View Full Version : Independance & devolution
This should be good for discussion.:smt094
The latest headlines reveal that in Scotland, certain University fees will now be paid by the english taxpayer. In addition, prescriptions are now free for those that need them - there are similar arrangements in Wales I believe. Now, whilst I have not extensively researched this issue, I feel certain that there will be people here who have an opinion on this subject.
I have nothing against the people either North of the border, or indeed West of the border:smt056 :flower: . My issue lies with the system as it 'appears' to me. If Wales & Scotland are now following the process of devolution and are establishing their own independence, why is it left to the English taxpayer to fund thisngs like NHS prescriptions and university fees? I live in a post code lottery type area where I have pay £6000 for an operation that my wife needs. :( A few years ago, we had to pay thousands for certain medication which was available free elsewhere. :( Most people that attend uni in England have to pay fees or get a form of loan and repay that. And yet we, the English taxpayer, is now funding these very things in other parts of the 'NOT the United Kingdom'. What's going on?
Please don't misunderstand me - getting these things gratis is really superb and that's what taxes should be for..:smt003 .but it don't seem to be happening down in our neck of the woods where I pay the taxes. And no...I'm not going to move!! (:laughat: the locals wouldn't like me due to my accent:rolleyes: )
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 10:54 AM
Hmmm...
Latest headlines for the past 50 decades have been reading that Scotland has been shafted on a regular basis by Westiminster on the majority of services taxes...etc.
The "county" of Scotland had the poll tax a year early...we pay more for our fuel...we have less money for our councils...education etc. We have less for defence. Let's not forget the shipbuilding industries!!!!
We give the economy oil and financial institutions.
Westminster was involved in innumerable attempts to secretly bury toxic and nuclear waste throughout Scotland. An independent Scotland would be in a position to curtail such activities, and to put stricter controls on both dumping and the general usage of nuclear power. They would also be capable of restricting the American military's activities of similar nature.
Scotland does not get a particularly fair share of UK defense procurement, nor is the military an entrenched part of the job market. (Where do all the defence contracts go???? Down south!!!!!) An independent Scotland in the single European market would be able to compete on more equal terms.It would also be able to use defence as a way to boost employment, if it so wished.
Despite a certain amount of depreciation in people's perceptions - especially the english, the Scottish economy is in a state of upturn beyond a lot of the rest of the UK. Although many traditional Scottish industries like shipbuilding, went into terminal decline in the 1970's,Scotland has recovered and restructured remarkably well - prior to devolution. Many of its new industries, electronics, tourism and financial services, have raised employment higher than in many other parts of Britain.
So all this crap from down south about Scotland being oversibsidised is just that - crap.
The truth is...now we have devolution we are making a good job of it and why shouldn't we. These petty headlines about English taxpayers paying for Scottish this and Scottish that is just headline fodder.
If the people down south who made these headlines actually did their homework then lets see what the headlines would really say.
At the end of the day...if Scotland is such a burden on the English tax payer then why the fack are England so desperate to avoid us becoming independent????
Rant over ;)
If Scotland wishes to be independent then fair enough, I don't know anyone who's said otherwise!
I'd welcome it. If it's truly in the interest of the scottish people.
Could you give me your citation for: "Despite a certain amount of depreciation in people's perceptions - especially the english, "
Perhaps we could also have a referendum in England - should we devolve from the rest of the union!!! Ooh, and One for London.
This should be good for discussion.:smt094
The latest headlines reveal that in Scotland, certain University fees will now be paid by the english taxpayer. In addition, prescriptions are now free for those that need them - there are similar arrangements in Wales I believe.
If Wales & Scotland are now following the process of devolution and are establishing their own independence, why is it left to the English taxpayer to fund thisngs like NHS prescriptions and university fees? And yet we, the English taxpayer, is now funding these very things in other parts of the 'NOT the United Kingdom'. What's going on?
Does that mean that I don't have to pay Income Tax, or VAT etc, because I live in Wales? The tax I pay still goes in the same pot as the tax you pay.
There's nothing discriminatory about it (in terms of which country you happen to live in). Is there extra burden on the tax system because of it? Certainly.
Your argument should be why the "English" government don't give you free prescriptions & student fees out of the pot of money.
Does that mean that I don't have to pay Income Tax, or VAT etc, because I live in Wales? The tax I pay still goes in the same pot as the tax you pay.
There's nothing discriminatory about it (in terms of which country you happen to live in). Is there extra burden on the tax system because of it? Certainly.
Your argument should be why the "English" government don't give you free prescriptions & student fees out of the pot of money.
That's the phrase I was looking for!!:) (I'm a bit of a wus:sick: ).
There's nothing discriminatory about it (in terms of which country you happen to live in). Is there extra burden on the tax system because of it? Certainly.
Your argument should be why the "English" government don't give you free prescriptions & student fees out of the pot of money.
Here in Shrewsbury we are of course in England. There are often complaints in the paper that someone living in Shrewsbury has to pay for certain treatment at the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital but that people living in Welshpool just down the road don't have to pay, notwithstanding that they are seeing the same consultant at the same hospital, simply because the Welsh Assembly pays instead. It is unfair, and of course it's discriminatory, everyone should be treated the same.
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 12:16 PM
Does that mean that I don't have to pay Income Tax, or VAT etc, because I live in Wales? The tax I pay still goes in the same pot as the tax you pay.
There's nothing discriminatory about it (in terms of which country you happen to live in). Is there extra burden on the tax system because of it? Certainly.
Your argument should be why the "English" government don't give you free prescriptions & student fees out of the pot of money.
Looks like the Forum ate my earlier reply which was along these lines :P
Alpinestarhero
14-06-07, 12:21 PM
Its frustrating that scotland gets free university, and we dont; I'm not too bad off, since my LEA (and that then means the tax payers) pay for half of my tuition fees, as a non-repayable grant. But for new students, who started university in september, they are having to pay loads and loads. Chemistry departments across the country have been closing due to lack of money, and now more of EVERY department may close for lack of students who cant afford to pay - whilst scottish students get their university education free! I'm not saying im jelous, I'm just saying its a little unfair that the tax-payers are paying for the economy of another country (even if i is part of us) when there are things going wrong within our own.
Matt
Here in Shrewsbury we are of course in England. There are often complaints in the paper that someone living in Shrewsbury has to pay for certain treatment at the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital but that people living in Welshpool just down the road don't have to pay, notwithstanding that they are seeing the same consultant at the same hospital, simply because the Welsh Assembly pays instead. It is unfair, and of course it's discriminatory, everyone should be treated the same.
OK, perhaps I should revise my statement then:
So long as you're treated in a hospital within your own country, there's nothing discriminatory about it. It should be the place of treatment, not residence that counts. Unfortunately it isn't this way.
But alas, it's of benefit to me. Two of my kids having treatments on the NHS, one of which we'd probably have to pay for if we lived in England. Is it right? No, NHS should be just what it says on the tin, free for all people with UK citizenship.
Luckypants
14-06-07, 12:23 PM
The formulae for deciding how much Wales, NI and Scotland get from the Central pot have been pretty uch the same for years. The difference now is that the various aasemblies have the power to decide how to spend that cash. If Wales and Scotland decide that they want to use some of it to provide free prescriptions, that is our decision. There is a cut in services elsewhere, this is not new money.
English taxpayers pay no more and no less than thier Welsh / Scottish / Irish counterparts - we all get shafted by Westminster.
it's all swings and roundabouts. the scots and welsh are choosing to spend their money in these ways and the english have chosen to spend their budget differently.
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 12:29 PM
I have never managed to work out why it is that people believe that University education should be free.
The arguement that I always saw was that University educated people ended up in jobs that paid better.
They are even lucky enough that loans are available with flexible enough terms that they dont need to pay them back for years.
I believe the Governments target to get more and more people through University is just for International bragging rights, instead they should concentrate on making sure that EVERYONE get the chance of a good and decent foundation education at Primary/Secondary school level, instead of dumbing subjects down to get passes in exams that you pretty much get through just by turning up.
The scariest thing I read recently about the education system is the fact that only an English teacher will pull a pupil up for bad spelling or grammar.
Surely it is the responsibility of EVERY teacher in a school to make sure that the pupils are educated to a high standard.
Explain to me why University SHOULD be free please?
Hmmm....As Sarah says - its what we do with contents of the pot that counts. Perhaps as devolution progresses, this will change as the contents of the pot will have to change. Would it be right to say that in the future, those in Scotland would pay taxes into their own 'Scottish pot?'...and so on for the Welsh etc..in which case it's all a part of the process of throwing off the shackles of Westminster. Perhaps in future, their will be free uni education for the masses in England and so on. And free prescriptions etc.
Soulkiss - Can't answer that one - probably a case of "well they're getting it free, why can't we?".
Luckypants
14-06-07, 12:44 PM
I have never managed to work out why it is that people believe that University education should be free. Because the thought of paying will stop many from going, leading to an education system based on wealth and not ability. This affects those from poorer backgrounds the most, leading to the poor feeling there is no way to 'better' themselves. We ain't poor, far from it, but my son has decided he cannot afford to repay the debt he is likely to incur - even with hefty contributions from his parents. He would be attending a Welsh university so benefits from not having to pay top up fees, but still feels the financial burden will be too great.
The arguement that I always saw was that University educated people ended up in jobs that paid better. Indeed and therefore pay more tax into the system as a result. If I personally had stayed in Wales and not gone to university then I would be in a job paying perhaps half of what I currently earn. The increased taxes I have paid in the past 23 years have more than repaid my student grant and tuition fees. The treasury is now reaping the dividends of thier investment in my education.
They are even lucky enough that loans are available with flexible enough terms that they dont need to pay them back for years.No longer true. Interest is payable from the get go, interest charges are practically commercial rates and you have to start repaying as soon as you earn over £15K, which is not a lot more than the minimum wage. Gorden Brown has announced he will sell the student loan book to a commercial lender, nothing has been said about protecting the students from interest rate rises, debt collectors calling if they are unemployed and so forth.
I believe the Governments target to get more and more people through University is just for International bragging rights, instead they should concentrate on making sure that EVERYONE get the chance of a good and decent foundation education at Primary/Secondary school level, instead of dumbing subjects down to get passes in exams that you pretty much get through just by turning up. Can't argue with that, but if folks truly have the ability they should be allowed to go forward to higher education without having to worry if they can afford it.
Explain to me why University SHOULD be free please?See my earlier rant.
Explain to me why University SHOULD be free please?
because those people who went to university are more likely to have a more highly paid job than those who didn't and therefore pay more income tax (and probably other taxes too).
do you believe that any education should be free?
edit: you beat me to it luckypants
Tiger 55
14-06-07, 12:49 PM
I Explain to me why University SHOULD be free please?
Ach you're at it mate! You know the argument as well as anybody else - it should be free so that those that couldn't afford to go otherwise get the chance. The promise, make that possibility, of a better paid job don't mean much if you literally can't find the cash to get the education in the first place.
Perhaps a system could be introduced whereby financial assistance was, ahem, granted to those that need it while those that don't just stump up.
Flamin_Squirrel
14-06-07, 12:53 PM
...and so on for the Welsh etc...
And Wales, having thrown off said shackles of Westminster and the pound promtly return on their knees after realising that sheep aren't legal tender.
And Wales, having thrown off said shackles of Westminster and the pound promtly return on their knees after realising that sheep aren't legal tender.
:D Made I larf!!
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:06 PM
I have never managed to work out why it is that people believe that University education should be free. Because the thought of paying will stop many from going, leading to an education system based on wealth and not ability. This affects those from poorer backgrounds the most, leading to the poor feeling there is no way to 'better' themselves. We ain't poor, far from it, but my son has decided he cannot afford to repay the debt he is likely to incur - even with hefty contributions from his parents. He would be attending a Welsh university so benefits from not having to pay top up fees, but still feels the financial burden will be too great.
Why in that case should he go to University? From his decision (which I have to admire) its not that important to him as he is not willing (or maybe just not able) to see the long-term picture. What benefit would University give him?
The arguement that I always saw was that University educated people ended up in jobs that paid better. Indeed and therefore pay more tax into the system as a result. If I personally had stayed in Wales and not gone to university then I would be in a job paying perhaps half of what I currently earn. The increased taxes I have paid in the past 23 years have more than repaid my student grant and tuition fees. The treasury is now reaping the dividends of thier investment in my education.
I have often considered the "what I have paid for in taxes" thing and frankly, in the society we live in, you cant really play that game. I dont have kids, so why do I have to pay taxes that go towards schools when the parents of the kids that do go get tax-credits back?
It also falls down when you compare yourself with your Degree to someone who doesn't have one who is earning the same as you.
They are even lucky enough that loans are available with flexible enough terms that they dont need to pay them back for years.No longer true. Interest is payable from the get go, interest charges are practically commercial rates and you have to start repaying as soon as you earn over £15K, which is not a lot more than the minimum wage. Gorden Brown has announced he will sell the student loan book to a commercial lender, nothing has been said about protecting the students from interest rate rises, debt collectors calling if they are unemployed and so forth.
Again, why should you not pay for what you are getting? The fact that repayment is deferred for however many years. I didn't know about the inflation rates however, but I know of people who didn't need a loan, but took one out to the full extent they could, put it in a high-interest account and made a profit from it.
I believe the Governments target to get more and more people through University is just for International bragging rights, instead they should concentrate on making sure that EVERYONE get the chance of a good and decent foundation education at Primary/Secondary school level, instead of dumbing subjects down to get passes in exams that you pretty much get through just by turning up. Can't argue with that, but if folks truly have the ability they should be allowed to go forward to higher education without having to worry if they can afford it.
I agree on this part. If there is a kid who it is felt by their teachers should go to University then there should be some mechanism for that to happen, Local Authority scholarships etc.
I am not against University Education, I chose not to go but the option was there for me.
What I am against though, is this idea that its everyone's right to go, when my observation is that for many, its just a way to dodge having to find a job for a few years. I have come into contact with a few of these types in the past - admittedly my experience is 15 years old now, when 2 new graduates joined the company I worked for on the "Graduate Training Scheme". Now, this was an Insurance company, so I could never work out why someone with a degree in Geology, or in French, should be paid more money for doing less work that I did, just because they had been on a 4 year p!$$-up.
Ok so the last paragraph might actually show I am slighly biased against, but hey, some of my best friends went to Uni, and I, through the wonders of the Student Union Sign-In scheme, might as well have done.
In fact due to this, I may have drunk in more Student Unions than most of they did, due to visiting friends all over the UK :P
The Basket
14-06-07, 01:08 PM
I got a free eye test coz I live in Scotland.
Plus all that oil and gas from North Sea is Scottish.
Scotland is much smaller population so when they say per person that is misleading. Only quarter of the population of London in a land roughly size of England.
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:09 PM
because those people who went to university are more likely to have a more highly paid job than those who didn't and therefore pay more income tax (and probably other taxes too).
do you believe that any education should be free?
edit: you beat me to it luckypants
See my reply to LP about the higher taxes - I never went to Uni, so who's education is my higher income tax paying for?
As for should education be free - yes, within the current Primary/Secondary school system, and there should be some provision for people with the ability but not the means to go to University/Higher Education.
It should not however apply to anyone who just wants to doss for 4 years and do some spurious degree that has no bearing on real-life
Jelster
14-06-07, 01:10 PM
Scotland can go as far as I'm concerned... Wonderful people and wonderful place, but it's a huge burden on the NHS. You guys can have your own "SHS" and look after your own. You should be able to afford it with the amount of money you make from us "Southerners" whenever we visit... ;)
(runs & hides...)
Alpinestarhero
14-06-07, 01:13 PM
See my reply to LP about the higher taxes - I never went to Uni, so who's education is my higher income tax paying for?
As for should education be free - yes, within the current Primary/Secondary school system, and there should be some provision for people with the ability but not the means to go to University/Higher Education.
It should not however apply to anyone who just wants to doss for 4 years and do some spurious degree that has no bearing on real-life
Agree - I dont mind paying for my university course, its not compulsary and therefore its my desicion, but why should others get it free?
And as for the lame degree's....well....they may well be keeping other departments open, since money gets distributed about...but i do know of people who doss about, where as I and my girlfreind work damn hard.
Matt
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:13 PM
Ach you're at it mate! You know the argument as well as anybody else - it should be free so that those that couldn't afford to go otherwise get the chance. The promise, make that possibility, of a better paid job don't mean much if you literally can't find the cash to get the education in the first place.
Perhaps a system could be introduced whereby financial assistance was, ahem, granted to those that need it while those that don't just stump up.
Perhaps repeating myself a bit, but to agree with you, in a modifed way, let me paraphrase you
Perhaps a system could be introduced whereby financial assistance was, ahem, granted to those that need it, and have a proven ability or interest in the subject and can be expected to graduate at the end of the course with a good degree while those that don't just stump up.
See my reply to LP about the higher taxes - I never went to Uni, so who's education is my higher income tax paying for?
As for should education be free - yes, within the current Primary/Secondary school system, and there should be some provision for people with the ability but not the means to go to University/Higher Education.
It should not however apply to anyone who just wants to doss for 4 years and do some spurious degree that has no bearing on real-life
Should we not be looking at this differently? I.E. Rather than investing in individuals that we do not know with our taxes, we are actually investing in the future of the country - looking towards the collective and the greater good.
Jelster
14-06-07, 01:19 PM
Perhaps a system could be introduced whereby financial assistance was, ahem, granted to those that need it, and have a proven ability or interest in the subject and can be expected to graduate at the end of the course with a good degree while those that don't just stump up.
Now that upsets me see.....
Why should I have to pay for my sons University course because some :toss: says I can afford it ? If I earn so much money I'm paying a lot of bloody tax and as far as I'm concerned I've earned the right to get the same as everybody else.......
I also have this argument for the different brackets, but that's another story/thread....
.
Should we not be looking at this differently? I.E. Rather than investing in individuals that we do not know with our taxes, we are actually investing in the future of the country - looking towards the collective and the greater good.
I'm not going all Rousseau or anything, there's lots of flaws with his methods. But thinking on a grander scale sometimes can be more helpful.
Now that upsets me see.....
Why should I have to pay for my sons University course because some :toss: says I can afford it ? If I earn so much money I'm paying a lot of bloody tax and as far as I'm concerned I've earned the right to get the same as everybody else.......
I also have this argument for the different brackets, but that's another story/thread....
.
good point. why should parents have to support their adult offspring through university?
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:25 PM
as far as I'm concerned I've earned the right to get the same as everybody else.......
Exactly the same thing as I am saying - only I am saying that no-one has the right to get it automatically.
To extend your argument, as someone who didn't go to uni, and doesnt have any kids to put through uni, should I pay the same taxes as you? Should I be able to claim some kind of rebate?
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:26 PM
I don't know anyone who's said otherwise!
Mate...it's in the media all the time about the English trying to reverse the independence thing.
This puts things into context. Around election time there was all this stuff about subsidies and english taxpayers paying for Scotland. It was later shown to be biassed and geared towards resentment against the SNP but it backfired. All it did was create anti scottish feeling down south and support for the SNP up here. It was on 5 live, question time so not sure how you escaped it.
It even got to the point that the english were resenting Gordon Brown simply because he is Scottish - question time, 5 live phone ins. Had me amused.
Anyway, it all backfired. These subsidy figures were put about to stop the scots moaning about lack of funding for vital resources and also to discredit the SNP. They were originally put make the case for devloved parliaments in the North of England - who incidentally get a raw deal from Westminster. Basically if you're outside london then you are a poor cousin.
It backfired because it made the devolved parliament in Scotland look like it was doing a great job - and to be fair it really really is. This increased support for the SNP and the guy in the street's perception was that Scotland are doing a great job so obviosuly Scotland can go it alone. (The english perception was that we need all these subsidies because our economy is so bad.)
This is not what westmisnter wanted because they know full well that without Scotland they have a massive amount to lose. They lose the oil, the defence, the land rights - nowhere to dump the nuclear waste for free!!!! We gain what is rightfully ours and sovereign.
Anyway... someone had to go and undo the anti scottish feeling and polls were done - which means someone had to tell the truth. So...ICM did polls. At first there was a growing anti scottish feeling in England but this was later turned around.
ICM found that originally 68% of english people polled said they wanted Scotland out of the union as a result of the subsidies being mentioned in the papers.
The same people were asked the same question but pointed out that the subsidies were biassed. Dropped to 28%
The same people were asked the same question but told that the oil would be under Scottish under international sovereignty laws and that defence would be affected. Dropped to 9%
I'd be worried about independence because it doesn't benefit England. Scotland would go then next would be wals then ireland. England would be much less powerful on the world stage and things like the economy and defence would suffer. It'd have nowhere to put it's nuclear weapons for a start.
Just think...people from the Englandshire would need a passport to get over our border. We would charge an entry and exit tax. England could do the same but we'd rather sail to Ireland or Wales ;)
[The citation BTW was from the New York Times. English people's perception was that Scotland had to do things like this because of the subsidies and our economy was so bad. Note it was a perception and not based on fact.]
as someone who didn't go to uni, and doesnt have any kids to put through uni, should I pay the same taxes as you? Should I be able to claim some kind of rebate?
no
Exactly the same thing as I am saying - only I am saying that no-one has the right to get it automatically.
To extend your argument, as someone who didn't go to uni, and doesnt have any kids to put through uni, should I pay the same taxes as you? Should I be able to claim some kind of rebate?
No - because you should be considering the 'good' of the country.
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:28 PM
Should we not be looking at this differently? I.E. Rather than investing in individuals that we do not know with our taxes, we are actually investing in the future of the country - looking towards the collective and the greater good.
Degrees only have value if it is the exception to have one.
If everyone has a scraped pass degree in something or other then the value of them is diluted.
I would rather see people doing technical qualifications at Colleges, or serving apprenticeships than going to University and getting a degree in it.
My main arguement is that University should be a priviledge, and not a right, but I do agree that it should not be only the privildeged who can go, nor should priviledge mean automatic acceptance into University.
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:31 PM
(runs & hides...)
I'd run away to the farthest corner of the universe then. Cos when we become independent we'll switch off the oil to England and you folk from the shire will have to buy your bike fuel from the French ;)
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:31 PM
oops...sorry. repost my bad.
I'd run away to the farthest corner of the universe then. Cos when we become independent we'll switch off the oil to England and you folk from the shire will have to buy your bike fuel from the French ;)
That'll cost you a few bob in lost revenue I'll wager...
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:36 PM
That'll cost you a few bob in lost revenue I'll wager...
Nah...it'd just be more for us. The French like us too.
Flamin_Squirrel
14-06-07, 01:37 PM
What I am against though, is this idea that its everyone's right to go, when my observation is that for many, its just a way to dodge having to find a job for a few years.
The idea behind it is fairly simple. We're a rich high(ish) tax society and utterly uncometative at large scale production. The only way we're to survive is though high level financial and technical services. This requires a highly educated population.
Now, the fact that the education system is crap and most people coming out of uni now are probably less well educated than secondary school pupils of 30 years ago means that we're probably in serious trouble.
Personally I think the money would have been better spent on insuring that those leaving school could add before even thinking of packing them off to uni, but there we are.
Nah...it'd just be more for us. The French like us too.
More? How so?...When you could charge us whatever you'd like...virtually.
I didnt realise it was Scottish oil companies that had put up the money, researched the fields and got the oil out. I thought it was the big brit companies like BP etc or royal dutch shell or Americans, canadians and norwegians.just a thought
Ceri JC
14-06-07, 01:42 PM
it's all swings and roundabouts. the scots and welsh are choosing to spend their money in these ways and the english have chosen to spend their budget differently.
Exactly. We spend ours on health and education. You p*** yours up the wall on things like the millenium dome and the 2012 Olympics. :P
Exactly. We spend ours on health and education. You p*** yours up the wall on things like the millenium dome and the 2012 Olympics. :P
i was thinking of saying something along those lines, but i'm sure the welsh wasted a fair amount of money on the sennedd (or however it is spelt).
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 01:49 PM
Personally I think the money would have been better spent on insuring that those leaving school could add before even thinking of packing them off to uni, but there we are.
You can insure for that kind of thing? whats the excess like....
Oh you mean ensure.....
See - a man backing his post up with good evidence :P
Nah only joking FS, you make a very good point (which I think I also made above)
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:55 PM
I didnt realise it was Scottish oil companies that had put up the money, researched the fields and got the oil out. I thought it was the big brit companies like BP etc or royal dutch shell or Americans, canadians and norwegians.just a thought
Er...just a thought...BP founded by a Scot - Donald Alexander Smith, 1st Baron Strathcona...;)
Doesn't matter who funded it...it's still on Scotland's sovereign soil and sea. That's like saying Iraq's oil belongs to the Americans.
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 01:56 PM
i was thinking of saying something along those lines, but i'm sure the welsh wasted a fair amount of money on the sennedd (or however it is spelt).
lol...this thread is fun.
Let's not get started on the Scottish parliament.
Er...just a thought...BP founded by a Scot - Donald Alexander Smith, 1st Baron Strathcona...;)
Doesn't matter who funded it...it's still on Scotland's sovereign soil and sea. That's like saying Iraq's oil belongs to the Americans.
but its part of the british isles isnt it ?
lol...this thread is fun.
Let's not get started on the Scottish parliament.
forgot about that!
like i said before it's all swings and roundabouts and imho there are better things to worry about
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 02:00 PM
but its part of the british isles isnt it ?
Scotland was still a country last time I heard.
Scotland was still a country last time I heard.
unlike wales
stuartyboy
14-06-07, 02:05 PM
unlike wales
That's cos they're far too busy swimming and spouting off about other things
Ceri JC
14-06-07, 02:21 PM
i was thinking of saying something along those lines, but i'm sure the welsh wasted a fair amount of money on the sennedd (or however it is spelt).
I cannot disagree. :D
Jelster
14-06-07, 03:51 PM
To extend your argument, as someone who didn't go to uni, and doesnt have any kids to put through uni, should I pay the same taxes as you? Should I be able to claim some kind of rebate?
Well I didn't go through Uni either, but I figure that if my son has the ability then why should I not do the best I can to get him a good start in life ? I don't want the hassle of his fees hanging over his head as soon as he's out of Uni.
Jelster
14-06-07, 03:55 PM
I'd run away to the farthest corner of the universe then. Cos when we become independent we'll switch off the oil to England and you folk from the shire will have to buy your bike fuel from the French ;)
We get very little oil from "THE UK" now anyway. It's not ALL Scottish oil, and companies in England did most of the research in the first place :tongue:
(As in, until the oil & gas were discovered, it was Shell & BP (mainly) that did all the research & discovery work. After that Aberdeen became an "oil based city" and 90% of businesses there relied on oil in one way or another. Before that the oil companies had very little in the way of infrastructure in Scotland).
.
Well I didn't go through Uni either, but I figure that if my son has the ability then why should I not do the best I can to get him a good start in life ? I don't want the hassle of his fees hanging over his head as soon as he's out of Uni.
I did go to Uni and I got a full grant. But the cost of it has more than been recouped in the higher taxes I've paid.
Daughter goes to a private school as the state education was so dismal, little more than free childminding. So perhaps I can have a rebate on that. Mind, I went to the doctor this morning, so I have to offset a bit;)
Ceri JC
14-06-07, 04:24 PM
Daughter goes to a private school as the state education was so dismal, little more than free childminding. So perhaps I can have a rebate on that.
The conservatives were actually proposing something similar to this for health (I believe it was called "Passport to Health"). The idea was, if you could afford the cost of the private operation, they'd give you the cash back it would have cost to have done it on the NHS. The basis being, a large number of people who couldn't afford private healthcare currently, would suddenly be able to, which would ease NHS waiting lists no end. Not very acceptable politically as most detractors focused on the aspect of it basically being just a rebate for the rich (who'd go private regardless). Seemed like a good idea to me, even though I'd not fall into either of the groups going private (IE I'd still be NHS).
gettin2dizzy
14-06-07, 04:27 PM
As for the unbalance, 2 of my old welsh housemates received grants for being Welsh, I could never get my head around that
SoulKiss
14-06-07, 04:39 PM
As for the unbalance, 2 of my old welsh housemates received grants for being Welsh, I could never get my head around that
What would you rather be, rich and Welsh, or poor and English?
:P
David, Scottish and rich :P (well at least for today, it was payday :P)
Caddy2000
14-06-07, 04:47 PM
If Scotland wants to be independant let them! They'll have a shock-
Scotland's expeniture is more than it's income, the balance is made up from Westminster!
Is this fair? An interesting point....
And as the United Kingdom is a memebr of the EU Scotland would have to join if it opted out of the union. But if it then opted in wouldn't we just end up back in the same mess?
Right time to stir thigs up a bit.
If Scotland or Wales NI etc want indipendace from England then let them have it, it would be a matter of years berofe they were f**ked and asked to come back.
And by independance i mean complete and utter as in as much as france is independent from us. Take everything that yhe UK gave them out!!
They have lots of land but far fewer people, infrastructure and resourses therefore could not sustain themselves with out the help of England/Westminster. Basics really there are fewer people to get tax from so they would not be abble to pay for everything. The country would fall on its **** very quickly. England would withdraw all things controlled by westminster, police funding, The armed forces up their basically take out anything westminster has a claim to and say there you go, get on with it, go **** yourself. Why do you think England developed quicker than the Scots ? cos we had more people and resourses to get things done and fund it.
how long would it be before you came crawling back asking for a helping hand??
Scotland is the headache and Wales is the ars*hole of England. ( i mean all this in the nicest possible way )
Scotland is the headache and Wales is the ars*hole of England.
[-X
Er...just a thought...BP founded by a Scot - Donald Alexander Smith, 1st Baron Strathcona...;)
Doesn't matter who funded it...it's still on Scotland's sovereign soil and sea. That's like saying Iraq's oil belongs to the Americans.
Fight you for it and England would win with our far bigger Army and spending ability, while you would be fighting with pitchfors again as being independent would mean wesminster took back all the weapons, planes etc!! :smt067
Er...just a thought...BP founded by a Scot - Donald Alexander Smith, 1st Baron Strathcona...;)
Doesn't matter who funded it...it's still on Scotland's sovereign soil and sea. That's like saying Iraq's oil belongs to the Americans.
I found this bit interesting...Scotland has it's own soveriegn? I thought she was soverign of the British Isles et al.
Oh, and I don't think it's anything like the American/Iraq bit either...that's just silly. Scotland as you are well aware is attached to the same land mass as England and Wales. The Americans are just 'doing some business' in Iraq...but I think that particular subject is another whole thread.
Anyway, what about my free drugs!!??!;) :D
Caddy2000
14-06-07, 06:22 PM
I found this bit interesting...Scotland has it's own soveriegn? I thought she was soverign of the British Isles et al.
Oh, and I don't think it's anything like the American/Iraq bit either...that's just silly. Scotland as you are well aware is attached to the same land mass as England and Wales. The Americans are just 'doing some business' in Iraq...but I think that particular subject is another whole thread.
Anyway, what about my free drugs!!??!;) :D
And Apparently the North Sea reserves are only 4 years away from depletion.
There is a relationship between all the countries that makes the Union. As a Union we are that much stronger for it. Take an Irish man, a Scot, a Welshman, and an Englishman out of their respective countries and they are all the same animal.
We are no different from each other!
Keep on this same track and it will turn into Palestine!!
chazzyb
14-06-07, 07:19 PM
Exactly. We spend ours on health and education. You p*** yours up the wall on things like the millenium dome and the 2012 Olympics. :P
That's funny, 'cos I reckon it was mainly Scots who decided the UK would do that!
I didn't vote for any of the bar stewards. Do they listen to me? 'Course they don't, they're politicians:rant:
Tiger 55
14-06-07, 07:42 PM
And as the United Kingdom is a memebr of the EU Scotland would have to join if it opted out of the union.
At the rush! All those lovely subsidies from rich countries like England. Yum.
his usual load of BNP-lite crap
Have to do better than that to stir things up mate :p
Have to do better than that to stir things up mate :p
Doh! did i not rant enough to get people wound up and annoyed?? i am loosing my touch:(
any way i am sure after the (theoretical) devolution the BNP would have to change names to the ENP?? :p
and i do think the BNP have some very good policies if they would just get rid of the blatent racisum. In fact if they did they could be compared with the likes of the SNP??
Tiger 55
14-06-07, 07:57 PM
Doh! did i not rant enough to get people wound up and annoyed?
Not anybody who is familiar with your light-the-blue-touch-paper style ;)
i do think the BNP have some very good policies if they would just get rid of the blatent racisum. In fact if they did they could be compared with the likes of the SNP??
Don't really follow english politics, but without the racism, wouldn't they just be the Conservatives?
Not anybody who is familiar with your light-the-blue-touch-paper style ;)
time for a sudo name, hmmm LOL :p
Don't really follow english politics, but without the racism, wouldn't they just be the Conservatives?
good point, well made, but you forgot to add fill party with rich tw*ts!!
Jelster
14-06-07, 09:22 PM
AKeep on this same track and it will turn into Palestine!!
Or Cornwall :smt067
stuartyboy
15-06-07, 01:03 AM
If Scotland wants to be independant let them! They'll have a shock-
Scotland's expeniture is more than it's income, the balance is made up from Westminster!
Is this fair? An interesting point....
And as the United Kingdom is a memebr of the EU Scotland would have to join if it opted out of the union. But if it then opted in wouldn't we just end up back in the same mess?
We'll have a shock will we? Hmmmm.
The balance is made up from Westminster - see this is one of these statements that make it look like Westminster is giving us charity handouts. Do some research my friend.
See this expenditure thing... it's classic labour scaremongering that has been rubbished for what it is.
Yes - we have a 50% local government GDP...but...remember we are steered by Westminster and we have no alternative. We get less per capita than the rest of the UK for starters - so bear that in mind. The public sector in Scotland is absorbing too much of the labour force and this affects private investment. Taxation for public services squeezes out public spending. Also if we were able to set our tax levels "a la Eire "then things would change for the better - and Westminster knows it.
It is a pure contention (sometimes advanced) that Scotland could not ‘afford’ independence but this can be dismissed right at the outset. Scotland is a middle-income west European country with a population and resource base larger than several of the existing states of the EU. The EU isn't going to ban weaken or penalise us on the basis of our independence - absolute rubbish. Again this EU membership thing is labour scare tactics and easily dismissed. If anything the UK's position would be considerably weakened.
There's been a spate of labour party scaremongering about Scotland’s long-term economic decline, its failure to maintain economic growth rates equivalent to the UK average and the so called "gloomy" prospects for the future. Labour ******** again - aimed at the SNP - that exaggerate Scotland’s woes by comparing GDP growth rates rather than GDP per capita - which is clearly a better measure of welfare. Because Scotland’s population has been declining relative to England, the latter needs a higher overall growth rate to maintain a per capita equivalent - fact. Scotland's growth rate per capita has been broadly in line (but slightly above) with the UK average.
Another problem is this comparison with a UK average - 'conveniently' determined by London and the South-East. Compared to Wales, Northern Ireland and the rest of England - Scotland performs above the average! So yet again massaging of the facts for popular opinion.
So we contribute more than we are given credit for yet the press would have you believe we are scrounging from down south - again ********.
If you do a bit of digging you'll discover that over the past 100 years, Scotland's GDP per capita in relation to the rest of the UK has fluctuated between the high 80s and just over 100. It is currenty 96 per cent!
Lets not forget that in London/South East there are many Scottish companies and institutions that contribute to the GDP of the south - but hey - lets forget all that.
We've shown that by using the limited powers that we have been given that we are doing a fantastic job - and - other European countries are looking to the scottish dev system.
I think we contribute our fair share to this "nation" and we get the kittens share in return!
So SB, in a nutshell, are you saying that none of the stuff that you are fortunate enough to get gratis, as it were, north of the border, comes out of my share of the budget? The same of course goes for Wales. Don't get me wrong - independance may well be a good thing - perhaps one day we will all benefit - but right now, taken at face vaue - it would appear to be a lottery, contributed to by all, where most of the prizes that are truly beneficial, lie not in the English part of the land mass.
Scottish population: 5,116,900
Welsh population: 2,958,600
English population: 50,710,000
The English are more of a draw on the system, so it's obviously harder to give you lot freebies.
We benefit from lower population, therefore lower costs to the NHS etc. If you're giving stuff away free, you always want to give as little as possible. That's entirely why Wales had free prescriptions before Scotland did.
:rolleyes: :smt020 :rolleyes:
The Basket
15-06-07, 10:12 AM
Don't think they do free prescriptions in Scotland.
Should do of course.
Free education so that a person can better themselves regardless of wealth is always a good idea.
Scottish population: 5,116,900
Welsh population: 2,958,600
English population: 50,710,000
The English are more of a draw on the system, so it's obviously harder to give you lot freebies.
We benefit from lower population, therefore lower costs to the NHS etc. If you're giving stuff away free, you always want to give as little as possible. That's entirely why Wales had free prescriptions before Scotland did.
:rolleyes: :smt020 :rolleyes:
Right - that's it!! Time to set sail for somewhere north of here!!
there are no free prescriptions in Scotland unless you are on benefits.
SB - if we go independent do i get to stay? and can we take all of our educated scots back from england.
As for education = the exams are as hard as they were when I took them - I've seen every paper for every exam every year since I left (in Scotland anyway) If the union is strong why does E&W and Scotland have different qualifications??? and employers cannot understand either system Surely we should have a recongised examination in place for the United Kingdom (not british isles as that does NOT include Northern Ireland).
Uni education should be available to all for those that get the entry qualifications. - Scraping a degree should be seen and normally is seen as that it, it doesn't devalue it can show that the person didn't not do well in exams - as some people are. Though we should also be concentrating on practical courses as well as not everyone is academically minded and do better with their hands than essay writing. Those that can afford to pay should - scholarships don't work they can go the rishest family as well.
Thats akin to going to work but because you've worked there longer you don't need training on a new aspect of the job because you know the job!
stuartyboy
15-06-07, 01:50 PM
SB - if we go independent do i get to stay?
Of course you can honey. You were rolling your "r"s at Knockhill ;)
stuartyboy
15-06-07, 01:55 PM
The English are more of a draw on the system, so it's obviously harder to give you lot freebies.
We benefit from lower population, therefore lower costs to the NHS etc.
Sigh...yet another non factually based argument.
Since when was it a benefit being smaller? Why do you think areas like Scotland and Wales are subsidised?
It's because they are smaller they don't get the discounts for supplies services etc. It costs more to run smaller councils anorganisations.
Sigh...yet another non factually based argument.
Since when was it a benefit being smaller? Why do you think areas like Scotland and Wales are subsidised?
It's because they are smaller they don't get the discounts for supplies services etc. It costs more to run smaller councils anorganisations.
Re-read my post & pay attention to the very last line. The one that has 3 smilies on it.
Why bother with an Independant Scotland, half the cabinet are Scottish anyway.....
I blame James I
stuartyboy
15-06-07, 11:55 PM
Re-read my post & pay attention to the very last line. The one that has 3 smilies on it.
Yes I re read it and I dont get your point. 2 x sarcastic smilies and a laughy one. Maybe i didn't get it so explain please.
BTW - I have no axe to grind. Just need clarification.
The Basket
16-06-07, 08:13 AM
read that free prescriptions next summer maybe.
Tiger 55
16-06-07, 01:13 PM
I blame James I
Thought Elizabeth I looked good at the Trooping Of The Colour today.
Unless you're blaming the real James I, King of Scotland 1424 - 1437, in which case it was ERII enjoying the horses n flags n stuff...
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t129/Incognito400/JAMES.jpg
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