View Full Version : What's the story with English rugby?
philipMac
13-11-06, 05:21 AM
Seriously, can someone explain to me how a decent enough side, decent enough to jammy their way to a world cup victory, gets beaten by basically every one they play since?
Argentina just hockeyed them out of it today :shock:
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/rugbyunion/story/0,,1946242,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
(Arg are a decent team really, but, their seventh consecutive loss...?)
While its funny and everything, I am a bit amazed I have to say.
What's going on?
Robinsons a :toss:
Corry's got no respect from his players.
Robinsons a :toss:
I feel sorry for Robinson. He's a good forwards coach but he's not even being allowed to do that.
Watching from the sidelines, it looks to me like the players are too big and are being over-coached; there's a lack of speed (movement and thought). Contast that with the Welsh who are playing with a smile on their faces and with a free spirit.........
Corry's got no respect from his players.
That might be true.
Seriously, can someone explain to me how a decent enough side, decent enough to jammy their way to a world cup victory, gets beaten by basically every one they play since?
Cos it's not the same side, without the same back-up and to be honest, to my mind, without the same driving goal.
We've lost a few key personalities rather than actual players and the mentality and drive they took with them has left a far bigger gap that the skill base.
Skills can be replicated (to a certain extent) and the players as individuals have got what it takes - but they're just not a team and it shows.
The world cup team - for all their faults at times - did gel well.
The simple fact is that they should be doing better, (as all the key parts are there...) but they not, and unfortunately getting slated by the press is just going to demolralise them I think, rather than going to make them buck-up and turnaround - simply because I don't think they've got the mental strength or driving figurehead to pull them up. :smt102
Steve H
13-11-06, 09:41 AM
Wrong shaped ball? :roll:
Luckypants
13-11-06, 10:09 AM
Argentina just hockeyed them out of it today
HA! HA! :laughat:
Sorry but as a Welshman, it's my patriotic duty!
northwind
13-11-06, 10:32 AM
I was really impressed by how well most people seem to be reacting to it, I'd assumed that the press would all be out for scalps but even right after the game it was fairly level-headed. Argentina just played better, England weren't particularily bad.
Usually (racist stereotype approaching) English sports fans seem to take victory for granted, and it's an outrage if they don't get it- it's a damn shame, because it totally undervalues the teams' achievements when they do well. It's just expected- but fall short of that expectation and watch out. The England rugby team had a great run there, but these things don't go on forever, and the comedown's always a bi**h.
Whereas Scotland, well, as long as we stay in a competition long enough to get a second round in that's a lifetime achievement. Sensible goals :)
I was really impressed by how well most people seem to be reacting to it, I'd assumed that the press would all be out for scalps but even right after the game it was fairly level-headed. Argentina just played better, England weren't particularily bad.
they are. they are after robbo's head from what i heard on 5live this morning....
Terence
13-11-06, 11:57 AM
Seriously, can someone explain to me how a decent enough side, decent enough to jammy their way to a world cup victory, gets beaten by basically every one they play since?
They suck?
(Up the Springboks!)
Yeah I know Ireland gave us a hiding over the weekend
I think we are playing the same old style of rugby whereas most teams now have adapted to play a fast running game England seem to be content to try and play a driving game. I watched the Irish v SA and the Irish guys really moved the ball about well with good fast hands, playing the ball out to wide areas quickly and forcing the gaps. The English game still seems to be pick up the ball and run at the opposition using brute force to try and open gaps rather than ball play. I think that nearly all the international teams know England's Game plan as we seem content on playing the same style of rugby over and over. Consequently the English ball passing/play is generally slow and predictable.
These are just my observations and opinions, please feel free to flame as you please.
northwind
13-11-06, 01:06 PM
they are. they are after robbo's head from what i heard on 5live this morning....
Ah well. Everything I saw just after was much more sensible. The TV commentators were all in favour of gettign Argentina into the 6 nations and the like, to bring them up on the world level. Back to normal then...
Bodes well for the Springboks though...looks like we might actually have a chance of winning one or two of the autumn internationals if England keep playing the way they did on saturday :lol: :lol:
I just wish Jake White would hurry up and decide on a proper squad before the world cup next year...time to take the silverware back to the R-S of A :twisted: :twisted:
Peter Henry
13-11-06, 02:27 PM
England as mentioned do not have enough naturally talented players to call upon. Those that are comfortable with the ball in hand and able to play off the cuff rugby. Presently it appears at times that if it is not a scripted first or second phase situation they are somewhat lost.
I know at the highest level one needs to take the % options but that does not stop the Kiwis, Irish and French from playing exciting rugby. :?
SoulKiss
13-11-06, 02:32 PM
Whereas Scotland, well, as long as we stay in a competition long enough to get a second round in that's a lifetime achievement. Sensible goals :)
Hey Northy - didnt anyone ever tell you about the Scottish world cup plans.
Its all about the fans really...
After all you book your flight to a warm foreign country to go to a tournament that we might win, (at least thats what wives/girlfriends are told)
If we (Scotland) got beyond the 1st round it would be a stretch to pay for more match tickets AND beer.
By getting knocked out early, the team guarantees the fans have enough beer money to allow the Tartan Army to get away from the missus, watch footy on the TV in foreign bars and generally spread the word that the Scots are a great bunch.
Didn't you get the memo???
wrong code
you should by watching rugby league (proper rugby) :wink:
Luckypants
13-11-06, 03:50 PM
wrong code
you should by watching rugby league (proper rugby) :wink:Round ball and if the rough boys tackle you they are not allowed to take the ball off you? No pushing in scrums in case the other team are stronger than you?
Proper rugby? :smt046 :wink:
northwind
13-11-06, 07:16 PM
Rugby league's just american football with pretensions of excitement :)
wrong code
you should by watching rugby league (proper rugby) :wink:
Welshmen in graveyards all over the world are turning in their graves at this statement :shock: :shock: You may as well say that you're gay :!: :shock: :shock:
You could say that the side that won the world cup were at the top of their game most retired afterward's Johnney Wilkinson hasn't hardly played and may as well have retired.
The new lot haven't clicked yet lets hope for a good six nations. :lol:
P.S. What the hell is happening down under with the league side.
wrong code
you should by watching rugby league (proper rugby) :wink:
Welshmen in graveyards all over the world are turning in their graves at this statement :shock: :shock: You may as well say that you're gay :!: :shock: :shock:
[-( NO,i wont say it
valleyboy
13-11-06, 07:46 PM
The game has moved on since the last world cup.... England are still trying to play their old game, though the rest of the top teams have started to move on.. theres no point trying to bully the oposition like England do, they tend to try and overpower their oposition, except when the oposition is just as powerful, and far faster in mind and foot... they get a wake up call. new Zealand handed them one wake up call, and NZ didnt really turn up for that game, they sat there and scored mainly off Englands mistakes, they are THE top team in punishing oposition mistakes.....
Its not really about England being crap, its about them playing the wrong type of game.. if you come up against oposition who WILL score tries.. you can only fight fire with fire.... New Zealand are one of those teams who only need a sniff of your try line.. even in their own 22, and they WILL run at you...
Englands game has been stick it up your jumper, and kick for the corners and try and strangle the opposition until you can score some points, and hope the defence is good enough to not conceed points... defences can be breached, and Englands game plan was found out during the world cup, but they didnt come across any teams that could push them about.. so after the world cup, England still tried to play their old game, except the world had moved on.. and Clive Woodward made a mess of the Lions then... and thus was prooved.. the game had moved on in less than a year. England had better move on as well, and need to pick a back line that can do more than just run with the ball, but think on how to use it. They have the forwards, but verfy much lack in the backs... Watching Guscott talking about the backs is always funny, as he hits the nail on the head.. England are only playing in one dimension rugby at the moment, other teams are now starting to play higher tempo quick rugby... where pace is out doing muscle...
just my take on it..
p.s. Hovi5... you cant be welsh if you say that :shock:
philipMac
13-11-06, 08:06 PM
Yeah. I was always sort of appalled at how well English tactics work, ie kick and force peno's and oppressing the crap out of the match.
I am thrilled to see Wales, the Blacks, and Ireland are really playing classy rugby. It would be nice to see Wales get a top notch team... for some reason I am a closet Wales fan. :oops:
Out here I am lucky if I see the matches at all, and there is no analysis at all. Guscott does know his stuff, but he is such an unmercifully smug git I can barely watch him. Grr. Martin Johnson is another tosser. Is he a pundit yet?
(Rugby League. Pfft. I might as well watch American football. :roll: )
valleyboy
13-11-06, 08:33 PM
With Wales, its a question of having all our players match fit at the same time.. though changing to Regions is starting to pay off... the Ospreys 2nd team beat Australia the other week :shock: plus some really good players are coming to the top.. thers quite a few players now knocking on the door for team selection.. where as a few years ago we were lacking any replacements, now, Wales have too many...
plus, from 1 -15 the players are comfortable in handling the ball.... even our props are quite adept at running and trying to offload in the tackle... we also have a habit of nurtering a back row that are closet fly halfs.. Michael Owen is very good at spotting gaps and putting in long passes...
Ireland have always played well as a team, over the past few years they have really started to click, all it takes is one half break, and Ireland always have supporting men to go through the gap...
France blow hot and cold.. one day they will be untouchable, and it will be like trying to catch ghosts... the next day they simply cannot be arsed.. and several players have said, they rather play against New Zealand than France.. as you know which NZ team will turn up.. with France, if they click you could be in for a torrid day... and that is Frances biggest enemy... if they loose faith in themselves they give up almost straight away.. where as the other big teams tend to plug at it regardless...
Australia seem to always be there, no matter how badly they play rugby, they always seem to have knack of scoring tries... propper athel;etes in the backs which run all day...
South Africa can play good rugby when they want to.. but I dont think Im the only one here, but everytime they play against England, it turns into a grudge match.. they only seem to be interested in how many black eyes they can give the opposition.. :lol:
England really do miss the leadership of Dalaglio or Johnson... big lumps who scared the crap out of the opposition, but also kept things together for their teams when stuff started to hit the fan... they were good at keeping their players heads focused, where as Corry now doesnt seem to be able to cope when things go wrong, as well as having Hodgson at Fly Half... who can be a liability in himself (rather like our Arwel Thomas at times!) he is far better than Wilkinson was at getting the backs moving... but seems to go into his shell when even one thing looks like it could go wrong...
Anyway, I reckon England will beat South Africa over the next two tests.. simply due to my reasons given above.. South Africa dont turn up to play rugby against England anymore... :lol:
South Africa dont turn up to play rugby against England anymore... :lol:
You wanna take this outside :?: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:
valleyboy
13-11-06, 08:41 PM
Thats just my opinion on previous games... :lol:
We all know you can play rugby rather well when you want to.. its just every game Ive watched the Springbks play against England in the past few years has turned into a boxing match rather quickly... the Springboks winning on points for punches landed, England winning for points scored in a rugby game :lol:
This time may be different, as Im sure South Africa can sense the opertunity for two wins... it wont be as bad as Englands loss to New Zealand, but South Africa also have that ability to score from their own line rather easily at times...
philipMac
13-11-06, 08:44 PM
France blow hot and cold.. one day they will be untouchable,
I know!!! France kill me. They can literally be unbeatable, or rubbish. There is no telling what's going to happen in a France match. (Was it a world cup match a while back when they wiped the floor with the Blacks? And then barely turned up for the England match where they lost miserably?)
The Aussies are the exact opposite. No matter what, they will blood and guts it out.
I dunno why I like Wales so much. They always seem to want to give sexy rugby one more try, even if they are getting hammered, and are playing rubbish. Dunno. Great Rugby country though.
The problem with South African rugby at the moment is that politics has played a huge role with people trying to get more black players in the squad leaving out players of "fairer skin"...not necessarily white players... and they have only just given the coach/manager full control of the squad again which could be seen by that dismal performance against the Irish. Lets hope he can pull it all together by this weekend...and hopefully the games will be clean as well. As far as dirty play goes...well it goes both ways doesn't it :?: :lol: :lol:
I dunno why I like Wales so much. They always seem to want to give sexy rugby one more try, even if they are getting hammered, and are playing rubbish. Dunno. Great Rugby country though.
I love Welsh rugby because they always seem to have a good "spirit" about the team and supporters...even when they're getting their asses kicked.
And they have a bloody nice stadium to boot as well :wink:
valleyboy
13-11-06, 08:51 PM
I think its in our up bringing.. we honestly dont mind our team loosing as long as it looks like we tried our best... in the past decade, some of our players simply didnt put the effort in... things have started to change now, so fitness levels have increased, and the players themselves are enjoying the way they play the game.. after all.. who wants to scrap it out in a ruck or a maul when you can run around like a mad man throwing back handed passes.. and scoring tries...
we have started to play lik Wales should play rugby.. or as rugby should be played..
We have produced some of the worlds greates talented rugby players, and continue to do so.. which for such a small country, is no mean feat
2005 was a great year for us.. we not only played some great rugby... but got the grand slam in some truely brilliant games... I had no finger nails left after the France-Wales game... and for the grand slam decider against Ireland, I was in a pub full of people who had lost their voices by half time... :lol: plus, it is true, you will hear people singing in the pubs around here on international games... even though we only just had voices to do so on that day.. :lol:
philipMac
13-11-06, 09:05 PM
and for the grand slam decider against Ireland, I was in a pub full of people who had lost their voices by half time... :lol:
Ah here. There is no need for that now.
Bloody Wales.
valleyboy
13-11-06, 09:08 PM
Hell, you always know the Welsh will support Ireland when they are playing other teams :D
Steve W
13-11-06, 09:25 PM
The England team is too slow; makes (far) too many basic mistakes; no flair; no imagination; few ball handling skills; no confidence; no motivators; no determination; is playing the day before yesterday's rugby; no discernible game plan.
Apart from that it's fine..
I can see them finishing last in the Six Nations...
The problem with English rugby is that it has no depth of players because they didnt foster quality players at a youth level which is bringing them up short at a national level. It will happen though - winning the cup would have changed that - and will continue to do so (subject to a win in the near future) after next year.
NZ live and breathe the sport. Its as much ingrained into the culture as football is in the UK (with League as the 2nd alternative). Give England a few more years and I think they will have a lot of new talent come through.
If they can find some new strengths somewhere again in their inside backline things may change - until then they will continue to get cut up here everytime.
NZ live and breathe the sport. Its as much ingrained into the culture as football is in the UK (with League as the 2nd alternative). Give England a few more years and I think they will have a lot of new talent come through.
Yup. That world cup win helped bring rugby out of football's shadow at a schoolboy lever methinks - we will reap the benefits soon - but I do still wonder what game they will be playing - are they being coached in a fast more mobile game or are they getting held back by 'old school' thinking from their teachers? :?
I think this is why the Welsh continue to produce such a high level of class players from, lets face it, a relatively small stock at schoolboy level... rugby is their prime game. Maybe it's because you can play rugby on the side of a mountain whereas you do really need a bit of flat ground for football! :P
(Hey - I'm of North Welsh descent so anything south of Harlech is pretty much flat. :wink: )
My supporting priorities are NZ, then tied second for Wales and England - so during games between those two I' just shout twice as much. Like most though, I'll support just about anyone when playing against the French. 8)
Steve H
14-11-06, 11:02 AM
:smt015 :wink:
ENGLAND 6 - 13 SOUTH AFRICA at half time =D>
ENGLAND 23 - 21 SOUTH AFRICA at Full Time :?
Well done to the POMS :!:
English sports fans seem to take victory for granted, and it's an outrage if they don't get it
So true..roll on the 6 nations when Ireland wipe the floor with all of them! :lol:
philipMac
18-11-06, 07:52 PM
English sports fans seem to take victory for granted, and it's an outrage if they don't get it
So true..roll on the 6 nations when Ireland wipe the floor with all of them! :lol:
Stop that talk xlewedx :wink:. Otherwise we will lose against Scotland or something.
And the French can still put the frighteners on us. Whether they win or not depends completely on France.
It will be interesting to see how we do against the Aussies.
English sports fans seem to take victory for granted, and it's an outrage if they don't get it
So true..roll on the 6 nations when Ireland wipe the floor with all of them! :lol:
Stop that talk xlewedx :wink:. Otherwise we will lose against Scotland or something.
And the French can still put the frighteners on us. Whether they win or not depends completely on France.
It will be interesting to see how we do against the Aussies.
Positive mental attitude philipMac. We'll whoop the Aussies, take the triple crown and complete it by winning the 6 nations. :twisted:
Once we've done that bring on the world cup :smt026 :smt041 :smt038 :smt119
philipMac
18-11-06, 09:44 PM
Positive mental attitude philipMac. We'll whoop the Aussies, take the triple crown and complete it by winning the 6 nations. :twisted:
Once we've done that bring on the world cup :smt026 :smt041 :smt038 :smt119
A cunning plan.
There might be one minor issue with it though...
*Ahem*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_qL0YOKnI
Dude, don't make me come over there and slap ya, remember "POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE".
Besides a reputation only tells people how good 'they were'.
We'll be kicking All Blacks ass and taking numbers. :rambo: :smt070 :smt071 :smt068 :smt067 :smt066 :smt027
northwind
18-11-06, 09:59 PM
I remember Scotland vs the All Blacks, 95 maybe. Lomu and Kronfeld led the Kaka forwards, so that by the end they were about 5 feet from the Scottish team, and the Scots just stared it down. Fantastic.
Then we got ****ed, of course, and Scott Hastings went home in an ambulance after making the tactical error of trying to stop a speedign Lomu :) But it was a good start.
philipMac
18-11-06, 11:02 PM
Yeah. We tried the same trick. Squared up to them, got right up in their grills, looked them straight in the eye.
I remember standing there watching, thinking, "This mightn't be the best idea lads". My old man was concerned that they would dispense altogether with the match, and just start kicking seven shades of scuttery sh!te out of each other there and then.
Thankfully the match started with out incident. And New Zealand industriously cleaned Lansdowne road with Irish faces for the next 80 minutes.
I think that is the best that an opposing team faces the haka - it's considered respectful (as you would be considered wimps otherwise).
But the best I have seen is when Aus faced them and then John Williamson (a real aussie outback singer) started singing Waltzing Matilda straight after - and then joined by 80,000 spectators at the olympic stadium in Sydney. It was electric and you could feel the ABs sink - but such a corny song to sing after the haka. Best game I have ever seen though - Aussies tipped it at the whistle.
the_runt69
19-11-06, 07:38 AM
I remember Brian Moore going right up to the HAKA while they were in full flow. The Ab's still whupped our rears tho, but not by as much as normal.
H
Supervox
19-11-06, 08:58 AM
I remember Brian Moore going right up to the HAKA while they were in full flow. The Ab's still whupped our rears tho, but not by as much as normal.
H
I remember that as well - it was great !! :D
One of the true greats of the English game - & someone from who the current squad could learn a lot, because he NEVER EVER gave up & ALWAYS gave 120% 8)
northwind
19-11-06, 02:43 PM
I remember Brian Moore going right up to the HAKA while they were in full flow. The Ab's still whupped our rears tho, but not by as much as normal.
I remember that, If I'm right that was the game where Mike Catt tried to tackle Lomu and got squashed completely into the turf :)
the_runt69
19-11-06, 06:14 PM
I remember that, If I'm right that was the game where Mike Catt tried to tackle Lomu and got squashed completely into the turf
Thats the game, mind you just watched the Paddy's against the Convicts, I know who my moneys gonna be on for the 6 nations and it aint England
H
Ireland whoop the Aussies...........................don't say I didn't tell ya. :twisted:
Remember philipMac......'positive mental attitude' 8)
philipMac
19-11-06, 07:21 PM
Bloody hell.
We are pretty good in fairness. In fact we are doing a decent impression of being the best team north of the equator.
Interesting. I think I would currently rate us as No 2 in the world. We would give the Blacks something to think about at least.
OK, the only explaination I can come up with is that we fielded a team in teh second half that was made up of cheap showbiz 'look-a-likes' of the real players.
Y'know - the ones that double up to open your local sports centre of something so the real guy can get on with some serious (missing out on) training.
:oops: :roll:
the_runt69
26-11-06, 07:49 PM
Have they sacked Robinson yet.
H
philipMac
26-11-06, 11:11 PM
Have they sacked Robinson yet.
H
I think they have.
I am not sure if Robinson knows yet though.
Have they sacked Robinson yet.
H
I think they have.
I am not sure if Robinson knows yet though.
I'm not too sure he knew they'd hired him to do a job in the first place! :roll:
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.