K3 - Black Smoke - Will not idle - Checked Plugs

[robertwo]

Ok, got a late 2003 K3 which to be honest has hardly been used in the last year or so.

Uncovered it after about 11 months, 2 or 3 weeks back, and took her out for the day and all run perfectly. Hasd pump the tyres, fuel, chain usual stuff first!

Now, got a new job Monday in London, jumped on the bike and headed off up the M40, all going great apart from the rain, until I hit traffic on the Marylebone Road, at which point the bike just cut out on me - back wheel locked up by no big problem. started her back up and had to keep her revving around 2-3K all the way in.

So parked up and left the bike all day (6 hours) and jumped back ona nd went home.. All fine until about 5 minutes from home when it started raining again!

Tuesday, same thing really but this time when I got home gave the bike a bit if a service after reading some post of this site about water getting down the front spark plug... So new plugs (gap 0.7mm) new oil filter and oil, kicked her over fired up straight away and purred away quite happily. Great problem solved.. or so I thought!!!

Wednesday, dry day, not a problem in or out of London!!

Thursday, fine all the wayt in again until I hit the Marylebone Road... had to rev taround 2-3k all the way to work again!! Pleanty of black smoke coming out of the back, running really rough like only on one cylinder. Left her all day, same thing when I started her up!

So, got down to the BP on the A40 after Hanger Lane, low on fuel so thought I'd stop and fill up... that was a mistake!! Could harly keep her running again!! So on the BP forecourt I had all the plugs out, sprayed some WD-40 in the leads and flushed out the front cylinder around the plug and the drain hole (basicly filled it with WD-40 with my finger over the drain hole and then let it run out a coupple of times. No difference what so ever, managed to keep her going to get back home.

I have had the plugs and leads off again, cleaned the plugs up as the were completley black (2 days old), reset the gap..

Still same problem,

1. she will not idle (maybe for a few seconds).
2. black smoke out the back
3. running lumpy
4. revving her up judders to start with then just bits up, but is still lumpy when revving
5. black, sooty plugs after two days
6. checked the air filter looks ok
7. checked coil cables - look ok!
8. Silicon greased around the front lead to seal it up, and has been WD-40'd
9. Drain hole is completley clear

If anyone has any idea what I can do next, please give me a hint as I desperatley need the bike for work, and none of the bike shops round here can do any work for weeks!

I was wondering if water might have got in to the fuel! Would this cause these problems? The bike lives outside as I do not have a garage or shed! How can I flush the tank through, and do I need to do anything else since it is fuel injected rather than carbs?

Could it be an electrical problem? Any suggestions please?

Cheers for any help you guys can give.

[amarko5]

might i point you to this thread :?:

could be a possibility :wink:

http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=37490

[Biker Biggles]

Sounds like running rich..Don't know how you deal with it on the FI bikes though.

[robertwo]

Ok, have tried everything in the thread, both plugs are sparking - arcing around a bit but not sure if thats supposed to happen.

One thing I did notice was that I could feel it off the lead every time it sparked...

Plugs were really fouled when i took them out - completley black all over! Cleaned them up and dried them out and put them back in - still same problem!

[amarko5]

Ok, have tried everything in the thread, both plugs are sparking - arcing around a bit but not sure if thats supposed to happen.

One thing I did notice was that I could feel it off the lead every time it sparked...

Plugs were really fouled when i took them out - completley black all over! Cleaned them up and dried them out and put them back in - still same problem!

did you get a shock everytime :?: if so i would assume there is a lot of damp in/ on your leads .

check back to the coils as well check the small wires and connections for dampness and condition

[amarko5]

have you determined which cylinder is not firing ?

Sids water test :wink:

if yes have you tried swapping plugs over to see if fault transfers to other cylinder ?

if fault transfers then plugs are the problem if it doesn't then still on the water route if cylinder faulty is the front.

did it have the same petrol in it for 11 months ? if so how full was the tank (condensation builds up on the inside of half empty tanks) and after 11 months the petrol was probably shot anyway.

howevr i digress because your problem seems to manifest on wet days i still think there is water in the electrical sysstem somewhere, but do try the plug swap :wink:

[robertwo]

Yer, I could feel the shock in my fingers everytime of the rear cylinder, not the front though!

I did the water test on the front pipe, but not the rear (stupid I know)... the front was fine! Will have to check the back!

One thing I did try was running the bike with one of the leads disconnected, rear first front second, sounded pretty much the same, didn't pick up or slow down the engine!

The plugs have been swapped round (also the are only two days old) and both sparked when I had them out! The front plug was quite wet though when I took it out, and the back dry!

[robertwo]

Sorry, it had about half a tank, maybe less in it over the months...

I ran it the first time I took her out this year on that fuel, and topped her up with Shell Optimax twice that day! All was good, but left the bike uncovered from then until monday when I used the bike again to got to work, and we've had a lot of rain!

I did use the bike for 8 months when I first had it (31st December 2003), to communte to london, and never had a problem with rain.... and it rained a lot that winter :?

[amarko5]

Yer, I could feel the shock in my fingers everytime of the rear cylinder, not the front though!

I did the water test on the front pipe, but not the rear (stupid I know)... the front was fine! Will have to check the back!

One thing I did try was running the bike with one of the leads disconnected, rear first front second, sounded pretty much the same, didn't pick up or slow down the engine!

The plugs have been swapped round (also the are only two days old) and both sparked when I had them out! The front plug was quite wet though when I took it out, and the back dry!

the front plug being wet would indicate thats the problem cylinder, and just cos the plugs are new does not mean you have not got a faulty one (it has happened to me about 5 times over 25 odd years ie. getting a duff plug.

if you got a shock off the back lead it surprises me (but by no means impossible)

there is a possibility i suppose of your injectors being blocked by crap petrol ( but that would not just manifest itself on wet days.

have you a fan heater or a hair dryer you can utilise on the plug caps / leads / coils (particularly the caps) try and get it really dry and see of the problem disappears.

I am prety much convinced its water ingress or plug problems , but vry hard to diagnose from 380 miles away :lol:

[robertwo]

I'm with your thinking on the water problem, and maybe crap petrol... you think water from sitting around in the petrol would cause any of these problems? Would it not just get blasted through by the injectors, unlike sitting around in carbs? I have filled and emptied the tank, atleast 3 times this week and twice while I was out for the day!

Do the leads come off completley? Can I remove them easily and dry them out with a hair dryer and then leave them in a warm place to dry off some more overnight? Is it just a case of putting my had up inside and disconnecting them from the coil?

I'll spend the £10, and pop out tomorrow and get two new plugs, I see your thinking on the problem, could have run fine for the first day and then become faulty!

I will also re-try all the water testes and swapping the plugs about tomorrow and se what happens. One thing, i assume when I trace the leads back there are 2 coils one on each side of the bike mounted to the frame?

[robertwo]

Is there anything I can add to the fuel to flush the injectors through?

With regards to the black plugs and it running rich, is that to much or to little air/fuel? Can never remember?

[amarko5]

Is there anything I can add to the fuel to flush the injectors through?

With regards to the black plugs and it running rich, is that to much or to little air/fuel? Can never remember?

do you not have the old plugs ?

you could try a car type redex treatment but i feel it's stil lthe wetness theory .

i dont think the leads come oit the coils and the caps may be glued on (some are some arn't) but deffo try a heater of some sort in the general direction. if this clears the problem then you have some waterproofing to do.

and buy a fender extender well worth the money :lol:

[robertwo]

Think I dumped the old plugs, and the dustmen came yesterday.. typical!!

I will take a look and try your suggestionstomorrow, will see if I can't get the whole coil and leads off tonight and dry them out though.

What do you reckon will need waterproofing apart from the front cap, which I have already applied a very good layer of silicon grease too...

Maybe, I should stop being so lazy and put the cover back on each night :?

[amarko5]

Think I dumped the old plugs, and the dustmen came yesterday.. typical!!

I will take a look and try your suggestionstomorrow, will see if I can't get the whole coil and leads off tonight and dry them out though.

What do you reckon will need waterproofing apart from the front cap, which I have already applied a very good layer of silicon grease too...

Maybe, I should stop being so lazy and put the cover back on each night :?


I would not hurt to silicone grease every connection you can dind to be honest.

if you do get the coils off and given a gentle waming through overnight the some silicone at the coil end on the lead would not go amiss neither.

keep us informed how you get on :lol:

[robertwo]

Will do!

Thanks for the help!

[robertwo]

An update....

Didn't do anything to the bike apart from charging the battery (usually have it connected up to a charger to maintaine the battery) and the bike started up fine in the morning.

Sent it in for the shop to take a look at but they didn't find anything either... Having a service tomorrow and have them check that the battery is ok and charging correctl, so will see if it helps!

[motorolly]

IF it still turns over on the starter after cutting out the charger and battery is fine.

Sounds like bad leads or coils. It could be water in either or just breaking down (breaking down coils become very tempermental particularly with temperature changes ie weather). Once water is in either its pretty tricky to dry completely and likely to happen again, I'd replace both. You can tell which cylinder is running by licking your finger and tapping the pipe to see if it fizes. Swap the coils and leads and see if the dead cylinder changes. If it does its Ebay time :)

Other possibility with it being FI is that there is crud in the injector/s stopping it closing/sealing properly so its running very rich. Injector cleaner in the fuel might work or more drastic cleaning/replacing.

Its strange that the rear lead shocked you but both plugs were sooted, the lead may be a red herring. Checked all the CDI/EFI connections for water or corrosion? TLRs had one under the right of the fairing that caused a lot of problems and a recall I think.

[amarko5]

Swap the coils and leads and see if the dead cylinder changes. If it does its Ebay time :)



I hope your not condoning selling faulty items on ebay :P :wink:

Shame on you :lol:

[motorolly]

I usually stick to buying faulty goods on Ebay :roll:
Nah just swap em if one if faulty look for a new one on Ebay.

[robertwo]

Ok, had the bike fully serviced today and had the guy check everything over while he was at it.

The only thing that he could find that might have caused the problem was that the Air Filter box was not connected to the front FI unit properly, so he reckoned that when riding in the wet damp air was being pulled straight in and causing the problem.

He seemed to think all the coils, leads, plugs etc e were all ok, and the battery charging was reading around the 14.5 volts at 3000-4000 rpm.

I've been on the bike all week so far and no problems, plus it sounds different now it's been service and the idle is much smoother.

Should have noticed the filter box not being connected properly when I had the tank up, but hey wasn't really looking for it.

If the problem comes back when it starts raining again, I'll swap out the coils and see if it makes a difference, but until then problem is solved...... just the Scottoiler to fit this weekend and a clean :?

A thank you to Central Bikes (http://www.centralbikes.co.uk) for all their help and excellent service. They were a lot cheaper than my local bike shop, and they will come collect your bike and return it to you if you are around the West End in London... Full service, battery check and rear pads changed came to £165 (£130 Service, £10 Battery Check, £25 Pads Changed), better than the £230+ I was quoted elsewhere.

[amarko5]

Ok, had the bike fully serviced today and had the guy check everything over while he was at it.

The only thing that he could find that might have caused the problem was that the Air Filter box was not connected to the front FI unit properly, so he reckoned that when riding in the wet damp air was being pulled straight in and causing the problem.

.

I suppose if the rubber was not fitted to the intake properly then yes water may be able to work its way into the throttle body's.

entirely feasable but i still think it was electrical and you found and fixed it by fiddling :wink: :lol: