Two men removed from Monarch Flight

[Tris]

What's that all about.

The only explanation I've heard of these two guys "crime" was wearing a jumper when its hot and speaking arabic (or similar)

I can understand the concern, but we're on the slippery slope to no-where if we allow mob rule to take over :x :x

TRis

[Spiderman]

So true.

Two guys travelliung from a hot place in Spain to a cold place (manchester) decide to dress warmly in preparation. They speak in their own language and check their watches from time to time.... isnt that what people who are travelling or waiting to board a plane or train or any other form of mass transport do? Check for borading time / delays etc?

The airline should have taken a firmer stance and told the passengers who didnt want to board that they were free not to. If these 2 guys had been thru security and there was no issue with them then they were fine to board the plane, if the other passengers were not comfortable with that then fine, pay for another flight at another time.

I'd like to see the 2 guys sue the airline for blatant racism or discrimination. If the secuirty staff had made the decision then fair enough thats their job but for a bunch or ignorant misguided (possible sun readers) to force the point? Thats just plain wrong imho.

[Baph]

Pitch forks at dawn! :twisted:

[AlanSv]

funny thing is that we were only talking at lunch last week, about which airline would be the first to bow to hysteria and mob panic.

[keithd]

i expect they had beards too.

i'd not trust 'em

[the white rabbit]

i expect they had beards too.

i'd not trust 'em

Alan never trusted my beard, did you Alan.... :wink:

[Viney]

But on the other side of the coin....say they where not innocent and blew the plane out of the sky??

Maybe its not right at all, but theres always 2 sides of the coin, and for this, i'll be sitting on the fence.

[keithd]

or alternatively if the other passengers weren't happy, give them the option to get off the plane.

they were asian or of asian appearance, so course they were guilty.

FACT.

[Spiderman]

i was just out getting some lunch and there was a Metro newspaper on the table. The story in there about this made me laugh when i saw this quote...Met Police Chief Supt Ali Dizaei claimed recently that 'travelling while Asian' was in danger of becoming a new offence.
Sadly, he's not far away from being wrong, is he?

[fizzwheel]

or alternatively if the other passengers weren't happy, give them the option to get off the plane.

x 1

*passes Viney a cushion so he can sit more comfortably on the fence*

I think we're going to see a lot more of this. The trouble is like all these things theres so much media hyper and hysteria now that the smallest thing will set off a panic like this. Its like being back in the dark ages.

Again the terrorists win because they have disrupted another flight. So bringing more publicity to their cause.

[Peter Henry]

Recent terrorist alerts or not, this whole affair is a disgrace and the passengers responsible for causing such a commotion should be damned ashamed of themselves. That is not sitting on the fence. What if they were guilty my ****! :?

[Stu]

Can i just play devil's advocate and say that had anyone on a 9/11 plane been in a similar situation they would feel worse they hadn't done something about it at the time. Also all the terror attacks to date the passengers involved had passed through the security measures, so I wouldn't consider them infallible at all, rather an obstacle for them to overcome.
Obviously I don't know what happened but the report I read did say they were acting strange on top of ' the colour of their skin' - many possible reasons for that.
Why not be safe than sorry. Was it not a case that there were so many people refusing to board that action was taken rather than mob rule?

edit: only Alansv had posted when I started.
again I don't know but was it not the No. of people refusing to board that the airline decided to act - you can't blame the people for that.

[Peter Henry]

Stu wrote:

a case that there were so many people refusing to board

Looks pretty much like mob rule to me Stu? :?

And what incidents are you referring to to where previous incidents had seen people pass through security?

If the 9/11 story is true(come on now you have to be wondering?) the flights were internal and at that time absolute minimal security checks were used.

A car with two front seat passengers of definite middle eastern origin,(indicated by type of clothing and oh my god....rather long beards) pulled up along side me yesterday. Should I have dived for cover expecting the imminent explosion of a suicide car bomb?

Or was I correct to greet them in a friendly manner and give them the advice I thought would help them for the few hours they wanted to spend in Marbella? :?

[the white rabbit]

they were acting strange on top of ' the colour of their skin' -

What they wern't failing to shut up some screaming kids, laugh along to the 'whats been on coronation st while we've been away', not being bevvied up and making furtive comments about the air hostess?

[Balky001]

What they wern't failing to shut up some screaming kids, laugh along to the 'whats been on coronation st while we've been away', not being bevvied up and making furtive comments about the air hostess?

Dr Rich - remind me not to get on the same plane as you if you think this is how you should travel! :wink:

Yep, sounds like a case of pure hysteria.

[Stu]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5269106.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5267884.stm

I hadn't even heard of this story 'til this thread so I went and read the 2 BBC stories.
Richard Reid passed through security - so now we all have to show our shoes.
I accept your point on 9/11 being internal. I didn't think like that myself as internal flights here have always had the same security IIRC.
I was only going on "They went to the front of the queue, went to the back of the queue, and then they went and sat down by themselves"
I was under the impression that so many people refused to board so that Monarch took the view that it was easier to offload the 2 men than sort out onward transport for so many other people. Plus once they informed security, that was probably what they were instructed to do.
I'm the last person who would want 'the colour of skin' to decide how you were treated - I could post pictures of my wife & kids to support that.

Again the terrorists win because they have disrupted another flight. So bringing more publicity to their cause.
I don't understand this because which terrorists are able to claim credit for this and how is it going to achieve one step/one action in support of their demands?

[fizzwheel]

Stu, What I meant was. That the events of the other week, plus 7/7 & 9/11 do more than just disrupt those particular places on those days. What they do is to create an atmosphere of panic and distrust. Should anybody want to it would be easy to "pretend" to be a terrorist which then causes disruption to everybodies daily lives.

If a terrorist organisation wanted they could take advantage of this by dressing people up to look "funny" or "dodgy" and cause panic such as has happened on this flight. It would take alot of effort to disrupt pretty much any flights into and out of any country.

Therefore surely the atmosphere fear of hysteria we have at the moment is down to percieved threat, which is what the people on the flight mentioned were reacting to. Rather than actual threat. Which could be directed attributed to the events of the other week and that fact that theres still a high level of security in place at airports at present.

[sharriso74]

With Osmas millions do you really think any self respecting terrorist would fly monarch

[Viney]

With Osmas millions do you really think any self respecting terrorist would fly monarch :lol:

[Tris]

I was only going on "They went to the front of the queue, went to the back of the queue, and then they went and sat down by themselves"

Perhaps they had only flown once from the UK were the understood the language and were confused by all the Spanish being spoken. I've seen plenty of people wondering around looking bewildered at airports before now that didn't understand the system.


If a terrorist organisation wanted they could take advantage of this by dressing people up to look "funny" or "dodgy" and cause panic such as has happened on this flight. It would take alot of effort to disrupt pretty much any flights into and out of any country.

And if you wanted to sneak a bomb on an aircraft would you go out of your way to bring attention to yourself? I think not

Tris

[Cronos]

This does sound like an over-reaction and pandering to mob hysteria. This sort of thing plays into the hands of fundamentalists looking to create divisions who'll use it a evidence of a prejudiced society. Unfortunately in this instance I have to say they have a point. :(

[lynw]

hmmmm lets think:

a plane back to Manchester, no doubt full of Mancunians having been on the booze for two weeks - anyone care to show me any normal person that wouldnt be acting worried. :P :wink: :lol:

Seriously, this is a disgrace. Why dont we just implement an apartheid system now? Whites only flights, muslim only flights. Because that unfortunately is where this will ultimately take us if we pander to mob rule.

People run the "what if they were acting suspiciously" routine. Well if they had anything and had managed to get it through security they would have been arrested and detained. The point is they hadnt - they were allowed to fly back the next day.

We run the risk of alienating more young muslims by the hysterical reactions and the treatment they receive - if anyone is pushing them towards fundamentalism and becoming the threat British people are terrified of it is the British people themselves. We reap what we sow - we treat people like this, so why should we be surprised when they become influenced by hate clerics.

[Cronos]

Why dont we just implement an apartheid system now? Whites only flights, muslim only flights.

What about the white muslims? :? :P

Seriously though, well said.

[northwind]

I was under the impression that so many people refused to board so that Monarch took the view that it was easier to offload the 2 men than sort out onward transport for so many other people.

Wel, exactly. Easier to pander to cretins than to do the right thing. "Get on theplane or walk home, no refunds" should have been the first and only response.

[jenni]

I was under the impression that so many people refused to board so that Monarch took the view that it was easier to offload the 2 men than sort out onward transport for so many other people.

Wel, exactly. Easier to pander to cretins than to do the right thing. "Get on theplane or walk home, no refunds" should have been the first and only response.

yep, i hope that they sue for a lot of money,

oh and by the way, security is rubbish. my mate and i travelled on a flight from leeds - edinburgh for work (this was a few months ago btw)

all was fine going out but on the way back the security guard found a stanley knife that had been in her hand luggage all the time :shock:

you should have seem our faces though, I thought we were gonna get arrested for sure :lol:

[Jester666]

Shove over Viney I'm joining you on the fence for this one as well! :lol:

[UlsterSV]

With Osmas millions do you really think any self respecting terrorist would fly monarch

Another classic one liner :lol: :lol:

[Stu]

I take it all back.

Having seen the family form the UK/Dubai? being removed from the queue for the London Eye for speaking Arabic - THE WHOLE WORLD'S GONE MAD!

And I for one don't want to live in a world with that much predjudice, injustice, stupidity and fear.

[Spiderman]

I take it all back.

Having seen the family form the UK/Dubai? being removed from the queue for the London Eye for speaking Arabic - THE WHOLE WORLD'S GONE MAD!

And I for one don't want to live in a world with that much predjudice, injustice, stupidity and fear.

Unreal!
What de fu is going on in the minds of some people?

[timwilky]

A while back I was flying from Manchester to Dubai. Because of **** ups with incoming flights I ended up transferred at the last minute to an Emirates flight.


When I boarded the lady in the adjacent seat initially assumed I was Emirates crew and then explained that the two seats we were occupying were reserved normally for returning crew.

Across the aisle there was an obviously Arab guy behaving strangely, she asked me did I find him suspicious and I did. He was talking to himself and his hands were moving all over the place. Halfway through the flight he went to the toilets. 2 minutes later the fire alarms went off. The off duty lady next to me ran down the aisle, grabbed a fire extinguisher from an overhead locker and kicked open the door.

They brought back the individual to his seat and his friend tried to explain that the guy had head problems. so they confiscated his friends lighter as well.

She then told me when she sat down that he had filled the toilet bowl & sink with disposable towels/loo roll and set fire to it. When we landed these two were taken off by police who boarded the aircraft before anyone was allowed to leave.

Having seen first hand the stupid antics that people are prepared to do on aircraft, I have to admit that I would be wary of flying with somebody I thought suspicious. I would not demand that somebody leave a plane simply because of their nationality/colour etc. But once suspicions raised I would be watching for the first sign of them upto something.

Interesting that we were discussing hijacking in the pub a few days ago. The consensus being that it would no longer occur as passengers attitudes have been changed from do nothing and you might get out alive, into I would rather die fighting and might survive than sit here a die doing nothing.

Question. Are there enough keywords in this thread to ring an alarm on the Echelon system?

[Spiderman]

A while back I was flying from Manchester to Dubai. Because of c*ck ups with incoming flights I ended up transferred at the last minute to an Emirates flight.


When I boarded the lady in the adjacent seat initially assumed I was Emirates crew and then explained that the two seats we were occupying were reserved normally for returning crew.

Across the aisle there was an obviously Arab guy behaving strangely, she asked me did I find him suspicious and I did. He was talking to himself and his hands were moving all over the place. Halfway through the flight he went to the toilets. 2 minutes later the fire alarms went off. The off duty lady next to me ran down the aisle, grabbed a fire extinguisher from an overhead locker and kicked open the door.

They brought back the individual to his seat and his friend tried to explain that the guy had head problems. so they confiscated his friends lighter as well.

She then told me when she sat down that he had filled the toilet bowl & sink with disposable towels/loo roll and set fire to it. When we landed these two were taken off by police who boarded the aircraft before anyone was allowed to leave.

Having seen first hand the stupid antics that people are prepared to do on aircraft, I have to admit that I would be wary of flying with somebody I thought suspicious. I would not demand that somebody leave a plane simply because of their nationality/colour etc. But once suspicions raised I would be watching for the first sign of them upto something.

Interesting that we were discussing hijacking in the pub a few days ago. The consensus being that it would no longer occur as passengers attitudes have been changed from do nothing and you might get out alive, into I would rather die fighting and might survive than sit here a die doing nothing.

Question. Are there enough keywords in this thread to ring an alarm on the Echelon system?

Well if we dont see you post for the next 28days we'll know why wont we ;)

I agree with keeping a close eye on suspicious people, thats good self preservation. And dont most flights now have armed sky marshal on them for this reason?

[lynw]

Well if we dont see you post for the next 28days we'll know why wont we ;)

I agree with keeping a close eye on suspicious people, thats good self preservation. And dont most flights now have armed sky marshal on them for this reason?

Mention Al Quaeda in a post - that will get the system going :P

Re sky marshalls, isnt that for US bound flights only?

[Spiderman]

Well if we dont see you post for the next 28days we'll know why wont we ;)

I agree with keeping a close eye on suspicious people, thats good self preservation. And dont most flights now have armed sky marshal on them for this reason?

Mention Al Quaeda in a post - that will get the system going :P

Re sky marshalls, isnt that for US bound flights only?

Dunno, thats why i asked. I would have thought with the "special" relationship we share with them we copy and blindly follow their lead, non?

[tinpants]

They're obviously guilty. Charge 'em with treason and string 'em up. :shock:

















*runs and hides*

I'm not being serious, BTW. :roll:

[Tris]

Question. Are there enough keywords in this thread to ring an alarm on the Echelon system?

What's the Echelon system? :oops:

[timwilky]

Question. Are there enough keywords in this thread to ring an alarm on the Echelon system?

What's the Echelon system? :oops:

There is no such thing. deny,deny,deny.

[PsychoCannon]

Argh....quiet...you'll get their attention

*checks to make sure his tinfoil hat is still on securely and applies a 2nd layer of I can't believe it's not butter*

Phew...well i'm safe, sorry for you suckers :)

[PsychoCannon]

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=13270220&src=eDialog/GetContent

And another one...

[Tris]

Question. Are there enough keywords in this thread to ring an alarm on the Echelon system?

What's the Echelon system? :oops:

There is no such thing. deny,deny,deny.


Aha - You mean BIG BROTHER (not the muppets on channel 4)

[Jools'SV Now]

The two men in question have been interviewed on the news.

oh yeah, really shifty.....NOT


unbelievable Jeff ! (best Cammy voice req)

'if people are that scared, i feel sorry for them' said shifty man number 1 as he stroked a white cat and cackled.
'no Mr Bond, I expect you to die!' the other said excitedly.

:roll:

[lynw]

The two men in question have been interviewed on the news.

Thanks for pointing that out.. :D Fair play to them that they arent ****ed off - I would be seriously annoyed with the small mindedness of the people on that flight.

"The minute they got on [the plane] they started going under the seats and messing.

yeah cos no-ones ever read the safety instructions and looked for the inflatable vest under the seat have they? Or played around trying to adjust the seat. :roll:

She said: "They queued up for a good 40 or 50 minutes and then wandered off. They kept coming back, standing very, very close to people, intimidating them.

FFS the woman has never queued at Stansted then. :roll: If you were in an hour long queue wouldnt you wander off with boredom if someone else was there to hold your place?

"When people began to take notice - and one young girl was really upset, crying - they just sat there laughing."

hmmmm maybe they thought she was crying over something else and oblivious to what people were thinking they were two mates enjoying a joke?

Fantastic. Can I lay odds the woman who said this stuff is blonde?

Damn, can we have the visordown dozey smiley installed. None of the ones available convey the level of doziness of the people on this flight. :?

[UlsterSV]

Why dont we just implement an apartheid system now? Whites only flights, muslim only flights.

White is a race. Islam is a religion.

We run the risk of alienating more young muslims by the hysterical reactions and the treatment they receive - if anyone is pushing them towards fundamentalism and becoming the threat British people are terrified of it is the British people themselves. We reap what we sow - we treat people like this, so why should we be surprised when they become influenced by hate clerics.

That's right it's everyone elses fault. Mine included. How dare we be worried that people living in our own countries might want to kill us. How dare we value our lives over political correctness. If I'm ever on a plane and see someone who I think is suspicious, I'll sit back and ignore them and if they end up flying the plane straight into a building, well I'll die with a smile on my face knowing I didn't alienate any young Muslims.

[Peter Henry]

Ulster wrote:
How dare we be worried that people living in our own countries might want to kill us.

Coming from a place with a back ground as you do,I really expected you to offer a lot more on that particular point mate. :wink:

[UlsterSV]

Ulster wrote:
How dare we be worried that people living in our own countries might want to kill us.

Coming from a place with a back ground as you do,I really expected you to offer a lot more on that particular point mate. :wink:

I said "worried" Peter, not "scared." :wink:

[Peter Henry]

Ulster....Fair comment fella, very fair comment. :)

[lynw]

White is a race. Islam is a religion.

You know full well the point I was making, if you cant do anything but pick holes in how I phrase something, why bother replying? Its not like youre making a constructive contribution by doing so is it? :roll:

That's right it's everyone elses fault. Mine included. How dare we be worried that people living in our own countries might want to kill us. How dare we value our lives over political correctness. If I'm ever on a plane and see someone who I think is suspicious, I'll sit back and ignore them and if they end up flying the plane straight into a building, well I'll die with a smile on my face knowing I didn't alienate any young Muslims.

And another constructive post from you. :roll: Quite simply, if people over react [which is what is happening] and alienate muslims the problem is going to get worse. It is going to push more into doing these things. How hard is that to understand? Surely the answer is to NOT give them reason to? :roll:

Oh and precisely where did I say that we dont have a right to be worried? Where exactly did I say that we shouldnt act if we think something is suspicious? :roll:

Do you ever read anything I post without adding imaginary bits in? :roll:

My point is the fact people are not acting on suspicious behaviour but treating race [as in asian] and religion [as in muslim] as automatically suspicious. This is nothing more than hysteria which allows people to vent their racist views. I did wonder when youd post defending people holding those views. :roll:

[UlsterSV]

You know full well the point I was making

By leaving out other races you were implying the blue eyed devil is the main aggressor/opposer of Islam.


Quite simply, if people over react [which is what is happening] and alienate muslims the problem is going to get worse. It is going to push more into doing these things.

You seem to be working off the basis that certain Muslims feel the way they do because there is some sort of active resistance Britons carry out towards them. That we aren't accomodating enough. Well Lyn the only way you'll accomodate them is if you catch the next boat/ship/plane to as far away as possible and leave Britain to them.

Where exactly did I say that we shouldnt act if we think something is suspicious?

You were quick to condemn the people on that plane who acted when they saw something suspicious.

This is nothing more than hysteria which allows people to vent their racist views.

Fact is the bombers of 7/7 were not white and were Muslim. Obviously not all non white Muslims are bombers, but all the bombers were non white Muslims. Therefore people are entirely entitled to be concerned. But nice try on attempting to label them as racist. Something I've seen you do quite often on here. Keep going and one day you might get the stigma to stick.

[lynw]

By leaving out other races you were implying the blue eyed devil is the main aggressor/opposer of Islam.

No I wasnt. FFS, do I have to write a 26 page post to cover every single race/religion to satisfy your pickiness? :roll: Youre just being picky over words and ignoring the point I was making that this will sadly lead us to a form of apartheid which will do us no good in the long run.


You seem to be working off the basis that certain Muslims feel the way they do because there is some sort of active resistance Britons carry out towards them. That we aren't accomodating enough. Well Lyn the only way you'll accomodate them is if you catch the next boat/ship/plane to as far away as possible and leave Britain to them.

Your comment above seems to suggest that racism doesnt exist. That they have no reason to feel aggrieved. Yet it does. And hysteria where we turn travelling while being Asian into a suspicious activity is not going to do anything but alienate more muslims and listen to those who argue for fighting back.

Im not saying we arent accomodating enough. What I am saying is this hysteria does more damage than good. That by labelling asian/muslims as terrorists you are going to anger some enough to push them down that road. Im not saying we become more accomodating merely that we dont become less so.

You were quick to condemn the people on that plane who acted when they saw something suspicious.

Funnily enough, being asian, looking at watches in an airport, looking under your seat where a life vest is kept and having a laugh with your mate dont add up to suspicious to me. However to people on the plane it seems being asian is now equating to being suspicious. I believe the motive behind this was unadulterated racism. They were not found with anything on them. Their actions are all reasonably explained if you are rational enough to view them.

Fact is the bombers of 7/7 were not white and were Muslim. Obviously not all non white Muslims are bombers, but all the bombers were non white Muslims. Therefore people are entirely entitled to be concerned. But nice try on attempting to label them as racist. Something I've seen you do quite often on here. Keep going and one day you might get the stigma to stick.

But what this ultimately boils down to is this. Had the same behaviour been demonstrated by white males, no-one would have batted an eyelid. Because it was asian men, its an instant panic, we're all going to die hysteria. That is racism in its simplest form. Because no-ones thinking rationally about this. What is going to happen when one bomber is a white muslim? :?

[UlsterSV]

Funnily enough, being asian, looking at watches in an airport, looking under your seat where a life vest is kept and having a laugh with your mate dont add up to suspicious to me.

Doesn't matter whether you regard these things as suspicious or not. You weren't on the plane.

I believe the motive behind this was unadulterated racism.

So I take it the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes was the secret services indulging in a bit of unadulterated anti - Latin American racism?

Their actions are all reasonably explained if you are rational enough to view them.

Yes they are when you're sitting thinking about it in the safety of your own home and have the benifit of hindsight.

Had the same behaviour been demonstrated by white males, no-one would have batted an eyelid.

White males didn't carry out 7/7 so why would people be suspicious of them?

Because it was asian men, its an instant panic, we're all going to die hysteria. That is racism in its simplest form.

It's racism if people are suspicious of Asian men with no cause to be. However Asian men carried out 7/7 therefore Asian men will automatically attract more attention. Same way if white males carried out 7/7 and say, for example, they were all wearing red caps. That red cap would become a form of identification and I am in no doubt that if two white men had gotten on that plane wearing red caps they would have been treated in exactly the same way. Would this mean the people on that plane were prejudiced against white men wearing red caps?

It was Asian men who carried out 7/7 and being Asian has unfortunately become the form of identification. It just doesn't sit comfortably with you because the form of identification is based on race and this is a classic case of over reaction and being overtly pc on your part.

[lynw]

Oh another constructive post from you :roll: - Im over reacting and too PC?

No, the people on the plane were over reacting. The people on the London Eye were over reacting.

As for me over reacting and PC? No, Im not. Im simply not a coward, bigot and racist.

And Im done since this we are going round in the same argument we always do.

[UlsterSV]

No, the people on the plane were over reacting. The people on the London Eye were over reacting.

In your opinion. You weren't there. You might have done the same things.

Im simply not a coward, bigot and racist.

Good for you. Though I very much doubt the people on that plane gave two ****s what names people called them if they were wrong. I think they valued their lives and their peace of mind over the opinions of other people.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

No, the people on the plane were over reacting. The people on the London Eye were over reacting.

In your opinion. You weren't there. You might have done the same things.

Im simply not a coward, bigot and racist.

Good for you. Though I very much doubt the people on that plane gave two ****s what names people called them if they were wrong. I think they valued their lives and their peace of mind over the opinions of other people.

Suppose you'd be in favour of arresting young black men out past 11pm too right? After all, they're probably just out to rob someone.

I agree with Lyn (I know, I know :shock:). These men past security and as such shouldn't be subjected to the humiliation of being thrown off the flight for looking a bit foriegn.

[Sid Squid]

Funnily enough, being asian, looking at watches in an airport, looking under your seat where a life vest is kept and having a laugh with your mate dont add up to suspicious to me. However to people on the plane it seems being asian is now equating to being suspicious. I believe the motive behind this was unadulterated racism. They were not found with anything on them. Their actions are all reasonably explained if you are rational enough to view them.
I don't agree.

We may all sit comfortably in front of our computers with plenty of unfussed and untroubled thinking time and the rationality that we can all apply at a distance and say that those actions when dispassionately described aren't suspicious.

We weren't there, are all Mancunians incorrigible racists? I don't think so - if enough of those people considered the actions of two quite innocent people suspicious then we can't possibly reasonably override their view of the situation with a view that we can't possibly have, due to not having witnessed them. Sometimes the only reasonable assumption is that other people are reasonable too. Accepting their view of a circumstance with all the subtleties and nuances that cannot possibly be communicated to us, (and wouldn't be communicated as it would detract from sensationalist news), is being reasonable.

I feel your accusations of racism are rather too easily cast, to see it as the only possible explanation is unfair and unreasonable.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Funnily enough, being asian, looking at watches in an airport, looking under your seat where a life vest is kept and having a laugh with your mate dont add up to suspicious to me. However to people on the plane it seems being asian is now equating to being suspicious. I believe the motive behind this was unadulterated racism. They were not found with anything on them. Their actions are all reasonably explained if you are rational enough to view them.
I don't agree.

We may all sit comfortably in front of our computers with plenty of unfussed and untroubled thinking time and the rationality that we can all apply at a distance and say that those actions when dispassionately described aren't suspicious.

We weren't there, are all Mancunians incorrigible racists? I don't think so - if enough of those people considered the actions of two quite innocent people suspicious then we can't possibly reasonably override their view of the situation with a view that we can't possibly have, due to not having witnessed them. Sometimes the only reasonable assumption is that other people are reasonable too. Accepting their view of a circumstance with all the subtleties and nuances that cannot possibly be communicated to us, (and wouldn't be communicated as it would detract from sensationalist news), is being reasonable.

I feel your accusations of racism are rather too easily cast, to see it as the only possible explanation is unfair and unreasonable.

I'm not so sure. Your last sentance is probably true, but to assume that all those people were being reasonable isnt neccesarily true.

Inderviduals given the opertunity can almost always be left on their own to make resonable decisions for themselves. It's when you get groups of them together like this then problems can occur. Irrationality, panic, fear and good ole mob rule can all come together to make people act in ways they shouldn't and otherwise wouldn't, and I suspect this was one of those cases.

[CoolGirl]

I usually keep out of this line of debate, but having used an airport in the last week, a couple of things stood out.

1. White passengers were given different information to me about what they were allowed to carry on to the aircraft (this was at the time of the total hand luggage ban). Some women were allowed to carry their handbags, other people were taking their phones and ipods etc - I wasn't, and had to put my documents etc in a clear plastic bag. But then I didn't speak to any other non-white passengers or look at what they were carrying.

2. My 10 -year-old son was frisked going through security. This has never happened before, nor have I ever seen any other child get frisked. EVER. and I travel a lot. I asked him afterwards how he felt about it, and he just said that it tickled.

My friends and colleagues have a standing joke that goes back years, not to travel by air with me as I ALWAYS get stopped at security and get given a good going over. I think it's because I don't fit any typical profile. But last week was something else.

I'm flying again next week. I'd better not 'look suspicious'.

[lynw]

I feel your accusations of racism are rather too easily cast, to see it as the only possible explanation is unfair and unreasonable.

Feel what you want, but I think most certainly had 2 white males behaved in exactly the same way they would not have been kicked off the flight. :P

From the news report it most certainly was not the majority of passengers on the plane that caused this. It was a minority. Why the paranoia and hysteria if there were no underlying prejudice resulting in an overwhelming eagerness to presume the worst? THAT is why I say this has a basis in racism as much as you think I say it too much.

Reading todays metro on the train home had an interesting article about a program on Bin Laden on CNN tonight. It suggests we are in line for an extremely violent attack this autumn. What hes been doing since 9/11 is giving the West time to convert - so that he can comply with Mohammeds law stating you should only attack if people given the chance dont adopt Islam. Hes done that and so in his eyes hes prepared the way to be acting legitimately according to the Quran.

It is unlikely that Al Qaeda will find recruits from the US. Because the muslim communities have been generally successful and they want to live in such a society. The report highlights Intelligence concerns that the biggest threat in the West comes from Europe.

The unemployment rate for male muslims between 20 - 40 is 22%. The receiving end of racism and lack of work resulted in a poll saying 13% would support any action they see to combat that or achieve a way they can "fight" back. It is the same story in France with its Moroccan muslims, Germany, Spain etc. This is the reality. We are alienating more people with this paranoia and hysteria, and we will pay a dear price for it down the line if we dont get a grip and deal with the REAL problems behind this ie unemployment and discrimination.

Mob rule is not right. Its rule by heart feelings and underlying prejudices not by head and common sense. Say what you like about my posts, it doesnt change the fact that what happened was wrong. Those few that kicked up this stink should have been put off the flight, NOT the two lads. Quite simply if they were not happy to fly, get another flight not make a major bloody incident out of it.

[CoolGirl]

Reading todays metro on the train home had an interesting article about a program on Bin Laden on CNN tonight. It suggests we are in line for an extremely violent attack this autumn. What hes been doing since 9/11 is giving the West time to convert - so that he can comply with Mohammeds law stating you should only attack if people given the chance dont adopt Islam. Hes done that and so in his eyes hes prepared the way to be acting legitimately according to the Quran.

That'll be interesting - more scaremongering on the part of the White House in order to defend their untenable position, I expect.

Those few that kicked up this stink should have been put off the flight, NOT the two lads

reminds me of that urban myth about a white woman refusing to sit next to a black man on a flight. She complained to the flight attnedant who went off to have a word with the captain. The attendant returned to deliver the following message:
"The captain says that there are no more free seats in coach or business class, but he's happy to offer a seat in first class..."
As the female passenger begins to collect up her belongings as if to move, the flight attendant continues
"...So sir, if you'd like to step forward and take the seat in the forward cabin. And the captain sincerely apologises for the racism you've encountered today"

or something like that, but you get the point.

[Baph]

reminds me of that urban myth about a white woman refusing to sit next to a black man on a flight. She complained to the flight attnedant who went off to have a word with the captain. The attendant returned to deliver the following message:
"The captain says that there are no more free seats in coach or business class, but he's happy to offer a seat in first class..."
As the female passenger begins to collect up her belongings as if to move, the flight attendant continues
"...So sir, if you'd like to step forward and take the seat in the forward cabin. And the captain sincerely apologises for the racism you've encountered today"

IMO, exactly as life should be. Unfortunately, it's a sad world we live in, and usually things just don't turn out like that.

I suspect in the case of Monach, their decision was more influenced by cost analysis. Do we pay to reschedule two people, or two hundred people? Hmmm, tough one. Even if it was only perceived that the majority of the passengers felt the same way, when in fact, as lyn has said, it was probably only a minority.

Until we dispose of money & start doing everything out of the good of our hearts, this is the way the world will stay.

[Sid Squid]

:P

You too, twice over :P :P

Glad we can keep this civil and grown up, :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lynw]

Reading todays metro on the train home had an interesting article about a program on Bin Laden on CNN tonight. It suggests we are in line for an extremely violent attack this autumn. What hes been doing since 9/11 is giving the West time to convert - so that he can comply with Mohammeds law stating you should only attack if people given the chance dont adopt Islam. Hes done that and so in his eyes hes prepared the way to be acting legitimately according to the Quran.

That'll be interesting - more scaremongering on the part of the White House in order to defend their untenable position, I expect.

Actually its not a WH sanctioned program. Its by a journalist whos interviewed Bin Laden and spent most of his career covering the middle east. Not a whisper from the WH on this one. :wink:

[Razor]

"For years, many governments played down the threats of the Islamic revolution, turned a blind eye to international terrorism and accepted the development of weaponry of mass destruction. Indeed, some politicians were happy to go further, collaborating with the self-proclaimed enemies of the West for their own short-term gain - but enough about the French."

- Margaret Thatcher

[UlsterSV]

We are alienating more people with this paranoia and hysteria, and we will pay a dear price for it down the line if we dont get a grip and deal with the REAL problems behind this ie unemployment and discrimination.

If they're the real problems what were Balfour, Sykes and Picot?

[philipMac]

We are alienating more people with this paranoia and hysteria, and we will pay a dear price for it down the line if we dont get a grip and deal with the REAL problems behind this ie unemployment and discrimination.

If they're the real problems what were Balfour, Sykes and Picot?
Alright boys and girls. Havnt been about for a while. Bitta agro. Very good.

Just so you all know, which, of course, you did, the Balfour Declaration was the agreement that the brits helpfully knocked out, saying that parts of Palestine are not belonging to the Palestinians any more, and now the new Jewish Natural Home.

Which was good of them.

Suprising as it sounds, there has been some political fallout over this subsequently.

[UlsterSV]

More or less. The Balfour Declaration, addressed to Lord Rothschild of the Jewish Zionist Rothschild banking dynasty, was put out as official endorsement of the Zionist cause but was vague enough not to upset anyone who might not be happy with what the Zionists were doing. Which included the vast majority of Jews, it has to be said. The Sykes-Picot Agreement drummed up by French, British and Zionist agents detailed what land was to be given to Britain, France and Russia. They were two huge knives in the back of the Arabs who had fought alongside the Christian British to defeat Turkey after the British government promised them their land would be given back to them. And of course since then the puppets in government have done everything for Zionism and nothing for the millions of Palestinians who have been persecuted, jailed, tortured, killed and evicted by the Jews. The people (and I don't mean Lyn!) who tell us Muslims don't like us because of racism, unemployment and 'western lifestyle' are the Zionists themselves. They just don't want us to know Muslim discontent is their fault.

Because that's the thing with colonialism. Settling land that hasn't already got people living there is one thing, but trying to settle land that already has people living there and then displacing them by brute force is something completely different. Eventually the displaced people will fight back. And they have. Big style.

[lynw]

More or less. The Balfour Declaration, addressed to Lord Rothschild of the Jewish Zionist Rothschild banking dynasty, was put out as official endorsement of the Zionist cause but was vague enough not to upset anyone who might not be happy with what the Zionists were doing. Which included the vast majority of Jews, it has to be said. The Sykes-Picot Agreement drummed up by French, British and Zionist agents detailed what land was to be given to Britain, France and Russia. They were two huge knives in the back of the Arabs who had fought alongside the Christian British to defeat Turkey after the British government promised them their land would be given back to them. And of course since then the puppets in government have done everything for Zionism and nothing for the millions of Palestinians who have been persecuted, jailed, tortured, killed and evicted by the Jews. The people (and I don't mean Lyn!) who tell us Muslims don't like us because of racism, unemployment and 'western lifestyle' are the Zionists themselves. They just don't want us to know Muslim discontent is their fault.

Because that's the thing with colonialism. Settling land that hasn't already got people living there is one thing, but trying to settle land that already has people living there and then displacing them by brute force is something completely different. Eventually the displaced people will fight back. And they have. Big style.

Sorry, just had to pick myself up off the floor. A post of yours I agreed with :shock: :wink: :P :lol:

Just about to start a book called Winstons Folly about this very subject about the consequences that we are still facing from the 1921 decision to impose a monarchy on what is now Iraq and other decisions which affect the middle east even now.

Interesting start to the book about how the Flying Corps ordered chemical weapons to use on the people they were fighting - though they were ordered it appears never used. How times change. :?

[UlsterSV]

And I didn't read any of that in The Sun :wink:

But Lyn what I don't understand then is why you say Muslim discontent is down to racism, unemployment etc? I'm not disputing that conditions in western countries don't perhaps fan the flames, as it were, but surely the root cause of all of this is what I outlined in my previous post? What I mean is, shouldn't we be more worried about tackling Zionist manipulation of our governments rather than trying to tackle problems that arise due to cultural differences? Because no matter what sort of ground work we lay down it's all irrelevent if successive British governments continue to do what they've been doing to the Middle East for the last 100 years.

I haven't read Winston's Folly but it does look like a good read. But Churchill was a Zionist all his political life and his refusal to negotiate peace with Germany coupled with jailing Rudolf Hess until his death make it very hard for me to read anything about the man. Even when it does expose his incompetence.

[lynw]

And I didn't read any of that in The Sun :wink:

But Lyn what I don't understand then is why you say Muslim discontent is down to racism, unemployment etc? I'm not disputing that conditions in western countries don't perhaps fan the flames, as it were, but surely the root cause of all of this is what I outlined in my previous post? What I mean is, shouldn't we be more worried about tackling Zionist manipulation of our governments rather than trying to tackle problems that arise due to cultural differences? Because no matter what sort of ground work we lay down it's all irrelevent if successive British governments continue to do what they've been doing to the Middle East for the last 100 years.

I would suggest racism and unemployment add to the sense of injustice that muslims feel. Unemployed muslims are more likely to spend their time listening to the clerics who talk about this and fuel a desire to "fight back" against all injustices.

I suspect if these guys didnt feel some sense of injustice in their every day lives [from racism and unemployment in the case highlighted in the metro article] it would be harder to identify with muslims several thousand miles away and injustices which go back over 80 years.

I think the clerics tie it all in as "the world vs muslims" and it starts to become more real to them in what is happening in the middle east. Once you fuel a sense of injustice and frustration that the West wont do anything about it, you end up in an extreme minority of cases with people prepared to die for it.

I haven't read Winston's Folly but it does look like a good read. But Churchill was a Zionist all his political life and his refusal to negotiate peace with Germany coupled with jailing Rudolf Hess until his death make it very hard for me to read anything about the man. Even when it does expose his incompetence.

To me the Nazis were a whole different kettle of fish and the kind of people I think Churchill was savvy enough to know would not honour any negotiated peace. No matter what other decisions hes made that still impact us, I think his stand against Hitler was the correct course to take.

[UlsterSV]

I suspect if these guys didnt feel some sense of injustice in their every day lives [from racism and unemployment in the case highlighted in the metro article] it would be harder to identify with muslims several thousand miles away and injustices which go back over 80 years.

It might have gathered pace 80 years ago but israel hasn't stopped expanding it's borders and our governments are just as bad now as they were in 1915. We've fought two Arab countries already this century and the list is only going to get longer. The injustice didn't come and go 80 years ago, it was only just the beginning. But now that they're living in the country carrying out these injustices they are better able to fight back.

To me the Nazis were a whole different kettle of fish and the kind of people I think Churchill was savvy enough to know would not honour any negotiated peace. No matter what other decisions hes made that still impact us, I think his stand against Hitler was the correct course to take.

Surely it was worth a go to end the killing? Surely he should have at least met with Hess? Any man who flies to a country he's at war with alone, at night, and makes his first ever parachute jump all to try to secure peace surely deserves five minutes? Think of the lives that could have been saved. It would have been in the best interests of all of Europe to end the war, which surely makes one wonder whose interests Churchill valued the most? It's interesting also that the most sensitive official documents regarding Hess' peace offering were locked away and are not to be opened for another ten years. Churchill and the British government must have done something they'd rather us not know about.

How people think of the Nazis today has been Zionism's greatest achievement IMO. The only time a western people have been free from Zionist manipulation was in National Socialist Germany. Therefore they've been the most villified people in history. By bombarding us with propaganda rather than truth Zionists make it very hard for us to dissasociate National Socialism with anything other than evil thus making their power nearly absolute.

Anyway I digress slightly but all of this does tie in with our situation today. I just think it's important we start looking at history from a different angle.

[lynw]

How people think of the Nazis today has been Zionism's greatest achievement IMO. The only time a western people have been free from Zionist manipulation was in National Socialist Germany. Therefore they've been the most villified people in history. By bombarding us with propaganda rather than truth Zionists make it very hard for us to dissasociate National Socialism with anything other than evil thus making their power nearly absolute.

Anyway I digress slightly but all of this does tie in with our situation today. I just think it's important we start looking at history from a different angle.

Lets get this straight.

You think the holocaust was a "Zionist greatest achievement"? :?
That they killed themselves to change how we think of the Nazis? :?
That the Nazis would be well thought of if they had murdered millions of people from other races? :? [which is what they did and WHY we have the opinion of them most of us do :roll: ]
That with the Nazis killing millions of people it was an acceptable way to be "free from Zionist manipulation"? :?
That the Nazis are unjustly "villified"? So the atrocities they carried out murdering millions of people dont warrant that villification? :?
That the holocaust is entirely just "propaganda"?

If it has been used as propaganda it was to gain a Jewish homeland, not to villify the Nazis as you suggest. The Nazis villified themselves by the record of what they did - the genocide of millions of people inextricably linked their actions to National Socialism.

You say we should have tried to make peace to stop the deaths. But that would have stopped only allied deaths, the point is it would have given the Nazis carte blanche to wipe out whoever they chose, it would not have stopped those deaths.

Churchill was savvy enough to know that once the whole of Europe was under the Nazi regime any "peace" treaty we had wouldnt be worth the paper it was written on and they WOULD have invaded and made their rule complete. I would say to think otherwise is very naive or shows strong Nazi sympathy. :?

[Biker Biggles]

Did'nt Churchill offer to give Ulster to the Republic of Ireland if they joined the war on our side?Did'nt Hitler bomb Dublin to persuade them otherwise?
Leaving aside the Zionist issue I have to agree with Lyn on the peace at any cost with Hitler thing.There is no way that an expansionist military state like Germany would have stopped at the borders of the then British Empire.They would also have developed nuclear weapons by the late 1940s and what would Hitler have done with them?

[UlsterSV]

Lyn, haven't you ever thought to question any of that?

"He who controls the Present, controls the Past; he who controls the Past controls the Future."

BB, Churchill promised everyone everything during WW2. In his early political career he supported Home Rule but staunchly defended Ulster's exclusion. It was his father Randolph who coined the phrase, "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!"

[lynw]

Lyn, haven't you ever thought to question any of that?

"He who controls the Present, controls the Past; he who controls the Past controls the Future.""

So are you now going to suggest that it really is a holohoax? That it didnt happen? That the allies made up all the images, all the documentary evidence, they built the camps AFTER the war, and murdered millions and blamed it on the Nazis to "villify" them?

The Germans themselves dont deny they did these things. The Allies had no need to create any propaganda. The images, survivors and other records speak for themselves. I think the majority of us look at those images and come to the same conclusion WITHOUT having to be told what we should think by a government.

And even if you suggest its one sided and there were good points to the Nazis, NO amount of good can EVER atone for or justify the sheer evilness they carried out to genocide millions of people.

:?

[Alpinestarhero]

Good job i didnt fly after the recent events surrounding air-travel. I went on holiday abroad for the FIRST TIME in my life this year (im 20) and it was my first time flying. I was petrified. I was nervous. I couldnt look the staff in the eye. I had to be helped to walk by my girlfreind as i was wobbly at the knee's. I even threw up and put some lady off her dinner in the departure lounge.

All this two weeks before all the events. If it was after...i probably woulda been uder suspicion. Specialy when they found my chemistry book in my bag that i was taking notes form for university!

Its terrible, the world we live in now. Everyone is looking over their shoulder, everyone is paranoid of being caught, being fined, being mugged, being killed, being alive almost.

Oh what to do...

Matt

[Anonymous]

How people think of the Nazis today has been Zionism's greatest achievement IMO. The only time a western people have been free from Zionist manipulation was in National Socialist Germany. Therefore they've been the most villified people in history. By bombarding us with propaganda rather than truth Zionists make it very hard for us to dissasociate National Socialism with anything other than evil thus making their power nearly absolute.



That's intresting. I rememer reding in histry at school how that other Gret Irishman Eamon De Valera went off to the German Embassy to giv his condolinces (sp) when he herd of Hitler's daeth. Don think many Jews refugese went to Eire either. I spose de Valera is one of your heros.

[Ed]

All getting a bit heavy...

There's a new Commission for Integration. Yet more £££ down the drain and more PC ********.

When will the government learn that people might not want to be integrated. Forcing people together is not conducive to integration, IMHO. By all means educate, but forcing the issue is a non-starter. Imposing unifomity is simply not going to work.

[timwilky]

All getting a bit heavy...

There's a new Commission for Integration. Yet more £££ down the drain and more PC ********.

When will the government learn that people might not want to be integrated. Forcing people together is not conducive to integration, IMHO. By all means educate, but forcing the issue is a non-starter. Imposing unifomity is simply not going to work.

Integration is a big issue. I have a number of muslim friends who are extreamly well educated, PHDs, MBA, etc and they live well. earn well and whilst devote, are dismissive of extreamism as "Fundementalists". I then contrast this with certain parts of Blackburn that in the dark ages. The population is predominately asian, white parents will not use the local schools as they children would be a minoritiy. Bigotry in some areas is rife.

My own village, Whilst quite large, I only know of one asian family who run the local news agents shop and 2 asian doctors. I only know of 1 "black" guy in the village.

This lack of integration leads to racism as neither community understands the other. My brothers Father in law is originally from St Vincent. He has always been known as "Black Jack" he is not offended in any way by this. Yet the look on some peoples face when we break the PC tabboo by shouting over a growed pub, such things as "a pint for black jack" and the whispers of you can't say that.

PC ******** indeed.

[Jabba]

By all means educate, but forcing the issue is a non-starter. Imposing unifomity is simply not going to work.

Quite right.

The problems of the world are not race or colour issues........they stem from religeon.

Are not evangelical Christians doing exactly the same thing as those of other faiths who try to convert others, most of whom don't wish to be converted?

It should be possible to acknowledge our differences, celebrate them even, and still live in a peaceful and diverse society.

[Biker Biggles]

"Black Jack"---Nice one.
The frightening thing is I would lose my job for saying that at work.
We've let the lunatics run the asylum for too long and a return to a bit of common sense is needed.Anyone remember common sense?

[UlsterSV]

Lyn, haven't you ever thought to question any of that?

"He who controls the Present, controls the Past; he who controls the Past controls the Future.""

So are you now going to suggest that it really is a holohoax? That it didnt happen? That the allies made up all the images, all the documentary evidence, they built the camps AFTER the war, and murdered millions and blamed it on the Nazis to "villify" them?

The Germans themselves dont deny they did these things. The Allies had no need to create any propaganda. The images, survivors and other records speak for themselves. I think the majority of us look at those images and come to the same conclusion WITHOUT having to be told what we should think by a government.

And even if you suggest its one sided and there were good points to the Nazis, NO amount of good can EVER atone for or justify the sheer evilness they carried out to genocide millions of people.

:?

I'll take the answer to my question as "no" then. So how can you believe with such conviction what you have been told is right, when you've never bothered to look at any other evidence other than what is officially recognised as "the truth"? You also seem to value quantity over quality. It's very easy to be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information. But then, to overwhlem the people is the very nature of propaganda.

Anyway as for integration, good luck to them trying to force that on the good people of Ulster. Attacks on immigrants here happen practically every single day. I doubt you hear about any of them. The media is very careful not to let others in Britain know some people actually fight for what they believe in. Not if they're white, anyway. No-one I know wants immigrants here. The sheeple are the sheeple and do as they're told. The most active people by far are those who oppose immigration here. You'd think that with such strong opposition to newcomers the government might decide to consult with the people and perhaps even have a vote? Like they should have done fifty years ago with the mainland? This is the true nature of democracy, is it not?

[lynw]

I'll take the answer to my question as "no" then. So how can you believe with such conviction what you have been told is right, when you've never bothered to look at any other evidence other than what is officially recognised as "the truth"? You also seem to value quantity over quality. It's very easy to be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information. But then, to overwhlem the people is the very nature of propaganda.

How can I believe? The fact my Grandfather was part of the liberating troops and told me about what he saw with his own eyes. The photos that abound in their many thousands dont lie, no matter how much some people desperately want them to be lies and propaganda.

You say propaganda overwhelms the people. Personally, I say people who chose to ignore the evidence and pretend its lies and propaganda are bigots who simply do not want to see the truth because the truth conflicts with their viewpoint.

Most people accept as fact the Nazis committed genocide on an unprecedented scale. We dont need our governments to tell us that - we have the freedom to talk with our relatives who were there [or we did have in our childhood in my case]. We have the freedom to go to Germany and visit the camps and see how the Germans have turned them into memorials.

In further response to your "propaganda" suggestion, perhaps people see it as so because there has never been any release of German held documents, so all the information in the public domain and documented are from people suggested to have hidden agendas to "villify" the Nazis.

However, those people holding that view or any form of holocaust revisionism wont like whats coming or going to be released into the public domain. I quote:

Until recently, Germany refused to allow access to massive Holocaust-related archives located in Bad Arolsen due to, among other factors, privacy concerns. However, in May 2006 a 20-year effort by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum led to the announcement that 30-50 million pages would be made accessible to historians and survivors

From: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8633EA3D-1AC2-41DF-9B7B-D2C385B1E10F.htm

Note this is from AlJazeera, hardly a pro-Israeli news site so I dont see how anyone can accuse them of promoting Israeli propaganda on this one. :?

Genocide is wrong no matter who does it. Just because I dont see the Nazis as shiny happy people does not mean that I do not condemn the camps and torture that Israel carries out on the palestinians.

[UlsterSV]

17 million? Hang on, are they now going to try to tells us 17 million people were exterminated?

Let's not be so naive about these documents. If official documents existed that helped prove the holocaust happened, there is no way in hell they'd have been kept quiet this long. In fact they'd have probably been paraded in the streets as soon as they were found! They would have been used at the Nuremburg show trials for a start. At least then the Allies wouldn't have had to sentence men to death on a pack of lies. Or they would have been used to shut up the holocaust revisionists instead of jailing them like they usually do. And if you think these documents are the genuine untouched real deal, you're even more naive. Funny how the link talks about survivors. Hell of alot of them knocking about. 6 million in 1919 then another 6 million just twenty years later? That's one hell of a rate of reproduction. And they say the Catholics are bad.

With the amount of information available to us now, there's no excuse for us not to question what we're told.

[lynw]

With the amount of information available to us now, there's no excuse for us not to question what we're told.

Theres a huge difference between questioning what we're told and dismissing the genocide of millions of people as "propaganda" and lies. To dismiss the holocaust as an "achievement" by the Jews and nothing more than "villification" of the Nazis and propaganda and lies is downright shameful imo. :evil:

This stops here on my part given it is simply a waste of energy to continue. We are in a circular argument neither is going to shift position on. There is simply no way I am ever going to accept sympathy for the Nazis and dismissal of the atrocities they committed as nothing but lies and propaganda. And youre not going to accept any evidence as anything other than a government attempt to "villify" the Nazis. :? :evil:

[UlsterSV]

Lyn, Germans don't govern Germany. That right was taken away from them sixty years ago, remember? Remember the big wall too? This is what you can't seem to grasp. Money makes the world go round. And who has all the money? Well I'll let you figure that one out. What you also can't seem to grasp is government agencies aren't as straight forward and honest as you might like them to be. They tend not to record their activities, you know? And they do sometimes act in the best interests of the state rather than the people.

Your arguments are kind of null and void. I've looked at both sides of the argument which allows me to form an informed and balanced opinion on the matter. But you on the other hand refuse to look at the other side of the argument. So how can you possibly hold an informed opinion? It's easy to call everyone else a Nazi or bigot from up there on your high horse. I know, I did the same. I was brought up on the exact same history you were. But it takes something else to climb down from one's high horse and see what all the fuss is about. Honestly, the first time I truly looked into the holocaust was so I could hit the deniers with great arguments and irrefutable evidence to prove them all wrong. Turned out I couldn't.

If you want a wee bit of a debate how about this: how come the six million figure was used first in 1919 and why we never hear about that particular holocaust? And how was a 1943 edition of America's Readers Digest able to say 6 million would die? This was a whole two years before the end of the war.

I'd also like you to quote my pro Nazi comments.

[Razor]

The numbers don't matter, even if only a few hundred were in the camps and exterminated it was a few hundred too many.

Why do the people with the pro nazi opinions bang on about it more than NORMAL people?

[Ed]

I have to say that there are some comments on here which have truly shocked me.

Suffice to say that I prefer the more established view of history.

[fizzwheel]

Locked as per requests

Fizz