Turning, cornering, bends etc

[Kinvig]

Anyone got any tips on doing the above? And when to/not to use counter steering?

Was a bit fed up with the M3 making my throttle hand go numb over the weekend so I went onto the A roads to try a few twisties & realise that this is an area tha I could do with improving.

Hints & tips gladly appreciated, or alternatively a cure for a numb wrist!

D.

[Viney]

Look where you want to go.

[fizzwheel]

How long have you been riding ?

If not very long then forget about countersteering its just going to confuse you.

The best tip I can give you is to turn your head and look through the corner, look at where you want the bike to go and the bike will follow you.

Get your braking done before the corner and then hold a constant throttle until you see the corner begin to open out, then gently roll the throttle on drive the bike from the apex towards the exit of the corner. Try and be smooth and gentle with the throttle and progressively open the throttle.

[Demonz]

Anyone got any tips on doing the above? And when to/not to use counter steering?

Was a bit fed up with the M3 making my throttle hand go numb over the weekend so I went onto the A roads to try a few twisties & realise that this is an area tha I could do with improving.

Hints & tips gladly appreciated, or alternatively a cure for a numb wrist!

D. Pick up a copy of this months Ride magazine. It had some interesting tips and pointers in there on cornering.

[lukemillar]

You already counter-steer - you just don't realise it! I think what everyone is refering to is when you actively do it.

I would recommend having a read of Keith Code's Twist of the wrist I or II. If you get around the slighty odd American-esqe language and the fact that they feel the need to explain the definition of every word with more than 1 syllable at the end of every chapter, then it is a great read. Talks about what makes the bike composed through corners, things you should avoid etc. It is by no means the be all and end all, but is a good place to start.

The key is, as Fizz said, is to be smooth - don't try and go flat out, or fanny about with getting your knee on the tarmac. Be smooth with the bikes controls and you will improve/get faster naturally. Obviously practice plays a big part.

Hope that helps
Luke

[northwind]

I don't like Keith Code's writing... Not to criticise his work, just hte way he delivers it. Myself, I would say PRACTICE! Take it easy, lots of people go bombing into corners, brake hard, zoom out the other side- but if you slow it down a little that gives you the time to actually seriously consider what you're doing, instead of just reacting. Try and ride good slow corners instead of fast scrappy ones, would be my advice.

[skidmarx]

grip the tank with your knees and don't put too much wait on the handlebars as your cornering. Make sure your arms are relaxed and your elbows aren't locked. Turn your head in the direction you want to go not just your eyes. Practice active countersteering on a quiet road, once you get the feel for it you'll probably stop gripping the bars as if your life depended upon it and your hands and wrists will thankyou for it You are already countersteering though I'm sure you know that, but making it a conscious effort instead of unconcious will stop you fighting yourself and help you RELAX.
Oh and join IAM for some tuition. Good value!

[Viney]

forget about countersteering its just going to confuse you.
Remember that....i have been riding 8 years ish and i still have no idea what it is, how to do it, and how it benefits you at all, even after having it explained to me by a fair few people :?

[fizzwheel]

forget about countersteering its just going to confuse you.
Remember that....i have been riding 8 years ish and i still have no idea what it is, how to do it, and how it benefits you at all, even after having it explained to me by a fair few people :?

Viney, if you havent tried this already. Find a big long straight stretch of road. Make sure its quiet and theres no other traffic about. Take one hand off the handlebar. Then with the hand that is still on the handlebar. Push the other handlebar away from you and note what happens to the bike, that should explain it better than I can in writing.

I find it helps when I want to turn the bike quickly when I am going fast.

[Viney]

forget about countersteering its just going to confuse you.
Remember that....i have been riding 8 years ish and i still have no idea what it is, how to do it, and how it benefits you at all, even after having it explained to me by a fair few people :?

Viney, if you havent tried this already. Find a big long straight stretch of road. Make sure its quiet and theres no other traffic about. Take one hand off the handlebar. Then with the hand that is still on the handlebar. Push the other handlebar away from you and note what happens to the bike, that should explain it better than I can in writing.

I find it helps when I want to turn the bike quickly when I am going fast.

What??

Fizz, dont try. Its been told etc etc. I probbaly do it all the time, just when its explained it seems just plain wrong.

[fizzwheel]

What??

Fizz, dont try. Its been told etc etc. I probbaly do it all the time, just when its explained it seems just plain wrong.

It did the first few times when it was explained to me. You do it naturally if you didnt the bike wouldnt turn. The correct term for it should be "Active Countersteering" as all you are doing is exagerating the natural effect.

Seriously ride in a straight line and try it. If you dont wanna take one hand off the bar. Just push on your throttle hand and see what happens.

Sometime I find it easier to pull on the bar rather than push but this isnt strictly the correct way to do it.

When I see you next and we're on the bike's if you like follow me and I'll show you want I mean. Its easier to explain it then.

[Viney]

So what you are saying is that when you steer into the corner, you push the bars into the direcetion that you are conering.

Soooo

Left hand bend, push on the right bar etc

If so, then that to me isnt counter steering. Counter to me, means the opposite. So if you where goinging into a left hand bend you would push on the left, hence my confusion.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

So what you are saying is that when you steer into the corner, you push the bars into the direcetion that you are conering.

Soooo

Left hand bend, push on the right bar etc

If so, then that to me isnt counter steering. Counter to me, means the opposite. So if you where goinging into a left hand bend you would push on the left, hence my confusion.

Er, no, if you're going into a left hand bend you push on the left hand bar.

It's called counter steering because you're turning the wheel to point in the opposite direction to that which you're turning.

[skidmarx]

Everybody countersteers, thats what tips the bike over in the first place. But awareness of doing it DOES make it more controllable and allows you to turn much quicker in an emergency as well as correcting a line you've got wrong mid corner.....if your just doing it subconsciously, then there is a tendency to fight yourself by gripping steady with one hand ( the conscious sense making part of your brain) whilst pushing or pulling with the other to countersteer around a corner ( the unconscious part of your brain that is actually getting you around the corner!)
This was VERY stressfull for me until I worked out what I was doing wrong.

[fizzwheel]

So what you are saying is that when you steer into the corner, you push the bars into the direcetion that you are conering.

Soooo

Left hand bend, push on the right bar etc

If so, then that to me isnt counter steering. Counter to me, means the opposite. So if you where goinging into a left hand bend you would push on the left, hence my confusion.

Er, no, if you're going into a left hand bend you push on the left hand bar.

It's called counter steering because you're turning the wheel to point in the opposite direction to that which you're turning.

Thank you Jordan. You managed to say what I've been trying to type out and deleting and re-writing for the last few minutes :oops:

[Peter Henry]

As mentioned by the folks...the best counter steering is actually done unconsciously which in itself will leave some left if some mid corner alteration is needed. Just lean that baby in and look through the corner.

I would disagree with gripping the tank with both knees when cornering. I would say once a little weight has been shifted to the side which will be on the inside of the turn....place some pressure on the tank with the outer knee,this will allow the knee on the low side to move away from the tank if you feel natural in doing that.

There are actually fewer things to get right for perefect cornering than you might think and most have been mentioned by the peeps:

Braking

Positioning

Lean

Look through the corner. :wink:

Me I'm sh*t at this anyways! :?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Hmmm. I'm not sure how unconcious counter-steering could be best. When you know you're doing it you can turn much faster :?

[Peter Henry]

Jordan...Well I can put it like this...I never knew a thing about counter steering until the past couple of years. I have ridden bikes since my teens and not at all slowly.

The point I am making is that I survived very well thankyou without a clue as to the dynamics of what was going on. :?

Turn in faster was simply a matter of lean more aggresively,nothing more. :wink:

[fizzwheel]

Hmmm. I'm not sure how unconcious counter-steering could be best. When you know you're doing it you can turn much faster :?

I think I know what Peter means. He means ( please correct me Peter if I have this wrong ) that if you just ride the bike. You countersteer anyway. From what I have read on the subject the natural dynamics of riding the bike mean that if you dont countersteer you dont go round the corner. I.e you do it naturally without thinking about it. therefore thats why he refers to it as unconcious counter-steering.

it is a bit confusing. Which is why I said above what it should be called is "Active counter steering" as what you are really doing is exagerating or amplifying the effect of what you do normally to get round a corner.

[Peter Henry]

Fizz...perfectly put sir. :wink:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Did you not get faster when you knew what was going on?

[fizzwheel]

Did you not get faster when you knew what was going on?

Yes I did. But its not something I learned how to use effectively overnight. I personally can't see it benefiting somebody who has just passed their test. A newbie rider IMHO is better of concentrating on the basics and then once they have got stuff like. Speed, gear, braking and corner position sorted etc then to start on coutersteering.

Liz has been using countersteering actively for a while now. Her riding has got smoother and faster, her chicken strips have gone completely and her MPG has gone up.

[Peter Henry]

Jordan,

If I am totally honest being conscious of countersteering and on occasion applying some mid corner did bring a different aspect to my riding. Having this knowledge I would have to suggest makes me a safer rider than I ever was.

Despite me having a bike with far superior chassis and suspension components to anything I have previously owned, I am not sure that I am faster...but certainly far more confidant due to being more in control...mentally if not physically. If that makes any sense? :?

[lukemillar]

I don't want to derail this thread but it is cornering related, so there!

How do people brake/change gear/blipping the throttle when hard on the brakes after a long straight. Say from 6th to 3rd or 2nd for a roundabout/tight corner? I'm curious as I have been doing a lot of riding over the weekend, and this is something I'd like to work on.

Luke

[fizzwheel]

I don't want to derail this thread but it is cornering related, so there!

How do people brake/change gear/blipping the throttle when hard on the brakes after a long straight. Say from 6th to 3rd or 2nd for a roundabout/tight corner? I'm curious as I have been doing a lot of riding over the weekend, and this is something I'd like to work on.

Luke

Dunno I dont really think about it. I just tend to brake hard and then change down through the gearbox till I've got to the right speed for the corner / roundabout and then hold it on the throttle till I have got to the apex and then back onto the throttle again. You dont need to give it big handful when you blip. Just enough to pick the revs up thats all. If I'm braking really hard I'll grip the tank more with my knees to stop myself sliding forward, that way I dont need to support so much of my upper body on weight with my arms so I can keep them a bit looser which means I can move my arms and wrists about to work the controls a little easier.

What specific element are you struggling with ?

[DanAbnormal]

or fanny about with getting your knee on the tarmac.

How could you say that! Take it back! :D

I guess if you're not comfortable cornering normally then I would have to agree. Experience helps. Confidence grows with more experience. Good tyres can help as well, the standard SV tyres (dunlop d220) are not the most confidence inducing tyres accoring to some, although I've not had any problems in the dry.

[lukemillar]

I don't want to derail this thread but it is cornering related, so there!

How do people brake/change gear/blipping the throttle when hard on the brakes after a long straight. Say from 6th to 3rd or 2nd for a roundabout/tight corner? I'm curious as I have been doing a lot of riding over the weekend, and this is something I'd like to work on.

Luke

Dunno I dont really think about it. I just tend to brake hard and then change down through the gearbox till I've got to the right speed for the corner / roundabout and then hold it on the throttle till I have got to the apex and then back onto the throttle again. You dont need to give it big handful when you blip. Just enough to pick the revs up thats all. If I'm braking really hard I'll grip the tank more with my knees to stop myself sliding forward, that way I dont need to support so much of my upper body on weight with my arms so I can keep them a bit looser which means I can move my arms and wrists about to work the controls a little easier.

What specific element are you struggling with ?

Not really struggling - just want to get smoother. I pretty much do what you say, especially with gripping the tank to stop myself from sliding forward. More to do with changing whilst still on the brakes or finishing braking then block change. With blipping do you do it before or after changing down?

I'm guessing a lot of this is down to the rider/corner/whether a car is coming round the roundabout etc. but I'm just interested in what people do.

[lukemillar]

or fanny about with getting your knee on the tarmac.

How could you say that! Take it back! :D

I guess if you're not comfortable cornering normally then I would have to agree.

Exactly! I was thinking about this over the weekend and I can't think of anywhere were I would have been quicker if my knee was down. Most places I would in fact have to go slower so that I didn't bin it!

Anyway, one friend at work says that knee down is for wusses - elbow down is where the real men hang out! :lol:

(more commonly know as A&E!)

[DanAbnormal]

When changing down I have two fingers on the brake lever so that I can still blip the throttle. I've never had any problems stopping this way. I use the rule that slow in fast out, although this does not mean I come out of the corner wheeling like Rossi. I always look as far down the road as I can and judge speed accordingly, this in turn helps with smoothness as you are not (well most times) caught out and then forced to brake hard while leant over. I think reading the road is one of the biggest keys to being a smoother rider. Have you tried maybe some advanced lessons with an instructor? Whereabouts are you based, I know a friend who taught me and (not to blow my own trumpet) I can corner very well and consider myself to be a very smooth rider.

[DanAbnormal]

Anyway, one friend at work says that knee down is for wusses - elbow down is where the real men hang out! :lol:

(more commonly know as A&E!)

heheh. Yep ended up there a couple of times. You're not a REAL man until you get both knees and your head down all at the same time. Although I don't recommend it!

Hanging off the bike actually allows you to take a corner a heck of a lot quicker. All to do with lean angle and tyre contact patch. But this is for later.

[lukemillar]

Have you tried maybe some advanced lessons with an instructor? Whereabouts are you based, I know a friend who taught me and (not to blow my own trumpet) I can corner very well and consider myself to be a very smooth rider.

I'm 90% sure I'm going to sign up for CSS at Silverstone in October. I know it's not cheap, but it is something that is recognised by my insurance broker, so in the long run it's not so bad.

[fizzwheel]

Not really struggling - just want to get smoother. I pretty much do what you say, especially with gripping the tank to stop myself from sliding forward. More to do with changing whilst still on the brakes or finishing braking then block change. With blipping do you do it before or after changing down?

I'm guessing a lot of this is down to the rider/corner/whether a car is coming round the roundabout etc. but I'm just interested in what people do.

Thats just practice. I really dont like block changing. I find a quick succession of down changes whilst braking hard works for me much better. When I'm really braking hard it litterally is blip and shift down, clutch out just for a moment then blip and change down again.

Your blip should be done with the clutch in just as you change from one gear down to another. It does take a little bit of practice to do it right.

Sounds to me like you are not at the moment giving yourself enough time to get everything done before you get to a corner.

Give yourself a bit more time whilst you hone your technique. Try braking a little earlier and then going down through the gears and braking. Braking hard and handfulls of throttle to blip is IMHO likely to unsettle the bike on its suspension which is not what you want to do. Take a bit more time and do it smoothly what you want is a smooth transistion from the brakes to a constant throttle so that it sets you up nicely to fire the bike out of the corner once you have got to the apex.

Bear in mind I'm no riding instructor so what I say isnt gospel truth and that it also might not work for you. Best way to learn all this is time on the bike IMHO.

HTH

[Sid Squid]

just want to get smoother.

Slow down a bit - seriously.

Take time to think about what's happening and why, if you try to go quick you'll make all of the mistakes that you commonly make, (and we all do), and you'll hold harder to your manner of riding, flaws and all, however wrong it may be you will have got good at your way of doing it.

If you back of a fair bit then you'll be prepared to try different ways of doing things, and it won't seem intimidating.

And remember the golden rule: Smooth is the key.

You can do things quickly and still be smooth, getting yourself good vision allows you to plan your actions in plenty of time and makes for a easy and economical manner of riding, which can be proper quick when you get good at it.

[Kinvig]

cheers for all the info here guys!

It's going to take a bit of practice & time to put it all into practice but Hey, Summers here - looks like my weekends will be spent finding some nice back roads around Surrey! :o)

Dirk

[Jelster]

Interestingly, when I had my naked, I did conciously countersteer (too much on one occasion :shock: and I had to counter-countersteer to pick it back up again). However, on my 'blade, even when I think about doing it, it "just happens", the bike goes round the bend.

I think with a naked you really can force the bike over, with a sports bike, a smooth entry and it all just works... Well it does for me anyway :smt102

.

[wheelnut]

Somebody said they didnt like Keith Codes way of writing. Go to a California Superbike UK school. They teach you in your own language,

They can prove that you countersteer, they can also prove there is no other way to turn a motorcycle, even if you think you can turn it by jumping on a footpeg, or throwing all your body parts to one side.

I have just returned from my 2nd Level 1 course in 3 years.

If you dont learn anything, then you are not willing to listen :D

[northwind]

They can prove that you countersteer, they can also prove there is no other way to turn a motorcycle, even if you think you can turn it by jumping on a footpeg, or throwing all your body parts to one side.


You see, this is just wrong. I've heard about the "no bull**** bike"... But I've ridden a converted-for-stunting Fazer thou that has lockable steering, and you can turn it. Not like a normal bike, and you're about a hair away from crashing all the time (you need to use the power to stop it from falling into turns, and to stand it back up, which is quite, quite mad) but it can be done.

Not that anyone does it on the street...

[21QUEST]

They can prove that you countersteer, they can also prove there is no other way to turn a motorcycle, even if you think you can turn it by jumping on a footpeg, or throwing all your body parts to one side.


You see, this is just wrong. I've heard about the "no bull**** bike"... But I've ridden a converted-for-stunting Fazer thou that has lockable steering, and you can turn it. Not like a normal bike, and you're about a hair away from crashing all the time (you need to use the power to stop it from falling into turns, and to stand it back up, which is quite, quite mad) but it can be done.

Not that anyone does it on the street...

Yep and a few years ago there was a guy who actually demonstarted the fact to Andy Abbort and his responce was something along the lines of 'yeah but ...'

Cheers
Ben

[K]

This was my take on counter steering posted a while ago:

When leaning into a corner shift your upper body slightly towards the inside handle bar - the transferrance of weight will automatically make you countersteer slightly.

It can help to actually drop your outside shoulder slightly too. This is probably a really bad description - but if taking a left-hander = keep your head upright, pull you right shoulder down towards your left hip slightly whilst shifting your left shoulder towards the inside of the corner.
Don't worry about conciously applying pressure on either of the bars - let your weight do it for you.

It's kind of a :riding: movement!

Once that feels more natural then you can actually think about applying pressure onto the inside bar - then pushing down on the inside peg too.

What is it - basically it's actively steering in opposition to the way you want to go! Yeah - go figure.

As for actually doing it - I'm with PH - natural instinct is best. It was years after I first started biking that I heard about the mythical conter steering - and so I tried it. Actually thought about what I was doing and actively tried to counter steer.

Even after a lot of practise I was still slower through corners and not really any smoother either. So I gave it up as a lost cause and went back to just riding by the natural feel of the bike - it was then that I actually examined how I rode and discovered that I was actively countersteering anyway - and was only screwing it up because I was attempting to stop and think about (what was to me) a natural movement.

Kinda like concentrating on your breathing - it suddenly isn't as easy as 'just letting it happen'. :roll:

And just like breathing, it's hard to describe and explain to people too. :?
:roll: :roll:

[Jelster]

The laws of physics say that if you ride a bike in a straight line then move the mass to the left, that bike will natually lean to the left, thus turn to the left. Counter steering just makes it happen more easily.


.

[skidmarx]

Not sure about that......If YOU just lean one way, the bike will lean the other to maintain the centre of gravity, and anyway the gyroscopic forces keeping the bike upright will overwhelm your attempts to lean the bike by transfering weight. You try leaning the bike without moving the handlebars! you go one way the bike goes the other!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Not sure about that......If YOU just lean one way, the bike will lean the other to maintain the centre of gravity, and anyway the gyroscopic forces keeping the bike upright will overwhelm your attempts to lean the bike by transfering weight. You try leaning the bike without moving the handlebars! you go one way the bike goes the other!

Rubbish. Try riding no handed - you can steer by moving your weight in the direction you want to go.

[wheelnut]

Not sure about that......If YOU just lean one way, the bike will lean the other to maintain the centre of gravity, and anyway the gyroscopic forces keeping the bike upright will overwhelm your attempts to lean the bike by transfering weight. You try leaning the bike without moving the handlebars! you go one way the bike goes the other!

Rubbish. Try riding no handed - you can steer by moving your weight in the direction you want to go.

But which way do the bars go when you ride no handed? It's still counter steering.

If you dont like the idea of pushing the left bar to go left, pull the right bar instead :P

[Viney]

So what you are saying is that when you steer into the corner, you push the bars into the direcetion that you are conering.

Soooo

Left hand bend, push on the right bar etc

If so, then that to me isnt counter steering. Counter to me, means the opposite. So if you where goinging into a left hand bend you would push on the left, hence my confusion.

Er, no, if you're going into a left hand bend you push on the left hand bar.

It's called counter steering because you're turning the wheel to point in the opposite direction to that which you're turning.

Ah, thats what i thought, thank you. So you are tyring to make the bike understeer.

[Viney]

The laws of physics say that if you ride a bike in a straight line then move the mass to the left, that bike will natually lean to the left, thus turn to the left. Counter steering just makes it happen more easily.


.

HOW?? Bike wants to fall to the left so you make it go straight on?? Im not saying that it doesnt work, and like you Jellyman, i suppose it jaust happens on the bike, but the theory just doesnt hold right in my head. Doing something opposite to what the bike is naturally trying to do just seems plain wierd.

[skidmarx]

I have tried riding without my hands on the handlebars and turning, it's very hard and leaning one way or the other doesn't really do much, I tend to go straight on.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The laws of physics say that if you ride a bike in a straight line then move the mass to the left, that bike will natually lean to the left, thus turn to the left. Counter steering just makes it happen more easily.


.

HOW?? Bike wants to fall to the left so you make it go straight on?? Im not saying that it doesnt work, and like you Jellyman, i suppose it jaust happens on the bike, but the theory just doesnt hold right in my head. Doing something opposite to what the bike is naturally trying to do just seems plain wierd.

That's the point though, counter-steering ISNT doing something opposite to what the bike is trying to do :)

[Peter Henry]

Well said Jordan. The very name would perhaps make one think otherwise though wouldn't it? :wink:

[lukemillar]

A lot of helpful info

Thanks chaps, this is very useful. :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Well said Jordan. The very name would perhaps make one think otherwise though wouldn't it? :wink:

No!

It's counter intuative, not counter to the laws of physics. Obviously, because it wouldnt work otherwise :wink:

[wheelnut]

I have done a search for an earlier post of mine. in fact about 3 years earlier, because I was one of the disbelieving ones :D

I wrote something like. " I have ridden bikes and scotters for 35 years and never countersteered" Luckily I discovered that I did and do before I crash by steering the wrong way :P

Unlike Politicians speeches, they are not recorded for ever on the org and cannot bite you in later life :D

[K]

You've got me thinking about the natural movements for the bike now.

If you're going really slowly (say under 15 mph) then the bike with follow the direction the front wheel is pointing. Steer towards the left = a left turn.
The bike is upright during this turn so the front wheel is comfortable twisting across the road surface on it's vertical axis.

At faster speeds, due to soem force of nature that I can't spell, the bike will naturally lean in towards the direction of the turn. Just like humans and animals do when running fast round a corner just to keep their balance.

Because of this leaning over, if you were to try and turn the front wheel into the curve it's not natural for the bike. Why? Because it's like you're trying to dig the leading edge of the wheel into the road surface.
Try it. Stand still, hold your bike at an angle then try to turn the front wheel toward the angle of lean. It fights against it. The bike naturally wants its wheel to run along a surface.

So, by actively pushing the wheel to the right at speed, the bike will want to maintain its comfortable state of wheels running along a surface and so lean to the left to make this happen. The more you push, the more it leans.
And because of the speed and that force I can't spell it adds up to you turning left.

Now this is the bit people forget. Once your bike has found its natural position on the line you want it to take, you stop pushing. The bike is comfortable, its wheels are running along the surface - if you continue to push you will only change the position of the front wheel again - so the bike leans over more to regain its natural position.
This tightens your line - so you shouldn't do it unless you need to; the corner tightens midbend or something.

So smooth but swift pressure on the inside bar at the start of the turn will set your bike on its line and then you just leave it there until you need to change your line.






Um...


... does that only make sense to me? :?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Because of this leaning over, if you were to try and turn the front wheel into the curve it's not natural for the bike. Why? Because it's like you're trying to dig the leading edge of the wheel into the road surface.
Try it. Stand still, hold your bike at an angle then try to turn the front wheel toward the angle of lean. It fights against it. The bike naturally wants its wheel to run along a surface.

Well, it is natural for a bike really - it'll make the bike stand up (then ultimately turn in the opposite direction, if the bars remain in the same place).

Now this is the bit people forget. Once your bike has found its natural position on the line you want it to take, you stop pushing. The bike is comfortable, its wheels are running along the surface - if you continue to push you will only change the position of the front wheel again - so the bike leans over more to regain its natural position.
This tightens your line - so you shouldn't do it unless you need to; the corner tightens midbend or something.

So smooth but swift pressure on the inside bar at the start of the turn will set your bike on its line and then you just leave it there until you need to change your line.

I'm not sure that's right. I think if you let go (ok, letting go probably isnt a good idea, lets just say take all weight/pressure off the bars) mid corner, the bike will start to stand up.

[wheelnut]

K is absolutely correct and its written in plain English :P

The bike will go in the direction of the wheel at low speeds, like 15 mph but above that is where things change.

All you are doing is telling the bike which way you want to go by countersteering, part of the CSS training demonstrates this. Once the bike is pointed in the right direction the rider does nothing more than opens the throttle, the bike does the rest, no strong grip on the bars is required, this will just fight the bike.

The most important thing about cornering is to relax your upper body, especially grip on the bars.

Try it with just 2 fingers on each bar, but you still need to roll on the throttle progressively.

Im not a riding dog but have suddenly understood what I have been doing for a long time

[Balky001]

K is absolutely correct and its written in plain English :P

The bike will go in the direction of the wheel at low speeds, like 15 mph but above that is where things change.

All you are doing is telling the bike which way you want to go by countersteering, part of the CSS training demonstrates this. Once the bike is pointed in the right direction the rider does nothing more than opens the throttle, the bike does the rest, no strong grip on the bars is required, this will just fight the bike.

The most important thing about cornering is to relax your upper body, especially grip on the bars.

Try it with just 2 fingers on each bar, but you still need to roll on the throttle progressively.

Im not a riding dog but have suddenly understood what I have been doing for a long time

I did the Level 1 CSS yesterday at Rockingham and one of the exercises was to put no pressure on the left bar at all (hand off was better) and only twist the throttle with the right once your in a turn, not even applying resting pressure to the bars let alone trying to control them - bit weird at full lean in a tight corner but surprised how much better it turns.

The course also covered Counter steering - we do all do it and to actively c/s will help turn the bike quicker but safer too. If you c/s slowly it means you start turning in too early and therefore your line will be compromised. Looking through the corner is the best way to get round it was don't look to early or you'll start turning in earlier without knowing.

[wheelnut]

K is absolutely correct and its written in plain English :P

The bike will go in the direction of the wheel at low speeds, like 15 mph but above that is where things change.

All you are doing is telling the bike which way you want to go by countersteering, part of the CSS training demonstrates this. Once the bike is pointed in the right direction the rider does nothing more than opens the throttle, the bike does the rest, no strong grip on the bars is required, this will just fight the bike.

The most important thing about cornering is to relax your upper body, especially grip on the bars.

Try it with just 2 fingers on each bar, but you still need to roll on the throttle progressively.

Im not a riding dog but have suddenly understood what I have been doing for a long time

I did the Level 1 CSS yesterday at Rockingham and one of the exercises was to put no pressure on the left bar at all (hand off was better) and only twist the throttle with the right once your in a turn, not even applying resting pressure to the bars let alone trying to control them - bit weird at full lean in a tight corner but surprised how much better it turns.

The course also covered Counter steering - we do all do it and to actively c/s will help turn the bike quicker but safer too. If you c/s slowly it means you start turning in too early and therefore your line will be compromised. Looking through the corner is the best way to get round it was don't look to early or you'll start turning in earlier without knowing.

Well fancy that, You being at Rockingham too. Mine was the SZ outside the classroom door

[K]

K is absolutely correct and its written in plain English :P



Er, that makes me sound all competant and knowledgeable n stuff...

... um...


... yeah, actually I subscribe to the 'Herbie Theory' regarding both countersteering and most other riding tips and techniques.

Your bike is actually a living thing that know perfectly well what it is doing - we are just along for the ride! This also means that if your bike, for some reason best known only to the machine in question, wishes to see what's on the other side of a hedge by the most direct route possible - it's going to. So it can't be your fault can it?!

There, that should set the record straight. :wink:

[Shinsei Jutsu]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/images/no_bs_bike_top_320.jpg

See it in action here (http://www.superbikeschool.com/video-clips/nobs.mov)

The Correct Brothers

It shouldn't be alarming to me that riders still question how to steer their motorcycles but it is. Apparently, even after 90 years when it was first observed by the Wright brothers some confusion remains on this subject . Yes, their first engineering attempts were as bicycle manufacturers; the very observant brothers determined that tandem (one wheel in front of the other) wheeled vehicles counter steer. That was and still is correct.

Sources Of Confusion

It is easy to see how confusion arises on the subject of steering for anyone of us who started their riding on pedal bikes. The steering is so light on a bicycle that riders have difficulty in separating the shift of their body mass (leaning into it) with the slight effort it takes to countersteer.

Further confusion arises from word of mouth advice on riding. I have even seen articles in usually credible national magazines extolling the virtues of body mass type steering. Body Steering as it is called. I have surveyed thousands of riders on this point. Most riders still believe that some of the steering is being done with their body mass or weight shift or pressure on the motorcycle's tank or pegs. Their estimates on how effective these are in getting the bike to turn range anywhere from 10% to 90%, some believe all of it is weight shift.

Swoopy Steering

If it weren't so grim, it's almost comical to watch a rider who does not understand how steering is accomplished. You can see them riding down the freeway trying and failing to change lanes by body steering and still appear cool while doing so. I have seen it dozens of times. It goes like this. The rider does a very swoopy upper body swing in the direction he wishes to go but for an agonizing (to me) moment, nothing happens. There is a perceivable lag between the upper body swoop and the bike's deflection from its original course. How terrifying it must be to find that the bike doesn't instantly respond.

Stiffen To Steer

Following that is a stiffening of the rider's upper body. Only then does the bike respond and change lanes. You see how this works? The rider's body is positioned off-center, from his swoop, in the intended direction of the lane change. The stiffening on the bars creates the countersteering action, because he has either pushed on the inside bar or stiffened and pulled on the outside one or a combination of both. This stiffening is actually a mild panic reaction. Many riders have simply learned to live with the lag and to think it is how their bike handles. That is false, a motorcycle responds almost instantly to countersteering.

Vague Technique

Riders have a number of ideas, which are vague and hard for them to describe, on just how their weight shifting accomplish this so called body-steering. "Throwing" their upper body mass to one side or the other (the swoop) is one. Some say they just push down on the inside peg. Some say they pull the bike over with the outside leg against the tank. Some say it is a combination of two or even all three of the above methods. Do they work?

I'll leave it up to the tech boys to figure out the WHY of motorcycle counter- steering. Their job should be to provide a simple demonstration of how it works. The fact is that countersteering is still being argued in the halls of learning with slide rules, Physics formulas and calculators. Many theories exist but no conclusive statement that I know of as to why has yet been reached. Argue on boys.

Clear The Issue

My job is to make riding simple and to clear up conflicting information that a rider may have on the subject of riding. Any confusion translates into reduced control, as in the lag from swoop to lane change, and confidence, as in the bike won't do what I want it to, when I want it to. Riders don't like the uncertainty and love the feeling of confidence. I decided to clarify this steering issue, body vs counter, very simple and very plain. I reasoned that anyone who could see how it works and experience the real steering procedure would have dramatically improved their chances of survival against the perils of 21st Century Earth street riding. Steering must be done and done quickly if a rider has any hope of confidently neutralizing those perils.

Expert Opinions

I was actually in a deep confusion on this subject of body-steering myself. Riders the caliber of Eric Bostrum have told me that they do it to some degree, to help steer. Freddie Spencer has made a statement to that effect and of course Reg Pridmore has made it the banner for his CLASS schools for 15 years. Jason's STAR school has been written up as teaching body steering as well.

With great to good credentials like that it should be so, and even I was a little shaken in my certainty. Maybe there was something in it after all. I hate to miss anything.

The Experiments

For my part, experimenting with pressure on the pegs, the tank, adjusting my body mass and combinations of all three on the bike resulted in nothing I would consider steering. In other words, something that could be used in an emergency maneuver or to aggressively flick the bike into a corner or through a set of esses.

Eventually I arrived at a potential solution to my questions that would eliminate my opinions and/or misunderstanding on the subject.

The Solution

Make a bike that has two sets of bars. One set as normal, the other set would be solid mounted to the frame so they were not connected to and did not rotate the forks. This, as my theory went, would answer the question. And it does.

The Machine

Taking one of our Kawasaki ZX 6Rs and solid mounting a set of bars 8" above the standard ones would positively isolate the various body shifting from the countersteering. If body-steering had any effect it would be simple to show it. I created a bike with that setup. One necessary detail was to mount an additional throttle on the upper, solid mounted, bars so the bike's stability could be maintained as the user rode down the road. So we wound up with two sets of handlebars and two operating throttles on the bike.

Dirty Exceptions

Before I go any further I want to address off-road motorcycles. An off-road motorcycle will easily steer by pressing down on the inside peg, and in conjunction with shifting the upper body mass, will go over pretty easily . Still not what I would call good control but it can be done fairly efficiently.

Again, I am not a true tech guy but it occurs to me that the small contact patch on ****bies or dual sport tires and dirt bike steering geometry, which is not intended to provide an enormous amount of stability at speed, contribute to the reasons why steering results from weight shifts to the degree it does on a dirt bike.
No B.S.

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one--in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective.

We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.

You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.

Dangerous Misconceptions

Now if you want to look a little further into this, what you will see is this; riders who still labor under the misconception that they body-steer are devoting themselves in a system that can do a great deal of actual harm. Firstly, it is seriously misguided to add an additional series of actions to the steering process. When it is quick, critical steering that is needed to avoid something, that lag I have observed so many times in street riders, could cost you your hide.

Adding 2/10ths to 5/10ths of a second, or more, to the steering procedure at 60 mph means that you have just gone another 18 to 44 feet, or more, down the road before you started to avoid that muffler lying in your path. Kids, don't try this at home.

The way things are going there will be warning labels on motorcycles in the not too distant future.

WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COUNTERSTEERING DO NOT RIDE. SEEK THE HELP OF A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL Riding Coach.

Bull Steering

Another recognizable error, resulting in excess effort used to steer the motorcycle, is the attempt to turn the bike by bulldogging the bars. An interesting combination of pulling up on one and pushing down on the other rodeo style, like bull wrestling. No, repeat No, steering results from this. None, zero, nadda, niente. Riders who think they can twist the bike into a turn in this fashion simply have another false idea and get tired. The Bottom Line

Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S.

[skidmarx]

Mmmmmmmm..........thought so! Interesting article. Sure somebody will be along to 'rubbish' it all, which is a shame really....

[wheelnut]

Timeline. Details
1974 Keith Code Becomes a typical California street squid canyon racer.
1974-75 Does four club races, does well, wins one or two and in 1975 is a top finisher.
1975 Gets a ride with Yoshimura and wins some club events
1976 Starts writing down his research on riding techniques. Begins the "Keith Code Rider Improvement Program" for club level racers. Gets astonishing results. Student lap times improve an average of 7 seconds a lap. Press dubs him The Guru of Roadracing.
1976 Gets to winners circle in his first ever Superbike race at Laguna Seca. Keith also begins research on visual skills. Defines reference points and other key visual skills.
1977 Organizes the new-rider training for the AFM racing club and runs it.Does the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Riding Coach course in Sacramento, CA. Keith also starts training new riders at MSF courses and for dealerships.
1977-78 Begins publicly sharing his discoveries by holding lectures for racers on riding technique.
1977-78 Begins to apply training techniques to self and wins 11 out of 12 California events in GP and other classes.
1977-79 Active member, board of directors, AFM race club.
1979 Retires from Superbike racing.
1979 Keith hooks up with Richard Lovell and forms the California Superbike School. Richard came to America with the idea of starting a track school from his experience at Brands Hatch where he worked for the track's own school. On calling around to magazines, Keith's name was given to him as the guy who trained riders. The two established and ran the schools together until Richard went on to family business in Wisconsin in 1987.
1980 Starts the first high performance school, The California Superbike School
1981 Contracts with Kawasaki ! Motors Corp. to train dirtracker Wayne Rainey ! in roadracing techniques. The rest is history.
1982 Takes the Superbike School nationwide.
1982 Writes the instant best seller, A Twist of the Wrist book. Still selling in quantity worldwide.
1982 Superbike champion Eddie Lawson ! agrees to write his notes and comments in Keith's first book after attending Superbike School sessions.
1982 Keith asks and Eddie Lawson helps instruct at Superbike School sessions.
1982 Develops the no-brakes rider training format, used by many.
1983 Becomes first teacher to break riding into specific drills.
1983 Coaches Steve Wise for Honda race team. Steve was fearless but crashed a lot. He made it into the winners circle 11 out of the next 13 Superbike and Formula 1 races with Keith as his coach.
1984 Works with Superbike champion Wes Cooley for Kawasaki. Team Muzzy/Kawasaki staff member, Sparky Edmondson said. "What did you do to him, I've never seen anything like that before!" after Keith brought him from a
string of distant 7th place type finishes to winners' circle after coaching him for only one race!

1984 Develops the panic-stop training bike.
1984 Works with national champion dirtracker Ricky Graham to start his roadracing career for Honda.
1984 First Twist book translated into Japanese.
1984 First Twist book translated into German. Becomes immediate best seller.
1984 Works with national champion dirtracker Bubba Shobert to start his roadracing career for Honda. Bubba went on to win the Superbike championship.
1984 Starts training dirtracker Doug Chandler in roadracing. Doug wins 3Superbike Championships.
1984 Develops and implements first ever high perf. step-by-step rider training format.
1984 Begins training Donnie Greene who goes on to win 3 National Championships after Keith's coaching.
1985 Holds seminars for racers to test techniques he writes about in The Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles book. Riders get immediate results. Publishes the book.
1985 Wayne Rainey likes the material and agrees to write notes for the book.
1986 The Soft Science of Roadracing is published and is still the only workbook for racers. Daytona Winner Dave Sadowski later says, "I don't need you as a coach anymore, I have the book with all the answers!"
1986 Writes, produces and technically directs the world's first rider training video. Still number 1 in the world after 16 years.
1986 Soft Science of Roadracing book translated into Japanese.
1987 Develops on-track style instruction with immediate handsignal feedback.
1987 Develops on-bike video training.
1988 Twist video is dubbed in Japanese.
1989 Works with Thomas Stevens. Later becomes Superbike Champion.
1989 Coaches David Sadowski. Goes on to win Daytona and other races.
1989 Coaches Fred Merkel. Goes on to win world Superbike title.
1989 Addresses Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) on riding technology.
1990 Coaches Dale Quarterly. Goes on to win national championship and quitscrashing.
1990 Student Doug Chandler wins his first Superbike race, acknowledges Keith's coaching.
1990 Twist video translated into Spanish.
1990 Twist video translated into German.
1990 Produces the first ever full season of roadracing on TV in America.
1990 Resumes coaching of Donnie Greene. Wins another National 250cc title.
1990 Holds first schools in Australia.
1991 Holds first schools in Guatemala.
1991 Starts coaching Scott Russell. Russell begins Superbike career and publicly acknowledges Keith's help. Wins USA and World Superbike Championships.
1991 Voted Motorcyclist Magazine's, Motorcyclist of the Year, for his students and other rider training accomplishments of the past decade.
1991 Coaches Jake Zemke for a season. Jake later becomes national podium regular.
1991 Coaches Mike Smith. Mike goes on to win National Formula USA title.
1992 Coaches factory rider Jamie James.
1992 Chuck Graves becomes Code student. Wins Formula USA title.
1992 At age 48 returns to 250 racing to research A Twist of the Wrist, Volume II. Does pretty well for an old fart. Winners circle at club events, runs in top 10 at some national events.
1992 Discovers quick turn riding technology.
1992 Writes Twist Volume II. Still number one book on high performance riding today.
1992 Discovers pivot-steering technique.
1992 Is honored by Motorcycle Safety Foundation for promoting rider safety.
1993 Discovers hook-turn body positioning technique.
1993 Writes the world's first researched understanding of Throttle Control.
1993 Dissects and presents understandable data on rider input and its effects on handling.
1993 Continues 250 GP racing for grins and giggles.
1993 Writes columns for Sportrider and Motorcycle Consumer News.
1993 Twist, Volume II translated into German. Becomes German bestseller.
1994 Gets into bicycles and invents a corrective device for rider's shoes, patented.
1994 Writes A Gear Higher book on bicycles featuring team Yetti rider Marla Strebb.
1995 Returns to Australia to do schools, by popular demand.
1995 Starts Australian franchise of Superbike School.
1995 Completely restructures Superbike School training format into 4 levels.
1996 Develops in depth training courses for riding riding coaches.
1996 Does 125 GP bike schools with Moto Liberty to test new training techniques.
1996 Does Harley-only schools to prove new training format works with any rider.
1996 Ben Bostrom comes to school and then works with Keith.
1996 Eric Bostrom comes to school and consults with Keith on riding.
1996 Works with Roland Sands. Sands immediately quits crashing (one to three times per race) and goes on to win national title.
1997 Develops and releases the Steering Drill: trains thousands of riders worldwide.
1997 California Superbike Schools start in the UK. Schools rocket to number one in nation.
1997 Coaches Sean Higby. Higby becomes top twins competitor.
1997 New visual drills added to the schools already successful ones.
1997 Invents, patents and implements the Lean & Slide bike.
1998 Coaches Tommy Hayden back to winners circle from injuries and bad finishes.
1998 Coaches John Kocinski. Wins World title next season.
1998 Creates the No BS bike to sort out countersteering and body steering.
1999 Lean & Slide bike sales overseas to foreign training centers.
1999 Australian branch expands into Malaysia.
2000 Consults with Chuck Sorensen. Chuck wins national 250 title again and again.
2000 Develops corner-attack technology and adds it to school curriculum.
2000 Develops Knee-to-knee, quick flick stability techniques and adds it to school drills.
2000 UK school wins top road school award at prestigious Motorcycle News annual awards.
2001 Race And Competition Experience curriculum developed.
2001 Employs radar at the R.A.C.E. schools for immediate feedback on technique.
2001 Schools expand to France and Spain.
2001 Invents corrective Body Alignment Device for rider training at schools.
2002 Both Twist books become audio books on CD.
2002 Completes and introduces his wheelie-trainer device.
2002 Schools expand to Greece.
2002 Australian branch expands to the Philippines.
2002 Norwegian DMV adopts Code technique-oriented approach to rider training.
2002 Student count reaches 100,000 riders trained at Superbike Schools worldwide.
2003 Twist, Volume 1 interactive CD version released.
2003 Keith's Slide Bike device becomes standard training for Police, Fire and Civil Defense officials in Singapore.
2003 The school adds Sweden and Ireland to its tour schedule.
2003 Superbike School rider's forum is launched at http://www.superbikeschool.com/bbs
2004 School adds South Africa to its tour schedule.
2005 UK school coaches Thomas Luthi. Wins 125cc World Championship.
2005 Coaches Leon Camier. Becomes British Supersport Champ.

I just thought maybe no one had heard of him :P

[Stu]

I don't know who to credit, but I read this thread yesterday and Conciously counter steered all the way home.
Fantastic, Thanks

[Stu]

I just thought maybe no one had heard of him :P

Sounds impressive, but who is Keith Code? is he Shinsei Jutsu or is who Shinsei was plagiarising?

[Shinsei Jutsu]

I am no one.

I lifted that stuff from another forum, had no idea where it came from, just guessed it came from where the video clip was from. If there is any problem with it then I'm sure admin will remove it.

As I said I am no one.

[Jelster]

HOW?? Bike wants to fall to the left so you make it go straight on?? Im not saying that it doesnt work, and like you Jellyman, i suppose it jaust happens on the bike, but the theory just doesnt hold right in my head. Doing something opposite to what the bike is naturally trying to do just seems plain wierd.

Seems weird I know, but the physics of it actually work. It's as if you are making the front wheel the "fulcrum" for the bike to pivot, and steering to the right when actually want to go right just reduces the size of the fulcrum, allowing the bike to fall in more qucikly.

Here's an exercise I did to get the hang of it.

Ride down a straight road (with no traffic) along the centre line. Gently "jab" the right bar away from you and the bike immeadiately turns to the left and then back upright.

Do the same with the left bar and it dips to the right.

To really get a good idea of it, ride a naked where you get a more intense feeling of conciously turning the bars the other way. It's scary when you first do it, but great fun...

.

[21QUEST]

Poor guys head must be done in by now :P

I would go with peeps who say use the 'KISS' principle for the moment.

Cheers
Ben

[northwind]

Mmmmmmmm..........thought so! Interesting article. Sure somebody will be along to 'rubbish' it all, which is a shame really....

Ah, that's not what he said in the PB article I saw... He maintained it's imposible to turn at all. I don't think the rider's experience counts for a thing, since you just don't ride it at all like a normal bike. Sounds like the riding coach had the right idea, probably the only reason I could do it at all was because I'd been shown exactly how... Marc Gillespie could surprise Keith Code I think :) But he'd still crash if he tried to ride it on the road. (incidentally, what you do is you position your weight off the bike, then pull the bike onto you, if you try and do it normally it either straightens straight back up, or you fall off. Kevin Carmichael fell off, apparently :) )

The No-Bull**** Bike makes its point- everybody countersteers, if they ride at speed. I just don't like the way he black-and-whites things. The full article makes the point just as well without resorting to exaggeration. There's other things- like

"Another recognizable error, resulting in excess effort used to steer the motorcycle, is the attempt to turn the bike by bulldogging the bars. An interesting combination of pulling up on one and pushing down on the other rodeo style, like bull wrestling. No, repeat No, steering results from this. None, zero, nadda, niente. Riders who think they can twist the bike into a turn in this fashion simply have another false idea and get tired. The Bottom Line"

Now, that's true, but the reason people think it works is because when you push down on the bottom bar, you also tend to push it forward- that's how I used to rationalise countersteering. If you say bluntly "You are wrong, that doesn't work", but people go away and do it and it seems to, you don't get your message across. Code expects people to just accept his statements- and even though he's right, that's not too clever. If people are wrong, you explain why, you don't just chuck it in their face and expect them to catch it.

[Balky001]

Ride down a straight road (with no traffic) along the centre line. Gently "jab" the right bar away from you and the bike immeadiately turns to the left and then back upright.

.

Jelster, if you push the right bar forward, it will lean to the right. Are you saying that although you are leaning to the right the bike goes left? :shock:

I think the best examples are speedway riders, full lock right to go left. Once you visualise that (without the sliding!) counter steering makes more sense

[skidmarx]

I agree that by polarising the discussion into 'right and wrong' is often not all that helpful, and any good instructor/educator would need to consider the pupils experiences and where there coming from before telling them what to do. But all I meant was that shifting weight around ON ITS OWN is of limited use on a runway let alone a road, and that everybody countersteers to turn. The problem here is that though we all do it, some people don't seem to be aware of it. C'steering seems to be a method of rapidly changing directions when you've overcooked a corner, or need to avoid something in your path. That's when some consciously C'steer out of the way etc. But if you are aware of doing it even for those gentle sweeps around corners then you feel far more in control, don't grip too hard, get less stressed, and you can control your progress with more finesse.
I don't think that the word 'rubbish' is helpful or warranted when applied to others posts.

[northwind]

I don't think that the word 'rubbish' is helpful or warranted when applied to others posts.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. You suck, Flaming Squirrel :)

[northwind]

I think the best examples are speedway riders, full lock right to go left. Once you visualise that (without the sliding!) counter steering makes more sense

Do you ride on the road like a speedway rider? :)

[Balky001]

I think the best examples are speedway riders, full lock right to go left. Once you visualise that (without the sliding!) counter steering makes more sense

Do you ride on the road like a speedway rider? :)

No, they don't get their knees down unless they have come off! 8) :wink:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I don't think that the word 'rubbish' is helpful or warranted when applied to others posts.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. You suck, Flaming Squirrel :)

Yeah that's true, sorry, my bad :oops:

[K]

What worries me over the confusion of countersteering in some riders - espescially new riders - is that without a coherant explaination of the differences in steering a bike above and below about 15 mph surely the potenial for highspeed highsides is increased.

Which, let's face it, is never a good thing.

Yet again, education at early stages of training is the key - but in the interests of simplicity, economy, whatever, this isn't done - and I wonder how many accidents it could have prevented or lessened the impact of.

Typical scenario - travelling down a clear road and something (be it hidden junction, wayward child, stupidity etc) requires a rapid change of direction for the bike. The first thing a hell of a lot of riders do (if not grabbing a handful of brake) is to yank the handle bars in the direction they want to go to avoid collision.
At low speeds this will work - medium and perhaps you'll fishtail it to a standstill with you heart in your mouth - higher = chances are the front wheel is going to dig in and you have, I believe, a highside.

Perhaps better early training, clearer training and more simple clarification on the mysteries of actively countersteering will help override that panic response to turn the bars the 'right' way - leading to an conditioned reflex to turn them the 'wrong' way for a faster, cleaner safer aversion technique.

Disabuse the myths and start treating it as simply how you ride a motorbike. No different to how you twist the throttle or pull in the clutch. It's a simple mechanism of riding.

Just like turning into a skid is a simple mechanism of driving.



Or maybe I'm just feeling a philosophically crappy today! Who knows? :?

[wheelnut]

I suppose it comes back to basics. Should a CBT instructor explain counter steering? It is a given that we all do it. So how do we get around those first teetering moments around the cones? :P

Or in the afternoon when you are let loose to play with the cars and manhole covers. No one shows you, No one explains how to turn the motorcycle :shock:

[Jelster]

Ride down a straight road (with no traffic) along the centre line. Gently "jab" the right bar away from you and the bike immeadiately turns to the left and then back upright.

.

Jelster, if you push the right bar forward, it will lean to the right. Are you saying that although you are leaning to the right the bike goes left? :shock:

Ah ha, you spotted the error.... You can see I was busy today can't you....

It should read.....


Ride down a straight road (with no traffic) along the centre line. Gently "jab" the right bar away from you and the bike immeadiately turns to the right and then back upright.

Well spotted, go to the top of the class.......

But it is a good excercise for anyone who has never "conciously" counter steered before....

.

[Peter Henry]

Jelster thank heavens you popped back in here. I could not believe what you had first written. :shock: :wink:

[Stu]

I think it should be considered for the CBT, because I managed to learn it just from reading this thread.

[21QUEST]

I think it should be considered for the CBT, because I managed to learn it just from reading this thread.

I'll have to disagree. It has been pointed out that you do it anyway so no point in over complicating things at that point.

Cheers
Ben

[Balky001]

I think it should be considered for the CBT, because I managed to learn it just from reading this thread.

I'll have to disagree. It has been pointed out that you do it anyway so no point in over complicating things at that point.

Cheers
Ben

Maybe not CBT, but our DAS instructor (who also did our CBT) was pretty thorough on the theory of counter steering. He also let us filter too so he was a pretty cool guy all together :riding:

[muffles]

dunno if the original poster is still watching :D but i wanted to learn to corner better too, as my riding is all commuting to work and that means straight lines only :?

i went out with a group of guys i know for a ride round some coutnry roads, and i've done a bit more twisty riding since, and my approach was to segregate the things i needed to learn into bits and only move onto the next once i'd incorporated the previous bit into my natural riding.

i started by sorting out my lines - moving on the road to see the furthest round the corner, and moving in as i go through it. after that i started to lean and try to move my body about a bit - and this is where i am now - still trying to incorporate that moving my body into my natural riding. after that i'm going to try actively countersteering.

[Sid Squid]

'Countersteering*' = How motorbikes are steered. End of.

It is possible to provoke a change in direction of some unspecified and inaccurate sort by weighting one side or the other, but this isn't steering, and is an irrelevance that confuses and complicates.
The 'prove it to yourself' excercises that have been stated above are a good way of getting straight in your head what's happening, so I'd suggest that anyone not entirely sure what's being discussed go try them.**
Also know this; When you're at lean and established in a turn, the steering goes back to straight, the turning force is provided by the profile of the tyres, which when upright could be considered short cylinders but when at lean are in essence two cones, cones roll in circles = you turn when leant. In a constant turn you aren't doing any steering, and shouldn't be trying to either***, you get out of the turn not by stopping steering, but by steering the other way - you 'countersteer' yourself back upright again. The speedway example is not valid, that's being got through the turn in an entirely different way, that's not how it works unless sliding the back tyre significantly, and even then the steering inputs the rider is making mid turn are only those needed to change the turn, not make the turn continue.

Now the big question: Why consciously 'countersteer'? How will this benefit me?

Conscious 'countersteering' is a good thing to be familiar with, when you understand it it will add a little margin of safety to your riding, and should you decide, a dab of speed too.
How? Very simple, if you take your time over steering your bike, as you will unless you are deliberately using the steering quickly, you spend more time off the vertical, this means that any given turn will be longer, and the straight bits shorter. When you have decided to negotiate a given turn you will also have decided, whether conciously or not, on a lean angle necessary to make the turn, once that decision has been made why take any longer than is absolutely necessary to get from upright to that lean angle? As you will have noticed if you've tried the excercises for yourself, the speed at which the bike takes up a lean when you conciously make an effort to turn the 'bars quickly is very high, (this is caused by gyroscopic precession).
So, to use some easy figures, if instead of taking a second or so to get to the chosen angle you only take a half of a second, at 30mph (44fps), you will have been upright for 22 feet more, remember; lean compromises your ability to do everyting else, you can't use the power or the brakes to any great extent when leant, and the more you lean the more this is so. Now 30 mph and 22 feet don't sound like much, but if you've now the ability to make your turns in a shorter space on the road, the road just got bigger - the possibilities for positioning your bike more advantageously and maximise your forward view are increased. If your intention is to go quicker you'll now be on the throttle for another 22 feet, you'll be using the brakes 22 feet later, and when you're done with turning you'll be able to bring the bike back upright and use the throttle earlier too. None of this adds any more turning force, it doesn't make any difference to the turn that you make, all that's changed is instead of taking time in getting your lean you did it quickly.


* I don't like this word. I think it's the wrong word. You're not steering the wrong way, you're steering the way that you need to in order to go where you want, perhaps counter-intuitive steering is what it should be called, but I'll continue to use the word for the sake of simplicty.
** Find somewhere suitable, this will involve space, lots of it, and equally importantly won't involve anyone or anything else in said space.
Ride along at about 30-40 mph, relax your grip on the 'bars such that any less grip and the throttle would close, gently press on the left handlebar - you're turning the steering to the right - the bike leans and turns to the left, note the pressure required to make a significant and speedy lean and turn. Try it again pressing the right 'bar for completeness.
*** In a turn you should be as relaxed as is possible, the way many people describe this is to do 'the funky chicken' mid turn, that is waggle your elbows up and down, if you can't do this you're still steering whether by trying to turn the bars or simply by your rigid arms making unconscious steering inputs. As you are undoubtedly aware motorbikes steer themselves quite a bit, this is best demonstrated by the way the steering straightens itself when you let go of the 'bars, and is caused by the geometry of the wheel/forks/frame, particularly the trail, (but this is another story entirely, so no more now), the effect of this is that your motorbike can steer more quickly than you can and it can certainly do it more accurately - let it.

[K]

... the effect of this is that your motorbike can steer more quickly than you can and it can certainly do it more accurately - let it.

See, I told you... 'Herbie Theory' = the bikes, they are alive! :twisted:

[wheelnut]

Just to keep pushing the CSS. This months PB (August) has a write up on it, 5 journos all went on it and sampled the lower levels and all gave it the thumbs up with scores from 10/10 to 8/10

[Sid Squid]

Read the above - much cheaper.

[K]

I think it should be considered for the CBT, because I managed to learn it just from reading this thread.

I'll have to disagree. It has been pointed out that you do it anyway so no point in over complicating things at that point.

Cheers
Ben

Yes people do it anyway - but they need to be made aware of what they're doing, why they are doing it and its results when used more effectively.

There are a lot of myths, misleading information and just plain falsehoods that have turned the subject into some long debated, oft disbelieved, action. WHen it is simply, as Sid says - how you turn a bike, end of story.

Education has got to be key in changing attitudes and perhaps increasing rider control and thereby, safety. I'm not talking long drawn out training in active coutersteering at the most basic level (though it would be nice), but clear explaination and education ahould be included as standard in my opinion.

[21QUEST]

I think it should be considered for the CBT, because I managed to learn it just from reading this thread.

I'll have to disagree. It has been pointed out that you do it anyway so no point in over complicating things at that point.

Cheers
Ben

Yes people do it anyway - but they need to be made aware of what they're doing, why they are doing it and its results when used more effectively.

There are a lot of myths, misleading information and just plain falsehoods that have turned the subject into some long debated, oft disbelieved, action. WHen it is simply, as Sid says - how you turn a bike, end of story.

Education has got to be key in changing attitudes and perhaps increasing rider control and thereby, safety. I'm not talking long drawn out training in active coutersteering at the most basic level (though it would be nice), but clear explaination and education ahould be included as standard in my opinion.

I'm totally in agreement with you that we should be taught to actively counter-steer. The bit I'm woried about question is 'at what point' and maybe 'how deep'

What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for leaner/new riders to be overwhelmed by the whole thing. That may be counter productive to what we may be trying to achieve :? .

Some people have plenty to think about trying to figure out the controls :) and you want to explain counter steering to them. To me that would make them more of a danger to themselves at the very least.
I'm only saying that we need to be carefully.

Take me for an example , never been on a bike. Infact I used to be scared of bike when I was liitle lad(don't ask) but my CBT instructor couldn't believe I had never been on a bike. Everything came quite easy with me and infact had to tell me to speed up a litle on the slow control.

Two other lads. One would know his **** from his elbow(no offence to him) while the other pretended to know all there was to know about bikes(apparently had a KR1-S ?) but in reality he knew sweet FA. He was easily confused and couldn't grasp the easiest of things.

There was no doubt in my mind what the result of my test would be :wink: but we have to cater for whole lot of different people. Once the head is gone then nothing else matters.


Reminds me that I still have found the time to take some extra training. I feel I have reached a plateau ith my riding :( .

Cheers
Ben

[Stu]

The reason I would vote for 'at the CBT' is because that could be the end of all training for some people who want to ride at more than 15mph.
I passed my DAS test without having received any training/explanation on counterstreering until this thread.
I think a simple explanation of - below 15mph you steer left to turn left, above 15 you put a bit of pressure on the left bar away from you to start leaning to the left and therefore turn left. This would help a lot of people who are desperately try to shift their weight etc to start/stop the lean which results in countersteering anyway but without realising it.