Electrics problem.

[instigator]

Having problems with my Sv and electrics really isn't my strong point. :( If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.

Bike:

SV650X 1999

Recent work:

Valve clearances and shim adjustment, replaced 2 exhaust valves.

Pulled all of the wiring off the carbs and engine (bar alternator wiring)

Connector on cable that connects to starter motor snapped off but repaired.

Duration since last fired up:

4-6 weeks.

Problem:

Won't fire up. Occasionally, the starter relay clicks. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

What I've tried:

Tested starter relay. Works fine.

Charged battery, fires up my mates bike. Tried said mates battery in my bike (correct type) and gives the same results.

Made sure there was no wires not connected up.

Took out, lubed, checked state of connector and re-connected all connections.

Checked clutch and sidestand cut-out switches. Work fine. (I presume it wouldn't click if one of them was fubar)

Possible next step:

- Attempt to set fire to it
- Consult sv650.org and ask for advice on how to set fire to it
- Consult sv650.org and pick the minds of technical minded folk

It could be something simple like a loose earthed connection, I am really not keen on electrics and knowledge is limited. Hope the supplied info is sufficient. :)

[oldie]

Try smacking the starter with a hammer. It may be seized from lack of use, and a good belt can sometimes jar it loose. Don't overdo it though.

[Blue_SV650S]

Try smacking the starter with a hammer. It may be seized from lack of use, and a good belt can sometimes jar it loose. Don't overdo it though.

orrrrr .... get a jump lead and short out the starter relay/solenoid ... i.e. put one clip on each of the two nuts on the relay/solenoid ... you are essentially then connecting the battery straight to the starter motor. If the motor is goosed then it still won't turn over (presuming battery is good). If it turns over then it might be the solenoid itself ... oh and to be sure it isn't a bad earth use the other jump lead from the -ve terminal to somewhere unpainted on the engine (say an engine bolt).

Let us know the results and we can take it from there ...

[instigator]

I will test this tomorrow afternoon, thanks. :)

Starter isn't seized that I can tell as I have tried the old "hit it with a mallet" trick.

Has annoyed me quite a lot this. Can't check if the motor is running properly after I done all the work on it. :x

I assume I would connect the positive terminal from battery to the right hand side nut (I am assuming you mean the litle holder with the 2 x 30a fuses in it)

[Blue_SV650S]

I assume I would connect the positive terminal from battery to the right hand side nut (I am assuming you mean the litle holder with the 2 x 30a fuses in it)

yes, thats the boy. You can either short out the two nuts (the LH nut is the main +ve feed/lead from the battery anyway) or indeed take the +ve battery to the RH nut, this to be honest takes 1 more bit of wire out of the loop and probably even better idea. You can short the terminal with a screwdriver (or whatever) ... if you don't have leads, but expect sparks ;) Its also best to try and get a jump-lead as a temporary earth.

[instigator]

Hi

Tried it this afternoon, well 5 minutes ago. Wasn't really quite sure what way to connect the +ve and -ve and what to do with the ignition/starter button if anything. Well, when conected one way it would cause sparks (negative earthed on frame bolt and positive on rh nut) and when I had both connected to a nut each, it would make the starter relay click as before.

What does that mean then. :? Bad earth? :? I'm soooooo fed up with getting my hands dirty at the moment.

[Blue_SV650S]

Hi

Tried it this afternoon, well 5 minutes ago. Wasn't really quite sure what way to connect the +ve and -ve and what to do with the ignition/starter button if anything. Well, when conected one way it would cause sparks (negative earthed on frame bolt and positive on rh nut) and when I had both connected to a nut each, it would make the starter relay click as before.

What does that mean then. :? Bad earth? :? I'm soooooo fed up with getting my hands dirty at the moment.

-ve lead (black) from -ve terminal on battery to any nice clean earthing point on the frame/engine.

+ve lead (red) +ve battery to the RHS nut of the starter relay ... it will spark/ark when connecting, but as soon as the clip has got a good connection, sparks should go and motor should turn straight away, if it doesn't then disconnect +ve lead quickly - your start motor is jammed or just fooked :?

go try again.

[jambo]

-ve lead (black) from -ve terminal on battery to any nice clean earthing point on the frame/engine.

Don't worry about this at first if the battery is mounted securely as it should be ok. But if no joy then yep try this too. A Multi meter between battery -ve terminal and an unpainted earth point's a good check too


+ve lead (red) +ve battery to the RHS nut of the starter relay ... it will spark/ark when connecting, but as soon as the clip has got a good connection, sparks should go and motor should turn straight away, if it doesn't then disconnect +ve lead quickly - your start motor is jammed or just fooked :?

On the starter motor relay you will see 1 short lead from the battery terminal onto the 1st Relay connection. Then a block connector, then the 2nd relay connection. In a working relay when the ignition makes the right connections on the block connector, the relay closes and makes contact between the 2 connections on the relay. All you are doing is side-stepping this and connecting it directly.

Please also note, can you turn the motor by hand using a socket on the crank?

Best of Luck.
Jambo

[instigator]

Please also note, can you turn the motor by hand using a socket on the crank?

Best of Luck.
Jambo

It could be before but that part of the engine casing is mashed unfortunately so I can't do that without taking the ENTIRE lhs engine casing off which means dropping the oil. Engine does turn over ok when spark plugs are out though. :)

I am assuming the engine SHOULD start with the fuel tank off? Even if it won't stay on for long, I just want to hear the sound of it turning over.

Got a distinct feeling starter motor might be fubar in this case as I held it on long enough for the sparks to stop and the bike done nothing. :( Will try again tonight. Difficult to work in a dimly lit, cold, soaking garage. Weather today is cr4p!!!! :x Will update tonight.

Appreciate all of your advice.

[Blue_SV650S]

..
I am assuming the engine SHOULD start with the fuel tank off? Even if it won't stay on for long, I just want to hear the sound of it turning over.

Got a distinct feeling starter motor might be fubar in this case as I held it on long enough for the sparks to stop and the bike done nothing. :( Will try again tonight. Difficult to work in a dimly lit, cold, soaking garage. Weather today is cr4p!!!! :x Will update tonight.

Appreciate all of your advice.

If the carbs have fuel in then it will run for a bit yes, but we are assuming that it just isn't turning over at this point? Or are you saying it will turn over but only with the plugs out? (and that is why the tank is off?).

You can actually reach the +ve terminal on the starter motor itself (remove rubber boot) if you want to eliminate another bit of cable?

Are you sure the battery is good??

If you have a car then use the jumpleads off that battery instead of the bikes. Connect the black -ve to the frame again (and -ve car batt) and the red +ve to the car +ve and to bike starter motor connection behind the boot (watch you don't short the lead out on the starter motor itself as this is earthed, only touch/clamp the bolt/terminal behind the boot). We are trying to get the bike turning over here, but if you have the ignition on at the time then the bike should start. What you are doing here is powering the starter by remote battery.

[instigator]

The engine won't fire up full stop. I can revolve the crank around by taking sparks out and pushing the bike about so nothing is too tight or seized. Closest I got to it doing something was the little 'click' from the relay. I haven't managed to get the engine to turn over yet so will do the tests mentioned tonight, in about 15 minutes.

Battery IS fine I am assured. Tried my mates battery in my bike too and same problems. Have charged it up enough to just over 14V but once I tried to start the bike 3-4 times, it dropped to 12.8V. :? Hasn't dropped from that level though.

Will do it tomorrow...the cables I used to connect the battery to bike melted so I think I need some dedicated jump leads.... :lol: :lol:

[instigator]

Okay, so I used proper jump leads. Negative from battery to engine bolt (lhs, one of the smaller length but 14mm s/s ones that fix engine to frame) and the positive from battery to starter. Sparked but then nothing. :(

Guess, I'll have to remove the starter and attempt to take it to bits then. I did remove it before I tried to start it but oil started pouring out so I jammed it back in. :lol: :oops:

[Blue_SV650S]

Okay, so I used proper jump leads. Negative from battery to engine bolt (lhs, one of the smaller length but 14mm s/s ones that fix engine to frame) and the positive from battery to starter. Sparked but then nothing. :(

Guess, I'll have to remove the starter and attempt to take it to bits then. I did remove it before I tried to start it but oil started pouring out so I jammed it back in. :lol: :oops:

yep, sounds like the starter ... if ou are lucky you might be able to unseize it, if not it could be the windings and a new one :(

Another trick might be to get a blow torch and heat the motor up a bit, if it is seized this might unseize .. another tap with a hammer wouldn't do much harm at this point either ;)

I'd go for a bit of that before taking it out. Chances are if it is simply jammed that after first use it will free up again.

[instigator]

Found out what was wrong.

There is a thick wire going from one of the starter motor brushes to the electrical input (threaded bolt). This wire contact was broken from the top of the bolt (should have been soldered on) so wasn't making any contact. Ordering replacement brushes jsut now.

Cheers guys, big help. :)

[Blue_SV650S]

Found out what was wrong.

There is a thick wire going from one of the starter motor brushes to the electrical input (threaded bolt). This wire contact was broken from the top of the bolt (should have been soldered on) so wasn't making any contact. Ordering replacement brushes jsut now.

Cheers guys, big help. :)

neat :)

[instigator]

£21.94 for a starter motor brush. £21.94........£2...1.....DOT......9....4!!!!!!

Ridiculous, I'll amange to get it soldered somehow. £21.94...jesus....most expensive part per gramme I bet.

[kwak zzr]

at least you diagnosed the problem that's the hard bit.

[instigator]

at least you diagnosed the problem that's the hard bit.

Yeah true mate. :) Got someone thats handier with a soldering iron than me. So will get him to do it. Chuffed with the help I've received, better than any other forum. :) :)

[independentphoto]

Chuffed with the help I've received, better than any other forum. :) :)


You got that right!

Glad it's lookin' good for you. With some luck, the weather will give a few good days for some long runs too.

Garry :wink:

[netsurfer]

Try smacking the starter with a hammer. It may be seized from lack of use, and a good belt can sometimes jar it loose. Don't overdo it though.

<cringe>

Careful! I have seen loads of starter motors converted to scrap due to the owners hitting them with hammers to "unstick" them.

The magnets inside when broken will cause nothing but bother (and WILL make the motor stick)

Usually if something is sticking it will be the starter solenoid, so dont smack the main casing of the starter (where the magnets are housed)

Just my £0.01 worth

[instigator]

This bike is really pi$$ing me off now!

Fixed starter motor myself, adequately soldered and tested (it worked). Put it back in, put oil back in, put carbs back on, air box on, seat panels on, battery in, tank on, all connections connected. I had a bit of a problem with the 'starter relay' (the unit with the 2 x 30A fuses in it) as the connector came off the two 'proings' on the unit itself but they are fitted now and everything is fine. Except the f***ing thing won't start now. It won't register anything...no lights, nothing, NOTHING works at the moment.. Battery is FINE sitting at 12.8V, continuity from battery to relay is fine, what tests can I do to diagnose the problem?

I removed an old alarm on Friday but soldered up all the old joints nicely and made sure they didnt contact anything, also took off the wires going to regulator for this but put back everything as it should be. I have checked ALL fuses and they are fine, ignition fuses, main 30a fuses, you name it, it's fine.

*pulls hair out*

The clocks are not on the bike at the moment as I sold them and am awaiting to get an aftermarket set, that won't make a difference....will it?? :x :x

[Blue_SV650S]

Sounds like you have broken the relay bit. take the 30A fuze out and with a volt meter check you get 12v on one of the tabs. If you don't its broken inside.

To double check before going further; with the fuze out, take a bit of wire stripped at either end and connect the LHS nut (or +ve terminal from batt) to the terminals where the fuze goes in. One of them should light everything up.

There is a strip of metal in the relay that feeds the +ve terminal through the fuze to the red +ve wire for the ignition. This whole unit is quite exposed and therefore susceptible to corrosion.

If all this seems to be the case, take the unit apart, bet the metal connector/run inside from the +ve terminal is broken. You can then either replace the unit/try and fix or you can make an external fuze. i.e. a 'hoop' on the LH nut terminal, short bit of wire - fuze holder - then splice to the red wire on the plug that goes into the relay.

Make any sense?

[instigator]

Not really. :lol: Will go take my laptop into my garage and try it then. If any problems, will let you know. Cheers. :)

[Blue_SV650S]

Not really. :lol: Will go take my laptop into my garage and try it then. If any problems, will let you know. Cheers. :)

take some pics of the relay and I'll draw on it ...

You have a donor bit of wire right??? Do you have a voltmeter? (this isn't essential, but beneficial).

[instigator]

Hi

Sorry, did understand what you meant when I was looking at it.

Tried it, got 12.8V on one of the terminals on the starter relay when I removed the 30a fuse so bridged it with a piece of wire as you said to the terminal which gave me 12.8V and bingo, lights came on etc. Just as well I tried the starter switch too because it would seem the starter motor wasn't working either. Again. :lol: So much for my soldering skills.

Okay....so new starter and replacement starter motor it is then. Thanks mate, invaluable help :) I owe you a few pints. :wink: Be back in a few days to let you know what else isn't working. :lol: :x :roll: :oops: I'll contact that bloke on ebay who is breaking his engine and ask for a quote. :)

[Blue_SV650S]

Hi

Sorry, did understand what you meant when I was looking at it.

Tried it, got 12.8V on one of the terminals on the starter relay when I removed the 30a fuse so bridged it with a piece of wire as you said to the terminal which gave me 12.8V and bingo, lights came on etc. Just as well I tried the starter switch too because it would seem the starter motor wasn't working either. Again. :lol: So much for my soldering skills.

Okay....so new starter and replacement starter motor it is then. Thanks mate, invaluable help :) I owe you a few pints. :wink: Be back in a few days to let you know what else isn't working. :lol: :x :roll: :oops: I'll contact that bloke on ebay who is breaking his engine and ask for a quote. :)

I am a little confused ... so you got 12v on one of the fuze terminals before using the bridging wire? you were using black -ve cable on frame/-ve batt and +ve red cable on the fuze terminals right???

Have you tried the jumplead on the motor thing again??? sounds like something weird is going on in your relay area ... you may have fixed the motor?

[instigator]

I THOUGHT I had fixed the motor...:( I've tried jumping the starter motor directly as per your old instructions but it's not doing anything so I'll dump the oil again tonight and try and solder more wire onto the existing wire (i.e get a amte to do it)

Yes I got 12v reading firstly on one of the little metal tabs that the amp fits into. I then, after reading your last post, went out to check it and noticed that the small part of metal that the OTHER part of the fuse fits into wasn't bent properly i.e the metal should link part of the fuse to the POSITIVE/RED wire that is connected directly from the battery. Ken what I mean? If you look/visualize it head on, left hand wire connects from battery to starter relay, on the metal connection is a small part of metal that jsut touches the metal connection and links it to the first tab on the fuse. That little part of metal wasn't touching the 'metal connection' that the positive lead connects to. :oops:

[Blue_SV650S]

I THOUGHT I had fixed the motor...:( I've tried jumping the starter motor directly as per your old instructions but it's not doing anything so I'll dump the oil again tonight and try and solder more wire onto the existing wire (i.e get a amte to do it)

Yes I got 12v reading firstly on one of the little metal tabs that the amp fits into. I then, after reading your last post, went out to check it and noticed that the small part of metal that the OTHER part of the fuse fits into wasn't bent properly i.e the metal should link part of the fuse to the POSITIVE/RED wire that is connected directly from the battery. Ken what I mean? If you look/visualize it head on, left hand wire connects from battery to starter relay, on the metal connection is a small part of metal that jsut touches the metal connection and links it to the first tab on the fuse. That little part of metal wasn't touching the 'metal connection' that the positive lead connects to. :oops:

yeah, that'll do it!! How did that come out?! ;)

Before you solder it make sure it is spotlessly clean. If you have contact cleaner great, but Methylated spirit (meths) will do the trick too. Then get in there and 'scape' too ... I take it your first solder job simply came undone/was a dry joint? Why are you removing the motor to do it??? ... again take me a pic I am a bit confused ;)

[instigator]

Didn't come out, it just bent slightly out of contact....crazy design, I would have thought there might have been some sort of metal ring connector for it. Maybe there is, but it's broke off mine. :lol:

I opened up the starter again (dumped the oil out again....sigh) and it was still connected. It is possible that it had shorted itself. The metal bushes in the starter motor sit on some sort of insulator and that there SHOULD be a square insulator for the screw that comes out of the starter and when I took it apart (the 1st time) there wasn't one. So I'm thinking it must have shorted against the casing. :x New one it is then. It is not worth me going to the effort of soldering it all up again and buying a small square insulator when the starter motor brushes are nearing the end of their life anyway (close to 9mm now)

New starter motor and I'm set. There's one on ebay for £29.99 but it looks burnt to a crisp and I personally think its a bit expensive!