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View Full Version : Self incrimination (speed cameras) illegal?


Flamin_Squirrel
27-09-06, 09:47 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5383726.stm

Jabba
27-09-06, 11:16 AM
Personally, I've always thought the present system (which requires the driver of a vehicle to incriminate themself amd which fines them if they don't) to be contrary to every other UK law (innocent until proven guilty and all that) and also illegal as it is in direct contravention of human rights legislation.

Good luck to 'em :thumbsup:

454697819
27-09-06, 11:36 AM
or we could not speed....

thought for the day.... :lol:


and yes i do have 3 points :)

Captain Nemo
27-09-06, 11:40 AM
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9166

link to latest info, not sure if theyre expectin a result today or in a few weeks though

Flamin_Squirrel
27-09-06, 12:00 PM
or we could not speed....

thought for the day.... :lol:


and yes i do have 3 points :)

Well of course the governments ultimate desire will be to make everything a fine-able offence. So when they have total survailence of everything we do they can fine us every 5 minutes.

Demonz
27-09-06, 12:37 PM
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9166

link to latest info, not sure if theyre expectin a result today or in a few weeks though

...a few months according to the article.

Stingo
27-09-06, 01:14 PM
:-k Hmm, so, if this goes in the defendants favour, what effect, if any, do the members of the org think it will have on other videoed/photographed evidence?

"Right then young sir - we have footage of you helping yourself to the pick'n'mix and leaving the emporium without proper payment thereof blah blah".

Young sir - "No you haven't" or "I couldn't possibly identify that person as being...er...me".

:?:

Demonz
27-09-06, 01:44 PM
They can do what the French have done and just put in forward facing cameras to catch all those pesky speeders... :lol:

Jabba
27-09-06, 01:46 PM
:-k Hmm, so, if this goes in the defendants favour, what effect, if any, do the members of the org think it will have on other videoed/photographed evidence?

Effectively it will be "Bye-bye Gatso, hello Truvelo", i.e. the end of rear-facing speed cameras.

As bikers we should be pleased at this thought, but don't broadcast it too loudly, eh? :lol:

"Right then young sir - we have footage of you helping yourself to the pick'n'mix and leaving the emporium without proper payment thereof blah blah".

Young sir - "No you haven't" or "I couldn't possibly identify that person as being...er...me"

Presumed innocent until proven guilty....... it's up to the prosecution to demonstrate to the satidfaction of the Court that the person in the video and the person being prosecuted are one and the same.

Expect the wearing of hoodies to be banned in more shopping centres :wink:

northwind
27-09-06, 02:08 PM
Interesting isn't it... I remember all the talk that they'd switch to front-facing cameras to get around this, after the whole "can't be forced to incriminate your husband or wife" loophole came up.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it "Who was driving the car". If this appeal's succesful they'll just change the law to require the registered keeper to know who's driving their car. "Were you driving the car" "Don't know" "Well, who was?" "Don't know". "Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

Jabba
27-09-06, 02:31 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

454697819
27-09-06, 02:42 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

"so it was taken with out the owners concent.. so are you saying your car was twocked sir... thats a very serious offence if your lying and ill fine you for that.. say £60 and 3 points?"

northwind
27-09-06, 02:47 PM
When did you report the vehicle stolen, sir? You keep the keys in your possession? I presume you do lock it, sir? Where was the damage repaired? Have receipts for that? etc

But I take your point. We're going from "innocent till proven" to "innocent till probably guilty". It's not so much having to say "Yes, I'm guilty", it's not being allowed to say "I don't know".

Jabba
27-09-06, 02:51 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

"so it was taken with out the owners concent.. so are you saying your car was twocked sir... thats a very serious offence if your lying and ill fine you for that.. say £60 and 3 points?"

"I have given my wife, my sons, their girlfriends, my brothers, their wives and offspring and members of SV650.org permission to use my car when it's not in use....... could have been anyone of them. I leave the car unlocked and the keys on top of the sun-visor and anyone that I've given permission will know this.

It's not a crime to leave your car unlocked in this way. Over to you, Officer."

Baph
27-09-06, 03:06 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

"so it was taken with out the owners concent.. so are you saying your car was twocked sir... thats a very serious offence if your lying and ill fine you for that.. say £60 and 3 points?"

"I have given my wife, my sons, their girlfriends, my brothers, their wives and offspring and members of SV650.org permission to use my car when it's not in use....... could have been anyone of them. I leave the car unlocked and the keys on top of the sun-visor and anyone that I've given permission will know this.

It's not a crime to leave your car unlocked in this way. Over to you, Officer."

"Ah, but that will invalidate your comprehensive insurance sir, have you driven your vehicle recently, or has anyone driven under your policy? If so, we'll do you for driving without insurance"

Flamin_Squirrel
27-09-06, 03:08 PM
But I take your point. We're going from "innocent till proven" to "innocent till probably guilty". It's not so much having to say "Yes, I'm guilty", it's not being allowed to say "I don't know".

Isn't that way in civil courts anyway? Innocent until the balance of probably says you're guilty?

Jabba
27-09-06, 03:10 PM
Isn't that way in civil courts anyway? Innocent until the balance of probably says you're guilty?

Yes it is, but this is subject to criminal (rather than civil) law and the "beyond reasonable doubt" test.

Jabba
27-09-06, 03:12 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

"so it was taken with out the owners concent.. so are you saying your car was twocked sir... thats a very serious offence if your lying and ill fine you for that.. say £60 and 3 points?"

"I have given my wife, my sons, their girlfriends, my brothers, their wives and offspring and members of SV650.org permission to use my car when it's not in use....... could have been anyone of them. I leave the car unlocked and the keys on top of the sun-visor and anyone that I've given permission will know this.

It's not a crime to leave your car unlocked in this way. Over to you, Officer."

"Ah, but that will invalidate your comprehensive insurance sir, have you driven your vehicle recently, or has anyone driven under your policy? If so, we'll do you for driving without insurance"

"I've made it clear that, other than for my wife who's covered on my policy, anyone who drives my car is responsible for their own insurance. If you find out who drove it then you can check that they were insured directly with them, Officer."

Daimo
27-09-06, 03:14 PM
"Fine, can't do you for speeding, we'll do you for not knowing who was driving".

"It was borrowed without my knowledge and subsequently returned by person or persons unknown, Officer." :wink:

"so it was taken with out the owners concent.. so are you saying your car was twocked sir... thats a very serious offence if your lying and ill fine you for that.. say £60 and 3 points?"

"I have given my wife, my sons, their girlfriends, my brothers, their wives and offspring and members of SV650.org permission to use my car when it's not in use....... could have been anyone of them. I leave the car unlocked and the keys on top of the sun-visor and anyone that I've given permission will know this.

It's not a crime to leave your car unlocked in this way. Over to you, Officer."

"Ah, but that will invalidate your comprehensive insurance sir, have you driven your vehicle recently, or has anyone driven under your policy? If so, we'll do you for driving without insurance"

My car is left unlocked in a locked garage????
Keys were in my house, of which I have frequent friends visit. Anyone could have borrow the car whilst i was out at work ;)

Daimo
27-09-06, 03:19 PM
Also, the Truvalo camera, should I fear them being front facing.

They've just introduced the camera on a stretch of road I use every day. Its scheduled for the next 1.5 years.

Along the "tight" section (turning 3 lanes into 1.5 lanes) i will stick to the limits, its unsafe and un-fair on the workman (hey, they chose that career, but thats another debate ;) ), but after this, the roadworks stop, but the cameras go on for another mile or two after??? I can see work being done on this part at a later date, but they've got a lot of other work to do first.

I travel up to "cough" motorway speeds again as its perfectly safe, no workman, no equipment, just a few cones on the grass. Oh, and the speed cameras....... At these camera points, i like to do a "fuel tank" check where i look down at my fuel tank, eerrr, to check its still there.

Should I be concerned (daily use)?

Please be aware that all this may be false and can in no way be used against me in a court of law, as i may just be writing all this in a fictional way :wink:

Jabba
27-09-06, 03:22 PM
Also, the Truvalo camera, should I fear them being front facing.

No, unless you have your bike's registration number embroidered into your jacket..........

Daimo
27-09-06, 03:38 PM
I just meant in terms of "someone" viewing the camera pictures and seeing this bike go past every day........ I know im safe with the actual plates as its on the back :)

Luckypants
27-09-06, 03:58 PM
If you are taking the mick then the boys in blue have been known to put a patrol car in to catch 'habitual speeders'

Stu
27-09-06, 08:00 PM
At these camera points, i like to do a "fuel tank" check where i look down at my fuel tank, eerrr, to check its still there.

Should I be concerned (daily use)?
Do you have an open faced helmet? :shock:

I would assume they would leave it to an ANPR machine to match the same registration at different camera points too soon (i.e. average speed must be over limit) if the ANPR doesn't recognise a number plate (e.g. someone on a bike) it can't process the information that a same, or another, biker passes another camera sometime later. Therefore no alarm is raised to even send out a cop car.

Am I right?

mpaton2006
27-09-06, 10:00 PM
Please be aware that all this may be false and can in no way be used against me in a court of law, as i may just be writing all this in a fictional way :wink:

Funnily enough, it can be used against you, so be careful.

northwind
27-09-06, 10:08 PM
The precedent for that's bad. It's like someone who retracts a confession- doesn't automatically invalidate the confession, but you know they're lying one way or another so you can't trust either answer.

Marshall
28-09-06, 08:13 AM
Also, the Truvalo camera, should I fear them being front facing.

No, unless you have your bike's registration number embroidered into your jacket..........

There is now talk of putting cameras in the back of Truvalo cameras aswell, purposley to take a pic of motorbikes number plates. one shot of you speeding, one shot of your plate