Except mine of course! :smt083 :wink:
I am a mother myself and If that were me I would have made my daughter stand there and apologise and then I would have punished them i.e toys taken away, no tv, no treats etc. then I would have died of the embarrasment!!
Some parents have such a lax attitude that it makes us "normal" parents look and feel like we are abusing our children by trying to teach them right from wrong. I agree your not even aloud to chastise your own children now without the threat of someone reporting you for child abuse!!!!
Not everyone over here speaks perfect English, not at all, but we haven't made a calculated effort to make a mockery of it like some people unfortunately have.
True. I love the Northern Irish accent. When I went for a job interview in 1995, the MD was from Belfast and the first challenge was to understand a word he said. In fact the HR woman had to interpret some of it for me.
UlsterSV
11-05-06, 09:15 PM
Not everyone over here speaks perfect English, not at all, but we haven't made a calculated effort to make a mockery of it like some people unfortunately have.
True. I love the Northern Irish accent. When I went for a job interview in 1995, the MD was from Belfast and the first challenge was to understand a word he said. In fact the HR woman had to interpret some of it for me.
:lol: I suppose it could be quite a tricky accent to 'translate'. And I am yet to hear someone from outside of Ireland do a good imitation of it :lol:
The Basket
11-05-06, 09:21 PM
Language is form of communication. Not a law or cast in stone.
More an art than science.
Beaniebike
11-05-06, 09:31 PM
[quote="lynw]
English in this country is appauling. Teaching in this country is about grades and not education, given the attitude of todays teenagers, can you blame the teachers for not being arsed.... Primary school teachers are all over teh place, upper school teaching, well who wants to deal witha load of gobby teenagers with no respect or disciplin, then have to mark all the work after.... No-one...
Another thing thats needs radical change in this country.
I've been seeing quitre a lot about education / teachers in this thread, so, I'm going to take the bait!
I am a primary teacher in Scotland. For some time now, we have been striving to do our best to raise achievement in all areas of the curriculum, one such area being Language (as it is called in Primary). There has actually been quite a lot of success in this field, so much so, the whole Literacy Hour concept, and the methods used to teach Language in England and Wales, has pretty much been a reflection on what has been happening in Scotland for years.
I refer to you comment about primary teachers being all over the place...What exactly did you mean by that? I certainly would not describe my, or the vast majority of my colleagues, practice as "all over the place". Maybe I haven't understood your statement however.
As for education being all about grades. To a certain degree, I agree with your sentiment, and also despair at this appauling ethos. However, this comes from those outwith education - ie politicians! I did not go into education to get the children in my care through the next test successfully (although there can be a place for this also). One of the main problems is that society is demanding a raising of standards. This is basically where the demand for grades has come from. People also demand the evidence of this actually happening - ie grades!
There are a number of initiatives that are coming into force in Scotland to try and address some of these issues. "Assessment is for Learning" and "A Curriculum for Excellence" being 2 of them.
For the record, I actually love my job and find it most rewarding, despite teaching in an area where there are many, many social problems. I deal with the gobby teenage type on a regular basis, and actually want to continue doing it!
I shall decend from the lofty heights of my soap box now!! :D
=D> :winner:
fantastic, the world maybe needs a few more like u!
anyway I've been thinking alot more about this whole language and respect thing but it strikes me that the seed must have been planted somewhere! so yes lets educate parents about language and to instill respect in their children :thumbsup:
:cat:
Beaniebike
11-05-06, 09:48 PM
=D> :winner:
fantastic, the world maybe needs a few more like u!
anyway I've been thinking alot more about this whole language and respect thing but it strikes me that the seed must have been planted somewhere! so yes lets educate parents about language and to instill respect in their children :thumbsup:
:cat:
Why, thankyou. You're too kind!!
Its not language, its society in general. You would never have seen Geordies trying to speak the queens english.
Its not todays youth that should be blamed, its the youth of 20-30 yrs ago who should be, those who now have kids but couldnt give a rats **** about them. :?
Saint Matt
11-05-06, 10:21 PM
Seriously hate txt speak, and also needless bad speeling, for example "lyke" instead of like, that is seriously bad.
Godikus
11-05-06, 10:27 PM
naw by the way, oor language is goin' right doon the pan. it's bang outa order. i'm gunno go right ahead :roll:
seriously though it's gettin' pretty damn bad up here. it's gotten to the point where i can't even uderstand the majority of people in my own town :cry:
Anonymous
11-05-06, 11:17 PM
A student submitted an essay to me that started: "When people think about the Royal Family, they think of huge balls and big spectacles."
She was a final year Advertising Management student......and wondered why I was unimpressed.
A student submitted an essay to me that started: "When people think about the Royal Family, they think of huge balls and big spectacles."
She was a final year Advertising Management student......and wondered why I was unimpressed.
:roll: crazy lols
Anonymous
11-05-06, 11:24 PM
A student submitted an essay to me that started: "When people think about the Royal Family, they think of huge balls and big spectacles."
She was a final year Advertising Management student......and wondered why I was unimpressed.
:roll: crazy lols
You can walk! You can walk!!
(err....it means I'm pleased you can now post replies....)
lols yaaaaaaaaayyyyyy !!! luv you el boc *gives kiss-on cheek!*
we'll have none of that funny business here! ooer
Anonymous
11-05-06, 11:29 PM
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Steady on! We old geezers can't take a lot of that you know.....not without doubling the prophylactic aspirin.....
lols sorry
will steady on from now on!
[quote=Daimo][quote="lynw]
I am a primary teacher in Scotland. For some time now, we have been striving to do our best to raise achievement in all areas of the curriculum, one such area being Language (as it is called in Primary). There has actually been quite a lot of success in this field, so much so, the whole Literacy Hour concept, and the methods used to teach Language in England and Wales, has pretty much been a reflection on what has been happening in Scotland for years.
Sorry, talk of the subject, bad english on my part :lol: (was in a rush)..
I meant as in I know of lots of people who would love to do primary shccol teaching (i even done it for a few weeks, was quite a laugh).
Where-as
People are being more and more scared off being an upper school teacher.
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Steady on! We old geezers can't take a lot of that you know.....not without doubling the prophylactic aspirin.....
Hows Camilla El Boc?
Beaniebike
12-05-06, 03:01 PM
[quote=Daimo][quote="lynw]
I am a primary teacher in Scotland. For some time now, we have been striving to do our best to raise achievement in all areas of the curriculum, one such area being Language (as it is called in Primary). There has actually been quite a lot of success in this field, so much so, the whole Literacy Hour concept, and the methods used to teach Language in England and Wales, has pretty much been a reflection on what has been happening in Scotland for years.
Sorry, talk of the subject, bad english on my part :lol: (was in a rush)..
I meant as in I know of lots of people who would love to do primary shccol teaching (i even done it for a few weeks, was quite a laugh).
Where-as
People are being more and more scared off being an upper school teacher.
LOL - fair enough! Thing is though, we actually have to face some dreadful situations in schools. There have been incidences such as kids with knives in school etc in primary as well. Very scarey. Also, we have to deal with parents who, have at times in my experience, become threatening. This is few and far between thankfully!
Anonymous
12-05-06, 03:43 PM
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Steady on! We old geezers can't take a lot of that you know.....not without doubling the prophylactic aspirin.....
Hows Camilla El Boc?
Hey Tara! Not personally corresponded with her of late but she did, I understand, take umbrage at the TG thread (below) and apparently is looking forward to seeing Cap'n Nemo and the lads at the TT.......
GSXR Carlos
13-05-06, 02:41 PM
I GOT BORED OF READING ALL YOUR DRIVEL (sp?) SO HERE'S MY TUPENCE WORTH
Stop moaning, get on with it, it's old fuddy duddies (sorry mr and mrs fud :wink: )
like Mr Wilky that hold this country back :lol:
Embrace the future, who cares anyway, soon we'll all talk through programs like msn and never actually verbally communicate with each other anyway
But i do have to agree in principal, i get myself into trouble with my girlfriend because i'm always correcting her when she speaks, because i've been treated much in the same way by my family, especially my grand parents
Interestingly my gran's from durham and in recent years we've heard her slip back into more common geordie phrases that i've not heard her say before, must be a semi concious thing we all do
i think the key is to know when we are or aren't doing it, which most little scrotes nowadays (listen to me i'm only 22 :lol: ) don't realise
:roll:
the_runt69
13-05-06, 06:50 PM
lynw, for once I agree with you even if your trying to drag an old thread up and derail this one. The poem you mention hangs by the kitchen door its called Children live what they learn
" If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives hostility, he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame, he learns to be guilty.
If a Child lives with tolerence, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
Id a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world."
H
philipMac
14-05-06, 05:35 PM
Tools for the job.
Language is there to move information around clearly and concisely, first and foremost. Secondarily, it can do so with an elegance that leads to good literature.
You have to be dispassionate about Language, it is a tool. It is not a badge that we wair to try and prove we are better than others. This is what tends to happen though. We tend to associate certain accents with certain educational backgrounds.
I feel that this is a massive mistake to make. In school, there were two genuinely sharp kids in my year. One was hunted down and dragged off to Oxford when they finished up, and one was swallowed by Oracle. I talked like both of them, but I know that our accent isnt highly regarded. So it goes.
The point is that, as a human, you modify how you speak to get as much information across as possible, in the shortest time. This can involve putting on Jamacan accents, talking in a snooty way, or thinking very carefully about being concise. Pretending to be something you're not annoys me. But, it is being done for a reason.
I have no fears for the English languge. Like many have said, it evolves, and this is exactly what it is meant to do. Tools for the job at hand.
I also feel this holier than though, French Uber Alles attitude some of France has is irritating and snobby. You have some room full of old french men, dictating the language to, essentially, the imigrants and young. Where in fact, these people are the boiler house for the language. You want to put French in a chained off zoo? Ok go for it. It will not stop evolving though.
I also feel this holier than though, French Uber Alles attitude some of France has is irritating and snobby. You have some room full of old french men, dictating the language to, essentially, the imigrants and young. Where in fact, these people are the boiler house for the language. You want to put French in a chained off zoo? Ok go for it. It will not stop evolving though.
amen!!!!
northwind
14-05-06, 06:21 PM
You want to put the French in a chained off zoo?
It's tempting sometimes...
lynw, for once I agree with you even if your trying to drag an old thread up and derail this one.
Actually that wasnt what I was trying to do. It was just plain, old fashioned sarcasm. Sorry. :wink: :P :lol:
The poem you mention hangs by the kitchen door its called Children live what they learn
" If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives hostility, he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame, he learns to be guilty.
If a Child lives with tolerence, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
Id a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world."
H
Thankyou for that. I do like that poem because it does hit the nail on the head pretty much.
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