Bike won't start.

[muzikill]

Help! bike won't start!
Took the bike for a jet wash today (i know i know this causes a lot of problems for people in here)and afterwards - went to the shops - started fine - stopped off somewhere else - started fine.

Get five minutes up the road and it dies on me! - engine cuts out (exactly the way it does when you have the engine running and you put the stand down)

Now......

There is a immobiliser in the circuit. (but it works fine)

I've noticed the 10a ignition fuse keeps blowing when you turn the the ignition on

(the dash comes up fine although the F1 is lit and it says 'check')

The bike doesnt do the usual 'click whrrr'- totally silent.(this must be the starter relay not having the chance to get some juice before the fuse blows.

Now heres what i have found so far

So test meter at the ready.......

Clutch switch - works fine
Starter relay (works fine, tested with 12v and it 'clicks' on and off and the continuity/no continuity at the terminals works)

Side stand relay tested and works fine but....
The side stand switch is not working - i disconnected it under the fuel tank and put the meter probes in and pushed the switch it to test continuity - not a thing.

Have not tested the ignition switch or ecu but powered up the bike without ecu and the dash didn't do anything.
so i think its working.

Battery died on me before i could start her up to test it without the sidestand switch 'out the loop'

Deductions so far......
I think that the sidestand switch has a broken connection or 'short' that is blowing the fuse (although i checked the cable and it doesn't seem to be 'frayed' - as a 'quick fix' i will plug it back in but cut the end as far away under the tank from the connector and twist them together thereby making the bike think the stand is up.

I have this feeling the sidestand switch is more than just a 'switch' as it is resin sealed and may contain some sort of resistor or diode.

What i have seen so far!

Take your cover off where the clutch arm is and the chain on the small sprocket - the amount of muck in there was terrible! and also i noticed the routing of the cable for the sidestand sensor is pretty poor which may have been the cause for the problem

Any ideas or advice would be appreciated - once i have this sussed then i can help others out with ignition problems.

[the_lone_wolf]

(the dash comes up fine although the F1 is lit and it says 'check')

The bike doesnt do the usual 'click whrrr'- totally silent.(this must be the starter relay not having the chance to get some juice before the fuse blows.
quoth the manual:

"When the display indicates "CHEC", check the following items;

-Make sure that the engine stop switch is the the [correct] position
-Make sure the transmission is in neutral, or the sidestand is fully up

If the display still indicates "CHEC" after above procedure, inspect the ignition fuse and connection of lead wire couplers"

bike won't start with sidestand down, bike thinks faulty switch means stand is down, i think it's clear where this is going

not sure where to go from here though, and a faulty switch shouldn't blow the fuse shirley? otherwise it would blow when you put down the stand...:confused:

[muzikill]

Lead wire couplers? - must be the wires connecting to the starter relay!

Fingers crossed its the sidestand switch, if not i will disconnect the lead wire coming from the starter motor and take that out the equation, who knows maybe its water causing this and may dry out over the next couple of day's.

[muzikill]

hmmm maybe the lead wire couplers are the ones that terminate at the starter relay! haynes manual doesn't give any hints.

If the fuse still blows i will disconnect the lead going to the starter motor and see if that helps! - but i think it's the sidestand switch (but yeah why is the fuse blowing even with this!)

Then check the starter switch on the handlerbars for a short.

Maybe letting it sit over the next couple of day's may 'dry out' the problem (i still think there is a short somewhere)

Thanks btw.

[the_lone_wolf]

no worries, it's always a PITA trying to figure out what's gone wrong when there are so many possibilities, i would say it's likely to be the sidestand switch, but could also be the alarm having a reaction to the wet and cutting off your ignition circuit, letting it dry out well would probably dispel that one...

if the fuse is blowing repeatedly it's doing so to protect the more delicate electrics from damage, so might be better to take it to see someone who knows about bike wiring, because the problem will keep on killing fuses and possibly damage the really sensitive bits like the ECU

without wanting to take the mick, you are absolutely sure you haven't knocked the kill switch when you got off or something, as that would be embarrassing;)

[muzikill]

hah - pretty sure it is not the kill switch! , will see how it goes once i have a topped up battery and stock up on some 10a fuses!

and, maybe i should have a check of the alarm - just in case!

[northwind]

A killswitch being faulty wouldn't usually cause the fuses to blow mind. I'm no good at FI, but if the ignition fuse is popping that suggests a short usually

[Philbo]

Sounds like your on the right track. Resin sealed switches can still get water damaged, and might be pulling the 12V line down to ground...

Do you get any resistance between the disconnetced side stand switch and 0V?

[muzikill]

I disconnected the stand switch at the plug under the fuel tank but the fuse still blows. Found out the stand switch is faulty then as there is no continuity when it is pressed in and out at the plug ends.

Well i checked the continuity from the starter switch back to the side stand relay/diode plug (yellow/green wire) and there was no continuity using a trailing lead and when the relay is unplugged the fuse does not blow.
One thing i did check according to the haynes manual is that the switch works (is heard clicking' when 12v is introduced but the starter relay coil should be resitant to 3 ohms but it's at 0 (coil may have shorted.)

When the side stand relay is unplugged also from the socket(next to the fuse box) the fuse does not blow also - i checked the diodes and they are fine (continuity one way only in the right direction) and the relay clicks when 12v is introduced.

Now what i am going to do is check that the immobiliser has not been cut into the yellow/green wire going to the starter switch on the handle bar - to rule out the possibility that maybe this is where the fault/short is.

what i might do is take out the alarm/immobiliser totally and re-wire the bike back to factory state in case the alarm/immobiliser is at fault.

Weird thing happened, when i reconnected the battery postive and the lead going to the starter motor from the starter relay after the bike sitting for a while it did a split second 'startup turn' as if the starter button had been pressed.

I'm trying so hard here!

[kcowgergmm]

northwind i want you to buy a pointy so you can become an expert on them like you are the curvy

[muzikill]

Ehhrrr, it is a pointy i have!!

[Philbo]

OK, sounds to me like the sidestand switch circuit and start switch circuits are red herrings. Can you confirm that the fuse does not blow if everyhting is back to normal and in circuit, but the side stand relay has been removed?

If so I think we can rule out the interlocks and associated circuits. (Clutch switch, side stand, etc.)

It would make sense that with the relay out the starter circuit is disabled...so no starter circuit no blown fuse...I think you need to look closer at circuit supplied by the sidestand relay rather than the circuit controlling the relay.

TBH I really need a schematic to be of any real help here! I can only guess at what the circuit is trying to do, and if you don't KNOW that, your on a hiding to nothing trying to fault find.

I'll see if I can find one in the .org pages.

Good luck mean time!

[muzikill]

Well sorted the shorting out (poor tape up job by the alarm fitter so took all the tape off and powered the bike up and yeeha! so must have been a loose wire or short) just need to sort out the stand switch / cutoff - as lowering and raising the stand (stand interlock) does nothing - but the bike still starts! - im sure this is not right!
Either the side stand relay's goosed or the stand switch / cutoff is - or both!
it's weird the the bike still starts! - unless this is meant to happen in an emergency if your on the road.

I heard Northwind's good at electrics too. (any advice?)

[northwind]

Yeah, don't let me do any soldering :) I can get through electrical stuff, but it's not really my strongpoint...

[muzikill]

<-- electrician

Well thats the problems sussed, here's the story

no fault relays / big parts etc...i know how to check the now.

Dodgy tape up job on the bike alarm caused the short/blown 10a ignition fuse all the time, took off the tape and checked the wires connected into by the alarm and re-taped and sealed the lot.
Also, the side stand switch is faulty and there is no continuity when the stand is up, therefore the bike can start in neutral but when the stand is up and you select first the bike cuts off as it thinks the stand is still down. To temporarily stop this from happening until a replacement stand switch has been sourced and fitted the plug at the end of the switch has been cut a few inches before it plugs into the socket under the tank, the cables ends bared and twisted, put into a connector block and taped up which makes the bike think the circuit is closed eg. the stand is up.
The gears can be selected and the bike can now be riden. (but get it fixed!)

Costs
£9 for a replacement side stand switch from the breakers.
£10 for a electric meter/tester
£3 in 10a fuses until i found the fault
60p for black electrical insulating tape
Haynes & suzuki workshop manuals.

(How much would that have cost to take it to a garage eh?)

Points to remember .

Don't clean the back end of the bike with a power washer! do it by hand afterwards the sv is not watertight at the back end and tbh the factory waterproof coverings on the electrics are very poor (this could be a future project!)
Don't direct the waterjet into the side-stand switch! it may be resin sealed but not enough!

If you have had a alarm / immob fitted check it and see that the connections are good and its been taped correctly.

Make sure there are spare fuses.

Take the cover off where the gear selector / cable and the front sprocket/ chain meet and clean it out! - lots of muck collect there.


If anyone has any problems with ignition / starting give me a shout, got it sussed and beyond that point most of the electrics now!

Thanks for the help and advice!

Now to learn how to carb-tune!

[muzikill]

Well, sorted the bike today, and other things

it seems that after a sqoosh of wd in a couple of connectors seems to have settled down the fuse blowing problem.

Replaced the side stand switch and the starter relay/coil (really easy), honestly i think the problem with the ignition fuse blowing was actually the side stand switch, it's not like a normal switch as it contains a diode as some sort of safeguard to stop current flowing back the way (the ingnition circuit has a few of them by the way) so i think the problem was that having the side stand switch defunct too much current was 'bunching up' with nowhere to go and that was causing it to blow.

a few more other pointers on the way.

discovered the gear linkage was loose beside where the clutch cable connects behind the plastic cover to the left of the stand (tightened it, that could have been nasty!)

Greased the linkages at the key points as it was dry as fook! - also did the levers etc..

And gave the chain a brush clean for good measure (the difference in the 'feel' of gear changes is crazy, so much smoother & spot on)

ta for all the advice so far and hope some of these pointers get's some of you lot 'do more' on your bike.

To all those who dont do at least a basic service eg. grease / wear & tear check, be warned!