What does the word "reasonable" mean? (Employment

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm currently in a state of apoplectic rage.

I'm working the last week of my notice this week at a company whos work sometimes involves night work, for which I've been doing 2 nights a week for the bast 3-4 months.

Yesterday (monday) I was told I was only going to be doing 1 night this week (wednesday) and saw no harm in going out for a (lateish) evening last night.

So, bearing in mind I was already a little tired, I wasn't really happy when I was told I was needed for night shift tonight (tuesday) and said as much.

So a few mins ago the boss storms in ranting and raving demanding to know why I won't do a night shift. I explained why, and he basically said he doesnt give a ****, it's my fault for being tired, and that it's not his problem that I'll have to drive home at exhausted at 4am (after doing 8:30am to 5pm in the office). I told him that he should have given more notice then, and that being given less than 12 hours notice is unreasonable.

At this point he explained to me that legally what he was asking me to do was reasonable, because after being here for 2 and a half years I should know that's the kind of work we do here, that I was held to contract (dispite the fact that in 2 and a half years I've never even signed a contract!) and that an employment tribunal would agree if I wanted to contest it :shock:

Personally, I don't believe him, but knowledge is power as they say, so would be nice to hear from someone (Jabba?) who knows what the score is.

He gave me the option of doing the night shift, or leaving at the end of the day and (as it's my last week)not coming back (and not being paid for those days). In the end, being that it's not the end of the world if I do have to work, I decided to do it anyway rather than call his bluff or lose the money.

[Stingo]

If you're leaving soon, ensure that you leave something smelly behind in a well concealed place!! :lol: Revenge is everything!! :lol:

[SoulKiss]

I'm currently in a state of apoplectic rage.

I'm working the last week of my notice this week at a company whos work sometimes involves night work, for which I've been doing 2 nights a week for the bast 3-4 months.

Yesterday (monday) I was told I was only going to be doing 1 night this week (wednesday) and saw no harm in going out for a (lateish) evening last night.

So, bearing in mind I was already a little tired, I wasn't really happy when I was told I was needed for night shift tonight (tuesday) and said as much.

So a few mins ago the boss storms in ranting and raving demanding to know why I won't do a night shift. I explained why, and he basically said he doesnt give a sh*t, it's my fault for being tired, and that it's not his problem that I'll have to drive home at exhausted at 4am (after doing 8:30am to 5pm in the office). I told him that he should have given more notice then, and that being given less than 12 hours notice is unreasonable.

At this point he explained to me that legally what he was asking me to do was reasonable, because after being here for 2 and a half years I should know that's the kind of work we do here, that I was held to contract (dispite the fact that in 2 and a half years I've never even signed a contract!) and that an employment tribunal would agree if I wanted to contest it :shock:

Personally, I don't believe him, but knowledge is power as they say, so would be nice to hear from someone (Jabba?) who knows what the score is.

He gave me the option of doing the night shift, or leaving at the end of the day and (as it's my last week)not coming back (and not being paid for those days). In the end, being that it's not the end of the world if I do have to work, I decided to do it anyway rather than call his bluff or lose the money.

Go home, sleep well then speak to a lawyer in the morning about an unfair dismissal case.

It IS un anreasonable notice period, and he IS liable if you have to drive when tired.

Also I believe if you have done a full days work it is illegal for you to work the rest - European Working Directive.

Stand your ground - its only 3 days wages to put on hold until you get your legal payout.

In fact, assuming that he doesn't own the company, go to his boss and discuss this.

Doesn't matter if it gets ****ty if you are leaving - does it?

David

[Marshall]

Burn the place down tonight!! :twisted:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm currently in a state of apoplectic rage.

I'm working the last week of my notice this week at a company whos work sometimes involves night work, for which I've been doing 2 nights a week for the bast 3-4 months.

Yesterday (monday) I was told I was only going to be doing 1 night this week (wednesday) and saw no harm in going out for a (lateish) evening last night.

So, bearing in mind I was already a little tired, I wasn't really happy when I was told I was needed for night shift tonight (tuesday) and said as much.

So a few mins ago the boss storms in ranting and raving demanding to know why I won't do a night shift. I explained why, and he basically said he doesnt give a sh*t, it's my fault for being tired, and that it's not his problem that I'll have to drive home at exhausted at 4am (after doing 8:30am to 5pm in the office). I told him that he should have given more notice then, and that being given less than 12 hours notice is unreasonable.

At this point he explained to me that legally what he was asking me to do was reasonable, because after being here for 2 and a half years I should know that's the kind of work we do here, that I was held to contract (dispite the fact that in 2 and a half years I've never even signed a contract!) and that an employment tribunal would agree if I wanted to contest it :shock:

Personally, I don't believe him, but knowledge is power as they say, so would be nice to hear from someone (Jabba?) who knows what the score is.

He gave me the option of doing the night shift, or leaving at the end of the day and (as it's my last week)not coming back (and not being paid for those days). In the end, being that it's not the end of the world if I do have to work, I decided to do it anyway rather than call his bluff or lose the money.

Go home, sleep well then speak to a lawyer in the morning about an unfair dismissal case.

It IS un anreasonable notice period, and he IS liable if you have to drive when tired.

Also I believe if you have done a full days work it is illegal for you to work the rest - European Working Directive.

Stand your ground - its only 3 days wages to put on hold until you get your legal payout.

In fact, assuming that he doesn't own the company, go to his boss and discuss this.

Doesn't matter if it gets sh*tty if you are leaving - does it?

David

My biggest gripe is that it seems he's acting little better than a play ground bully, and that he'll perceive that he's 'won', even though in reality it's not that much of a hardship to work, so I'll do it simply because I can't be arsed with the aggrivation of the alternatives.

[tricky]

Ring in "sick" just before your shift starts.

[fizzwheel]

Also I believe if you have done a full days work it is illegal for you to work the rest - European Working Directive.

Aye, this kind of thing is covered by the European working directive. Theres now all sorts of rules involving rest periods every so many hours worked over x number of hours you must have y number of hours rest.

I also think that when a night shift is involved you are entitled to more rest.

As for contract. Actually IIRC the law states that if you have no contract but continue to work under a set of working conditions for more than 6 months this becomes contractual even if nothing is written down or signed.

If it were me I would ensure I had my reference and that anything I did didnt jepordise my reference and then leave the company and stuff the 3 days pay and go home and rest and then you'll be in a better frame of mind to start your next job.

[Stingo]

I'm currently in a state of apoplectic rage.


angry post



sensible stuff

Doesn't matter if it gets sh*tty if you are leaving - does it?

David

My biggest gripe is that it seems he's acting little better than a play ground bully, and that he'll perceive that he's 'won', even though in reality it's not that much of a hardship to work, so I'll do it simply because I can't be arsed with the aggrivation of the alternatives.

In that case you'd better get down to your local Taj Mahal or Bombay Spice or Tesco's all in one meal deal for two hot & spicy like my women so that you can leave behind your own special calling card!! :lol: :lol:

[Kate]

I'm guessing you need a reference from the company? I hope this isn't the person who will be giving the reference?

If possible, I would suggest going higher in the company. The arrangement was for Wednesday night so I don't think moving it forward a night and then not telling you until the same day is fair or reasonable, but I don't know about the law bit though I'm afraid.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

As for contract. Actually IIRC the law states that if you have no contract but continue to work under a set of working conditions for more than 6 months this becomes contractual even if nothing is written down or signed.

This is the kind of info I was after, good stuff. I guess this is a valuable lesson - be very careful before agreeing to work outside the parameters of contract for any length of time unless you're sure you want to carry on indefinitely. Although a notice period for working a night shift as Soul mentions might nullify the obligation to work anyway.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm guessing you need a reference from the company? I hope this isn't the person who will be giving the reference?

If possible, I would suggest going higher in the company. The arrangement was for Wednesday night so I don't think moving it forward a night and then not telling you until the same day is fair or reasonable, but I don't know about the law bit though I'm afraid.

Nah, the person giving the reference is someone else, thankfully a decent guy. Oh, and they still want me working wednesday night too :roll: I'm glad I'm leaving :evil:

[Kate]

Time to ring in sick then? Migraine brought on by exhaustion.

[northwind]

Scots employment law's different to english in subtle and annoying ways... But I'm still 100% sure you're having teh **** taken out of you. First, ask for a copy of that "contract"... If you've union representation, speak to them, if not, then I'd speak to a lawyer. And take no advice from internet forums on employment law :)

[Daphne]

I'm no expert but I work in HR for shift workers so I may be a bit fuzzy on the actual details.

I believe the law states you have to have at least 11 hours break between shift periods so if you are working 0830 - 1730 they cannot legally ask you to come in until at least 0430. If the shift starts at 1730 then all they legally have to do is give you a 15 minute break every four hours.

The European working time Directive applies only if you work more than 48 hours a week averaged over a 17 week period (I think it's 17 weeks anyway) so it isn't much use in this instance.

The point about needing a reference is a good one. If you have it in writing that they only asked you to work he night shift on the day, plus in writing they told you you only had to do one night this week then you have a case for constructive dismissal, otherwise it's your word against theirs.

[Baph]

3 days left huh?

Funny that, because you can self certify yourself as being ill (in England & Wales at least) for 3 days without having to see a doctor.

This depends on your 'contract' as to if you'll get paid them, but hell, you deserve the rest ;) Sh*t, I mean you NEED the rest :oops:

[tinpants]

I'm no expert but I work in HR for shift workers so I may be a bit fuzzy on the actual details.

I believe the law states you have to have at least 11 hours break between shift periods so if you are working 0830 - 1730 they cannot legally ask you to come in until at least 0430. If the shift starts at 1730 then all they legally have to do is give you a 15 minute break every four hours.

The European working time Directive applies only if you work more than 48 hours a week averaged over a 17 week period (I think it's 17 weeks anyway) so it isn't much use in this instance.

The point about needing a reference is a good one. If you have it in writing that they only asked you to work he night shift on the day, plus in writing they told you you only had to do one night this week then you have a case for constructive dismissal, otherwise it's your word against theirs.


I don't think thats strictly true.
The working time directive exists to protect both employer AND employee. It ensures that there are a maximum amount of hours worked by a person in a calendar week and that said person is entitled to a minimum amount of time off.
In the case of shift workers it is, indeed, a minimum of 11 hours off between shifts not including any travelling time.
The working time directive applies to all areas of employment except for the Police and the Armed Forces.
As regards to rest breaks during a shift you are not entitled to a break unless your shift is longer than 6 hours in duration ( unless stated otherwise by local agreement). When working for longer than 6 hours a person is entitled to a minimum of 20 minutes undisturbed break away from the workplace.

HTH

Personally, I'd refuse to do the night shift, citing exhaustion and lack of proper notice. They can't sack you because you are working your notice. You can come to an arrangement about the remaning shifts you have to do, ie payment in lieu etc but this would need to be taken up with your managers boss, and not the pleb you have this problem with.

[mysteryjimbo]

You dont have to sign a contract. After 12 months its seen as a verbal contract and easy to prove as you've been there for so long.

It is illegal for you to work this evening. Lots of people would do it as overtime but that doesnt make it legal.

[Viper]

Tell him to sod off and go home.
Whats three days wages. See a lawyer in the morning as previously suggested and sue em for wrongful dismissal,
I doubt they would want the bad press any more than you want to lose 3 days wages.

So in short

GO HOME FOR F**K SAKE

[Jools'SV Now]

Walk out, you 'll feel so much better about yourself.

so much better infact, that you'll never let anyone treat you like that again.

[Jelster]

Jordan,

Personal integrity is so much more important than a few days money. You may feel that you need the money, but you need to feel right with yourself. Personally I would stick to my guns and say that you hadn't been given suitable notice, if they get stroppy threaten them with a union, even if you don't actually belong to one (you don't have to declare it to an employer).

Do you feel that you will be safe to travel (not sure if you commute by bike these days) after your shift ? In which case tell them that if you come in, you expect them to pay for a cab home, and you won't be back in for another 18 hours at least. Let them make the decision, not you. You give them options which shows you are trying to be reasonable.

If your line manager won't let it go, go home, come back in tomorrow and make sure you contact the HR team as you need to discuss your managers attitude. They cannot sack you without a disiplinary meeting at which point you can put your case across. If it comes to that, take a dictaphone/digital voice recorder in with you and place it on the table. Say that you need it so that you can make minutes of the meeting - that way you will have a complete transcript of the meeting.

Good luck !!

.

[Spiderman]

As well as all the good advice above i'd also say this. if you are gonna work over 48hrs weekly you have to sign a form declaring that you know your giving away that right and agree to it.

I'd also have fronted this guys attitude and told him exactly what you saidabove about him being a bully etc and tell him if he dont pipe down and stop threatening you you will call the police on him for abusive and threatening behaviour. its highly frowned upon in the workplace and even if the cops dont come out to deal with it you get a crime number for reporting it. I mean you could always make up the fact that you are worried he will physicaly attack you, that should bring them round.

And it'll do that twit no favours that you have mad such a complaint about him.

Play him at his own fukin game, seehow he likes it :) C'mon FS i never took you for one who could be shouted down.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Jordan,

Personal integrity is so much more important than a few days money. You may feel that you need the money, but you need to feel right with yourself.

I really don't know. I'm sat here debating what to do, and in all honesty as certain as I am that what you and everyone else has said is true and he's not got a leg to stand on, I really don't know if it's worth it.

It's a small firm (only about 20 odd people working for the company) and he's the director, so I can't go over his head and there's no HR department as such to speak of. Also, because of the short notice I've not had the time to digest all the information here, and now of course the office is closed. So, I've no way of presenting an argument to the boss before work tonight (which brings me to another question: if you in good faith think you're not legally obliged to do something for your employer, are you allowed to refuse to do it until you've had clarification, even if you later turn out to be wrong?) leaving me with the two options of going to work, or facing him tomorrow when he finds out I didn't go.

As much as I'm not keen on having to get myself home (I'm guessing it'll take me an hour to drive home, as I'll be in the car) I don't think I'm tired enough where falling asleep at the wheel is a risk.

I don't have to leave 'till 10, so I think I'll take a nap for a few hours, do the work, then explain when I'm back in the office that he's an intellectually deficient buffoon who was spawned outside of wedlock, and that he really aught to know what the law states before he threatens people with it.

I admit it maybe the 'easy' way out, but I'll know how to handle this situation in future.

[Alpinestarhero]

Tell him to f@@@ off. I would! Just because he's your boss dosnt mean he has divine right over what you do with your life. I've argued with my lecturers over things like getting work back (ok, not the same thing...my point basiclly is just because someone is in a higher position than you dosnt mean they dont deserve being shouted back into line when they are wrong).

See the laywer/solicitor. I think what he's asking you to do (work night after working all day right?) is wrong.

Just have it out with him. So what if he;s shouting at you! He's only another human being. And he isnt paying your wages for much longer so who cares!!!

Matt

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Play him at his own fukin game, seehow he likes it :) C'mon FS i never took you for one who could be shouted down.

It's more of a case that I don't have an opportunity to shout him down before tonights work. Don't worry though, I'll certainly explore opportunities for getting him punished for his disregard for his employees when I'm back in the office.

[Alpinestarhero]

And just another thing:

He's asking you to work after a full day. How does he know you havnt got something else planned for tonight? Looking after someone who's ill, taking care of some paperwork of your own (bills etc etc). Him asking you is really really unreasonable - just to bring it back rouns to the topic of "reasonable" behaviour.

Like I said - it dosnt matter who he is and what position he has in the company. You dont expect him to do things for you at the drop of a hat e.g. advance wages, give you time off right away for some reason. So he shouldnt expect it of you.

Its not about reasonable work expectations - its about reasonable expectations overall.

If you decide to go, fair enough. But you said you wont do it, and he should expect you not to do it as you have said "no". His shouting and stuff is, like you say, a bully tactic, to try and "remind" you that he is "higher" than you.

No he isn't. Not on this issue.

Matt

[Biker Biggles]

See a lawyer.It sounds like your working conditions are unlawful and you could cite that as your reason for leaving and go for constructive dismissal.Have they always treated you like this?I would work the notice but think about a legal claim after.Revenge is best served cold. :wink:

[Jelster]

I think you've decided to go in tonight, which on the face of it, I can understand.

Something to think about: Do you think that later on in life this guy may be useful to you ? It's important not to cross people as it may come back and bite you on the backside (been there, done that :oops: ). If this is the case, play it the way you're going to, but leave him in no uncertain doubt that he owes you big time - Even go to the extent of telling him you were on the verge of calling a solicitor, but you have decided that it is best for the company (not him) that you have kept the peace.

If this is not the case, and he's "the man in charge", ask to speak to him privately (but makesure others hear your request). When you're in his office, take him on all guns blazing. Show him that you have personal integrity, as proved by going in this evening (good of the company and all that) but that you find his attitude completely unreasonable. Don't be rude, don't swear, but show him that you're not afraid of him, and show others that the guy is nothing but a bully and that he can be confronted. You'll feel better for it, and others may not suffer the same consequences as yourself.

Underline that you are prepared to continue your last few days there, but you also have no intention of doing any extra hours at the drop of a hat, and you expect to be paid very well for what you have done this evening. Most of all, put him in a position where he feels he has to make an apology to you (he probably won't, be he may well be thinking it...)

.

[Jools'SV Now]

**Myth alert**

PS I believe that you can't be fired once you've handed in your notice.

Also against european rights laws to phone an employee whilst on holiday or to ask an employee to work whilst on holiday.

Probably :oops: :roll:

[SoulKiss]

PS I believe that you can't be fired once you've handed in your notice.



Myth - BUSTED!!!

I know someone who was fired 3 hours before they were due to leave - said some things about a director whilst under the influence of her "leaving lunch".

Was escorted from premises by security.

[peanut]

Have a look here (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/information/worktimedirective.htm).

This seems to me to be covered by the European Working Time Directive saying that all employees are entitled to 11 hours rest in a 24 hour period.

[silent]

i believe they need to give you 11 hours off between shifts...thats what we have in the police and i believe it is law...european...dont know for certain but im confident...

good luck sorting the muppet out

andy

[Jabba]

would be nice to hear from someone (Jabba?) who knows what the score is.

You called? :lol:

Actually - along with many other things, this is something that I know nothing about. Try a PM to Ed, although I suspect that the advice that others have given here is on the money.

However, I will say this - unless you are being required to drive as part of your job then the fact that you have to drive home after the shift is irrelevant. In those circumstances your employer is not liable for the method that you use to commute to work.

Try asking the company to stump up for a taxi?

Assuming that you already have the new job and the new employers have taken up references already, I'd tell 'em to stuff it :thumbsup:

[tinpants]

PS I believe that you can't be fired once you've handed in your notice.



Myth - BUSTED!!!

I know someone who was fired 3 hours before they were due to leave - said some things about a director whilst under the influence of her "leaving lunch".

Was escorted from premises by security.

Aah yes. That'll be for gross misconduct. As far as I am aware that is the only way you can get fired if you have handed your notice in. Could be wrong though. :wink:

[Carsick]

You've still resigned, though, they've just chosen to not require you to complete your notice period.

[Spiderman]

So FS, lets have an update on this mate. i'm curious to know how it all went down.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm back in the office tomorrow, so I'll let you know what happens.

I'm not really interest in any legal proceedings, but I would like to know for certain if he did act illegally, just so I can call him an ignorant git before I leave.

[Viney]

Id ask to see the signed copy of your contract before you do anything.

EWD is where its at. Seek legal advice.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Well, it's the last day.

I have to admit to being very tempted to walk into the bosses office and call him and knob, then give a long list of his illegal practices... but I'm not going to. I'm in a good mood, and a slagging match isn't going to achieve anything but wind us both up.

However, this experience has taught me a few things, both how to deal with idiots like this and after talking to a friend who (although isn't in the legal profession) knows a fair amount about this kind of thing, and a little about the law too.

Firstly, simply the act of the threatening behavior displayed at the time would have been grounds to tell him to go swivel.

It's likely that working the hours I did (and have done (along with several colleagues) for months) breaches the European work time directive.

Now onto the more useful stuff. It's unlikely he could have legally told me to pack my stuff, leave and not be paid for my remaining days there, because refusing to work (leaving aside for a moment the fact that I was most likely being asked to both work more hours than he was legally allowed to, and without the necessary notice) as far as I can see, doesn't constitute gross miss-conduct, and therefore grounds for being sacked on the spot.

But the following is what I found the most interesting:

As for contract. Actually IIRC the law states that if you have no contract but continue to work under a set of working conditions for more than 6 months this becomes contractual even if nothing is written down or signed.

You dont have to sign a contract. After 12 months its seen as a verbal contract and easy to prove as you've been there for so long.

I thought this was the case too (as do many people it would seem). All I have is an acceptance letter from when I got the job which I think states my hours of 8:30 to 5 Monday to Friday but no specific job description. Apparently though, should the situation arise where an employee has worked under certain circumstances for more than 6 months like I was then 'unwritten contract' applies to the employer only.

This means that as the employee I have all the protection of the law as if I did have a contract, but as I've not signed to agree to work in any particular capacity and certainly not any over time then I'm under no obligation to work outside of those hours.

Obviously take all the above with a pinch of salt (unless our resident legal expert gives it the thumbs up of course!) and of course every situation is different but there's certainly some useful information there.

[Jelster]

Jordan,

What I think is essential, is that you tell your colleagues (ex colleagues) of their situation and what you have been able to find out. The guy obviously can't manage people properly and results to bullying people into submission. It's better if they understand that what he does is illegal, and then they can tell him "no" without worrying about their job.

And good man for standing up to him too. I hate seeing crap man management, how some people get these positions is something I'll never understand.

.

[Biker Biggles]

This sort of "management" is rife these days,and not only in small enterprises.The real problem is people's perception that although they have rights,standing up for them and enforcing them is likely to lead to more problems in the future.It's relatively easy for employers to dismiss staff in Britain for all sorts of reasons,often quite spurious,provided they don't breach certain procedures.Getting redress in a Tribunal is a long hard slog with no guarantee of success and often very poor compensation,capped by statute.
No wonder the bullies get away with it.

[Jools'SV Now]

I reported my boss for fraudulently manipulating customer payments.

Fraud dept confronted her with it, she admitted it, resigned on the spot.

Company refused to accept her resignation and re-instated her as my boss 2 days later.

Genius. :?

She was later promoted and had overall control of cash and banking for the entire company.

Must have given REALLY good head :smt031

[Red ones]

he doesnt give a sh*t, it's my fault for being tired, and that it's not his problem that I'll have to drive home at exhausted at 4am (after doing 8:30am to 5pm in the office).

On the contrary, it is his problem if you have an accident. If the working practice he has imposed has contributed to the cause of the accident, whether it be at work or outside then he can be held accountable through vicarious liability. It also sounds like a breach of the working time directive, you are entitled to a 11 hour break between shifts, exemption from the directive can only be made by declaration, it cannot be written into contract or implied - you have to agree in writing SPECIFICALLY to be exempt.

I would argue the toss and see where it goes - hold out for a **** up and claim he was unreasonable etc. Go to teh cleaners

[skint]

it is an injustice, rude, unfair and yes unreasonable. Unfair dismissal is not an option because it hasn't happened as I read it. Had you not already handed in your notice you may have been able to seek constructive dismissal through an industrial tribunal but don't assume that because you believe that you are a victim that you could take such action without costs. The English legal system I'm afraid.

The 'throw a sicky' late in the day seems the best two finger action :twisted: but other than that try to see the bigger picture - life is too short in these circumstances since you are leaving 8) . Pursuing this may actually make you feel worse, more stressed and so on. :(

I have dealt with a couple of similar situations - sadly, none have been as simple as you would expect.

I despise bullying and if you were staying it may be a different story for you. Incidentally was this geezer always an assh*le or just in this case?

Good luck with your next position

[skint]

Oops sorry my last post was way too late - should have read previous page first.

I think and the end of the day you took the best course of action.

In terms of the 6 month contract rule I understand it applies to employee as wel and includes changes to contracts and work practices which may not be in writing.

...and there is no legal requirement for any contract to be in writing the bottom line is being able to prove a position if you only have a verbal agreement.