View Full Version : GSXR600 brake adaptor plates - first impressions
I have been very disappointed in the front brakes that Suzuki decided to put on the SV650. My solution was to buy a set of K2 GSXR600 brakes and the adaptor plates from highspeedassault. I put them on this weekend, and even though I probably need to bleed the brakes again to get rid of the last bit of air, the first impressions are positive. Multiple stops in quick succession from high speeds no longer cause any fade, the deceleration is completely linear, and I can use two fingers instead of four on the lever. The powder coated adaptor plates are very well made and fit perfectly.
Now for the critisism. The kit comes with stainless steel cap head bolts. I am not convinced that they are up to the job in the same way as the original steel bolts are, and I will be looking to replace them sooner rather than later. Stainless steel is good for corrosion resistance, but not so good when it comes to high heat and shearing loads.
The original fears I had about the brakes being over-sensitive with this mod have proven to be not warranted at all.
You might find that the brakes will overwhelm the suspension under very hard braking!!!!
Billy, that was another of my concerns, but it didn't turn out that way at all. Keep in mind that with the original brakes you can do stoppies already, and in fact someone I know completely flipped their bike so that it landed on the pillion grab handle - using the original brakes, so it is not the outright power that has changed - it is the complete fade resistance, and improved feel. Also I have racetech springs/cartridge emulators/20w oil, so no probs there.
Just a thought I'm going the SRAD 750 front end conversion to give me a better set up :thumbsup:
Billy, that is a good way to go for sure, but I chose not to because even the SRAD front end is going to need aftermarket springs and gold valves to be better than my current set up.
Oh, I forgot to mention that the plates do not interfere with the speedo drive on my K5, and that if you have the OEM brake lines then they will not reach on the right hand side with the brake line retaining bracket in its original place. I cable tied it in place for the moment to stop them rubbing on the fender.
northwind
03-07-06, 09:24 AM
Billy, that is a good way to go for sure, but I chose not to because even the SRAD front end is going to need aftermarket springs and gold valves to be better than my current set up.
If you're big enough, then yep, you'd need new springs. But the Showa cartridges as standard are better than cartridge emulators. A heavy person might be out of the adjustment ranges though.
lukemillar
03-07-06, 09:54 AM
If you can - post a couple of pics! :D
Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 07:47 AM
I take it this means the SV master cylinder is ok to use, or did you replace that too?
Flamin_Squirrel, AFAIK they are the same as the gixxer master cylinder. Regardless, it certainly doesn't seem defficient in any way.
I've only ever found the need to use two fingers on the front brake lever, and while they could obviously be better, honestly don't think the SV's brakes are as bad as everyone makes out.
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Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 08:40 AM
I've only ever found the need to use two fingers on the front brake lever, and while they could obviously be better, honestly don't think the SV's brakes are as bad as everyone makes out.
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No, they really are :lol:
Saying that, fixing the front end with emulators, springs and oil allows the brakes to work much better.
Have you thought about going down the emulator route Greg?
I've thought about it, but the bank balance just doesn't allow it. Still, I'm trying to slow down as it is :lol: .
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Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 09:13 AM
I've thought about it, but the bank balance just doesn't allow it. Still, I'm trying to slow down as it is :lol: .
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Emulators will help you slow down :lol:
Jonboy, my answer to that is that they are and they aren't! When everything goes to plan I don't even touch my front brakes. The SV has such strong engine braking that only a dab of rear brake is needed when coming to a complete stop.
So, what am I doing any of this for? Well, I had a situation where three cars pulled out on me when I was doing 100mph plus in quick sucession. The third time I went to stop the brakes had faded so badly I almost ran into the car. Another time an R1 I was following at 120 decided that they had seen a non existent speed trap - and shot backward at such a rapid pace that I only missed them by inches. Now you could very rightly say that I should not be going so fast or be out there playing amongst proper bikes, but that is what I do, and I want to make sure that I live through it!
Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 09:25 AM
Jonboy, my answer to that is that they are and they aren't! When everything goes to plan I don't even touch my front brakes. The SV has such strong engine braking that only a dab of rear brake is needed when coming to a complete stop.
So, what am I doing any of this for? Well, I had a situation where three cars pulled out on me when I was doing 100mph plus in quick sucession. The third time I went to stop the brakes had faded so badly I almost ran into the car. Another time an R1 I was following at 120 decided that they had seen a non existent speed trap - and shot backward at such a rapid pace that I only missed them by inches. Now you could very rightly say that I should not be going so fast or be out there playing amongst proper bikes, but that is what I do, and I want to make sure that I live through it!
Good brakes won't compensate for crap observational skills.
So....you don't use the front brake but you don't like it? I find someone who says that they don't use a front brake scary. I would hate to be anywhere near you on the road.
I never had a problem with the brakes on the SV personally, yes they aren't absolutely amazing but they do the job if you use them of course.
Flamin_squirrel, do not read extra into what I have said. In the situations I have mentioned there was ample room *if* the brakes had worked correctly as they do on other bikes. Last night another R1 decided to stop for no good reason (what is it with these R1 riders :) ), and it posed no problem at all as I could stop quicker than they could.
Kate, if I see a red light coming up, I don't fly up to it and do a stoppie at the last moment (ok, maybe I do that sometimes), but rather I just let the bike slow down with engine braking. If I am on a twisty country road I tend to roll-on and roll-off of the throttle to make good progress as it is smooth and fast. Why, what do you do?
Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 09:59 AM
Flamin_squirrel, do not read extra into what I have said. In the situations I have mentioned there was ample room *if* the brakes had worked correctly as they do on other bikes. Last night another R1 decided to stop for no good reason (what is it with these R1 riders :) ), and it posed no problem at all as I could stop quicker than they could.
Oh so it's the bikes fault you were riding beyond it limitations?
Why, what do you do?
Funnily enough I use the brakes, the official line is 70/30 front/back. I don't do stoppies but nor do I slow down unexpectidly far from the lights giving the car drivers behind a nasty surprise or irritating them.
Flamin_squirrel, but of course! :lol:
Kate, once tyre and brake technology moved to the point where bikes could do stoppies at almost any speed, the 70/30 rule became obsolete and is now the 100/0 rule under emergency or race braking. There are those that advocate that braking in the least distance is obtained by first a quick dab to rear brake to make the bike squat, followed by large controlled squeeze of the front brake whilst releasing the back brake, and when the bike has almost reached a complete stop to slightly release the front brake and add some rear brake again. All sounds good in theory, but not so easy to follow when it is needed most.
I tad of rear brake helps stabilise the bike under braking, especial on a twin where the rear wheel may still be tring to push the bike forwards and possably lead to it wanting to overtake the front. In an emergency it better to concentrace on the front though.
Kate, once tyre and brake technology moved to the point where bikes could do stoppies at almost any speed, the 70/30 rule became obsolete and is now the 100/0 rule under emergency or race braking.
Perhaps you should explain this to all instructors, examiners and advanced riders? And also get the test changed? But I'm sure you know best.
Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 11:02 AM
Kate, once tyre and brake technology moved to the point where bikes could do stoppies at almost any speed, the 70/30 rule became obsolete and is now the 100/0 rule under emergency or race braking. There are those that advocate that braking in the least distance is obtained by first a quick dab to rear brake to make the bike squat, followed by large controlled squeeze of the front brake whilst releasing the back brake, and when the bike has almost reached a complete stop to slightly release the front brake and add some rear brake again. All sounds good in theory, but not so easy to follow when it is needed most.
I suggest against patronising people when you lack the most basic observational skills required to ride safely.
Kate, this isn't my own personal theory, it was my riding instructor that explained this to me, and demonstrated it to perfection on a section of race track.
fizzwheel
04-07-06, 11:08 AM
demonstrated it to perfection on a section of race track.
I'm sure he did. However I might humbly suggest that what works well on a race track might not always be the best technique for road riding.
fizzwheel, just to clarify, it was to do with road riding, on standard road bikes - but for obvious reasons it is not the best idea to demonstrate/practice emergency braking on your nearest A road.
fizzwheel
04-07-06, 11:16 AM
fizzwheel, just to clarify, it was to do with road riding, on standard road bikes - but for obvious reasons it is not the best idea to demonstrate/practice emergency braking on your nearest A road.
Agreed.
I tend to use the back brake just as I'm about to stop for the last bit of braking I find it helps stabilise the bike. Otherwise I dont tend to use it at all.
I think the trouble with the standard SV brakes is that the power is there, but there isnt IMHO alot of feel from the lever.
Now I honestly don't wish this to appear patronizing but if you're constantly having these close calls and riding the bike on the very edge then maybe you need to slow down a little and re-appraise the whole situation — after all, it's getting safely to point B that counts most :wink: .
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Jonboy, not patronising at all - good advice for me more than most!
What I didn't really convey very well previously is that neither of the two situations I experienced were in any way unusual or dangerous in their own right. I always expect cars to change lanes in front of me as it is not easy to spot a bike going fast. I expect it to happen twice, three times, four times in a row in fact. I leave more room than most any biker I know to cater for the unexpected. What I didn't expect is for the brakes to basically fail after two moderately hard applications.
In the second situation I was going faster than usual - 120 v 100, but I didn't really expect that the brakes would not be powerful enough to scrub off the higher speed when other bikes have no trouble doing so. I never expected the brakes on an SV to be ready for the racetrack and be able to do perfect stop after stop ad infinitum - just that they be as good as those on other vehicles that we share the road with.
fizzwheel
04-07-06, 12:18 PM
SV = £4K ish for a new one
GSXR or R1 etc etc = £7k and upwards.
Its daft to expect the brakes on the SV to scrub off speed like a sportsbike does. They arent in the same league.
I hear what you're saying, but still strongly suggest that the brakes on the SV are quite reasonable, but maybe because the brakes on an R1 are so astoundingly good, the SV's brakes appear poor by way of direct comparison.
The SV is technically a budget bike and has nothing more than adequate brakes to go with it. But adequate they are. Therefore if you're riding way outside of their capabilities, then maybe a more sports orientated bike (Gixxer 600 etc) is the way to go, unless you want to spend a fortune on modifying your SV. An SRAD front end of course would completely cure your problem.
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jonboy/fizzwheel, no doubt I was expecting a bit much. Anyway in summary: didn't like the brakes, searched for a solution, found solution, implemented solution and now as I am as happy as a pig in...er, a pigsty!
fizzwheel
04-07-06, 12:29 PM
jonboy/fizzwheel, no doubt I was expecting a bit much. Anyway in summary: didn't like the brakes, searched for a solution, found solution, implemented solution and now as I am as happy as a pig in...er, a pigsty!
As long as you are happy then thats the main thing. :thumbsup:
Yes if you're problem's solved, then fine ;).
Out of interest, what did it cost you in total to put on the 600 brakes?
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Lol! I don't think any brakes will do that!
Adapter plates US$125, Postage US$10, VAT/duty/charges £14, K2 GSXR600 calipers in pristine condition with 50% pads £85.
EDIT: So that is approx £172 all up. Of couse you can get much cheaper ones on Ebay, but they may or may not require new seals etc.
muddycoffee
04-07-06, 03:21 PM
My brakes and suspension is still standard, and I agree that there is a fade problem. I don't really go up to very high speeds, but when I was with a pillion and we were loaded up with tent and stuff for camping, after a 100 mile ride down the A1, I needed twice as much stopping distance, and at one time I overran onto a roundabout because the brakes just weren't as good as they normaly are.
Then with due respect I suggest your front calipers are in need of major attention, as you should be able to lock the SV's front wheel with a hard enough pull on the lever.
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Then with due respect I suggest your front calipers are in need of major attention, as you should be able to lock the SV's front wheel with a hard enough pull on the lever.
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I dont agree totaly on that, at high speed it is possable to brake very hard but it will not lock up as easly as fade sets in fairly quickly on full braking, but at slow speed it should be easly possable.
northwind
04-07-06, 03:52 PM
If there's a fade problem, it's not hardware. Or were you unaware of the number of people racing SVs with standard brakes? Your 100mph hard braking scenario isn't even as stressful on the brakes as a fast trackday session, and yet I never had any fade issues at all. Old pads, I'm thinking, or contaminated fluid. Run 4-pot Brembo radials with contaminated fluid and they'll still fade rapidly with hard use.
And as for 100/0... It's true that the fastest way to stop a bike is to use 100% of the front traction. But it's faster to use 80% of the front traction and 80% of the rear than it is to use 101% of the front traction and either have to correct a slide, or worse lowside.
As for "redundant on the track", this is simply not the case, the rear brake still sees use with many racers.
Flamin_Squirrel
04-07-06, 04:03 PM
sdusk, as northy points out the SV brakes will work well enough if you look after them.
If you need more breaking power to avoid crashing then you're a serious liability.
Good point Flaming Squirrel, but I see from svdusk's sig that he has a K5. Brakes on that shouldn't be nackered, well unless his bike has done an alarming amount of miles!!!
lukemillar
04-07-06, 07:19 PM
I feel sdusk is taking a bit of a beating here :wink:.
To be honest, if he wants to spend the money upgrading his brakes then so be it. As for the SV brakes being perfectly adequate, maybe so, but try applying this logic to an entire bike - a CB500 is a reliable means to get around so why would you ever buy a (insert sportsbike of choice) especially given that the majority are never ridden to their full potential - logic seems flawed. Also, I would argue that if you are going to spend £150 odd on your bike then the brakes is probably more worthwhile cause than say a piece of Suzuki plastic to cover your engine/rear wheel/pillion seat.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for people modding their bikes in whichever ways they seem fit - I guess different people place importance on different mods.
Each to their own!
:D
northwind
05-07-06, 12:04 AM
Oh yeah, if the question's "Is it worth doing" then I'd still say yes. I just don't think teh standard brakes are close to as bad as people like to make out. The GSXR ones, with decent fork upgrades (as sdusk has, I think, emulators from memory) and a better master cylinder to make full use, are still a hefty upgrade.
Incidentally, going back up the page, the SV m/c is the same 5/8 number as was originally used on that year's GSXR. This doesn't mean it was particularily good at the job, though. If you're spending the money to upgrade the calipers, plus the fork upgrades needed to make it work, I wouldn't personally scrimp on the m/c- a recent GSXR Nissin radial can be had on Ebay for around the £50 mark, that's how much I paid for my Brembo radial too, and it means you can make full use of those calipers.
Flamin_Squirrel
05-07-06, 08:21 AM
Oh yeah, if the question's "Is it worth doing" then I'd still say yes. I just don't think teh standard brakes are close to as bad as people like to make out. The GSXR ones, with decent fork upgrades (as sdusk has, I think, emulators from memory) and a better master cylinder to make full use, are still a hefty upgrade.
Incidentally, going back up the page, the SV m/c is the same 5/8 number as was originally used on that year's GSXR. This doesn't mean it was particularily good at the job, though. If you're spending the money to upgrade the calipers, plus the fork upgrades needed to make it work, I wouldn't personally scrimp on the m/c- a recent GSXR Nissin radial can be had on Ebay for around the £50 mark, that's how much I paid for my Brembo radial too, and it means you can make full use of those calipers.
Why is that, am I likely to suffer excessive lever travel with the standard m/c?
northwind
05-07-06, 10:00 AM
I just found it a wee bit underpowered, it did the job but it didn't have much in the way of feel. Still better than standard ;) But the difference I felt going to the Brembo was great- it's generally a better quality item too. It just makes everything more linear and predictable.
I just found it a wee bit underpowered, it did the job but it didn't have much in the way of feel. Still better than standard ;) But the difference I felt going to the Brembo was great- it's generally a better quality item too. It just makes everything more linear and predictable.
what is the bore/stoke of the brembo that you have?
to be honest, i thought the SV brakes lacked something, mabe its the bouncy front end, but they just dont seem to have enough bite and feel for my liking.
In comparison to a race rap that's true, but they work quite adequately for the purpose for which they were designed.
Obviously if you have the money, time, and skills, then upgrading them wouldn't be a bad idea if they're not satisfying your retardation needs.
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In comparison to a race rap that's true, but they work quite adequately for the purpose for which they were designed.
Obviously if you have the money, time, and skills, then upgrading them wouldn't be a bad idea if they're not satisfying your retardation needs.
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true.
there is nothing wrong with them as standard, just not what im used to.
Blue_SV650S
06-07-06, 05:22 PM
Wow this got heated at one point! … poor old sdusk :lol:
For my take on things:- I have considered the brakes upgrade myself, and the GIXER adaptors were one option. Thanks for your report sdusk.
My assessment of the SV’s brakes is that they are lacking when the speed builds up on and off the track, with race pads, with road pads.
My bike is mostly used commuting to work, so mostly at speeds <60mph. At these speeds they are indeed ‘adequate’ … sure, if I choose to give the leaver a good tug just as I am stopping for the line at a set of lights, it will indeed stand on its nose. However as soon as I/you get over 60 odd, especially over a ton, you have to book in advance if you want to slow down!!! :shock: This is where an upgrade would benefit, as modern sports bikes brakes are still very much up for the job even at these higher speeds. Personally I think the SVs brakes are dangerously lacking if you get into 3 figures.
Anyhow … now for the science’ stuff … Remember Ke = (½)mv^2, so as speed builds the amount of kinetic energy the brakes have to overcome is very quickly getting out of hand if the brakes are anything other than awesome!!! This is why what is adequate (SV brakes) very quickly become inadequate as speed builds!!
The rear brake on the other hand is the most powerful I have ever ridden. :)
northwind
06-07-06, 06:43 PM
what is the bore/stoke of the brembo that you have?
It's a long throw trail bike jobbie, 16mm (same as stock) by 18 or 21 (no serial number, can't confirm that but the 16x18 lever doesn't fit. I've finally got Knaapie's GSXR Nissin radial to work right, or nearly, I think it's a 20x21. Think I might go up a size on the Brembo ;)
For lukemillar and others who wanted to see a pic, here you go!
http://www.duskart.com/photography/l2006/_MG_9312.jpg
johnnyrod
07-07-06, 01:14 PM
Nice one sdusk, looks very neat too.
For my twopenn'th (I'm breathing aren't I?), never had a fade problem despite outrageous track day abuse on hot days, even left dotted lines with the rear tyre. Also the back brake is quite important, it is possible to ride bikes (moreso these days as they handle a lot better) with little or no back brake but, as plenty of nunmpties in cars prove every day, there is a right way and a wrong way. Doesn't matter if it's a road bike, MX or a mountain bike, the little fella is back there for a reason.
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