View Full Version : Jamie Bulger. petition
i dont normally sign these petitions, but feel this needs to be signed
http://www.petitiononline.com/bulger1/petition.html
Do you remember February 1993 when a young boy of 3 was taken from a Liverpool shopping centre by two 10-year-old boys?
Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second, Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson.
They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy.
Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes, pushed batteries up his anus and cut his fingers off with scissors. Other mutilations were inflicted but not reported in the press.
What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body.
They then left his beaten small body on railway tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created.
These two boys, even being boys, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident.
This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities.
They will also leave custody early only serving just over half of their sentence. They are being relocated to Australia to live out the rest of their lives. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away and in return they each get a new life!
MASSIVE (6 FIGURE) payment they where both awarded as they were tried in a crown court and NOT a youth court.
Also, their family's were awarded HUGE payments for the costs of their houses, loss of income etc due to their sons crimes.
taken from another site, but i feel stongly about this
MODS if you feel this is inapropate feel free to delete
Captain Nemo
23-05-07, 11:10 AM
words escape me.
DanDare
23-05-07, 11:10 AM
Jeez, I had no idea what they put that kid through. I thought they just threw stones at him which killed him. Thats pretty f***ing digusting.
How the hell can Kids at that age have so much anger and evil in them. :(
sorry to pour cold water on this, but i believe this to be a pointless petition. unless my facts are wrong, the two boys have already been released.
i am more than happy to be corrected of course.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blbulger.htm
i thought i read they had been relesed a while ago, but was not was not sure?
Luckypants
23-05-07, 11:28 AM
Something from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1394595.stm
MiniMatt
23-05-07, 11:46 AM
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I also have to hold out hope in rehabilitation. They were 10. Not an excuse but surely a factor, and if anyone can be rehabilitated then it's a 10 year old. They have the opportunity to make something of their lives for the betterment of society, something they took away from Jamie Bulger.
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I also have to hold out hope in rehabilitation. They were 10. Not an excuse but surely a factor, and if anyone can be rehabilitated then it's a 10 year old. They have the opportunity to make something of their lives for the betterment of society, something they took away from Jamie Bulger.
i totally disagree with you.
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I'm sure that his parents would vastly prefer them to be away from the rest of society for the rest of their lives.
I don't see why the UK doesn't operate a sort of prison-gang workforce. Yes it'd need more policing, and some inmates aren't good candidates for it, but I know full well that some prisoners work in HMPS warehouses.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that they should be ousted to the public either, they are human afterall, and should be protected as such, but they don't deserve freedom IMO either.
They could make a useful contribution to society by building houses etc whilst under the watchful eye of an armed guard.
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I also have to hold out hope in rehabilitation. They were 10. Not an excuse but surely a factor, and if anyone can be rehabilitated then it's a 10 year old. They have the opportunity to make something of their lives for the betterment of society, something they took away from Jamie Bulger.
the optimist in me agrees with you, the pessimist doesnt! for now the optimist is winning, i still hold out hope that offenders can be rehabilitated. however the more i read of whats going on in the world the more the pessimist gains strength.
I'm with MiniMatt on this one.
Prison is there for punishment & rehabilitation.
A petition like the one above is for the mob rule mentality. The petitions states
"One paper even stated that Robert may go on to a University." And? If they've served their time for a crime what should they do next?
"They are getting away with their crime." Erm, they went to prison for more time than they had lived outside of prison.
"If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!" Speculation. I imaigne many things, what it would be like to win th lottery, doesn't mean it's going to happen...
The crime was absolutely shocking, appalling & degrading to poor Jamie. But they have since been punished. Nothing will ever bring Jamie Bulger back.
Move on.
I'm with MiniMatt on this one.
Prison is there for punishment & rehabilitation.
A petition like the one above is for the mob rule mentality. The petitions states
"One paper even stated that Robert may go on to a University." And? If they've served their time for a crime what should they do next? dunno? but sending them to oz with a pile of cash seems wrong.
"They are getting away with their crime." Erm, they went to prison for more time than they had lived outside of prison.no they did,nt
"If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!" Speculation. I imaigne many things, what it would be like to win th lottery, doesn't mean it's going to happen... true......
The crime was absolutely shocking, appalling & degrading to poor Jamie. But they have since been punished. Nothing will ever bring Jamie Bulger back.
Move on.tell jamies parants that
would you be ok with them living next door to you if you had small childrun?
I too have to agree strongly with MiniMatt and Kinvig on this. Rehabilitation of offenders has to be the goal of a civilised and intelligent society. In my opinion wanting revenge on somebody who has done wrong makes you as bad as the wrong doer (same as I believe capital punishment for murder is (state sanctioned) murder as well). The two boys have been punished quite severely according to the law of this country. They were 10 years old when they committed the crime. One of the boys has/had learning difficulties and was very much under the influence of the other. A little bit of understanding goes a long way in terms of us learning and perhaps preventing such crimes in the future.
IMO what we should be hoping for is that these two young men have been rehabilitated and can now make a useful contribution to society.
And yes I would still belive this if my 2 year old angel of a granddaughter was a victim of such a crime (what's a non-religious way of saying God forbid?).
Steve H
23-05-07, 01:00 PM
I would like to agree, but the nature of the crime was enough to tell me that people like that are beyond, no, don't deserve, rehabilitation.
In this case, the answer would have been lethal injection.
That is my opinion and i am entitled to it, whatever this current Government may think.
It is interesting to note that out of all the places they could have been sent, we seem to still be sending our criminals to Australia. :roll:
Not trying to sound frivilous - just a thought is all.
gettin2dizzy
23-05-07, 06:29 PM
Those online petitions work so well too! ;) I'm glad we're living in a democracy...
slark01
23-05-07, 08:14 PM
I don't know the full details of the case or what has happened recently, so for me it is hard to say much of anything.
I certainly don't know whether the children have changed or not.
What I do know is that if the 2 children had killed an adult then there would have been less anger from people in general, If they had served their full term again less anger, If they had not gone to Australia or their families no been compensated etc etc.
I understand that some people want revenge and that others believe that we should forgive. But without the full knowledge on each individual it is hard for me to say whether they deserve capital punishment or inprisonment for a period of time.
Don't get me wrong i'm no bleeding heart liberal and my friends will tell you, but getting the facts first is very important.
Said enough now due to the fact I could ramble on for hours, which is not good at all.
Right on clap trap in my opinion. These people were animals. I am not allowed to move to Australia because I am not skilled/clever enough .... ironic really.
I am a forgiving person, in most circumstances, but this was treatment that was not worthy of an animal. So what if they spent more time in prison then out, good, let them rot. I don't want them anywhere near my children.
Compensation my ar*e
rehabilitation my ar*e (in this case)
Australia my ar*e.
This makes me very angry. :smt013
signed x
I'm ambivalent about this one, but I have to question whether this is all just a hit-gathering experiment for the website builders behind it, who haven't even been able to check they've spelt Jamie Bulger correctly on the front page.
Somehow I doubt signing or not signing will make any difference.
Scooby Drew
23-05-07, 08:36 PM
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I also have to hold out hope in rehabilitation. They were 10. Not an excuse but surely a factor, and if anyone can be rehabilitated then it's a 10 year old. They have the opportunity to make something of their lives for the betterment of society, something they took away from Jamie Bulger.
well said
CoolGirl
23-05-07, 08:47 PM
As a public servant, working to give the low-skilled, workless and those overlooked/failed by society the opportunity to get up on their feet, do well and make a contribution, I have to disagree with this.
MiniMatt and Messie have articulated really well the reasoning behind it. But here are some more crude thoughts.
Think about it the other way around - for example, if you lost your license for speeding in a moment of madness, would you want it taken away for ever? If someone close to you, for whatever reason (and it does happen - something drug-related, perhaps), slipped off the edge of society and committed a terrible act, would you want them to be made to pay for their crime and given the chance to get back on their feet, with help to do so, or would you want them written off, even killed? There but for accident of birth, grace of Messie's non-christan God, whatever, go we all.
What's proposed gives society a get-out for it's mistakes. Serial killers are a very rare phenomenon. If anything's to blame here it's the cycle of deprivation and societal attitude that made the parents bring up children that were capable of the crime. I expect they are some of the low-skilled, workless people we're trying to help. Without support and rehab, that cycle is hard to break. I could go on about gang culture here, but that's for another time.
sorry but speeding & this
"Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes, pushed batteries up his anus and cut his fingers off with scissors. Other mutilations were inflicted but not reported in the press."
are totaly differant
CoolGirl
23-05-07, 09:07 PM
sorry but speeding & this
"Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes, pushed batteries up his anus and cut his fingers off with scissors. Other mutilations were inflicted but not reported in the press."
are totaly differant
Quite right, but it's the principle of served time, rehab and reintegration that I was trying to convey. The magnitude of the crimes and punishments may be different, but the process remains the same.
fizzwheel
23-05-07, 09:13 PM
Umh.... some strong opinions here...
I can relate to this a little, my friend was killed by a drunk driver last year, this lad was 3 times over the limit, off his face on drugs, had been told by 2 or 3 of his friends not to drive, but didnt listen.
He mowed my friend down when he was on the pavement IIRC the impact speed was somewhere in the region of 60mph. Poor Pete never stood a chance.
What did I think when I heard they'd found him guilty and had been sent away for 4 years. Well thats two families lives f*cked up isnt it.
I think the same about those two boys, they paid a heavy price for what they've done, that price is that they have to carry that around for the rest of their lives knowing what they've done, thats a heavy burden and one that I wouldnt want to carry, whether I was living in Austrailia or not.
Maybe to live with the consequences of what you've done is the biggest punishment of all ?
My young lad is three years old now, my daughter six. I worry like mad if either one of them disappear round a corner and are out of view for more than a few seconds. This is the society that we live in today.
I think that what those two 10 year old boys did was horrific. But they were caught, they have been punished. But most of all, they will have been rehabilitated. They were only 10 years old.
I wont be signing the petition. Not that it will make a blind bit of difference if 50 million people signed it.
northwind
24-05-07, 01:12 AM
We don't do the death sentence. We don't do lynch mobs. And we don't stand by and allow either to happen.
Seriously though, what's the point of this petition? Is it to prove that people will sign anything on the internet, without checking even the most basic facts? Like what year it is? Or whether the reported details of the crime are correct (they're not) or of the sentence (also, not)
At the risk of coming across as the argumentative angry short bloke, I'm afraid I won't be signing this one. Their crimes were abhorent and barbaric and in no way can I condone what they did. But - relocation and anonymity - of course, the only alternative is mob justice. That may indeed be what they deserve but it is not what civilised society does.
I also have to hold out hope in rehabilitation. They were 10. Not an excuse but surely a factor, and if anyone can be rehabilitated then it's a 10 year old. They have the opportunity to make something of their lives for the betterment of society, something they took away from Jamie Bulger.
At the risk of being shot down in flames...............I have worked in child and adolescent psychiatry now for 10 years and I can testify that as society changes along with it's beliefs and values, there are some children who are beyond the realms of rehabilitation.
MiniMatt I envy you for the hope you have in rehabilitation I however feel repulsed and disgusted that these murders are free in society and feel that yet again the british justice system has failed the victim and their family.
All a bit of a moot point really since this is four or five years out of date.
Linky (http://www.hoax-slayer.com/jamie-bulger-email-petition.html)
All a bit of a moot point really since this is four or five years out of date.
Linky (http://www.hoax-slayer.com/jamie-bulger-email-petition.html)
yup, i as i have said, i read this on another forum, & did think they had been let out, but the thread was a new one,i also dont normally bother signing these pertitions, but felt very stongly about this.
IMO what the 2 boys did was evil & dont deserve to be rehabilated.
Steve H
24-05-07, 08:08 AM
You are a load of namby pamby wishy washy Liberals on here. ;)
Hang em high I say. :roll:
Alpinestarhero
24-05-07, 08:14 AM
Jeez, I had no idea what they put that kid through. I thought they just threw stones at him which killed him. Thats pretty f***ing digusting.
How the hell can Kids at that age have so much anger and evil in them. :(
Same here; I didnt know what had happened. I feel quite sick now.
No, really :(
Matt
Maybe to live with the consequences of what you've done is the biggest punishment of all ?
Only if you are truly capable of remorse. I've seen cases where people simply don't feel remorseful (eg, they don't even have the capacity to understand what they've done - think Lenny in "Of Mice & Men" - killing animals etc). If you're not remorseful & are allowed to continue your life, then you're just as likely to commit the same offence again.
My young lad is three years old now, my daughter six. I worry like mad if either one of them disappear round a corner and are out of view for more than a few seconds. This is the society that we live in today.
Slightly OT, and maybe not possible, but I live in a pretty rural area. There are issues with older kids (mainly due to boredom etc) and one certain family. My eldest 2 (8 & 6yrs old) are allowed to wander anywhere they like within a boundary we've discussed with them (like no crossing the road in the village and not going down past the school the other way). If they want to go off our street, they take a 2way radio (we've four of them that work on the same frequency).
They see it as cool, and can hit the "alarm" button if anything happens. We can also talk to them whenever & they can talk to us. Gives them a little freedom to go & be kids without adults being around, but also keeps them safe.
I've considered wiring them with GPS too though (there's a solution that you can set boundaries on the GPS unit, they go outside the boundaries, the unit informs you by SMS).
My 2yr old isn't allowed out of sight, for obvious reasons.
Filipe M.
24-05-07, 09:20 AM
How the hell can Kids at that age have so much anger and evil in them. :(
I'll probably be shot down in flames for this, but I hope someone understands what I'm trying to convey here (and before anyone starts telling me I don't have a clue about this, I do, I am a father of a 2yo girl and have thought long and hard about this, discussed it with psychologists, etc).
Kids are humans without the society imposed morals and beliefs. Their first instinct when someone doesn't give them what they want is to fight for it, hitting the "offender", looking out for weak spots (anyone noticed how kids aim for the eyes most of the times?). This makes them the closest we'll ever be (or have been) to animals.
The act of "raising" a son/daughter is essentially imposing him/her our (society) views/beliefs about how they should behave in a "human" world, i.e., no hitting, no maiming, no killing, no this, no that, everything that separates us from the animal world. That's why each generation is different from the other, and things that were perfectly acceptable hundreds of years ago are no more. Because deep down, in essence, we are all the same (all of you, remember your last case of road rage, if you had your ways and not a chance in the world to be found out, the offender would have suffered a slow painful death, wouldn't it?...).
Kids at that age (and younger) can and do have that anger and rage, they're called primal instincts. Of course some are worse than others, it's also like that in the animal world, survival of the strongest, the weak have no place. Our job as a society/parents is to make sure those instincts stay well hidden and never rear their ugly head... when they do, this is what happens.
Back on subject, and dated as it is, those kids deserve a chance. Maybe not the way it was dealt with, but they have served their sentence and like BigApe said, they'll have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Serving half time was too little? Probably, but they got out at a time where they still could try and have a "normal" life. Had they been locked up for the full time, they would come out too late in life, which could probably only make things worse.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.
Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.
Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."
So yes, at least one person understood your post ;)
Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.
Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.
Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."
So yes, at least one person understood your post ;)
I'm sorry but I really have to take issue with this. You state this as though it were fact - it is not. It is the psychodynamic THEORY of psychosexual development, originally proposed by Freud in the late 19th century. Many, many (most) psychologists and psychiatrists do not accept Freud's theories as scientifically testable or supported. The concept of instincts is also a disputed and controversial term. Undoubtedly early experience is critical is forming who and what we are, but so is genetic predisposition. However except in the case of extreme and very rare psychological disorder there is always the facility to change, grow and develop as a human being.
I don't wish to sound rude or to offend anyone but I do have nearly 20 years experience as a BPS accredited Psychologist
I'm sorry but I really have to take issue with this. You state this as though it were fact - it is not. It is the psychodynamic THEORY of psychosexual development, originally proposed by Freud in the late 19th century. Many, many (most) psychologists and psychiatrists do not accept Freud's theories as scientifically testable or supported. The concept of instincts is also a disputed and controversial term. Undoubtedly early experience is critical is forming who and what we are, but so is genetic predisposition. However except in the case of extreme and very rare psychological disorder there is always the facility to change, grow and develop as a human being.
I don't wish to sound rude or to offend anyone but I do have nearly 20 years experience as a BPS accredited Psychologist
No offence taken, I posted the above because it was what I was taught (at A-level). The way it was taught came across as fact, but even at the time, I understood well that pretty much ALL area's of psychology are theory. You can pick faults with any study ever performed.
It's all a grey area, nature vs nurture, and to what extent each affects anyone.
EDIT: At least you didn't pick faults with me stating ages, because I'm really fuzzy on that level of detail :D
I also 'understood'! ;) But, at 10 all of these processes should have been established, and we should then be beyond instinctive behaviour.
Excuses for why they did this could come through thick and fast, and in a small way I would like to empathize with them, but my disgust in their behaviour makes me feel that they do not deserve it. After all, lets not forget they are not dead, they have not paid the ultimate price, and Jamie is, thanks to them. Just because time has past, do we really believe that Jamie's family feel any less grief? The death is just a small part of what this little boy endured.
When do we stop helping the criminals, and start making it clear to people that this behaviour is not acceptable ... yes make examples of them, and encourage people to beafraid to do such awful things ....... rehab just is not a deterant
The petition is probably not worth the paper it is written on, but maybe it will go someway to showing how strongly people feel about such situations. And if not, nothing is lost by trying.
Steve H
24-05-07, 10:25 AM
I also 'understood'! ;) But, at 10 all of these processes should have been established, and we should then be beyond instinctive behaviour.
Excuses for why they did this could come through thick and fast, and in a small way I would like to empathize with them, but my disgust in their behaviour makes me feel that they do not deserve it. After all, lets not forget they are not dead, they have not paid the ultimate price, and Jamie is, thanks to them. Just because time has past, do we really believe that Jamie's family feel any less grief? The death is just a small part of what this little boy endured.
When do we stop helping the criminals, and start making it clear to people that this behaviour is not acceptable ... yes make examples of them, and encourage people to beafraid to do such awful things ....... rehab just is not a deterant
The petition is probably not worth the paper it is written on, but maybe it will go someway to showing how strongly people feel about such situations. And if not, nothing is lost by trying.
Well said, Tomcat.
Alpinestarhero
24-05-07, 12:48 PM
Filipe, in technical terms, everyone is born with the "id" part of the brain. Primal urges. You're hungy, you cry. You're wet, you cry. You're tired, you cry, then sleep.
Later (at around 9months or so IIRC), the "ego" starts to form. This constrains the "id" in a way that it modifies behaviour to try & get what you want. For example, Harry (2yr old) will quite happily turn around "I want fridge juice," if he's allowed, he's happy, if he's denied, he'll try several tricks (including sticking bottom lip out & pretending to sulk cheekily) to get what he wants. This is also the "terrible two's" stage.
Later still (IIRC age 3ish) the "super-ego" starts to form. This constrains the "ego" (and therefore the "id") parts of the brain yet more. This time it's more to do with social rules. Things like saying please & thank you initially, but later things like not talking with mouth full, and even (it's theorised) things like rape are affected by the "super-ego."
So yes, at least one person understood your post ;)
Gotta love a bit of freud :cool:
Matt
what they did was disgusting. but they were 10 year old boys. they served their time and im glad they are not in the UK.
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.