Government's response to a petition

[Ceri JC]

From http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10777.asp

Original petiton:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to freeze all speeding fines levied against motorcyclists until such time that the Government tests and approves all speed detection equipment for use specifically on motorcycles."

Govt's response:

Speed measuring devices used by the police to produce evidence for court have to be of a type approved by the Secretary of State. The UK "type-approval" process is extremely rigorous and involves both operational and laboratory testing. Details of the type approval process are laid down in the Speedmeter Handbook, available on the Home Office website:

Police equipment and technology link:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/speed_detection.pdf

It is probably the most rigorous process of its kind in the world, and is very highly regarded. Manufacturers selling their equipment in other countries are keen to proclaim its UK type-approved status. The Home Secretary only type approves devices that highly qualified and experienced Home Office scientific advisers are satisfied have passed the demanding requirements of the type approval process.

We should explain the two stages of the type approval system which all speed measuring devices must successfully complete before they can be used by the police for enforcement. The equipment is initially tested by the police as if in full operational use although, of course, no prosecutions are brought during the testing period. Once the police are satisfied that devices are of a sufficient standard to meet their needs the responsibility for testing passes to the Home Office Scientific Development Branch (HOSDB).

HOSDB's requirements cover such issues as storage, operating temperatures, portability, durability, weather proofing, and electro-magnetic compatibility as well as obvious matters such as accuracy and reliability. Independent scientific test houses carry out the testing. Only when a device has passed all these tests will a type approval Order be signed so that the police can use it for prosecution.

There is no condition on the type approval of any enforcement device that it cannot be used on motorcycles. HOSDB do not carry out specific tests of speed measuring devices on motorcycles as there are no technical reasons to believe they present new technical challenges not present with all other types of vehicle. The type approval process does however include, as well as laboratory tests of compliance with specifications, extensive operational trials by the police. In these all vehicles on the road are tested, including motorcycles.

We are satisfied that all devices currently in use merit their type-approved status and irrespective of the type of vehicle detected exceeding the speed limit, if they are used in line with any conditions laid down in their type approval order, with the manufacturers' instructions and with ACPO's Road Policing Enforcement Technology Code of Practice for Operation Use, they can be relied on to produce accurate readings.

Given this thorough approach to testing, the Government does not believe that there are grounds for freezing speeding fines levied against motorcyclists until speed detection equipment has been tested and approved by an independent body for use on motorcycles.

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I'm not very happy with the first in bold bit for obvious reasons.

I'd also be interested to see details of the operational testing by the police. I suspect it's nowhere near extensive enough (because if it were, the reason for this petition would never have arisen).

The second bold bit is a bit rubbish, because prosecutions can still be brought to bear even if these guidelines (and they are only guidelines) were not being followed at the time.

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To all the "shouldn't have been speeding" lot. Please, sod off. This petition was brought about because it was proven that people had been 'caught speeding' on motorcycles, when they hadn't actually been speeding, because the guns (by some police officer's own admission) don't work too well on bikes. It's not about people weaseling out of deserved speeding fines (although some undoubtedly would try to). It's about the poor swine caught doing 20mph faster than they were.

[northwind]

It needs solid demonstrable evidence to back it up- ie a runway, a few speed cameras and a bunch of bikes. IIRC it's mainly one or two "This policeman saids" which isn't really enough. I don;t think the petition was well worded at all, for that matter. Should've been "We the undersigned... come to light that may be inaccurate vs bikes... type approval doesn't specifically test bikes... home office position that all vehicles are the same shown to be suspect... type approval withdrawn until effectiveness vs bikes has been demonstrated not assumed."

[embee]

HOSDB do not carry out specific tests of speed measuring devices on motorcycles as there are no technical reasons to believe they present new technical challenges not present with all other types of vehicle.

Errrm, now let me see, motorcycle frontal area, frontal area of transit van, bike in front of van, bike below speed limit, van above............ :-k

[Ceri JC]

It needs solid demonstrable evidence to back it up- ie a runway, a few speed cameras and a bunch of bikes. IIRC it's mainly one or two "This policeman saids" which isn't really enough. I don;t think the petition was well worded at all, for that matter. Should've been "We the undersigned... come to light that may be inaccurate vs bikes... type approval doesn't specifically test bikes... home office position that all vehicles are the same shown to be suspect... type approval withdrawn until effectiveness vs bikes has been demonstrated not assumed."

I agree with your rewording being better.

I would also like one of the magazines to do a definitive (well, as definitive as it can be) test of it.
3 of each of the different guns, calibrated and operated by serving speed enforcement officers. A runway and dozens of different bikes/riders/leathers (matt black leathers cause no end of problems for the guns). Datalogging GPS for each bike's rideby, so there's no question as to the real speed. All 3 officers take a reading with the same type of gun. As well as showing if the readings are off, it'd help show discrepency between individual guns.

Test each bike at different speeds (say, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 90, 100, 130, 160), do it in a straight line, repeat with the bike taking an imaginary curve, etc.

Perhaps a letter to Bike on the matter?

[Ceri JC]

HOSDB do not carry out specific tests of speed measuring devices on motorcycles as there are no technical reasons to believe they present new technical challenges not present with all other types of vehicle.

Errrm, now let me see, motorcycle frontal area, frontal area of transit van, bike in front of van, bike below speed limit, van above............ :-k

The fact that they say "believe" is a bit worrying. You should be able to state things as definitive fact if you're going to make statements like that. Bringing belief into it makes it a bit "airy fairy".

[andy]

I would also like one of the magazines to do a definitive (well, as definitive as it can be) test of it.3 of each of the different guns, calibrated and operated by serving speed enforcement officers. A runway and dozens of different bikes/riders/leathers (matt black leathers cause no end of problems for the guns). Datalogging GPS for each bike's rideby, so there's no question as to the real speed. All 3 officers take a reading with the same type of gun. As well as showing if the readings are off, it'd help show discrepency between individual guns.

Test each bike at different speeds (say, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 90, 100, 130, 160), do it in a straight line, repeat with the bike taking an imaginary curve, etc.

That is exactly what MCN and any other organisation that is making money or stirring up these inaccuracies (which have been known about for years - I remember them being spoken about back in 1988) should be putting their time and effort into.

If the test is done well and presented properly it would be impossible for the Government to ignore it and even better the general public would use it as a way to get speed cameras seriously rethought.

Come on MCN, it would be really easy for you to organise, alternatively give me 12 assorted sportsbikes and a runway and I will sort the rest :-)

[on yer bike]

I would also like one of the magazines to do a definitive (well, as definitive as it can be) test of it.3 of each of the different guns, calibrated and operated by serving speed enforcement officers. A runway and dozens of different bikes/riders/leathers (matt black leathers cause no end of problems for the guns). Datalogging GPS for each bike's rideby, so there's no question as to the real speed. All 3 officers take a reading with the same type of gun. As well as showing if the readings are off, it'd help show discrepency between individual guns.

Test each bike at different speeds (say, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 90, 100, 130, 160), do it in a straight line, repeat with the bike taking an imaginary curve, etc.

That is exactly what MCN and any other organisation that is making money or stirring up these inaccuracies (which have been known about for years - I remember them being spoken about back in 1988) should be putting their time and effort into.

If the test is done well and presented properly it would be impossible for the Government to ignore it and even better the general public would use it as a way to get speed cameras seriously rethought.

Come on MCN, it would be really easy for you to organise, alternatively give me 12 assorted sportsbikes and a runway and I will sort the rest :-)
I could possibly get u a runway for a windy weekday afternoon (used for ambulance training on mornings, used by gliders on weekends... but used by r/c aircraft the rest of the time, which don't like wind much. hence windy weekday afternoon) but I'd have to speak 2 both the airfield managers and the rc club. it's not that big 1km i think and is an active airfield although its a disused runway, so could be a problem. u get the bikes, the cameras, and some officials to make sure the tests are accurate and some bike reporters etc (mcn if u want, but does anybody trust them). and let me know an I'll have a chat with them. but it is up in sunny scotland... another excuse for a ride out

[embee]

.....plus you need to test with other traffic and street furniture, trees, all carefully planned in combinations................... :idea:

[ejohnh]

The fact that a bike doesn't present a 'solid' figure to a radar gun must have a bearing. I tend to fidget a lot when I ride so my refelctions must be all over the place.
John

[Ceri JC]

The fact that a bike doesn't present a 'solid' figure to a radar gun must have a bearing. I tend to fidget a lot when I ride so my refelctions must be all over the place.
John

Apparently, head on, naked bikes (and most sportsbikes with slim fairings) don't really have anything to reliably aim at, so they often aim for the rider's torso. Black leathers/textiles, particularly matt black leather causes the gun no end of problems.

I suspect the police's "extensive testing" consisted of zapping a few (considerably larger) white and high vis pans with riders sat bolt upright in high vis and unsurprisingly getting fairly accurate results.

[northwind]

Perhaps a letter to Bike on the matter?

TWO and PB, I reckon. And maybe MCN. PB would do it out of sheer malice, TWO like that sort of thing.