Babylon

[gettin2dizzy]

Just found this article about the American troops having set up a base in the ancient city of Babylon.
Makes me sick to the bones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1391042,00.html

[Steve H]

G.D.Y's eh? #-o

[keithd]

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad, and Maev Kennedy
Saturday January 15, 2005


quite an old story then.

babylons burning

[Baph]

Sorry. What's more important?

Finding out about the layout of buildings, the type of pottery & the money used many years ago.

Or is it keeping people alive whilst they're under fire from bullets & morters etc.

Hmm. :confused:

EDIT: In years to come, archeologists will have a field day (pardon the pun) working out what happend with all the heavy machinery destroying stuff.

[Filipe M.]

Sorry. What's more important?

Finding out about the layout of buildings, the type of pottery & the money used many years ago.

Or is it keeping people alive whilst they're under fire from bullets & morters etc.

Hmm. :confused:

Pottery, of course.

[MiniMatt]

I'd be tempted to argue at that point that they could have done both by not invading to find the magical mythical weapons of mass destruction in the first place....

[Baph]

I'd be tempted to argue at that point that they could have done both by not invading to find the magical mythical weapons of mass destruction in the first place....
Before the invasion, could you personally gurantee that the invasion was pointless? Or was it an educated guess.

If it was the latter, then miltary strategic points come first, archeology later.

[MiniMatt]

Before the invasion, could you personally gurantee that the invasion was pointless? Or was it an educated guess.

If it was the latter, then miltary strategic points come first, archeology later.

Ok, put it this way, imagine the war didn't go too well, imagine Saddam Hussein pushed us all the way back and occupied England (hell, you declare war and this is always a possibility). Imagine, after dragging Queeny and Tony out of their hidey holes and hanging them, they set up military bases at Stonehenge and Buckingham Palace and trash them in the process - would this action make the native population (us - or terrorists & insurgents as we'll be referred to by our masters) more or less likely to attack the occupying powers? Ie. it's not just bad to archaeology it's a bad idea if you want to keep the native population on your side (and less likely to blow you up).

As for whether the war was justified or not, that's a whole different can of worms. Personally I went to London to march against it before the invasion, along with 1-2 million other people (depending on whose figures you believe), I guess the views on both sides of the debate are now so well entrenched there's not really any point in going over the same material as we'll only wind eachother up :D

[Baph]

Ok, put it this way, imagine the war didn't go too well, imagine Saddam Hussein pushed us all the way back and occupied England (hell, you declare war and this is always a possibility). Imagine, after dragging Queeny and Tony out of their hidey holes and hanging them, they set up military bases at Stonehenge and Buckingham Palace and trash them in the process - would this action make the native population (us - or terrorists & insurgents as we'll be referred to by our masters) more or less likely to attack the occupying powers? Ie. it's not just bad to archaeology it's a bad idea if you want to keep the native population on your side (and less likely to blow you up).

Again, for those defending position, military strategic points come first. That has no baring on the motives for native people to the area wanting to blow up the occupiers IMO.

True brainwashed terrorists, yes, could well be influenced... "They've destroyed our <insert building here> lets go kill them for it!"

In the situation given, I'd want them out for the sake of having a free country, not because they'd setup camp at Buckingham Palace.

[Steve H]

I'd be tempted to argue at that point that they could have done both by not invading to find the magical mythical weapons of mass destruction in the first place....

:winner: ...............end of!

[MiniMatt]

Ahh, but remember me and you are not normal :p Think tabloid - ok, there's no free press under occupation - but imagine the typical tabloid reaction if there were. Tabloid reactions don't so much drive mass public opinion but mirror it. Me and you might be driven by "let's get a free country back", and that would be the overwhelming motivation of most I'd wager, but a large proportion of the population would be angered by what could be seen as desecration. It wouldn't be their sole motivation, it would add a further spark of anger to existing motivation.

[Jelster]

:winner: ...............end of!

Not quite...

Those WMD's DID exist at some point. UK and the US paid for them to be built, so I'm pretty sure our intelligence data had that bit right.

What we cocked up was how they disposed/moved them and where to. I reckon there's a good chance of them sitting in a big hole somewhere in Syria, but then maybe I'm just being cynical.. I do believe they existed, we just didn't believe the Iraqis could move them so quickly without our knowledge. But then that's typical of this government.

Maggie Thatcher would have bombed them and then asked questions later :smt068

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[Baph]

Ahh, but remember me and you are not normal :p Think tabloid - ok, there's no free press under occupation - but imagine the typical tabloid reaction if there were. Tabloid reactions don't so much drive mass public opinion but mirror it. Me and you might be driven by "let's get a free country back", and that would be the overwhelming motivation of most I'd wager, but a large proportion of the population would be angered by what could be seen as desecration. It wouldn't be their sole motivation, it would add a further spark of anger to existing motivation.
Assuming Buckingham Palace were occupied by some invasion force, I'd quite happily help destroy the place. Take out a few occupants along the way. Wouldn't do archeology any favours though. :lol:

[ASM-Forever]

Ok, put it this way, imagine the war didn't go too well, imagine Saddam Hussein pushed us all the way back and occupied England (hell, you declare war and this is always a possibility).

LMAO thats quote of the day....never in a million years was the coalition going to lose, it was just a matter of time. I would also be interested to see which route, through which countries, Saddam would repel us infidels through.

Lets face it we supplied most of their hardware so we knew it wouldn't work :)

[ASM-Forever]

Not quite...

Those WMD's DID exist at some point. UK and the US paid for them to be built, so I'm pretty sure our intelligence data had that bit right.

What we cocked up was how they disposed/moved them and where to. I reckon there's a good chance of them sitting in a big hole somewhere in Syria, but then maybe I'm just being cynical.. I do believe they existed, we just didn't believe the Iraqis could move them so quickly without our knowledge. But then that's typical of this government.

Maggie Thatcher would have bombed them and then asked questions later :smt068

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Nah my money is on them being popped across the border to Iran. Also the Iraqi's did extensive "research" in Libya...Gaadaffi(spelling...is he welsh ffs) prob has them in his conservatory :)

[Jelster]

Nah my money is on them being popped across the border to Iran. Also the Iraqi's did extensive "research" in Libya...Gaadaffi(spelling...is he welsh ffs) prob has them in his conservatory :)

Don't think it would have been Iran, the two countries hate each other. In fact Iran would of done anything to help topple Saddam, as they move up the pecking order.

Syria is the obvious place especially as the borders were a bit "loose"...

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[ASM-Forever]

You're right and i guess you are wrong as well! Although they havn't got on it has long been Iran's plan to take control of southern Iraq for the profitable oil fields...IMO its the main reason why the coalition is still there!

Also whilst relations seemed poor with Sadaam/his party, there are always generals and dissidents that share the same ideals as the Iranians....there are factions in every country.

Of course they could have just hidden them in the dessert....its not pratical to search it properly.

[gettin2dizzy]

Sorry. What's more important?

Finding out about the layout of buildings, the type of pottery & the money used many years ago.

Or is it keeping people alive whilst they're under fire from bullets & morters etc.

Hmm. :confused:

EDIT: In years to come, archeologists will have a field day (pardon the pun) working out what happend with all the heavy machinery destroying stuff.

This war is a blip in history, which will be well documented. Babylon is the home of a wonder of the world. A civilization so advanced we are still learning from them, a site so precious archaeologists have had restricted access. The Americans storming in then is sickening. This site is as valuable as the pyramids. All this demonstrates is what little regard the Americans really have. To masquerade this attack as beneficial to Iraq, and then perform actions like this make you wonder what their next step might be.

[Baph]

The Americans storming in then is sickening. This site is as valuable as the pyramids.

If I was in charge of an army, and needed to setup a base camp at the Pyramids which I knew would result in destruction of the Pyramids, but I also knew would ensure the relative safety of my troops, well, down come the Pyramids!!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, Human life is more important than any possible knowledge we might gain. Even if that knowledge involves how to live longer!

[gettin2dizzy]

they found out a few years ago that concrete is holding up stonehenge :laughat:hehe. They don't know who or when, but apparently repair were carried out really badly to hold it up!

[Jelster]

they found out a few years ago that concrete is holding up stonehenge :laughat:hehe. They don't know who or when, but apparently repair were carried out really badly to hold it up!

Maybe it was the same people who did the job in Pisa :D

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