View Full Version : Running in, what's your view?
I'm_a_Newbie
18-10-06, 11:10 PM
I favour thrashing it to within an inch of it's life. :twisted:
After it's warm of course...
When the SV goes, it'll probably be scrap value. So i'm treating her nicely which means I might not be forced to scrap it before I want to.
If the engine lasts that long, how much do you reckon a 120,000 mile service costs? :lol:
Where's the option - I wish I could afford a brand new bike / I'm not daft enough to suffer the first year's depreciation
Went for option 3.......go by the book there is plenty of time to clean up your pistons and rings in the rides to come!
I used to ride only in weekends and everytime you started thrashing the bike black smoke would come out the zhorst (that was not on the SV)
With the SV I use it for commuting sometimes and in general I'm not afraid with the throttle so I'll go all the way if possible.
amnesia
19-10-06, 07:27 AM
I pretty much ran it in as recommended. I did go over both the 5k and 8k limits occasionally, but not excessively. I think that the manufacturers will be generally pessimistic in these figures so they have some safety margin.
The added advantage of a run in time for me was that it kept my riding sensible...a good idea in my opinion as I am a new rider.
There are some options missing from the poll. Isn't the manufacturers running-in procedure to stop the rider killing themselves on an unfamiliar machine?
Alpinestarhero
19-10-06, 07:59 AM
True Story:
I know of a guy who kept blowing up brand new ZX6-r's. He'd buy the bike, go away and then come back to Alfs Motorcycles a few weeks later with a dead bike, get another under warranty and blow that up too.
After the third machine, the guy at the shop asked him how he ran it in, to which this bloke replied "i thrash them from new, right to the redline" (or at least words to that effect). He had to pay for the fourth machine!
Matt
Where's the option - I wish I could afford a brand new bike / I'm not daft enough to suffer the first year's depreciation
& the "they stoped making the curveys in 2003, so you cant buy a new one" :shock:
lukemillar
19-10-06, 08:22 AM
Where's the option - I wish I could afford a brand new bike / I'm not daft enough to suffer the first year's depreciation
Followed by
"unless I'm smart enough until waiting until winter, when dealers lob of as much as the first year's depreciation, just to shift metal!"
I've run in my GSX-R by the book, the way I see it the restrictions are probably there for a reason.
While I'm not sure that I would necessarily stick religiously to a running in procedure I am ultra paranoid about letting bikes warm up at low revs and building them through a ride, and clearly beating the thing to within an inch of it's life from new is just not an option for someone that thinks like this on a daily basis :roll:
That said, never owned a new bike :wink:
skidmarx
19-10-06, 09:39 AM
I'm on my second SV and I've run them both in by the book. I've read plenty on here about the amount of oil an SV CAN use, and the dealer told me once that 'These twins can use a bit of oil, so check it regular'. I've never had to put a drop of oil in either bike, or even noticed a drop in level between services. Maybe this is because I've run them in? :-k
I'm on my second SV and I've run them both in by the book. I've read plenty on here about the amount of oil an SV CAN use, and the dealer told me once that 'These twins can use a bit of oil, so check it regular'. I've never had to put a drop of oil in either bike, or even noticed a drop in level between services. Maybe this is because I've run them in? :-k
Almost 6000miles in on my new (now not-so-new) K6, and I have to agree. She's never used a drop of oil over what weekend warriors would call a year!
Blue_SV650S
19-10-06, 09:48 AM
What’s funny is that modern cars don’t state a running in period … with modern engineering it is a thing of the past. So why do bikes still have a running in period??
600+ once the bores are glazed (which running in by the book will do) then they will remain that way until it gets honed (i.e. never unless you have a rebuild). If you want your bike to be oil tight and have max compression you need to thrash it from new (when up to temp obviously) to seat the rings properly. This majority of this process actually happens within the first few miles of running!!!
I have run in by the book in the past, but with what I know now, I’d thrash it initially to seal things, then just be a bit mindful that it is young after that until it has a few miles on the clock!!
The most important thing is that the bike (oil, water, components) is up to temp, if its not then that is when damage is done.
What’s funny is that modern cars don’t state a running in period … with modern engineering it is a thing of the past.
Every time my brother has bought a new car, or his wife has (yes, they're flash gits) it's always been stated as having a running-in period.
I think when my brothers wife bought her Renalut Clio, it was something like below 3k rpm for 300 miles, then below 6k rpm until 1000.
When my parents bought their brand new Saxo, this too had a running in procedure.
Has things changed that much in the last 2-3 years in terms of bedding engines in? (or at least the manufacturers recommended way)
DanAbnormal
19-10-06, 10:00 AM
Read this and decide for yourself.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Blue_SV650S
19-10-06, 10:02 AM
What’s funny is that modern cars don’t state a running in period … with modern engineering it is a thing of the past.
Every time my brother has bought a new car, or his wife has (yes, they're flash gits) it's always been stated as having a running-in period.
I think when my brothers wife bought her Renalut Clio, it was something like below 3k rpm for 300 miles, then below 6k rpm until 1000.
When my parents bought their brand new Saxo, this too had a running in procedure.
Has things changed that much in the last 2-3 years in terms of bedding engines in? (or at least the manufacturers recommended way)
I don’t really do cars (new especially) myself, so can’t look at the manual to confirm. But on conversations with my dad (who is old and a traditionalist about such things as running in) … the last 3 cars he has had ALL have not specified a running in period … he has had lengthy conversations where he just couldn’t handle this concept!!! :lol: “Yes Yes dad, things have changed in the past 50 years” :lol:
Flamin_Squirrel
19-10-06, 10:11 AM
What’s funny is that modern cars don’t state a running in period … with modern engineering it is a thing of the past. So why do bikes still have a running in period??
Because they're more highly tuned.
600+ once the bores are glazed (which running in by the book will do) then they will remain that way until it gets honed (i.e. never unless you have a rebuild). If you want your bike to be oil tight and have max compression you need to thrash it from new (when up to temp obviously) to seat the rings properly.
More knowledgeable people than you have said otherwise!
Ceri JC
19-10-06, 10:12 AM
What I read in Ride was something to this effect:
Thrashing it from new will make it make more bhp sooner, but also the engine will wear out sooner. Go easy on it and it will initally make less, but after a few thousand miles or so it will open up and make as much power as the thrashed bike does, but will also last a lot longer.
But then contrary to that, I've seen that website that advocates thrashing it from new and changing the oil & filter after the first 25 miles and shows much cleaner/smoother pistons from bikes run in this way.
I don't know what to believe. Without trying various ways of running in on a few dozen examples of a particular model of one bike (and then running them for 100,000 miles to see how running in effects longevity), it's pretty difficult to say comprehensively. Even then, it'd only be true for that sort of engine. Getting 100,000 miles on a dozen or so test bikes would be rather expensive R&D-wise, so I can't imagine Suzuki & co. do it. As someone else said, I suspect they edge on the side of caution.
My POV?
For a road bike, I'd run in according to the manufacturer's specifications. If it breaks, at least you've not voided your warranty. For a dedicated race/track bike(not that I've had one!); I'd thrash from new (once warm) to ensure it makes peak power early on. It's probably going to be wrecked/sold before 20,000 miles, so longevity isn't a concern.
With regard to car engines:
It's correct they don't need running in any more. I drive a lot of brand new cars and I've certainly noticed the engine feels a bit "tight" and slightly unwilling/less responsive than one with 10,000 on the clock.
Blue_SV650S
19-10-06, 10:20 AM
Because they're more highly tuned.
Why would that make a difference, its not about state of tune its about tolerances!
More knowledgeable people than you have said otherwise!
Ooooo that is a bit of a presumption :P How do you know what I know???! It was actually a highly respected engine tuner/builder that told me what I know now!!! Not only had he got years of physical proof/experiance, but what he said made sense!!
DanAbnormal
19-10-06, 10:21 AM
More knowledgeable people than you have said otherwise!
But then more knowledgable people than any of us have said exactly that as well. Depends what you want to believe I guess.
i always run in saucony, i have tried other makes, adidas, nike etc but find saucony the best, & they are half price @ m&m direct.com
fizzwheel
19-10-06, 10:25 AM
I ran mine in as per instructions to a point, I was told it was OK to rev it pass its running RPM limit by about 1000 or so RPM.
What I made sure I did do, was to warm the pick up properly before I rode it. That I never held a constant throttle, and that I used the gearbox as well and the Revs. I also made sure I rode the bike reasonably hard so it put load on the engine, rather than nannying it.
I read loads of stuff on t'internet about this subject, The general consensus was just to ride the bike as you would do normally and not worry to much about it. As long as you dont cane the knackers out of it, it should see you right.
IMHO of course.
lukemillar
19-10-06, 10:46 AM
Have to say, I'm finding this pretty interesting.
Where is Embee?? I don't have an opinion as yet, but would really like to here what he has to say on this.
stuartyboy
19-10-06, 12:02 PM
I'm on my second SV and I've run them both in by the book. I've read plenty on here about the amount of oil an SV CAN use, and the dealer told me once that 'These twins can use a bit of oil, so check it regular'. I've never had to put a drop of oil in either bike, or even noticed a drop in level between services. Maybe this is because I've run them in? :-k
Ran mine in slightly differently between 6k and 7k for the first 600 miles as per the dealers (not the book's) reccommendation. 1st service at 1k then took it up through the range. Now got nearly 6k on the clock and never needed a drop of oil yet.
stuartyboy
19-10-06, 12:04 PM
That I never held a constant throttle, and that I used the gearbox as well and the Revs. I also made sure I rode the bike reasonably hard so it put load on the engine, rather than nannying it.
That's exactly what the dealer told me to do.
weazelz
19-10-06, 12:44 PM
What’s funny is that modern cars don’t state a running in period … with modern engineering it is a thing of the past. So why do bikes still have a running in period??
Because they're more highly tuned.
unlikely - not a great many regular cars make 100+ bhp/litre, which is roughly what an SV makes, let alone the 150+ that a 600/750/1000 sportsbike makes
weazelz
19-10-06, 12:48 PM
I think that if you're willing to do an oil change at ~50 miles to get the worst of the initial schwarfy crap out then it's probably safe(ish) to give it a reasonable hiding thereafter - given the usual proviso of having the engine warm first
most people won't change the oil til the first service at 1,000miles/km so having them build up more slowly probably makes sense
The general consensus was just to ride the bike as you would do normally.........As long as you dont cane the knackers out of it.
But that's how I normally ride? :?
fizzwheel
19-10-06, 02:54 PM
The general consensus was just to ride the bike as you would do normally.........As long as you dont cane the knackers out of it.
But that's how I normally ride? :?
:lol: He's right you know.
I Rode it as the manafacturer stated for a while, but had the frequent silly period of insanse revving a redlining each gear.
independentphoto
19-10-06, 03:47 PM
Read this and decide for yourself.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
What he said..... :winner:
Actually- I followed the manufacturers advice and used a strip of red tape on the tacho as a temporary redline, which I moved as the miles went up. However, if you read the article, the arguement is VERY convincing- particularly when you take the comments on oil into consideration.
Cheers,
Garry 8)
Have to say, I'm finding this pretty interesting.
Where is Embee?? I don't have an opinion as yet, but would really like to here what he has to say on this.
This topic comes up regularly but people come and go on the forum so there's always scope for repeating it.
Go to "search" and type in "break-in" in search-words and "embee" in author for a few examples of previous discussions.
The engine industry still uses the concept of a break-in period, even if it isn't specified as such. It comes from fundamental aspects of manufacturing components and reaching ideal running conditions. It doesn't happen all in the first hour, and if you are looking to make and engine which will last 100k miles with good oil consumption, you can't expect it to fully break-in in a few miles.
Funnily enough today I was going through some work I did a few years ago with a European car manufacturer who was experiencing some piston scuffing failures, and there were extracts from an article by a major piston manufacturer describing the reduction in ring and groove temperatures throughout the break-in period, typically 15deg C (mean values) lower at a given running condition after a full break-in than at the start. Peak instantaneous temps will vary more than that. That can mean the difference between the oil film holding up and not.
It's a bit like baking a cake, 30mins at gas mark3 will work, 10mins at gas mark7 won't.
Biker Biggles
19-10-06, 04:10 PM
One thing to bear in mind is that running in is not just about the rings and bores.It may be that they benefit from a good thrashing in the first twenty miles,but I bet the big ends and main bearings are less keen when tight.Engines on SVs that break prematurely often seem to involve some sort of crankshaft failure so maybe running in traditional style is the best plan.
FWIW I have run in two IL4s and followed more or less the official way,but never been too worried about giving it a couple of thousand extra on the revs.The main thing is to not let it labour at low revs and keep stoking the gearbox.Both those bikes were Kwak sportsbikes and neither ever used a drop of oil.
Dicky Ticker
19-10-06, 04:14 PM
If its under warranty and fully comprehensive go and have some fun
THRASH THE TITS OUT OF IT-----------sod running in
When the SV goes, it'll probably be scrap value. So i'm treating her nicely which means I might not be forced to scrap it before I want to.
If the engine lasts that long, how much do you reckon a 120,000 mile service costs? :lol:
my 120k service cost in the neighborhood of $275US(£150)
coming up on my 135k service in a couple weeks 8)
oh, ya, forgot to mention, I ran it in pretty much by the book
northwind
19-10-06, 04:19 PM
Buy a used bike :)
Most of us won't run the engine to a fifth of its natural lifespan anyway, so reducing the lifespan a bit, frankly, who cares? Running it in badly is almost certainly worse than running it in wrong though- I've heard too many people say "I had to keep it below 6000rpm for 500 miles, so I stuck to the motorway in top gear to get it over with" Aaargh!
Mine was a demo bike, which at the shop in question means one of the staff ran it themselves for the initial period, then the savages were let loose on it. It's quite healthy ;)
Hmmm... I just found a gap in the market.. I think I'll open a bike shop that does a running-in service for a fee... :lol:
fizzwheel
19-10-06, 05:38 PM
Hmmm... I just found a gap in the market.. I think I'll open a bike shop that does a running-in service for a fee... :lol:
I like your thinking, need any help...
Would a restricted engine have any long or short term problem due to it being restricted?
I only ask because I may be in that situation in a month or so
instigator
19-10-06, 06:09 PM
Few people actually keep their bikes for long enough anyway for the running in period to have any detrimental effect. Well, thats based on the number of bikes for sale with about 1-10k on the odometer.
Personally I'd just ride it as is but I've not been foolish enough to buy new yet (that day will come :cry: )
I'm_a_Newbie
19-10-06, 11:18 PM
Wow, I wasn't expecting this many responses in this short space of time.
The simple fact is only the engine builder will know how tight the tolerances are for each particular engine they build, that is if they have done their job properly.
When I was building engines as part of my job years ago, so many people never bothered to check the tolerances it made me mad. Several times I had to adjust ring gaps because they were too tight. I never ever saw anybody check bearing nip on the big end and main shell bearings. If they were too tight it could cause the shell to distort causing too much fiction in one area and not enough in others. Several times the builders would wonder why they couldn't turn the crankshaft by hand after fitting it and then not bothering to do anything about it.
If an engine has been put together well the bottom end should be run in in a short period of time. After all the surface of the shell bearings are made of soft metal. Heat will be there worst enemy. Especially if they are distorted. Manufacturers these days only use a fine honing pattern on the cylinder bores, which means you do only have a few hundred miles to get the rings bedded in. The only way to get the rings pushed out to the cylinder walls is high combustion pressures. The only way to get this is by giving the engine some stick. So here we have a conflict of interests.
The sad fact is that if a new engine is treated gently, oil and combustion gases get past the rings and into the ring grooves. Once this happens a sludge of burnt oil and soot begins to clog up the grooves and rings preventing them from working as effeciently. The engine will not give as much compression and will tend to cunsume more oil than an engine that has been run in hard. This last statement is not always true as it also depends how good the oil control ring is at its job. This is usually the bottom ring on the piston and allows oil to drain back to the crankcase so it does not enter the combustion chamber.
Tim.
Dicky Ticker
20-10-06, 08:17 AM
Bring s us back to THRASH THE TITS OF IT but gently As the bike is under warranty for two years and my personal experience is that an engine pushed hard from day one is usually quicker and less oil consumption. My engine had done 13K
[before I binned it] was fast and free reving and never used any oil. As stated in prior posts in is unusual for an owner to keep a bike for a life time. My only suggestion ,which I did myself,is give it a couple of quick oil changes i.e. 200miles
600miles and then 1500miles thereby removing any metal particals that may be circulating and not trapped by the filter or magnetic sump plug
Clean oil and filters is the best thing for prolonging trouble free motoring
This is another topic where too many times people talk in terms of black and white - bee too gentle vs thrash it.
Break-in is a progressive process and should be done correctly, end of.
Sliding speed is the critical issue for the first phase of piston/liner interface break-in, new components have very small contact areas and frictional heat generated can cause the oil film to break down and lead to micro-welding and tearing of the surfaces, this will not subsequently heal. Sorry but that's a fact of life, and no amount of ah-but's can change it. This phase is more akin to a machining process than a wear process.
Use moderate engine speeds for the first couple of hours and you'll get through this phase.
Then progressively increase speeds and loads, using higher speeds at light load and following on with high load at the lower speeds, and progressively bring the speed load combinations up the rev range. By about 20hrs/600mls on a road-based break-in you should be using near full power occasionally.
Is 600miles of controlled use such a big issue? Just do it and then get on and enjoy the bike.
Production engines are manufactured and built under strict process control so it's very unlikely that incorrect clearances/nips/overstands etc are built into it. Design and development processes ensure that the new engine is tolerant of "abuse" without failure, but that's not to say that everyone should do a "cold-scuff" test on their new engine just because it can survive it.
...but at the end of the day it's your engine so do with it what you will......
jonboy99
20-10-06, 10:26 AM
Few people actually keep their bikes for long enough anyway for the running in period to have any detrimental effect. Well, thats based on the number of bikes for sale with about 1-10k on the odometer.
Personally I'd just ride it as is but I've not been foolish enough to buy new yet (that day will come :cry: )
If you believe what the mototune (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm) guy says, too gentle running in will lead to it making less power and burning more oil from day one.
jkchops
21-10-06, 04:22 PM
Would a restricted engine have any long or short term problem due to it being restricted?
I only ask because I may be in that situation in a month or so
Has anyone got some information on this?
I was going to buy a new SV650S next may when my 33bhp restriction was over and when i finished Uni. However, the new deal with the SV650 sport is something to consider especially for the full comp insurance and the fact i was going to buy lowers anyway.
If i buy the SV sport soon (which is 95% likely as i have the money) i will need to get it restricted.
So does a restricted engine have an effect during the running in period which a normal engine woudlnt?
northwind
21-10-06, 05:34 PM
I would doubt it, since the diet engine's still able to do everything that a full-fat one would, just with less power. But I'm no engineer.
Blue_SV650S
21-10-06, 07:47 PM
jkchops - The restrictor kits are just washers in the inlet right??? Or are they ECUs preventing it from revving???
To be fair ‘running in by the book’ (a restrictor would not make a difference to that as you need to keep the revs and load down. A restrictor will essentially help you do that) is never going to harm the engine, worst case is you will get glazed bores, and they are not detrimental to longevity, just power and oil consumption.
gettin2dizzy
22-10-06, 06:20 PM
restrictor kit isn't with the ecu -no. I took delivery of a brand new k6 on friday- have done 250miles over the weekend :twisted: i've kept it pretty much at 5500rpm, but have thrashed it to 8000 a couple of times. I was riding in heavy rain today and there was steam/smoke bellowing up from the front - through the tacho. I presume it was water evaporating on the radiator. Has anyone else had this?
northwind
22-10-06, 06:34 PM
Yep, it'll do that.
Usually injected SVs are restricted with a different ECU, I thought?
jkchops
22-10-06, 06:46 PM
Yep, it'll do that.
Usually injected SVs are restricted with a different ECU, I thought?
From what i have learned from reading the forums all SV's K3 onwards are restricted with the ECU. You have the normal 70-73BHP ECU and a 33BHP restricted ECU. Apparently you just swap them over to restrcit/unrestrict the SV.
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