View Full Version : Pointys faster than Curvys??
Blue_SV650S
29-10-06, 11:36 PM
<-- My trackbike is a curvy SV. This one bike in particular (blue one I try and overtake in the vid below) was a missile in a straight line when we were at Lydden earlier this year… :shock:
Basically I was following this pointy and decided to ‘bug out’ down the straight, thought I hooked up about the same sort of time, you can hear my engine on full song … pulled over to do the overtake, started to get the run, but then I got totally wasted!! :oops: :lol:
Didn't matter, but how can it be?? I thought they were essentially the same motor, one just carbs, the other FI??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFHEikGHBxM
My bike has a few mods too*!!! So are Pointys quicker than even modified curvys?
*K&N, Race can, tank raisers, TRE, 14t front sprocket, R6 throttle tube.
jkchops
29-10-06, 11:47 PM
U tube is saying that the video is unavailable at the moment. I will try again shortly.
gettin2dizzy
30-10-06, 12:45 AM
bike or ride magazine dynoed both of them at once. they found the pointy to have about 6 extra hp. maybe they had different sprockets on?!
Maximum power? Not much in it if anything. However, with a power commander I can fill in all of the gaps in the midrange by adjusting the fuelling *very* accurately. You just can't do that with a carburettor. Where there used to be a dip between 7-9k, a bit of leaning out has filled in 4 extra horses. While you are waiting to get 'on the cam', your competitor is getting away.
Didn't matter,
Of course it matters... You got wasted :lol: :lol: :lol:
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 11:42 AM
gettin2dizzy – That would certainly tie up with what I experienced, my bike was notably out HP’d.
sdusk – I was revving the nuts off mine, so it was only the top end, not midrange … also with the mods (sprocket and K&N) I’d expect mine to be faster than a bog stock bike on acceleration/when revving hard, bit it was plain slower?!?!
Stu – Ok, its never nice to get wasted :oops:, but I was thinking of dipping my toe into a bit of minitwins before that, but if I am struggling on power against a bog stock pointy, what chance to I have against the race ones which will be moded to the full extent of the regulations!?!? The whole point of trying a bit of minitwins for me was that it would be as level a playing field as you can get … sort of the cheapest form of superstock.
Bearing in mind everyone will be f-quick, power WILL make a difference and I don’t want to penalise myself by having a low powered bike!!! I also don’t want to spend a fortune getting my bike up to power … at that point I’d be better off buying a 2nd had pointy outfit!!!
bike or ride magazine dynoed both of them at once. they found the pointy to have about 6 extra hp. maybe they had different sprockets on?!
Now we just need to settle the colour dispute :lol: (sorry, didn't help did I? :oops:)
I have not found a stock pointy to be much faster than mine if any except for the top end, but sure a pointy with mods would be.
egypt220
30-10-06, 12:48 PM
maybe differant gearing and smoother in and out of the corners
When I said midrange, I meant anything before 9.5k (where max hp is). Can you remember what revs you were doing, what revs you changed gear at, and what the revs fell back to after the change?
BTW, I haven't seen anyone produce a dyno chart showing any improvements reached by using a K&N or tank spacers. Changing sprockets doesn't give you any more power, it just means that for a given racetrack (and usually a particular corner - the one before the main straight) you can be just in the perfect point in the rev range to get maximum acceleration and maximise your top speed.
northwind
30-10-06, 02:47 PM
The cams do make a fair bit of difference... It seems that swapping cams exactly from an injected motor into a carbed one gives roughly the same power regardless of induction.
What I'd wonder is how stock the pointy was... Also, there's not really much in your setup that would give you an edge over a stock curvy tbh. Have you jetted for the can & K&N? If you have, you'll know how small the changes needed are, which tells you how little actual difference they're making to induction (and if you've not, then that also tells you how small the changes needed are ;) )
Remember minitwins is power limited anyway... 72bhp IIRC. And you're allowed to drop in the K3> cams too. Though they have to be in the standard config, no intake cams in the exhaust side allowed... The injected bikes do have the edge, but it seems (and bear in mind here, I know as much about competetive racing as I do about particle physics) that it's still more about the riders and the individual setups than about the starting chassis. As long as you don't field a GS500.
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 02:49 PM
If you look in the vid you can see that I thought I had the run on the bloke so its not like he got out of the corner harder … it just out-dragged me.
rich_r - Dunno how heavy that dude was (anyone recognise themselves??) but even if I weigh a bit more I have stripped some of the junk off my bike, so I am sure all-up weight wouldn’t be far off …
Sdusk – no idea of revs, but you can hear in the vid, she was probably pretty high up.
If you look in the vid you can see that I thought I had the run on the bloke so its not like he got out of the corner harder … it just out-dragged me.
rich_r - Dunno how heavy that dude was (anyone recognise themselves??) but even if I weigh a bit more I have stripped some of the junk off my bike, so I am sure all-up weight wouldn’t be far off …
Sdusk – no idea of revs, but you can hear in the vid, she was probably pretty high up.
Haven't seen the vid this time, but you told me before I that it was me. hence the post above :lol:
chunkytfg
30-10-06, 03:49 PM
Curvey's are lighter than pointys but with less HP so should in theory be more or less the samer however if the guy you were chasing had shorter gearing, as you should have for such a short track like lydden, then he would have better grunt in a straight line.
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 03:56 PM
Haven't seen the vid this time, but you told me before I that it was me. hence the post above :lol:
Ah :) You bike is box stock right?
Curvey's are lighter than pointys but with less HP so should in theory be more or less the samer however if the guy you were chasing had shorter gearing, as you should have for such a short track like lydden, then he would have better grunt in a straight line.
Stu (as it turns out it was) I believe had stock gearing, my bike is geared down, so mine should have been quicker off the mark!!
But you weren't going 'off the mark'...
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 04:28 PM
But you weren't going 'off the mark'...
I was probably only in 2nd round that bend? Poss 3rd?!?!
Low gearing doesn't always give you the advantage you might expect. You might well have been over 9.5k and falling off the power curve. As well, each gear change costs a bike length or more (unless you have a flat-shifter).
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 05:02 PM
Low gearing doesn't always give you the advantage you might expect. You might well have been over 9.5k and falling off the power curve. As well, each gear change costs a bike length or more (unless you have a flat-shifter).
My shifts were pretty quick ... and it looked like he was barley trying (not tucked in or anything).
:smt015 dose it matter :wink:
lets face it they are both slow compared to blades, gixer1000 etc.
and we all know yellow curveys are the fastest........
:twisted: :twisted: :smt019
Does it matter? In some racing classes it is so competitive that teams will pay 10s of thousands for a 2hp advantage.
lukemillar
30-10-06, 05:20 PM
:smt015 dose it matter :wink:
lets face it they are both slow compared to blades, gixer1000 etc.
and we all know yellow curveys are the fastest........
:twisted: :twisted: :smt019
Hmmm, Nick was riding a yellow curvy, so clearly not the fastest!
northwind
30-10-06, 05:24 PM
Does it matter? In some racing classes it is so competitive that teams will pay 10s of thousands for a 2hp advantage.
Yup. But not in minitwins, because a 2bhp advantage would get you disqualified :)
kwak zzr
30-10-06, 05:28 PM
my pointy's really slow at the moment :( i think the wheel and disks are bent :?
The 2hp extra doesn't have to be at the peak.
arenalife
30-10-06, 06:18 PM
From the vid it just looks like he was in the right gear ready to go and was storming off while yours was still winding up, it's hard to make it up when you have identical power.
Think my bike is geared down as well.
91 indicated with 120/60 tyre is 7K, work out the rest from there.
Or with a 120/70 tyre 88 indicated is 7K
northwind
30-10-06, 07:20 PM
The 2hp extra doesn't have to be at the peak.
Yep, OK, but we're still talking about minitwins here.
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 07:57 PM
Ok, lets put a bit more perspective on this … this is basically the same thing, but showing the entire lap beforehand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asMRAX9Rogw
You will notice after catching him just before the hairpin, out of the hairpin I was short shifting to prevent from going up Stu's behind!! initially when I had caught up I had I intended to follow/film for a bit so didn't simply keep it pinned and overtake, but I then decided 'ah sod it' and was going to 'bug out' ... hence my immense surprise when I was wasted!!! :shock: :D
Robw#70
30-10-06, 08:26 PM
Your too late on the gas, he's winding on slightly earlier, but still too late, bit wide entering chessens too btw :lol:
The gearing makes a big difference when bike to bike, 14/45(46) is too busy round lydden reducing the useable torque round and out of the corners, 15/46 keeps the bike in the optimum rev range using all of the torque and whilst your changing gear as the power starts to tail off the taller gearing is still pulling with less effort and less gear changes :roll:
Maybe blue, you're just crap :lol:
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 09:35 PM
Your too late on the gas, he's winding on slightly earlier, but still too late, bit wide entering chessens too btw :lol:
The gearing makes a big difference when bike to bike, 14/45(46) is too busy round lydden reducing the useable torque round and out of the corners, 15/46 keeps the bike in the optimum rev range using all of the torque and whilst your changing gear as the power starts to tail off the taller gearing is still pulling with less effort and less gear changes :roll:
Give me a break, that was my first time on that bike!!! :lol:
p.s. I only took that line/that point to hook up as I was originally going to just follow him! :roll:
FYI I was running 14/44, which is about equal to a 15/47.
Maybe blue, you're just crap :lol:
You could be right there :lol: :roll:
The pointy SV took the strait line , you did 2 turns on that strait !
looks like 5 meters lost in the turns :P
Blue_SV650S
30-10-06, 10:31 PM
The pointy SV took the strait line , you did 2 turns on that strait !
looks like 5 meters lost in the turns :P
fair point :)
but to be honest, that wasn't the only occasion I felt out gunned by a stock pointy!!! :)
my bike is quite high mileage, could probably do with a valve regrind and shims gapping, but i still get the feeling the pointies are just more potent?
northwind
30-10-06, 10:44 PM
Well, yeah, they are. But not massively... Like I say, swap the cams and you're pretty close. Do the (minitwins illegal) dual intake cam swap and you're ahead of a stock pointy.
chunkytfg
30-10-06, 11:29 PM
Well, yeah, they are. But not massively... Like I say, swap the cams and you're pretty close. Do the (minitwins illegal) dual intake cam swap and you're ahead of a stock pointy.
You say that but If you looked at sarah's(sv650racer) dyno curve and my dyno curve you will find there is bugger all difference in them and sarahs from memory is running the dual intake cams and mine has stock K5 cams.
Both engines from memory are runing the same state of tune bar that all except mine is total loss and hers isnt anymore
northwind
30-10-06, 11:43 PM
Well, yeah, they are. But not massively... Like I say, swap the cams and you're pretty close. Do the (minitwins illegal) dual intake cam swap and you're ahead of a stock pointy.
You say that but If you looked at sarah's(sv650racer) dyno curve and my dyno curve you will find there is bugger all difference in them and sarahs from memory is running the dual intake cams and mine has stock K5 cams.
Yep, but yours and hers are also not stock bore or compression, so it doesn't really compare. There's a lot of dyno charts out there showing the various cam swaps in stock bore motors which are more useful here.
chunkytfg
31-10-06, 12:14 AM
Well, yeah, they are. But not massively... Like I say, swap the cams and you're pretty close. Do the (minitwins illegal) dual intake cam swap and you're ahead of a stock pointy.
You say that but If you looked at sarah's(sv650racer) dyno curve and my dyno curve you will find there is bugger all difference in them and sarahs from memory is running the dual intake cams and mine has stock K5 cams.
Yep, but yours and hers are also not stock bore or compression, so it doesn't really compare. There's a lot of dyno charts out there showing the various cam swaps in stock bore motors which are more useful here.
fair enough and tbh i havent really looked into things enough to know whats what so you wont be getting an arguement from me :lol: :oops:
northwind
31-10-06, 12:25 AM
TBH it's all been done before- it's the way it's working out in your bikes that's more interesting really. I knew a high comp motor is more tolerant of small valves/openings, but I had no clue it'd make such a difference... Wonder what'll happen with mine and the busa pistons/decked heads... If I ever do it, that is :roll: Should be running about 12.5:1 if my maths are right, so maybe these K3 exhaust cams'll come in useful after all :)
Blue_SV650S
31-10-06, 12:44 AM
TBH it's all been done before- it's the way it's working out in your bikes that's more interesting really. I knew a high comp motor is more tolerant of small valves/openings, but I had no clue it'd make such a difference... Wonder what'll happen with mine and the busa pistons/decked heads... If I ever do it, that is :roll: Should be running about 12.5:1 if my maths are right, so maybe these K3 exhaust cams'll come in useful after all :)
So you reckon with later cams I can get my curvy to produce the same curve/power as a pointy??? Humm ... that's not too dear to do ... minitwins might still be plausible then :)
Oh and don't care about non minitwin regulation mods as I would do normal minitwins if I was to do it, don't see the point in spending £many on an SV to get it to top Dynapro spec ... kinda defeats the object of racing a SV in the first place if you ask me!! :roll:
But each to their own and all that!! And I suppose if you had all the parts turn up on the cheap, then why not?!?!?
chunkytfg
31-10-06, 01:00 AM
TBH it's all been done before- it's the way it's working out in your bikes that's more interesting really. I knew a high comp motor is more tolerant of small valves/openings, but I had no clue it'd make such a difference... Wonder what'll happen with mine and the busa pistons/decked heads... If I ever do it, that is :roll: Should be running about 12.5:1 if my maths are right, so maybe these K3 exhaust cams'll come in useful after all :)
So you reckon with later cams I can get my curvy to produce the same curve/power as a pointy??? Humm ... that's not too dear to do ... minitwins might still be plausible then :)
Oh and don't care about non minitwin regulation mods as I would do normal minitwins if I was to do it, don't see the point in spending £many on an SV to get it to top Dynapro spec ... kinda defeats the object of racing a SV in the first place if you ask me!! :roll:
But each to their own and all that!! And I suppose if you had all the parts turn up on the cheap, then why not?!?!?
dynapro and normal minitwins are exactly the same regs. dynapro is MRO minitwins aka nationals and bemsee is clubman.
Blue_SV650S
31-10-06, 09:29 AM
dynapro and normal minitwins are exactly the same regs. dynapro is MRO minitwins aka nationals and bemsee is clubman.
Sorry, thinking about it I meant tunderbike ... some people are out there running SV700s with GSXR forks etc so cant run under minitwin regs.
northwind
31-10-06, 10:25 AM
Chunkytfg being one of them :) I'm not going to say you get the exact same results as the FI bikes with the cams swap, but it'll be very close. No problem at all getting either model to the HP limit tbh, just doing it well that's be harder. Loads of minitwinners and ex's on here, SV650Racer, Chunky, Rob and o'course Mike1234 as well, there's bound to be others but those 4, you'd definately want to listen to more than me :)
chunkytfg
31-10-06, 10:42 PM
Chunkytfg being one of them :) I'm not going to say you get the exact same results as the FI bikes with the cams swap, but it'll be very close. No problem at all getting either model to the HP limit tbh, just doing it well that's be harder. Loads of minitwinners and ex's on here, SV650Racer, Chunky, Rob and o'course Mike1234 as well, there's bound to be others but those 4, you'd definately want to listen to more than me :)
Yep i most certainbly a\m although to be fair i havent actually raced anything yet i just ownb a tricked up Sv that will be raced in thunderbikes next year. Although i did spend this year as SV650racers pit monkey and have a pretty high level of mechanical knowledge with bikes.
northwind
01-11-06, 12:44 AM
You mean you just ponced around with the green bike and pretended to be a racer? You were right up here in my estimation. Now you're down here. You can't see the hand gestures, but the first one was reasonably high, and the second one... Pretty low.
:)
chunkytfg
01-11-06, 04:03 PM
You mean you just ponced around with the green bike and pretended to be a racer? You were right up here in my estimation. Now you're down here. You can't see the hand gestures, but the first one was reasonably high, and the second one... Pretty low.
:)
No i have never pretended to be a racer. I built the green bike this year to be used for trackdays and to race with next year.
I did however complete 5 out of 8 laps of cartegena while in a race. :P :lol:
G - renamed
01-11-06, 06:14 PM
The ideal solution is to buy my tarted curvey minitwin with k3 cams and race that ;).
Right on the power limit with them, though if going from a really hot to a really cold day you may need to change the needle height.
I was 'getting along' ok with my 65hp or so bike in clubmans, though starting to get frustrated as I was getting out dragged by the same people; even managed an 11th with only 35hp (left a bolt loose on one carb) at Brands Indy!
However, once I had the K3 cams in it was noticable where before I was really trying to keep, I was then actually managing to stay ahead of people and easily at matched others getting on the power.
Blue_SV650S
01-11-06, 10:14 PM
The ideal solution is to buy my tarted curvey minitwin with k3 cams and race that ;).
Right on the power limit with them, though if going from a really hot to a really cold day you may need to change the needle height.
I was 'getting along' ok with my 65hp or so bike in clubmans, though starting to get frustrated as I was getting out dragged by the same people; even managed an 11th with only 35hp (left a bolt loose on one carb) at Brands Indy!
However, once I had the K3 cams in it was noticable where before I was really trying to keep, I was then actually managing to stay ahead of people and easily at matched others getting on the power.
Is it just K3 cams or K3 or later cams? and is it inlet and ex i want or just one side?
Robw#70
01-11-06, 11:45 PM
fit inlet and exhaust cams from any injected sv, putting them in the 'wrong' place is not minitwin legal and fit the later tensioners at the same time
Blue_SV650S
02-11-06, 10:40 AM
fit inlet and exhaust cams from any injected sv, putting them in the 'wrong' place is not minitwin legal and fit the later tensioners at the same time
Ahah, fair enough. Is it the tensioner blades that need replacing or just the actual tensioner device?
Whats the matter with the older ones?
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