View Full Version : Friendly Advice
Duck-man
25-09-06, 03:54 PM
Hey All,
Ok first I have only been out on my bike 4-5 times and only 2-3 on longish runs so I know I am no expert but I was wondering..
Over the weekend I was out with my mates on our bikes we went a good distance. Now my mates wife is on a CBR 400 & She has been biking for maybe 2-3yrs and she has dropped/crashed a bike on her DAS at a junction at about 10-15mph. She was fine just a bruised ego really.
The problem is she has absolutley no trust in her tyres and does not like corners in the slightest. Not a big problem really but she (in my little experience as a biker) drives dangerously slowly. Going along straights and slowing right down for corners (my mate on his "L" plated 125 commented on how slow she was)
I understand we all have our limits and we need to ride within them so that we dont push to hard and (god forbid) end up in a ditch but I wouldnt mind at least trying to give her some advice or point her in the right direction as to improving her riding. She has mentioned getting a bike com so we can try and tell her what we do into corners, but it hasnt happened yet.
Now I (like i said) havent been biking long at all but I would like to help her or at least give her some advice.
I have mentioned an "extra" course to help i.e. track day or more tution but I dont think she took it very well :roll:
Anyone got any words of wisdom about cornering, and how to get her to maybe trust her tyres and the bike more?
cheers guys
What tyres is she on now and what condition are they in?
Personally, I wouldnt go down the route of an intercom as it will be another thing for her to concentrate on and could take her mind off the job in hand, i.e. cornering.
I think its one of those things that you just have to keep trying and gain experience on. It might be a good idea for her to follwo someone who is goo din the corners and get her to watch what they do and note things like body position, braking points (if needed), lean angle for the corner etc etc. but I'd say its more of a practice makes perfect scenario.
northwind
25-09-06, 04:09 PM
I reckon one of the best ways round a loss of trust is a random change. Sort of like in Days of Thunder :) "Special tyres, Cole!" A mate of mine binned his CBR, and couldn't get back into the swing of it when he got back on- especially braking. So, he put a new set of tyres on, and switched from Diablos to Sportecs. Nothing at all wrong with the old ones, and the Sportecs and Diablos are very similiar in performance, but it meant he wasn't always thinking "These tyres let me crash".
It doesn't really need to make any difference at all- it's all psychological after all. Riding another bike, or having someone else ride hers, could help maybe? Or, if there's one thing that gets the blame for the crash, work on that. Wee bit of a play with the suspension, doesn't haev to feel better, just different. Then after a bit, put it back to normal.
Sounds to me like she genuinely NEEDS a little extra tuition to help her sort out that mental block. What won't help is her pride getting in the way. I don't know how long ago it was you spoke to her about it but maybe she just needs a bit of time to think it through for herself and hopefully come to the right decision.
Failing that track days are great for sorting out cornering and pride can't get in the way there because track days are kewl. :D
"Special tyres, Cole!"
Just 8) as feck!
Oh, and good suggestion too!
I went through something similar when I had my SV - the tyres were pretty squared off and it completely killed my confidence in the bike. I would suggest getting her to change her tyres too. I switched to diablo strada's and it was amazing what a difference they made!
Also, has the bike been lowered at all? The reason I ask is if its been lowered a lot its going to handle crap around corners.
get someone to get on her bike and show her how fast it can corner,
the CBR400 is one of the best handling bikes in my opinion.
Sounds to me like she genuinely NEEDS a little extra tuition
My thoights entirely.
Start with Bikesafe and the coppers will soon put her right :thumbsup:
philipMac
25-09-06, 09:17 PM
Some tyres can sort of end up with, (or start off with) a V profile more than a rounded one.
If they are V'd off, then, the bike will sort of lean over, and then fall away a bit. Its scares she **** out of you when you arent used to it. (And sort of when you are too actually.) But, they are sort of just bedding into the road. It feels like its getting away from you, but, in fact you can keep rolling on. (Acutualy, even if it is getting away from you you should keep rolling on gently anyway.)
So, again, like Northy was saying, maybe throw on a new set of tyres, even if they are in decent nick, Conti-road attacks or something, scrub them in, and then see how that feels.
Again though... experience and familiarity with raod surfaces is key. I will lean my bike over when I know the roads, but when I am iffy about them, and you hit some chattery stuff half way through, it will be back to square one again. :(
fizzwheel
25-09-06, 09:45 PM
I've been having a period of this, I struggle in the wet again after having slippy slidey moments. The GSXR had BT014's on it when I bought it and I really didnt get on with them, In fact I f*cking hated them. Changed to a Pilot Powers and now gradually my confidence in the wet is coming back. I've literally been talking to myself when I'm riding and talking myself through the corners and giving myself some self belief, It sounds odd but it really does work.
As others have said, get the tyres changed. No point having tyres on a bike if they rob you of confidence / enjoyjment, if the tyres on the bike at the moment are in good nick still, dont let the tyre fitter dispose of them, keep them and stick them on ebay, you'd be surprised what people will buy that way your mate will get some cash back for them to go towards to the price of new tyres.
As the others have said more training might be a good idea, or maybe just a bikesafe... Be careful how you approach this, if she thinks theres nothing wrong with her riding then all you'll do is offend her, if she thinks there is already a problem you might knock her confidence even more.
I found before that people wont accept help until they are ready for it, if you try to help before they want it you'll end up falling out.
Riding in a big group when you dont have a lot of confidence isnt good either, 1 or 2 riders is probably enough.
A couple of tips for your mate...
1. Dont look at the floor look through the corner at where you want to go. Where you look the bike will follow.
2. Get braking done in a straight line, brake and change down to a gear that will let hold a constant / neutral throttle and then gently roll on the throttle once the apex has been reached and you can see the road opening out.
3. Speed, try and get her to slow down, I know this sounds odd but coming up to a corner and the grabbing the brakes and having the bike all unsettled on the suspension wont allow the suspension to do its job, which robs the rider of feel for what the bike is doing. Try braking earlier and more gently, once you've got your speed right for the corner you shouldnt need to brake again once you are in the corner.
This is pretty basic stuff, but after talking with Viney I had a chat with Liz about her riding after she asked for help after crossing a white line when we were out one day and nearly riding into a 4 x 4, we talked about the 3 things I've mentioned above and it really helped her riding, concentrate on one thing at a time and don't try to do to much in one go otherwise it just gets confusing.
HTH
I'm_a_Newbie
25-09-06, 09:46 PM
Hi.
I also lack some confidence when cornering. When I first got my SV in February I was very slow in corners too. With time my confidence grew. Now I am a lot faster but still err on the side of caution, you only have 1 life and I'm not ready to end it yet. The things that have made the biggest difference to my confidence have been reading about active counter steering, (might have been in Bike mag or MCN can't remember which) and putting it into practise and also increasing the pre-load on the front forks.
Active counter steering really lets you chuck the bike around with ease without using you body weight. Try it, you'll like it :P
Kind regards
Tim
as always the fizzmeister is talking sense ,can i just add going round in a lower gear helps (eg 3rd@7000 revs is better for bike control than top@4000revs)and tuition is a must (track day maybe)just to illustrate that you dont always crash when cornering and just to build up her confidence .does she 'counter-steer'?makes a helluva diff to my riding :wink:
Duck-man
26-09-06, 08:29 AM
Cheers guys! :D
She is using Dunlop tyres (dont know the sizes) and what I can gather from reading about tyres on here and reviews Dunlops are not the best for grip (There are a few folk who like them but the general opinion is there is better tyres out there)
I dont want to fall out with her so i am trying to be careful as to what i say.
Cheers for the tips I will see how it goes and try and "mention" a few things to her
:D
Stumorrison
26-09-06, 08:30 AM
I was a bit like this doing my DAS, found it to be a bit of a vicious circle, if you dont have enough speed the bike wont naturally lean, if the bike doesent naturally lean, it can struggle to get around the corner, if you havent got the confidence you wont lean the bike. Also the slower I was going for corners I found I was more likely to look down and not ahead.
I am very new to riding so this is only what ive found for me, confidence is the biggest thing
MY better half had all manner of issues with her tyres. She had a Macadam on the rear and a pilot sport on the front and a very strange combination it was. She swapped over to Z6's and her confidence in her tyres/bike improved 10 fold. However, she still has issues with her observation (Shes going to kill me for this) She doesnt pick her head up, or look through the corner etc, even though she knows all the theory. I think she rides well and is not crap as she thinks she is.
Im trying to get her to do a Bikesafe course, ahich i also think your firnd should do. Its not Extra training, but something that we should ALL do, me included, but im pig headed and stubborn and a riding god ;)
I went through something similar when I had my SV - the tyres were pretty squared off and it completely killed my confidence in the bike. I would suggest getting her to change her tyres too. I switched to diablo strada's and it was amazing what a difference they made!
Also, has the bike been lowered at all? The reason I ask is if its been lowered a lot its going to handle crap around corners.
This is where I am at the moment, getting some new tyres tommorow, hopefully that will sort it out, otherwise its cornering skills for me
I think that counter steering and smooth riding is the key. With smooth riding I'm implying gradual braking and not being agressive. Don't point and shoot riding. That's actually slow. Better keep a constant speed at which she's happy at, even if it's slowish, and consentrate on enjoying the ride rather than thinking all the time what she should do. Just understand countersteering, look way ahead to where you want to go and simply enjoy the ride. Every time you'll go out you'll be gaining more experience. Some learn quick some slow. But with perseverance and good sense everybody gets there.
northwind
26-09-06, 08:40 PM
This is where I am at the moment, getting some new tyres tommorow, hopefully that will sort it out, otherwise its cornering skills for me
You rode round one of the most technically challenging roads in the country on saturday, you realise? :)
fizzwheel
26-09-06, 09:15 PM
I wouldnt recommend counter steering to somebody who is new to riding or is having confidence problems, it is IMHO only going to confuse the hell out of them.
Best to concentrate on the basics IMHO...
philipMac
26-09-06, 09:21 PM
I wouldnt recommend counter steering to somebody who is new to riding or is having confidence problems, it is IMHO only going to confuse the hell out of them.
Best to concentrate on the basics IMHO...
I kind of dont agree. I think its natural, and there is no point in learning anything else.
Drive in a straight line. Push handle bars in any direction. Bike dips in that direction. Let go, bike levels off.
Counter Steering. The end.
I mean, that's it. It cant not work. There isnt anything more to it. *Shrug*. (Just my opinion mind.)
fizzwheel
26-09-06, 09:26 PM
I know what you mean its just that when I started riding, my brother tried to get me to understand counter steering it confused me, I concentrated to much on actively countersteering the bike and I lost my focus on speed, gear, road positioning etc etc. I think that as a new rider or somebody lacking in confidence, IMHO you'd get more benefit from concentrating on just the basics and then once you have those mastered then begin to look at active countersteering.
Its IMHO a difficult thing to explain to somebody. Like you say you do it anyway, all you do buy actively doing it is exagerate the effect.
philipMac
26-09-06, 09:36 PM
Yeah. I suppose.
I suppose it depends on tons of factors.
I used to be a white water kayak instructor. I remember one time sitting on the edge of a swimming pool, and explaining to a guy how to roll a boat. He had never been sealed into a boat before.
Now, when you capsize a boat when you are new, you panic. And you forget everything you have been told. And you bail. Then you get over the panic, and your technuque is off. Then you get the knack, and you can do it most of the time. (Finally when you are super cool like me, you can do it with your hands, both sides. 8) ha ha ha. The chix love it. )
But this one guy just did it. Bang, straight up, first time. I stood there amazed. He said it just felt right. I dunno. I mean, my point is, yeah, maybe the person will be all thinking too much, and not able to counter steer properly. Maybe they will.
Personally, I found countersteering to be one of the easiest things about corners. Lines, throttle control, speed and leaning were all tricky. But, counter steering... just felt right.
fizzwheel
26-09-06, 09:49 PM
But, counter steering... just felt right.
Once I got my head round it, I realised I was doing it already it was OK. You're right it does feel right when you do it.
northwind
26-09-06, 11:25 PM
See, I just did it... I rationalised it all wrong, but when I explained it to my instructor he said "Yep, that's countersteering". I always thought of it as pushing down on the inside bar, but in fact when I thought I was pushing "down" I was pushing it forward too.
I think subconsciously contersteering and actively countersteering are different things, though. I've ridden a bike with locked bars (modified steerign damper for stunting) and while I could turn it, once I'd had the trick shown to me, I couldn't ride it to the shops. And you can't "bicycle steer" at speed.
As I said before you don't have to think to do things you just have to do them by instinct. But like in martial arts there is a time of learning, they call it kata. She is in that phase. Some stay in that phase for years. To say the truth most of us are/will still stay in it and only a few 'born racers' instinctly know all there is to know. My joy from riding is that from time to time I feel I'm doing something better than before, getting it almost perfect.
Relax. Another good point of advice is to tell her not to be rigid, her arms must be able to flap like a chicken. When you tense up you tend to go straight. So flap like a chicken :)
philipMac
27-09-06, 05:54 AM
Yes. Indeed.
Flap like a chicken.
Many chickens. Herds, of them. Flapping.
If a chicken flaps in a forest and no one can hear it, does it make a sound?
LOL Come to think of it my post does seem a bit corny. Not my intension though :)
Peter Henry
27-09-06, 08:27 AM
Just tipping the bike in at the right place will see a fair amount of "natural" counter steer" take place. Thus leaving the option for a degree of "conscious" application of more countersteer if you find that the bend is tighter than you thought or you have entered a bit quick.
Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
I can attest to this method as,(I am really not wishing to blow smoke out of my a+s here :wink: ) for the past 3 weekends I have ridden with a group of very quick riders. I had decided that I would ride with the pace and see if I still had the nerve and still felt in control.
I am fortunate to be able to report that I have been having just so much fun,riding very quick,(not IAM standard I am afraid :) ) my corner speed has increased markedly and when riding with others I am able to select different lines to them and find myself exiting corners much quicker than they can.
All in all I have relaxed a whole lot more and have not had such a buzz from riding for such a long time.
I simply get the speed scrubbed off, pick my lean point and throw her in. Eyes searching for the apex or looking through the bend then hit the gas again. It's fooking ace!
*Not sure if this is of any value but I do shift my weight quite a bit to the inside of any bend to be taken, every time.*
**And I still have never got my knee down!** :D
SVeeedy Gonzales
27-09-06, 09:04 AM
Get her to do an off-road day - all that sliding around (and probably a bit of relatively safe falling off - I fell off loads) is great, then when you feel your tyres let go on the road for a bit it feels less worrying.
It's not the tyres letting go that's the real problem, it's reacting badly by then changing something - brakes, steering, etc. that causes you to go down.
Maybe some advanced training for positioning would help too - then she wouldn't need to lean the bike over as much and that would give her more confidence.
3 thoughts
1) Check the tyres to see if they are squared off. The sudden jump as you tip over the corner makes you jump even though its not a real issue. As a relative newbie I speak from experience as my riding was screwed up for a month or so before I worked it out :oops:
2) I'm not sure that recomendaions for active couner steering are very helpfull given that we dealing with a nervous rider
3) Go for a really long ride in good weather. I believe that in this instance familuraity (sp) will breed confidence
iprideaux
27-09-06, 12:52 PM
1. Get her to check the tyre pressures and fix them if they're wrong.
2. Get her to check that the tyres are not squared off, if they are, then get them replaced.
3. Get her to scrub the tyres with washing up liquid solution and a scrubbing brush, to make sure that there's nothing slipery on there (rinse off with plenty of clean water afterwards).
4. Get her to check the chain adjustment.
I say get her to do it so that she's involved, and she's happy that it's done right. Be there to teach her, and show her what to look for, and to supply any needed muscle, and to reassure her that she has done it right, but get her to actually do the work. That way she'll get a feel for checking the bike over. BTW, don't take any nonsense about broken fingernails either, it's a girl thing, she'll just have to get over it.
stuartyboy
27-09-06, 01:00 PM
Take her up the Duke's Pass! :oops: She'll be too busy concentrating on the hairpins to worry about anything else and once she does that ANY normal bend will seem straight.
Seriously though...I was like that a few months ago. I was holding up cars, REALLY slow and afraid to tip the bike into bends. I went out on my first rideout and things fell into place although I was still slow compared the the guy I was with.
Get out and ride as often as possible.
One thing that may be hampering her is on rideouts - she may be feeling pressure to keep up. Why don't you guys slow the pace right down and be smooth. You'll be amazed at how smooth riding increases confidence and she probably wont notice the pace increasing.Also try to get her to follow your line.
The Limit point is a fantastic tool at your disposal as it teaches you to look through the corners. Follow the limit point with your throttle and it does wonders.
Get the Police Riders book.
Get her out on a rideout with the SV eccosse posse.
Loads of good advice all been said earlier.
Okay then, where's Duke's Pass?
Duck-man
27-09-06, 03:28 PM
I wonder that too but found it on multi map still havent been on the bike but did take a hire car through there (Vauxhall Astra SXI Effort! zoom)
A821 near Aberfoyle its nuts!!
(Would Up load a picture but it aint working??)
andyaikido
27-09-06, 03:37 PM
Yes. Indeed.
Flap like a chicken.
Many chickens. Herds, of them. Flapping.
If a chicken flaps in a forest and no one can hear it, does it make a sound?
Herds? Is that the right collective noun?
I can't think what it is. A gaggle? A coop? A squadron? :lol:
northwind
27-09-06, 05:31 PM
(Would Up load a picture but it aint working??)
Looks a bit like this from above:
http://www.proquipment.net/parts/images/rq3.jpg
But not too convenient in this case.
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