Speaking of the law

[Kinvig]

this makes me a bit angry (taken from an article on the BBC website):



"The National DNA Database was set up in 1995.
Before 2001, the police could take DNA samples during investigations but had to destroy these, and records derived from them, if suspects were acquitted or charges were not proceeded with. The law was changed in 2001 to remove this requirement, and changed again in 2004 so that DNA samples could be taken from anyone arrested for a recordable offence and detained in a police station."

I'm completely against the idea any law that could enable the police to hold DNA information of an individual that has been acquitted of an offence and has no previous convictions. Kinda smacks of a police state and I *really* hate the argument, "If you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to fear", if I've done nothing wrong I should be treated like a law abiding citizen. Not a potential criminal.

Wonder if they took dna from that Tomb Raider bloke?

[MiniMatt]

Oh this is the topic that really turns me into a rabid badger. Yes, you can be DNA tested for just about any arrestable offence, man woman or child, and even if you're subsequently and rapidly found to have no connection to the offence in question and released without charge, your DNA will still be on the database for the rest of time.

[MiniMatt]

Oh, and at the end of 2005 (ie. two years ago, it'll be a lot more by now) there were over half a million children on the database. Oh, and 37% of all black men were on it, which understandably raised some concerns.

[injury_ian]

I think its a jolly good idea, if it helps track down one of lifes scum any quicker im all for it!

[DanDare]

Thought ths thread was about the Stealthster! ;)

[MiniMatt]

And lets look two years down the road, the DNA database will be tied into the Automatic Numberplate Recognition database, and the ID card database, and lets not forget the facial recognition CCTV network. Your every movement is tracked, and recorded. For all time. Whether you've done anything wrong or not.

But of course, if you've got nothing to hide....

(sorry, rabid badger something of an understatement)

[Fizzy Fish]

hmmm, i understand your concerns on this one, and realise that some people who are acquitted are innocent. however this isn't always the case, maybe they were let off due to lack of evidence for example.
so weighing up the benefits (e.g. greater chance of convictions for crimes) vs the cons, I'm afraid i come down on the side of the DNA database...

*prepares for onslaught* :lol:

[Ping]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about.

Tbh I wouldn't mind being on a database if it meant they could identify me from a dismembered toe or something because the rest of me was vapourised... or unrecognisable mush, which in light of 9/11 isn't such an impossible thing these days... :smt107

[Baph]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about.

Tbh I wouldn't mind being on a database if it meant they could identify me from a dismembered toe or something because the rest of me was vapourised... or unrecognisable mush, which in light of 9/11 isn't such an impossible thing these days... :smt107
+1

Where do I send my sample to?

I have no problems with my DNA being on the DB, so long as they comply with DPA Section 6 (ie, don't spam mail me!)

Lets take it to an extreme. Say someone accuses me of rape, and they get DNA from that person. The database could easily rule me out without them having to so much as knock on my door!!

[Kinvig]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about.

Tbh I wouldn't mind being on a database if it meant they could identify me from a dismembered toe or something because the rest of me was vapourised... or unrecognisable mush, which in light of 9/11 isn't such an impossible thing these days... :smt107

But 9/11, toe dismemberment etc is not a normal everyday occurance. It's a one in a billion event.

I'm sure that if it was an identification thing then a comparison could be made with my immedaite family.

There was a girl murdered down the road from me ages ago (A terrible incident) & the police started going round the houses collecting dna from everyone. I was really unhappy about this for 3 reasons:

1. It wasn't me, innocent till guilty
2. Collecting dna at times like that is a bit wrong - the neighbourhood was in shock & it seemed like the police were obtaining dna by stealth as everyone wanted to do their bit ro help OR be seen to do their bit to help.
3. The samples wouldthen be recorded on a database somewhere for all time. They would not be removed after innocence had been PROVEN.

[MiniMatt]

Let off through lack of evidence is precisely that, there is not the evidence to prove this person is guilty, therefore they're innocent. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. And people are arrested for all sorts of things, not necessarily because they're suspect in a crime but because they're close to it.

If someone's tipped off the police that your housemate is growing gear in the loft then they'll probably come and arrest anyone in the house then sort it out later. I do support this action, it makes sense, you'll then be released without charge. Doesn't mean you were "let off", probably guilty but they couldn't make it stick because of legal technicalities.

[Razor]

That George Orwell, how he must chuckle. Wherever he is...

[MiniMatt]

It's also the way it will change policing. For example, lets say one day you take a taxi trip. Two weeks later some scrote murders the taxi driver in his cab. Currently the police would recover all hair samples found and then follow the evidence, once they've found a potential suspect they'll compare hair samples.

However, with everyone on the DNA database the procedure will be to gather all hair samples then go arrest everyone found on suspicion of murder; then sort out who has the alibi or not. It's admittedly a lot quicker resolution but it won't stop the police coming to arrest you at your place of work on suspicion of murder.

[timwilky]

Interesting as DNA techniques have now evolved enough to be able to identify a dna record as being a blood relative of a test sample.

Therefore if you go out to commit a crime safe in the knowledge that your dna is not on record. Think, is my brothers/fathers/sisters etc. I beleve a number of serious cases have been solved by not looking for exact matches but near ones.

[silent]

working from the inside of this debate on occasion, it is an imensly helpful tool. If you are innocent then how is it going to be bad? data protection stops the police sharing this info as far as i am aware other than with other law enforcement agencies.

the amount of people caught by the fingerprinting and dna testing far outweighs the disadvantages in my eyes.

andy

[Kinvig]

Well, I always untick the boxes on forms that say, "Please send me details of your othe promotions" because I dont' want my private personal details on someone elses system.

If you are innocent then how is it going to be bad?


Innocent till proven guilty for a start. I imagine that every time there is a crime & there is dna at the scene, the police run a comparison check therefore they are running a test to prove innocence. You are guilty till we have discounted you.

[slark01]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about.

Tbh I wouldn't mind being on a database if it meant they could identify me from a dismembered toe or something because the rest of me was vapourised... or unrecognisable mush, which in light of 9/11 isn't such an impossible thing these days... :smt107

+2
I'm not paranoid enough to believe we will end up suffering a Police state.
There are too many people that will prevent it from happening.

[Razor]

+2
There are too many people that will prevent it from happening.

Of course I agree, somebody else will look out for our civil liberties. Hurrah!

[Baph]

Well, I always untick the boxes on forms that say, "Please send me details of your othe promotions" because I dont' want my private personal details on someone elses system.



Innocent till proven guilty for a start. I imagine that every time there is a crime & there is dna at the scene, the police run a comparison check therefore they are running a test to prove innocence. You are guilty till we have discounted you.

Look at it the other way around. They're running the search to determine who COULD of done it. The DB search just gives them a list of possibles to weed the guilty out from.

[Spiderman]

Innocent till proven guilty is another myth that ha not existed in this country for a good many years now.

Accused, and probably guilty, unless you defence can prove otherwise is closer to the real truth.

Right to silence removed by stealthily changing the law a number of years back too.

Without too much detail, mainly cos it was trivial and dull, i got nicked a few years ago by the cops i called 999 for simply cos they took the side of the girl with tears in her eyes. And i was DNA'd and fingerprinted.
In court the CPS stood up to say they wish to withdraw the case as they "had no evidence to offer". So a complete waste of my and the courts' time but at least the cops have my DNA now so they're happy cos they got a result.
I asked the jusge if i can now have my fingerprint and dna data removed as i was arrested mistaken for the other person who was also at the scene at the time.
No, i can apply to the courts/home secretary for my fingerprints to be removed but i have no right over the DNA database.
Pathetic!!
And i have nothing to fear but an incompetant Govt who make it easier for hardened crims to get away with real bad crimes and do nothing to tackle the real problems of street crime. I have a problem with a Govt who justify the new laws they pass with fear and exageration and them use those laws againt those they were never intended for.
So tho i've done nothing wrong i SHOULD have nothign to fear. But a useless Govt itself.

[slark01]

Question is... does having your DNA and fingerprints affect the way you live.
Well if your into criminal activities then yes, but if your not into doing anything boneheaded then it will not affect you.
Most but not all people that harp on about civil liberties etc are usually hiding something. I agree that there is a limit, but what is it, can anyone say how far the police or government can go before they have crossed the line.

[emcf]

sorry for the delay...i was busy picking the splinters out my rear end from sitting on the fence on this topic.

i have not had my dna taken yet (to the best of my knowledge). the arguments regarding people who get let off due to poor evidence and the possibility that innocence could quickly be proved in the event of a false accusation are quite attractive to me. therefore, perhaps on balance, the DNA recording and retention when arrested is a good idea.

however....if my dna had been taken then i would be concerned about the potential for abuse to occur. and i also think it could be construed as an attack on the doctrine of innocent until proven guilty. and being a conspiracy theorist at heart, the thought of big brother government happening by a series of small steps, of which this is one, worries me.



i just don't know.......

[james160987]

mweh, america has my fingerprints, im not to bothered, had to give them to get into the country, wouldnt really care if i had to give them here, but i wouldnt take my own free time to do it

[Kinvig]

mweh, america has my fingerprints, im not to bothered, had to give them to get into the country, wouldnt really care if i had to give them here, but i wouldnt take my own free time to do it

Don't get me started on that one!

Fingerprint scans, iris scans....but the yanks don't haveto when they enter/leave - so they're saying that only foreigners are responsible for all their terrorism?

Pretty sure taht all those school kids looked terrorised befoer they died. The yank syatem does not work.

...and as for ID cards preventing terrorism in the UK, do me a favour. What's the ID card going to do - ring the police if I have a backbpack full of fertilizer?


argh! I'm ranting & it's not even 7.30am.

[beniryu]

Can you all please send me samples of your hair in little sealed bags. If one day I decide to murder someone I'll pick one at random and sprinkle the contents all over the crime scene :D