View Full Version : More PC-gone-wrong world antics
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/10/06/uk.straw/index.html
My personal take on this is that Mr Straw (for all his sins) was asking people to remove veils, and no-one he asked refused, got upset, shouted, threatened to kill him, anything. Everyone was civil about things, and just got on with life.
He makes a public statement about it, and openly says there's nothing really wrong with it (no laws broken), but it just makes him uncomfortable doing what he does. All of a sudden, everyone crawls out the woodwork to demand (seemingly) an apology or resignation.
Back stabbing b****s, those in office aint they?
Ah, but its the same as being asked to remove your lid when paying for petrol, and theres a fair few on here that refuse.
Personaly i dont see anything wrong with asking. if they oblige then fine, if they dont, agin fine. Its going to be the Muslim community jumping up and down again, and then they wonder why Racism exists. If they just blended in the community along with all he other Minorites (I hate that word, but cant hink of better at this time) then im sure Racisim would deminish over time :?
I can see why he'd ask; there's more to communication than just the words coming out of a mouth. The eyes (okay, he can see those!) and facial expressions of a person can convey meaning and and give some context to the words.
It's like the emoticons on here.......some posts would seem rude and offensive with out them.
As long as the request is made politely (I'm sure that Mr Straw would do that) then there shouldn't be an issue. It's the person's perrogtive to decline, hopefully politely, too.
I do not understand the big deal that's being made, but I'm very cynical about the timing - straight after the Tory party conference and it's got them off the front pages.
Terence
06-10-06, 01:02 PM
Perhaps Mr Straw hasn't considered that asking a devout muslim lady to remove her veil is as offensive as asking a western woman to take off her shirt and bra before talking to him.
No one so far seems to be seeing it from their point of view. Whether you agree that the veil is "good" or not makes no difference.
Terence
PS: I am lobbying the EU parliament to introduce the second example as legislation
Perhaps Mr Straw hasn't considered that asking a devout muslim lady to remove her veil is as offensive as asking a western woman to take off her shirt and bra before talking to him.
In case you missed it...
Mr Straw (for all his sins) was asking people to remove veils, and no-one he asked refused, got upset, shouted, threatened to kill him, anything. Everyone was civil about things, and just got on with life.
He did ask, no-one complained, everyone removed veils.
My issue is with the political storm over his comments about it afterwards.
My issue is with the political storm over his comments about it afterwards.
Kicked up by the Labour Party and newspapers sympathetic to it. Probably :wink:
Terence
06-10-06, 01:16 PM
My issue is with the political storm over his comments about it afterwards.
Point taken. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the people who do the loudest complaining are muslim men.
I don't see what the problem is......yes, people have the right to wear what they want but does that mean I should be able to go in to a bank or near parliament wearing a balaclava?
It's a matter of respect for the country and culture that you're in. When Western women go to Saudi Arabia they have to cover up their legs and cleavage.
It's not an issue of racism (which I despise) or freedom to wear what you want....just like Jack Straw said, it's about integration.
the_runt69
06-10-06, 11:56 PM
Read the article about a muslim Police officer(dipolmatic protect branch) being taken off dutty if he had to stand guard at the Jews(sorry cant spell the right word) embassy. Sorry the police should be there to protect everybody what ever their faith. If the police can be be slated for being insitutionally racist agaist anybody. This PC is making a mockery of being a multicultry(??) country.
H
Read the article about a muslim Police officer(dipolmatic protect branch) being taken off dutty if he had to stand guard at the Jews(sorry cant spell the right word) embassy. Sorry the police should be there to protect everybody what ever their faith. If the police can be be slated for being insitutionally racist agaist anybody. This PC is making a mockery of being a multicultry(??) country.
H
From what I read he was affaid of what would happen to family members if pic's were taken of him working there
Personally, I agree with Jack. And he if asked me to remove my skirt and bra politley and with a valid reason, I would probably politely decline :!:
Mr Straw is mearly expressing an opinion, and the muslim people that bbc breakfast managed to interview (granted that may not be a fair representation) were just focused on being outraged and insulted,
Most ignored the fact that it was a request. The head of the Muslim council got extremly angry (for breakfast tv) and said that women are supposed to cover themselves and man should be lowering their eyes. Since when has any non - muslim in their own non - muslim country been expected to follow this???
I suspect this has more to do with Jack Straw trying to raise his political profile before any leadership / deputy leadership contest within the Labour Party. :roll:
As far as I'm concerned everyone should be free to wear what they like, be that hijab or hoodies.
trivial issue blown out of all proportion by the media stirring up Muslims, who play to the gallery anyway, and then the conservative media can have a beanfeast on how unreasonable Muslims are being, and so it goes on and on and on.
I like Jack Straw, I think he's one of the best of the current bunch. I think he's one of the very few with integrity, he'd make a good PM. Didn't need to create a stir to get attention.
Alpinestarhero
07-10-06, 09:14 AM
I'm gonna offer my opinion with this, and its in agreement with Mr Straw. Now, i wholly respect a persons desicion to follow whatever faith, cult, etc etc. Who am I to judge when i put all my faith in science?
However, some religious tradtitions, such as the wearing of veils to cover ones face almost 100%, does make it very hard to communicate. I, as do other humans, rely on a combination of visual and audio stimuli to help asses the correct response to a comment or question. I feel uneasy trying to have a conversation with someone when i cant see their face - this dosnt just go for people wearing veils, but motorcyclists wearing full-face helmets, when people have their back turned to me, when the light is too dark. Its simply much easier to communicate when I can have facial expressions to match the words coming from ones mouth.
(incidently, when i have to say more than 5 words to someone when wearing my helmet, i will remove it for that persons benefit of communication)
Now, the university I go to is, mostly, full of students following the islamic / muslim faith. Most of the girls do not cover up - of those that do, the majority just cover their hair, which means we can all see their faces. This is ok, its easy to see someones expressions.
There are a few students who wear full veils, and (i feel really bad about saying this) i would feel uncomfortable having a conversation, since i cannot tell when they are making a joke, or if they are taking my jokes as a joke or whatever. Im not gonna say "please, remove your veil" but i do feel like i shouldnt talk to them for fear of offending by saying something, not being able to see it was offensive in the expressions of the face, and carrying on! (this is something i fear with all people, i hate to make enemies!).
And, also, fighting for my girlfreinds right to good communication (she;s deaf!) veils hide the mouths, which means she cannot lip read (her hearing aids are only so good). So she would have to request they remove their veil to see their mouths. I understand this would be possible, since muslim women only cover up in the presence of men, but i doubt that the person would be inclinde to reveal their face. My girlfreind does have a slight worry of a full-veiled girl asking her a question, as she wont understand - she dosnt want to make enemies either.
And yea, on the BBC breakfast programme y'day, the woman was just stirring it up, seeing it as something more than an opinion or a request. She was stupid, and just there to cause trouble it seems.
Ok, i'll shut up now.
Matt
gettin2dizzy
07-10-06, 12:31 PM
The world has gone mad!! hehe. Regarding removing lids at petrol stations- thats just for security reasons.
Any culture that makes women feel like second class citizens are bull5hit! There was a beautiful church in manchester - huge spires and stained glass windows - that was knocked down to make an islamic academy. No way would you have got planning permission if you wanted a block of flats. But imagine how un-pc it would be to refuse to knock down a christian building to build an islamic one. It would have made amazing headlines! considering 3% of the population is islamic - there must be alot of them that are lawyers!!
-i hope that didn't come across a bit racist - (but maybe thats the pc again - making people feel racist for expressing their views?!)
Alpinestarhero
07-10-06, 02:50 PM
dizzy - your not wrong, there is something a tad wrong about it all.
And someone else said (sorry, forgot, you know who u are) that when we go abroad to differant cultures, we abide by the rules of that place (i.e. covering up etc), yet those rules are not followed or those customs are not followed when people come to this country.
Still, thats the english for ya - we're a bunch of door-mats!
Matt
There was a beautiful church in manchester - huge spires and stained glass windows - that was knocked down to make an islamic academy. No way would you have got planning permission if you wanted a block of flats.
That may make a nice soundbite, but it's based on nothing other than a prejudice assumption.
I could point out to you two beautiful church buildings that have been demolished to make way for residential properties in the Borders within the last few months. In both cases the existing churches were fantastic examples and it's a mystery to me why they were allowed to be demolished.
Should I assume the owners of the new properties are muslim? :? :roll:
And someone else said (sorry, forgot, you know who u are) that when we go abroad to differant cultures, we abide by the rules of that place (i.e. covering up etc), yet those rules are not followed or those customs are not followed when people come to this country.
Hardly. Let's not forget the way in which tens of thousands of tourists who show total disregard for the cultures and customs of countries they visit. Most notable in Spanish / Greek resorts, but far from restricted to these places. Not everyone granted, but kid yourself not.
I was expecting this thread to be a rant over shoddy service at a naff, high st computer retailer. Imagine my surprise etc.....
I was expecting this thread to be a rant over shoddy service at a naff, high st computer retailer. Imagine my surprise etc.....
Me too :)
I have to say that of the current goverment party there were only ever three that I thought had an ounce of decency in them. Straw, Cook and Mowlam.
I agree with what he is saying 100%. As many have put it it was a request, not an order. Listening to the Muslim woman on 5 Live the day the comments came out astounded me. Saying that Muslim women are likely to have low self confidence / esteem and be very sub-serviant and saying the only reason ony of them would agree to remove the head dresses is that they were worried he would refuse to help / do anything if they refused to comply with him.
She also made another gaff in her rant. Straw specifically satted in the recorded interview that when it's strangers talking we view facial expressions as very important. She answered that she knew many people who wear the full burka (sp?) and once you get to know them they are wonderful people. Surely once you've gotten to know them they are no longer strangers - basically saying that what Jack has said is true.
I went to a mainly musim college and I have to say that I got on with most of the muslims there. I';ve also worked with quite a few and have never had a problem. It's just sad that the only muslims people who have not mixed with the muslim population get to hear are the loudmouths that just want to say how nasty we are in the west towards mulims. If they got to hear the others nmaybe the world would be in a better place...
northwind
07-10-06, 06:01 PM
Ah, but its the same as being asked to remove your lid when paying for petrol, and theres a fair few on here that refuse.
:smt038
I've got no problem with Jack Straw's personal position- ask politely, the person you're speaking to has the right to refuse, and that's fine. But there's a lot more to his comments than that. I think he's lost the line between integration and homologation- you can be part of Britain as long as you're not different, would be the message I'd take from it.
A lot of people get worked up over the veil, burqa etc, talking about second class citizens, women's oppression etc. But though that's often the case, often it's the woman's own choice.
Alpinestarhero
07-10-06, 07:37 PM
And someone else said (sorry, forgot, you know who u are) that when we go abroad to differant cultures, we abide by the rules of that place (i.e. covering up etc), yet those rules are not followed or those customs are not followed when people come to this country.
Hardly. Let's not forget the way in which tens of thousands of tourists who show total disregard for the cultures and customs of countries they visit. Most notable in Spanish / Greek resorts, but far from restricted to these places. Not everyone granted, but kid yourself not.
Lol, ok, fair enough. But I try to abide by the rules of other places when i go abroad at least!
Matt
UlsterSV
08-10-06, 06:39 PM
It's the ID cards I'm worried about :?
http://upload4.postimage.org/1339774/MUSLIMID.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/1339774/photo_hosting.html)
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