View Full Version : Pulled Over, WHY ?
:plod: pulled me yesterday. :cry:
I have a Flip top helmet and was in a queue of traffic in bristol and had the flip up. Was flagged over to the side of the road by a copper (police constable) and told i was breaking the law (he thinks??) by having the flip lid up!! :shock:
I asked what is the difference of having the flip up compared to the visor. He could not answer. :?
What do you guys think. and does anyone know the rules?
valleyboy
13-10-06, 08:25 PM
I dont think it is breaking the law, otherwise open face helmets would then be illegal.... as thats all having the flip part up does.... I think its the top of your head that has to be protected.. someone who knows better will be along..... I hope! :lol:
You were still wearing the helmet, so how can you have been breaking the law?
Anyway it's a £30 no points fine for NOT wearing a helmet.
fizzwheel
13-10-06, 08:41 PM
I've seen police motorcycle riders, riding with their flip up lids flipped up... if they can do it why can't you.
I dont know the whys and wherefores regarding the legal side of things though. As Razor says its illegal to ride without a lid, but you had a lid on.
What exactly did he say to you, and what if any paperwork did he give you ?
valleyboy
13-10-06, 08:43 PM
though there are technicalities to how you are wearing a helmet, the straps on it have to be done up, otherwise it doesnt class as being worn... other than that, same as above.. it was on your head, and the straps were done up....
Just a guess here but, could it have something to do with the shape of the helmet whilst the flip is up.
For example, years ago the Simpson Bandit was illegal as it had straight edges around the chin area. This meant that if you were sliding along the ground and your helmet caught the ground there was a possibility of it twisting violently and possibly breaking your neck. I would assume that having the flip up could also cause some similar damage if sliding along the ground.
Just a guess but I can see the reasoning.
What exactly did he say to you, and what if any paperwork did he give you ?[/quote]
His words were " I am fed up with seeing your lot riding up and down with these new fangled helmets"
He also proceeded to say that it is his understanding that riding with the flip up is illegal and he would check so he could dish out the correct ticket next time.
I must say he was a grumpy old git and very anti bikes.
kwak zzr
13-10-06, 09:07 PM
i was stopped the other night with a small plate, scorpion race can and an unlit number plate. the policeman in question was ok and let me off without any penalty :wink: infact we had a good chat about his skoda octavia 1.9d police car.
weazelz
13-10-06, 09:11 PM
:plod: pulled me yesterday. :cry:
I have a Flip top helmet and was in a queue of traffic in bristol and had the flip up. Was flagged over to the side of the road by a copper (police constable) and told i was breaking the law (he thinks??) by having the flip lid up!! :shock:
I asked what is the difference of having the flip up compared to the visor. He could not answer. :?
What do you guys think. and does anyone know the rules?
I think he may - unfortunately - be right :-(
I seem to remember that the helmet is only legal with the flip down because that is how they get tested. therefore riding with the flip open is to be riding with the helmet in a structurally weakened state. this, naturally, being regardless of the likelihood of an open flip lid being as protective as a regular open face
This git was on the beat, Must have been ****ed of with walking. :roll:
:plod: pulled me yesterday. :cry:
I have a Flip top helmet and was in a queue of traffic in bristol and had the flip up. Was flagged over to the side of the road by a copper (police constable) and told i was breaking the law (he thinks??) by having the flip lid up!! :shock:
I asked what is the difference of having the flip up compared to the visor. He could not answer. :?
What do you guys think. and does anyone know the rules?
I think he may - unfortunately - be right :-(
I seem to remember that the helmet is only legal with the flip down because that is how they get tested. therefore riding with the flip open is to be riding with the helmet in a structurally weakened state. this, naturally, being regardless of the likelihood of an open flip lid being as protective as a regular open face
Makes sense i suppose. But i would prefer for the copper to know the rules himself before telling me off for not knowing them.
Never mind, no Fine and no points all is well that ends well. :wink:
kwak zzr
13-10-06, 09:18 PM
it was like that guy on that ducati 916 race rep with no lights on, the old bill stopped him in daylight for having no lights and he said i have a daylight MOT the cops didnt know anything about this and kept the rider till it was dark then said "yea your right about the daylight MOT but now its dark you'll have to find a way of getting your bike home" :wink:
Just about right. :roll:
Some of them are as thick as **** and twice as lumpy.!!
It's illegal becase the chin guard may fall down on breaking and obscure vision.
Jelster
13-10-06, 10:57 PM
As far as I am aware (and I may well be wrong) the ONLY flip up lid that you can legally use "flipped up" is the BMW unit as it is designed to be used that way (that's why the old bill have them).
I'm sure somebody will come along and correct me shortly.
.
Bluepete
14-10-06, 07:28 AM
You could try contacting the manufaturer of the helmet, web site or whatever, that may give some info. Come what may, there are lots of cops out there who know absolutley sod all about traffic law and are positivly anti-traffic cops themselves! I'm sure there was a thread on here about a lad getting a ticket for an "illegal" pirelli diablo tyre as the "tread didn't go all the way to the edge" #-o
GMP use Shoei flip up helmets, plenty of the bike cops ride around "flipped" so I can't see a problem.......could be wrong though. Next time, just smile and wave, smile and wave. :D
DanAbnormal
14-10-06, 08:30 AM
So how can coppers ride around with their lids up (yep seen 'em) and also instructors?
I think this cop was just being a nob.
SV650Racer
14-10-06, 08:47 AM
Riding with the lid flipped up is illegal as the helmet hasnt passed the tests to be used in that way. Plus I have seen instances of riders riding with the lid flipped up and it has broken the mechanism that flips the chin bar up - obviously this was at high speed.
The chin bar on the flip up lids is integral to the strength of the helmet hence thats why open face lids often have stiffer chin plates.
There is i think only one make of flip up helmet that is legal to be ridden with flipped up, BMW possibly?.
Of course if you fall onto the top of the chin bar whilst its flipped up it could create extra leverage that could twist your neck in the fall.
I take it that this copper wasn't a bike cop?
SV1000s
14-10-06, 11:50 AM
It's illegal becase the chin guard may fall down on breaking and obscure vision.
Rubbish, they lock in place.
What about the Roof Boxer???
tiggers1963
14-10-06, 12:00 PM
I spoke to a mate of mine about this (who's brother in law is a police motorcycle instructor). His brother in law states it's not illegal to ride with the flip down piece in the up position, however some police will pull you over and advise you.
also found this
Flip top helmets can be used with the fliptop up while driving, there is no legislation or byelaw or any regulation which outlaws or restricts the use of the fliptop while in motion, it complies with the latest ECE safety standards, the helmet was designed to be used this way. It would be wise to point out however, you would have to be foolhardy to travel at high speed with the fliptop up, due to the drag and discomfort exerted on your neck.
The DSA frown upon riders who drive with the flip front up, and so do some individual police officers, they see it as possibly unsafe if you get a bug in the eye, but then what about riding with your visor up, or an open faced helmet with no visor or retracting visor, retracted? you can't receive a fine, endorsement or points on your licence it is not an offence.
from here http://www.devon-rider.freeola.com/lids.htm.
HTH's
tigershark
14-10-06, 01:58 PM
Another silly bit of information for you it's also illegal for a pillion to have a dark/smoked visor at night although it will be the pillion that gets fined and not you.
:plod: pulled me yesterday. :cry:
I have a Flip top helmet and was in a queue of traffic in bristol and had the flip up. Was flagged over to the side of the road by a copper (police constable) and told i was breaking the law (he thinks??) by having the flip lid up!! :shock:
I asked what is the difference of having the flip up compared to the visor. He could not answer. :?
What do you guys think. and does anyone know the rules?
I think he may - unfortunately - be right :-(
I seem to remember that the helmet is only legal with the flip down because that is how they get tested. therefore riding with the flip open is to be riding with the helmet in a structurally weakened state. this, naturally, being regardless of the likelihood of an open flip lid being as protective as a regular open face
you are correct,
most open face helmets are tested with it closed. therefore, they have no bsa stamp when there open.
if in doubt about whether its tested open, closed, or both, contact the manufacturer.
If you came off with the the helmet open, you've got a nice big lever point just begging to get caught on a curb or vehicle or anything else for that matter. That could quite easily result in a broken neck just from a low speed spill.
Not illegal, but not entirely safe either.
Ceri JC
15-10-06, 12:58 PM
I think the copper was right for the reason Jelster said. That said, I've seen plentyb of coppers with their lid
You might like to consider an Airoh TR1. They have a removable chin bar and as far as I'm aware they're legal with the chin bar removed (open face), as well as with it in place (full face helmet).
They look the mutt's nutts too. :)
it was like that guy on that ducati 916 race rep with no lights on, the old bill stopped him in daylight for having no lights and he said i have a daylight MOT the cops didnt know anything about this and kept the rider till it was dark then said "yea your right about the daylight MOT but now its dark you'll have to find a way of getting your bike home" :wink:
I would choose as my method of getting home, a police escort, otherwise sue for wrongful detainment!
Cheers guys for all the info.
I think i will stick to just the visor up at low speeds in traffic. :o
stu i suspect that if you look at P.A.C.E. you will find that police are allowed to detain on the suspicion of a criminal offence taking place and are allowed to detain for as long as their enquiries take. i dont know this for certain but i can make an educated guess. however i believe it would have been wise for them to arrange transport home for the guy themselves or expect a bill to land on the duty sergents desk explaining why they have a need to be compensated and i expect that would be paid.
PACE is the police and criminal evidence act.
not all coppers are muppets, although some are. They are trying to do their job and as with all of us they have different ways of going about it.
Personally stopping the guy with no lights is legit, i would give him a producer and allow him on his way though. However stopping the guy with the lid flipped up i would do in order to advise of the danger you are putting yourself in...if you have full face facility use it, it aint worth the mess if you have a crash to have it up...
Anyway a long winded and possibly not altogether on topic response completed!!
Andy
LondonLad
23-10-06, 10:28 PM
I've got lots of mates in the police and they all tell me the one thing that scares them is a complaint by a normal law obiding citizen as it is such a pain in the **** with regards to paper work and the fact they are treated like they are guilty until they prove otherwise, even if the complaint is unfounded.
The advice they have given me is to politely ask what station they are assigned to and make a note of their police number.
husky03
24-10-06, 10:48 AM
Well i'm a copper and to be honest there's alot of people in this job who THINK they know the law and act on it when they don't know the correct law-advice I would give if in future your stopped for similar ask the cop what legislation he's stopping you under(be polite please!)-if he can answer you straight away without hesitating and stammering odds are he's 100%on it-on the other hand if he's mumbling and not to sure I'd be asking him for his number and informing him that I was going to contact his office and ask for an explanation from his bosses on why I was stopped and under what legislation.
I find that most people are understanding about being stopped aslong as your polite and talk to them and not down at them.
We're not all bad-some of us are even mad :D .
husky :)
Dave The Rave
24-10-06, 11:24 AM
National Council for Voluntary Organisations (NCVO)
Well i'm a copper and to be honest there's alot of people in this job who THINK they know the law and act on it when they don't know the correct law-advice I would give if in future your stopped for similar ask the cop what legislation he's stopping you under(be polite please!)-if he can answer you straight away without hesitating and stammering odds are he's 100%on it-on the other hand if he's mumbling and not to sure I'd be asking him for his number and informing him that I was going to contact his office and ask for an explanation from his bosses on why I was stopped and under what legislation.
I find that most people are understanding about being stopped aslong as your polite and talk to them and not down at them.
We're not all bad-some of us are even mad .
Well that is a piece of sensible advice from a copper. Well done!
Samnooshka
24-10-06, 12:21 PM
When i worked at Hein Gericke, we were told that if a customer asked about this flip up leagality thing, we are to say that the lid should be used with the chin guard in place i.e shut, and that to ride with it open is ileagle, something about them not being tested whilst open, and also if you are riding at any sort of speed, they can be dangerous as the air can force the head back obscuring field of view and they have been known to fly off the helmet... in extreme cases. also the lock in place meachanism is not always the most secure thing and the chin guard can fall down. the other thinking is that you have to cover your field of vision, if only slightly, when you put the chin gurad / visor down. these are not my opinions... just what i was taught. to be honest i think you had a picky officer that pulled you, but he was right to do so in the eyes of the law i'm affraid.
At the end of the day, as mentioned below, you have the facility to ride with a full face helmet... you may as well use it... it aint pretty what happens if you don't :(
hope this helps
Sammy
stu i suspect that if you look at P.A.C.E. you will find that police are allowed to detain on the suspicion of a criminal offence taking place and are allowed to detain for as long as their enquiries take. i dont know this for certain but i can make an educated guess. however i believe it would have been wise for them to arrange transport home for the guy themselves or expect a bill to land on the duty sergents desk explaining why they have a need to be compensated and i expect that would be paid.
PACE is the police and criminal evidence act.
not all coppers are muppets, although some are. They are trying to do their job and as with all of us they have different ways of going about it.
Personally stopping the guy with no lights is legit, i would give him a producer and allow him on his way though. However stopping the guy with the lid flipped up i would do in order to advise of the danger you are putting yourself in...if you have full face facility use it, it aint worth the mess if you have a crash to have it up...
Anyway a long winded and possibly not altogether on topic response completed!!
Andy
Thanks for the answer - makes sense.
independentphoto
24-10-06, 05:45 PM
I think the copper was right for the reason Jelster said. That said, I've seen plentyb of coppers with their lid
You might like to consider an Airoh TR1. They have a removable chin bar and as far as I'm aware they're legal with the chin bar removed (open face), as well as with it in place (full face helmet).
They look the mutt's nutts too. :)
The Caberg Justissimo is also supplied with a conversion pack in the box to make the helmet open faced and the paperwork says nothing about any legal problems.
BTW- Strathclyde Police also use Shoei flips.....
Cheers,
Garry 8)
I thought the law was clear on this :? It is illegal to ride with your visor up on any sort of lid.
If your helmet can be fitted with a visor then there must be one fitted and, where fitted it, must be used.
Open-face helmets are only legal without a visor where one cannot be fitted.
Roof Boxers can be used in open-face mode provided that the visor is down.
All the other flip-fronts where the visor lifts with the chin guard cannot legally be used with the front flipped. Coppers with their Shoei Synchrotecs and BMW flip-fronts who ride like that are breaking the law.
Don't ask me for a reference, though :lol:
Please ignore the above post as it is almost certainly complete ******** :roll:
Couldn't find any references last night to support what I wrote :lol:
SV1000s
26-10-06, 07:38 AM
Please ignore the above post as it is almost certainly complete ******** :roll:
Couldn't find any references last night to support what I wrote :lol:
Why has my post been removed?
Jabba, you are talking ******** BTW.
SV1000s
26-10-06, 07:44 AM
I thought the law was clear on this :? It is illegal to ride with your visor up on any sort of lid.
If your helmet can be fitted with a visor then there must be one fitted and, where fitted it, must be used.
Open-face helmets are only legal without a visor where one cannot be fitted.
Roof Boxers can be used in open-face mode provided that the visor is down.
All the other flip-fronts where the visor lifts with the chin guard cannot legally be used with the front flipped. Coppers with their Shoei Synchrotecs and BMW flip-fronts who ride like that are breaking the law.
Don't ask me for a reference, though :lol:
Here you go, just to prove that you are (again) wrong.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_506862.hcsp
There is no law with regards to having you're visor up or down.
How would it be policed if there were?
Oh, BMW don't make helmets either.
There is no law with regards to having you're visor up or down.
How would it be policed if there were?
By the Police, like they do with exhausts, small plates, etc?
Oh, BMW don't make helmets either.
Pedant :P
I suppose I should have said "BMW-brand helmets".
Made by Shuberth, aren't they?
SV1000s
26-10-06, 12:11 PM
There is no law with regards to having you're visor up or down.
How would it be policed if there were?
By the Police, like they do with exhausts, small plates, etc?
Oh, BMW don't make helmets either.
Pedant :P
I suppose I should have said "BMW-brand helmets".
Made by Shuberth, aren't they?
So, if in the winter you were misting up and going through a town at 10 mph you can't open your visor because it's 'illegal'?
Think about it and read the link I posted instead of having posts deleted.
And it's not pedantic, what you said was wrong, just like the visor bull****.
So, if in the winter you were misting up and going through a town at 10 mph you can't open your visor because it's 'illegal'?
Think about it and read the link I posted instead of having posts deleted.
I did think about it. Went away to check and found I was wrong (your link was one of the things I read last night, btw), hence my "please ignore the ********" post above. I've said I was wrong, and said so before you posted so why are you still going on about it?
And it's not pedantic, what you said was wrong, just like the visor bull****.
Sorry, but to my mind it is being pedantic. No doubt others will decide for themselves, not that it's in the slightest bit important to anyone but you.
Are you going to tell the others that mentioned "BMW helmets" before me that they are wrong too or are you just picking on me? And if so why? Actually, don't answer that as I think i know the reason.
SV1000s
26-10-06, 12:35 PM
Chill out Jabba. You were wrong and you had a post of mine deleted and that ****es me off.
Anyway.....
Ok, I have just had this email from Essex Police.
My questions were is there any law about riding a motorcycle with a flip up chin bar in the up position or riding with the visor up (already proved to be ******** however one of my posts was deleted).
Classification: NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED
Tim,
Not a silly question .I have heard this rumour as well. There is no
truth in it at this time. We have just re issued our motor cyclist with
this type and it is type approved with the flip front in the open or
closed position.
Pc Martin ROSE
Traffic Law Instruction
Essex Police College
Ednet 53635
Tel 01245 452779
email martin.rose@essex.pnn.police.uk
So, there you have it. As long as the helmet is type approved then you are ok.
Why has my post been removed?
Fair question.......maybe a mod will comment?
Doubt that anything that you could have written would have warranted its removal. Server glitch?
SV1000s
26-10-06, 12:37 PM
Why has my post been removed?
Fair question.......maybe a mod will comment?
Doubt that anything that you could have written would have warranted its removal. Server glitch?
Yeah, right!
Anyway, the final answer is 2 posts up.
Godikus
26-10-06, 12:37 PM
I've got a BMW lid, but now i'm a bit worried incase i go out in it and get done 'cause it's all in my head. :roll:
if i remember right they also make the worlds lightest lid. unless they have been beaten recently.
BMW make helmets ... FACT
Chill out Jabba. You were wrong and you had a post of mine deleted and that p*sses me off.
No I didn't. Didn't even see it.
You need to think before posting comments like that.
BMW make helmets ... FACT
Over to you SV1000S................... :roll:
Anyway, the final answer is 2 posts up.
Cheers :thumbsup:
SV1000s
26-10-06, 12:41 PM
BMW make helmets ... FACT
Sorry, you're right, (I worded my attack wrong)
BMW make helmets ... FACT
Sorry, you're right.
:scratch:
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