the new 800cc gp bikes

[kwak zzr]

i see that hopper's broke the lap record on the new 800, wasnt this ment to be slowing them down?

[The Basket]

yes it was.
the prob was that 990cc bikes were not making max power because they would be unrideable if they did. the 800 must be making the same power but at higher revs.
I hope Suzuki keeps this lead next year but I doubt it.

Nice SV1000 8)

[Biker Biggles]

Jerry Mac used to regularly set fastest laps on the two stroke tipple KR bike when the 990 series first started despite giving away 490 cc.This was achieved by much higher corner speed as the smaller bike handled much better.He could'nt win a race on it though as the others would smoke him off the line at the start and catch him along any long straights.They would then obstruct his lines at the corners negating any advantage he had there.
It won't happen,but it would be interesting to see if the 800s could beat the 990s in race conditions.

[Peter Henry]

The new 800cc bikes have the same weight as the 990's I believe but as stated will be revving higher and be able to carry greater corner speed. My suggestion is that before you know it they will be eclipsing best lap times as set by the bigger machines due to this.

The reason for me is simple, every race circuit has far more corners than it does straights. In addition the % of time on most tracks where they are at full gas is minimal. Hence the faster aggregated cornering will I think see those lap times reduced by the quicker turning 880 bikes.

People in the know will tell you that races are won by those with fast corner speed, not by those with the fastest top end on straights.

All of the above is open to question as it just might be complete and utter BS on my part. :D

[weazelz]

The new 800cc bikes have the same weight as the 990's I believe but as stated will be revving higher and be able to carry greater corner speed. My suggestion is that before you know it they will be eclipsing best lap times as set by the bigger machines due to this

I've heard this from various people in the tail-end of the season, but I'm not sure I understand it. is there some inherent reason why these bikes will be able to carry more corner speed?

[Alpinestarhero]

More corner speed due to less rotating mass (engine parts). This makes it easier to get the bike on its side in the first place, and therefore to go a bit faster.

Also, with less power comes increased driveability off the corner, so the 800's can get on it earlier without the rear tyre smokin'. It'll be ore inclined to hook up and fire the bike out of the corner.

Matt

[carelesschucca]

Don't you think the saddest part about the new rules is Honda basically forced the 800cc thing in, most of the other companies wanted to go to 750cc...

Isn't it weird why Honda pushed for 800cc as they've always had a thing for racing v4's and when 990cc divided by 5 times by 4 = 792cc just under the limit...

Isn't it also sad that they have banned 500cc two strokes, do they have something to fear???

[weazelz]

More corner speed due to less rotating mass (engine parts). This makes it easier to get the bike on its side in the first place, and therefore to go a bit faster.

fine, turn-in is quicker, but I don't see how that increases corner speed once lean is established

Also, with less power comes increased driveability off the corner, so the 800's can get on it earlier without the rear tyre smokin'. It'll be ore inclined to hook up and fire the bike out of the corner.

similarly, more driveability out of the corner, but that doesn't explain how it increases the speed through the corner

[Peter Henry]

Ok
Maybe this might help those wondering the differtences between the previous 990 machines and the new generation 800cc bikes. This information has been obtained from reports following the Sepang tests and from riders who rode there.

Firstly I made a great error in my previous post...the 800cc bikes ARE LIGHTER. This makes them very noticeably much more flickable in the curves.

Ok one sample from the Kawasaki team data at Sepang showed this:

The 800cc bike was down on top speed by some 17kmh. However the bike was up as much as 12kmh through certain curves.

One glaring difference highlighted was that in one particular corner the bike was braking 60 metres later at the end of a long straight....that's like half of a football pitch difference! :shock:

The new bikes will rev higher with most teams working around17/18'000rpm but all striving to get nearer to 20'000rpm.

The power delivery will be less controlled by electronics and their will be less reliance on traction control. Why?

The power delivery will be "flatter" and less brutal than that offered by the 990 bikes. Riders have stated that they will be able to go from "0" gas to full on gas without having to worry about highsides which was a factor of the 990's unless you fed the gas in gradually.

The nature of the power delivery will see race tyres last much longer and possibly see people able to put on late surges or for a leader of a race to just keep on going away?

The secret in being succesful on the new machines then is going to be all down to smoothness and corner speed. Being able to keep the engine spinning at optimum levels will be crucial as getting wrong will see a rider lose pace and maybe be passed by others. A slight error on the 990 bikes could be made up for quickly due to the extraordinary power available to the rider and so he could make up lost time due to an error.


Which riders will be more suited to the new bikes?

As mentioned elsewhere anyone with recognised corner speed already. Most particularly those with a good 250cc record or those that have most recently stepped up from that class.

A dark horse next year might well be Hoppers. The reason being he has had to hang it all out last season in the turns to make up for the massive power disadvantage that his Suzuki had. So you could say he has already had a full season to learn the new riding style required for the 800cc bike.

Who will be most disadvantaged?

I think any of the bigger riders will struggle through the season,(Barros has shown well in early tests but do not expect that to continue in the season) Colin Edwards maybe and definitely Hoffman as well as Carlos Checa.

Who will be most disadvantaged?

Nicky Hayden is going to have to totally relearn how to go in to bends as the method needed now is so alien to his "backing it in style" you cant try for that on the 800's as you will be risking dropping out of the "power band".

Valentino will also have some problems at first as he is a bigger rider and very much a late and hard braker. But of course he was a superb 250 rider and so it is just a matter of re igniting what he used before.


Genuine contenders next year based on comparative machine and tyre performances should be:

Valentino

Pedrosa

Melandri

Capirossi,(but tyres WILL fail him again)

Hope some of that helps folks. :wink:

[fizzwheel]

Who will be most disadvantaged?.... Colin Edwards maybe

Umh.. well most of you know I'm a big Edwards fan. I think this a little harsh. IIRC Edwards has 250cc two stroke experience, He rode 250cc in the earlier part of his career before he switched to 4-stroke AMA superbikes.

Yes it was a few years ago, but I think its a bit harsh to say he's at a disadvantage. He's changed his riding style alot over the last 2 years and he's well respected by Michellin as a tyre developer so he'll have a lot of input from that side of things to.

IMHO of course.

[Jdubya]

Who will be most disadvantaged?.... Colin Edwards maybe

Umh.. well most of you know I'm a big Edwards fan. I think this a little harsh. IIRC Edwards has 250cc two stroke experience, He rode 250cc in the earlier part of his career before he switched to 4-stroke AMA superbikes.

Yes it was a few years ago, but I think its a bit harsh to say he's at a disadvantage. He's changed his riding style alot over the last 2 years and he's well respected by Michellin as a tyre developer so he'll have a lot of input from that side of things to.

IMHO of course.

But as long as he is team mate to rossi he will always play second fiddle...sad but true :(

[Peter Henry]

Fizz...Please understand that my comment about Colin Edwards was in no way meant as a criticism, it was more an ackowledgement that he might be up against it. After watching the Kentucky Kid movie I have warmed to Colin big time.

[fizzwheel]

that OK Peter I didnt take it that way, I'm getting fedup with reading stuff in the press about how Edwards can't cut it. I think he's a very underrated rider, he' s also somebody who I love to watch ride, but he's also really down to earth to. I remember one year at Donnington when it had rained pretty much all year and he was being interviewed over the circuit PA and he said something like "Thanks to all you guys out there for coming to watch and having to sit out in this sh*tty weather" he got a huge cheer from the crowd where I was sat. Makes a change IMHO for somebody to say what they mean and not toady up to there team and sponsors like alot of the riders seem to do, and like all the F1 drivers do. He brings some personality and human element to the sport.

I'd like to see him win a race in 2007 he deserves to and IMHO he has the talent to be able to. I still remember Imola WSB in 2002 watching him and Baylis duke :wink: it out.

[Peter Henry]

Fizz I agree with you 100%. You really owe it to yourself then to at least hire the movie I mention. Colin is excellent and talks straight through out it. 8)

[Jdubya]

I'd like to see him win a race in 2007 he deserves to and IMHO he has the talent to be able to. I still remember Imola WSB in 2002 watching him and Baylis duke :wink: it out.

Totally agree, but until he gets the same equipment as his team mate is on, he will always have a slight disadvantage :(

[fizzwheel]

I'd like to see him win a race in 2007 he deserves to and IMHO he has the talent to be able to. I still remember Imola WSB in 2002 watching him and Baylis duke :wink: it out.

Totally agree, but until he gets the same equipment as his team mate is on, he will always have a slight disadvantage :(

Agreed, shame hes been on different kit this year to Rossi, ws nice to see what he could do when he was given the same stuff in the 2nd to last race this year.

[kwak zzr]

edwards does deserve the same tackle as valo its only fair, as a rider it must drive you insane riding the second machine.

[wheelnut]

Yes but do they sound mean coming through craner curves and frightening the rabbits :P

[Alpinestarhero]

More corner speed due to less rotating mass (engine parts). This makes it easier to get the bike on its side in the first place, and therefore to go a bit faster.

fine, turn-in is quicker, but I don't see how that increases corner speed once lean is established

Also, with less power comes increased driveability off the corner, so the 800's can get on it earlier without the rear tyre smokin'. It'll be ore inclined to hook up and fire the bike out of the corner.

similarly, more driveability out of the corner, but that doesn't explain how it increases the speed through the corner

Ok, it dosnt explain it very much. But there are two factors that at in part can help understand why. We need some more elaboration...

...I figure that if the bike is easier to turn, with more speed being carried into the corner there is less need to scrub off the excess speed in the first place; the bik eis more settled, and if a bike is more settled it can carry more speed cranked over?

New chassis and new generations of tyres also serve to increase the corner speed. If a bike is loosing 17 km/h along the main strait, but is making up 5 km/h each corner in a (say) 14 turn track, then its gonna make up alot of time?

Matt

[Alpinestarhero]

I'd like to see him win a race in 2007 he deserves to and IMHO he has the talent to be able to. I still remember Imola WSB in 2002 watching him and Baylis duke :wink: it out.

Highlights on my MySpace webpage of that :D no sound though, just music over the top :(

Still very good. I beleive I have a tape someplace at home with both races in full...

Matt

[fizzwheel]

I think this year its going to be about bike setup and development more than ever. Hopper is already saying that wth the increased levels of side grip chatter is already a problem. We saw Rossi suffer with it badly this year as well.

[Damoulianos Marios]

fine, turn-in is quicker, but I don't see how that increases corner speed once lean is established


Cornering speed derives from both trajectory and lean angle. Faster turn-in means also later turn-in which means wider trajectory and thus allowing greater corner speed, with the same lean angle.
Make no mistake, the difference is diminutive, 0.5 seconds faster on a 2 minute track like Sepang, is like 0.3% improvement.

[NatralSelection]

what is side grip chatter? what did it do to rossi during last season?

[Peter Henry]

The problem in question causes unsettling vibration through the frame of the bike when the bike is at extreme lean angles I believe and Yamaha could not resolve it with the 2006 bike. Their best fix was to place the 2006 engine in the 2005 frame. :wink:

[NatralSelection]

so its like when your bike runs rougher cuz it hasnt been maintained in awhile, only for top of the line bikes. is it always a problem with racers to a small degree?

[The Basket]

A few points.

Colin Edwards was not yamahas first choice rider. Or even second choice.

Alex Barros is a great rider although never a world champ. If he gets a good bike then I still think he can do well. Ditto with Carlos Checa. It's the man not the machine.

If the 800s are two stroke 250 like then a 4 time 250 champ should do really well....