View Full Version : It was nearly all over!
plowsie
05-07-07, 12:55 PM
Just went on a blast for a few miles, turned off down a country road to get me back to work, knew it had all been resurfaced and that but hadn't been down for a while and completely forgot there are no signs for sharp/tight bends and stuff. Come into this one bend couldn't see the exit but thought it was less tighter than i thought so i let of brakes and levelled the throttle to get out of the corner smoothly as i levelled i saw the corner tighten more but saw the exit, before i could do anything. I give it a handful of throttle got the back end out of line (:smt104) and felt the thing spin off the road onto the dusty muddy stuff and hit the lip of the grass verge, luckilly it rebounded off it and i carried on. I've got to learn not to be so eager and be smoother.
Close call mate, but it all worked out well in the end, thankfully.
Vanishing point theory, and remember it whilst you're on the bike ;)
plowsie
05-07-07, 01:03 PM
we gotta sort this vanishing point theory out, any write ups or threads about it?
we gotta sort this vanishing point theory out, any write ups or threads about it?
See here (http://www.nukb.co.uk/motorcycle-cornering-positioning.htm). You had a pretty good demo of it (even if I do say so myself) on the way back to the M6. As you commented, I move right for a left bend. That's why.
EDIT: Look for the picture of the red truck & blue bike, bike heading towards a left hand 90 degree bend. Tree on the bend. That's my justification for sitting on the wrong side of the road. In that situation, I'd take the line shown by the yellow dot. Then as I get closer to the bend I move closer to the line shown by blue dot.
SoulKiss
05-07-07, 01:06 PM
we gotta sort this vanishing point theory out, any write ups or threads about it?
Vanishing point theory is simple.
You look down the road/through the corner you are taking, if the point where both sides of the road meet is moving away from you, then you are going slow enough to make it, if that point is coming towards you, then you are going too fast.
Vanishing point theory is simple.
You look down the road/through the corner you are taking, if the point where both sides of the road meet is moving away from you, then you are going slow enough to make it, if that point is coming towards you, then you are going too fast.
Not quite so simple mon amigo. Left/right road positioning helps you to see further down the road (sitting wider into corners moves the vanishing point further away - and you could argue that if going in hot for a bend, and the vanishing point is coming towards you, you can move wide whilst braking to help gain the advantage - but I wouldn't recommend anyone do that).
SoulKiss
05-07-07, 01:26 PM
Not quite so simple mon amigo. Left/right road positioning helps you to see further down the road (sitting wider into corners moves the vanishing point further away - and you could argue that if going in hot for a bend, and the vanishing point is coming towards you, you can move wide whilst braking to help gain the advantage - but I wouldn't recommend anyone do that).
He just asked about Vanishing Points - which in the link you supplied is a separate paragraph in itself, so thereforr a different subject.
Yes, adding road position to the equation is a good thing and as you noted, allows you to manupulate the vanishing point in a different way than just reducing/adding speed.
:P
Personally, I take vanishing point theory to be the whole 9 yards of "reading the road"... for which the link is suitable apt for.
The whole thing about more paint == more danger, road signs, how other traffic are acting etc etc.
Still yet to do any advanced bike training too... :oops:
SoulKiss
05-07-07, 01:32 PM
Personally, I take vanishing point theory to be the whole 9 yards of "reading the road"... for which the link is suitable apt for.
The whole thing about more paint == more danger, road signs, how other traffic are acting etc etc.
Still yet to do any advanced bike training too... :oops:
I agree fully with you.
When I am riding - even on the AR, if I have to use my brakes, then thats a bit of a failure to anticipate in my mind.
Think I used about 75% less of my brakepads than most people on the AR - actually correct that - probably only 50% thanks to the quad.....
Smoothness is what I am aiming for, and while I have a way to go yet, I think I will get there :)
Brakes are useful though. I would never rely solely on engine braking/coasting. If I'm having a gentle bimble, I rarely use the brakes at all, if ever. When I'm riding hard I'll use the front brake, step down the box, and only use the rear brake if I'm still too hot for the corner.
But we're taking over the mans thread here...:oops:
i try to never brake especially near corners.
iam told me to chase the vanishing point but if it starts coming towards you you are going too fast.
get out on roads you know and concentrate on the vanishing point and you can apply it to every road and therefore 99% of the time will not be caught out by going into a corner too fast.
plowsie
05-07-07, 01:55 PM
But we're taking over the mans thread here...:oops:
Please carry on i'm listening :smt045
Bluepete
05-07-07, 01:59 PM
You could try reading this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Riders-Handbook/dp/011341143X) It's a bit dry, I looked at it at work, (Police advanced driver don't'ch'know) it's skewed towards bikes as opposed to cars and may, one day, save your life.
You could try reading this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Riders-Handbook/dp/011341143X) It's a bit dry, I looked at it at work, (Police advanced driver don't'ch'know) it's skewed towards bikes as opposed to cars and may, one day, save your life.
I borrowed that very book around a week before I took my DAS. Can't say I stick 100% to all of it, more just borrow bits & pieces from it.
Very useful indeed though.
EDIT: I just thought actually, when I've been out chasing IL4's around North Wales, I've criticised them for being all over the brakes, when I wasn't. Hmm. Although I'm sure I'm a lot quicker on the SV when I use them (faster approach to corners, similar corner & exit speed) compared to when I don't.
SoulKiss
05-07-07, 02:08 PM
Please carry on i'm listening :smt045
If you insist :)
When I was learning to drive a car my dad taught me about smooth driving.
Basically the brakes were only to be used when stopping the car for whatever reason.
What this teaches is better observation of the road ahead as you have to plan your driving better so that you are at the appropriate speed to take corners etc.
The Vanishing Point theory adds to this in that you can tell if you are going to fast into a corner (or too slow), which if you have already observed the nature of the corner, can be corrected by applying less throttle, or if needed, a touch of brakes, although the use of brakes signifies a lack of observation.
Baph adds the VERY good point that as well as observing the road ahead, on a bike we have the added flexibility of being able to be on either side of out own lane (instead of being stuck right of centre in a car), and we generally have the nimbleness to use the other lane if it is clear.
This allows us to widen corners and influence the vanishing point.
You can mess around with sketches of roads with corners to see how position affects visibility.
Baphs other point about road furniture is also something to consider.
Paint and signs cost money, therefore councils dont put them down for any old reason.
The more paint/signs you can see, then the more hazards there are.
However, if you are observing, you dont need the signs, which was almost your downfall.
Not getting on top of you, I have a few years on the roads under my belt, its just doing it on a bike thats new to me.
Baph adds the VERY good point that as well as observing the road ahead, on a bike we have the added flexibility of being able to be on either side of out own lane (instead of being stuck right of centre in a car), and we generally have the nimbleness to use the other lane if it is clear.
This allows us to widen corners and influence the vanishing point.
Can I also point out that you don't only have your side of the road to play with.
A few people at the AR expressed concerns (especially on the rideup) about me sitting on the wrong side of the road. I do this to get the maximum view I can, not only of traffic on-coming, but also pot holes/manhole covers, animals (like deer) etc.
This technique is also taught at very advanced (ie Police Class A) level apparently. However, as Strechie adeptly pointed out, if there's another bike close behind you, you have to be careful that you have enough room to get back to your side of the road quick sharpish. Don't want a head on, but also don't want to wipe out another biker. Just because they shouldn't be there on the inside of you on approach to a bend doesn't mean they won't be.
I also would not recommend anyone else, regardless of their skill level, to try sitting on the wrong side of the road. That has to be a personal judgement call with regards confidence, skill & comfort. At first, it's very very un-nerving. Now, I'm used to it.
EDIT: Oh, another point, everything in this thread, and the references linked to, does not only apply on country roads. It applies just as much in a heavily populated city as it does at the top of a mountain. Observation isn't only about what you can see, it's about allowing others to see you (if they happen to be looking).
I also would not recommend anyone else, regardless of their skill level, to try sitting on the wrong side of the road. That has to be a personal judgement call with regards confidence, skill & comfort. At first, it's very very un-nerving. Now, I'm used to it.
I would avoid crossing the centre line 99% of the time. A: That's where loads of debris collects - I noticed you seem to get a puncture or two :) - and B: The crown in the road, the paint, 99% of the time it's just not worth crossing- if you can't see far enough, slow down so you don't have to see as far.
Just my 2 cents.
Vanishing point theory is simple.
You look down the road/through the corner you are taking, if the point where both sides of the road meet is moving away from you, then you are going slow enough to make it, if that point is coming towards you, then you are going too fast.
Surely not so simple. Approach any corner and the vanishing point will get closer, no matter how fast or slow you are travelling. I think your above comment applies more to "on the limit" riding rather than maximising observation.
Ceri JC
05-07-07, 02:38 PM
:laughat:
The whole thing about more paint == council department trying to p*** away your tax before the end of the fiscal year, hence vastly more road markings than are neccessary, lots of extra signs to crash into, other road users confused by the whole shambolic system pulling out/forcing their way through as they mistakenly believe they have right of way
:D
Plowsie: Don't worry mate, most of us have gone a bit hot into corners and run wide at some point, the important thing is that you were lucky enough not to have an off (or worse a head on) learn from it and alter your riding accordingly. :thumbsup:
I had a spectacularly bad one that could have easily resulted in me coofing it, had something been coming the other way. Ironically, poor placement of a 'tight bend' road sign was a contributing factor (okay, it was mainly my fault, but the sign didn't help ;)). I saw a 'warning tight bend' sign, slowed, went round the bend (which wasn't particularly tight, but being aware of how signs are overused, thought nothing of it). I then accelerated out of the bend as it opened into what appeared to be a gentleish sweeper. This 'gentleish sweeper' turned out to be a nasty decreasing radius turn that almost culminated in a hairpin. It seemed this was the bend the sign was warning about! Needless to say, I shot across the road and onto the opposite bank. I managed to keep it upright and escaped with only a bruised ego. I'm a bit more careful now and try to always be vigilant for these sorts of bends when riding on unfamiliar roads. These sort of bends are thankully quite rare (I've only encountered 2 others like them), but that just makes it all the more scarey if you come across one IMO.
I noticed you seem to get a puncture or two :)
I have only had a puncture in two tyres.
The first, I was at a school function, came out to the bike to find the rear flat. Some scumbag had slashed my tyre.
The second, I was within 5metres of parking at the office, rolled over something (I'm presuming a sharp stone) on a single track (tarmac'd) road. I was actually off centre to get a view around a building.
Neither of those reflect on my road position IMO (arguable the second one does), and they are the only two punctures I've ever had on a bike.
Nor does any of that detract from the fact that it is a technique taught at very advanced level (as I have said).
Your points about the centre line paint, that depends partly on your tyres. Z6's (even only a couple of weeks old) will complain about it, I haven't found PR2s to complain. Also, if you're hard on the throttle or brakes whilst crossing paint work, you're asking for trouble.
EDIT: Ceri JC, my point wasn't that paint/road signs should be adheared to in all cases (although in most they should). More that if you look well ahead at where the road is going, often you will see road signs, telegraph poles etc that will give you clues.
My useless tuppence worth....
Vanishing pont moving away.... Bend is straightening....
Vanishing point coming towards you.... bend tightening....
though coming from the worlds slowest cornerer.....
;-)
I have only had a puncture in two tyres.
Heh ok, still something to consider though. Just like crossing between the car tyre tracks within a lane. Time and a place, as they say.
Time and a place, as they say.
Exactly why I won't recommend anyone, of any skill level do it. There's times when I do, and times when I don't, even on the same section of the same road, heading the same way.
Ceri JC
05-07-07, 03:22 PM
You could try reading this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Riders-Handbook/dp/011341143X) It's a bit dry, I looked at it at work, (Police advanced driver don't'ch'know) it's skewed towards bikes as opposed to cars and may, one day, save your life.
I'll give this book a thumbs up too. Probably my favourite advanced riding book. There's not much I don't agree with in it. I read it and applied it to my riding several months before joining IAM. On my first ride the (senior and most competent of the group) observer commented that he could see I'd had some previous advanced training by the way I was riding. I hadn't, strictly speaking, I'd just read the book and tried to do as it said. If you're wanting to understand appropriate corner speed a bit better, it's a great place to start, to grasp the theory of it. That way, when you're following someone who is using all of the road, you'll understand why they're doing what they are (if they're doing it right ;)).
jeez plowsie, you arent ahppy unless your trying to crash are you huni??
well saved.x
Lucky there pal, I overcooked a corner a couple of weeks ago whilst out with Tim (belgium) and had to force myself to keep looking at the road rather than the verge to get myself around the corner, without putting it into the grass. Luckily things like yourself, turned out ok. Im doing a police driving course at the moment and Im finding that the instruction is helping me read corners better. Hopefully i can put this into riding once I hit the twisty stuff.
Just went on a blast for a few miles, I've got to learn not to be so eager and be smoother.
slow down you silly sausage:smt045
EDIT: Oh, another point, everything in this thread, and the references linked to, does not only apply on country roads. It applies just as much in a heavily populated city as it does at the top of a mountain. Observation isn't only about what you can see, it's about allowing others to see you (if they happen to be looking).
I would argue that positioning for bends is much less likely to be appropriate in an urban environment.
Remember at 30 mph how far round a corner do you need to see? certainly not 400 yards.
And if you keep left for a right hander, you'll just get someone overtake you, better to command your road position IMHO.
I would argue that positioning for bends is much less likely to be appropriate in an urban environment.
Remember at 30 mph how far round a corner do you need to see? certainly not 400 yards.
And if you keep left for a right hander, you'll just get someone overtake you, better to command your road position IMHO.
You obviously didn't read through the link that I posted.
SSV.
Safety. Stability. Vision. In that order. My point wasn't about positioning on bends, it was more about letting other people see you (still a part of vision, but also more importantly safety).
That's not a near miss, that's using the full width of the road and utilising the roads features to the maximum - Thats STYLE, well done!!:D :D :smt104
Ceri JC
05-07-07, 06:46 PM
Remember at 30 mph how far round a corner do you need to see? certainly not 400 yards.
Yep, this a point made in the police riders handbook (that at lower speeds where you can already more than comfortably stop in the distance you can see to be clear, there is little benefit) and it mentions that this reduced speed may well be due to a slow vehicle in front, as well as low speed limits.
The reason why I would (usually) try to be near the middle of the road on left handers changes (primarily to be seen by other traffic, rather than to increase my view), but I still stay there. On right handers though, I tend to go in the middle of the lane to stop people attempting dodgy overtakes round bends (because if they c0ck up, you know they're going to choose sideswiping you over a head on with a car coming the other way).
You obviously didn't read through the link that I posted.
SSV.
Safety. Stability. Vision. In that order. My point wasn't about positioning on bends, it was more about letting other people see you (still a part of vision, but also more importantly safety).
No I didn't as I suspect a lot of others reading the thread also might not, so I'm still glad I cleared up a potential misunderstanding, but accept at least you know what you're talking about :)
Lots of interesting comments and thoughts in there and as ever I want to throw my thoughts in.
I'm with Sosha on the vanishing point theory. It doesn't tell you anything about how appropriate your speed is. It merely give an indication as to what the corner is doing.
I can go round a corner at 10mph and have the vanishing point coming towards me. There's not much I can't get round at that speed though.
However If you are at a speed where you cannot corner any harder and the corner tightens then you might not be able to make it round. I believe it is this situation some people mis-interpret to mean vanishing point coming towards you means you're going to fast.
I think using all of the road is valid. However there is a time and a place for it as has been discussed. I could benefit from doing it a bit more but I'm happy that most of the time my positioning, speed and observation combination are sufficient for the roads I tend to ride. Should something in the equation change then I'd review that.
Something that hasn't been mentioned on the subject of road positiong and that I'll throw it in for discussions is consideration of the possible effect of other possible road users. Ie rounding a blind bend on a nice sunny afternoon on the weekend you might well yourself on top of a cyclist or horse rider. This can give you something you need to get round or might cause another vehicle to encroach upon your side of the road.
I've not read 'Roadcraft' though it's probably back on my to-do list.
As for using the brakes or not - I was talking about this to Jar earlier. I'm glad Baph said he was quicker when he used them - I should f'kin hope so. Not using your brakes is ok if you're riding gently and or wish to conserve fuel, tyres, chain, brakes but if it's your intention to make best possible progress then you should absolutely be using them.
Something that hasn't been mentioned on the subject of road positiong and that I'll throw it in for discussions is consideration of the possible effect of other possible road users. Ie rounding a blind bend on a nice sunny afternoon on the weekend you might well yourself on top of a cyclist or horse rider. This can give you something you need to get round or might cause another vehicle to encroach upon your side of the road.
If the vehicle/person you come across is on your side of the road, then firstly, they aren't doing their utmost to be safe (I was always taught when walking in the countryside, to walk around the outside of bends), but also, your position in the road should allow you to see most things lurking around the corner. Very little should supprise you. You should also be carrying enough speed that you can alter your line, and/or stop if you need to. Of course, in reality stopping distance is rarely taken into account for many bends, but the theory still stands.
As for using the brakes or not - I was talking about this to Jar earlier. I'm glad Baph said he was quicker when he used them - I should f'kin hope so. Not using your brakes is ok if you're riding gently and or wish to conserve fuel, tyres, chain, brakes but if it's your intention to make best possible progress then you should absolutely be using them.
BSB/WSB riders use brakes just before the corners, and how fast do they ride?
You can't count on other people being safe, you can't count on them at all. Walking on the outside of bends is all very well but cyclists and horseriders aren't going to follow that.
A blind bend is by definition one you can't see round
Road position can alter how early you can see them but the scenario is that you are already in the corner when you see them.
Not sure I like the phrase "carrying enough" part of "carrying enough speed that you can alter your line". Though the second bit I get and is the important bit, but a lot of the earlier posts seem to imply riding at speeds where this is not possible. As for stopping whilst cornering - Definatlely beyond my abilities above perhaps 30mph.
Don't get what your point is about "BSB/WSB riders use brakes just before the corners, and how fast do they ride?"
You can't count on other people being safe, you can't count on them at all. Walking on the outside of bends is all very well but cyclists and horseriders aren't going to follow that.
A blind bend is by definition one you can't see round
Road position can alter how early you can see them but the scenario is that you are already in the corner when you see them.
Now you're being pedantic. :rolleyes:
As I said, very little should supprise you. Inevitably something will. As an example, on the ride-up to the AR campsite, we had a couple of pretty gentle bends. I'm not sure what speed we were doing, but I'll refer to it as NSL (it wasn't far off one way or the other). Half way around the right bend were 3 horses. These were seen pretty late, but hitting the brakes pretty hard got me down to a reasonable speed (to be passing horses). However, I also went down the gearbox blipping the throttle. Probably not the best of ideas, but it was instinctive.
As for stopping whilst cornering - Definatlely beyond my abilities above perhaps 30mph.
Don't get what your point is about "BSB/WSB riders use brakes just before the corners, and how fast do they ride?"
Stopping on a bend, at 30mph, is entirely possible. However, this obviously depends on the severity of the bend in question. There's quite a few bends around where I ride that I could comfortably come to a complete stop on, when travelling at 30mph. However, as a general rule, these are higher speed corners.
The comment about BSB/WSB was a simple one. The aim of the game for them is to complete the track in the shortest time possible. For them, that means flat out on bends, brakes hard, then smooth around the corners. Granted they take a different line, but it illustrates road riding (hard road riding) sufficiently other than their chosen positioning.
plowsie
06-07-07, 11:09 AM
Mods can i apply for a name change "discussion re:cornering?"
plowsie
06-07-07, 11:10 AM
jeez plowsie, you arent ahppy unless your trying to crash are you huni??
well saved.x
Always testing the limits ;):rolleyes:
Ceri JC
06-07-07, 11:17 AM
As for stopping whilst cornering - Definatlely beyond my abilities above perhaps 30mph.
Really?! That sounds pretty dangerous to me. I know it's not uncommon (one of my friends can't do it either), but it is possible to brake round bends. I think part of the problem is that because it's tricky, all the way through training you're told not to. So people never learn/think it's impossible.
Yes, you do have to do it gently (I belive the general rule is more gently the greater the angle of lean), and more smoothly than you could normally get away with and that braking does tend to make the bike stand upright. For prolonged/more hard braking, or on tight bends, you may even need to get off the brakes, turn the bike then recommense braking in a straight(ish) line.
I don't want to make out that I'm some sort of riding God, because I'm certainly not, but I've braked to a stop round a (gentle to start with, but tightening up as it went round) bend from about 80 before now. It was necessary because the brake lights of a car further up the bend came into view. I started braking, after about 1.5 seconds it became apparent the car was either stationary, or moving very slowly. Indicator comes on, it turns out he's turning right. About another second later it's clear he is completely stationary. Car coming the other way, so the only option was to stop (or put it in the hedge). I stopped with about 10M to spare.
If you can't alter your speed round a bend, there's little point in doing anything about your positioning, as when you see something further round the bend that you have to stop for, what are you going to do? :D
Twice I've had other riders complain that they nearly ran into the back of me when I braked round a bend (when I could see a car about to pull out and on the other occassion, a truck on the wrong side of the road). They seemed to be of the opinion that it was unreasonable to brake round bends. Fair enough, if they're not happy doing it, they don't have to, but they should expect other road users to do it and follow at a safe distance (IE add more stopping distance).
Unless you crawl (which is in itself dangerous as other vehicles, particularly cars nail it round bends) you will need to brake round a bend sooner or later. It's much better to learn at your own pace and time, on a corner you know to be clean of debris, etc. than it is when you're following a car a bit close for an overtake and they suddenly brake hard and turn into a side road in front of you. :-dd
This is one of those things like not using both brakes, that I cannot understand how so many people don't do, yet are still alive to tell the tale. I wonder if most people do do it, but just aren't concious of it?
Please, don't go out and try grabbing a fistfull of brake on a bend and crash after reading this. ;)
This is one of those things like not using both brakes, that I cannot understand how so many people don't do, yet are still alive to tell the tale.
Glad I'm not the only "nutter" who brakes around bends. ;)
I think I covered my use of brake before. But as a basic rule (note: basic rule), front brake, go down the gearbox using engine braking, then if I need to, rear brake.
In corners, if it's tightening on me (and it's unexpected - or I'm riding hard), light use of the rear brake. The front makes the bike stand up (for me), and can be very very useful in S bends (ie, go in hot for the first, hit the front brake to scrub speed & stand the bike up, let go & lean for the next bend).
As Ceri JC, the above is how I ride. Please don't anyone change how they ride based on my comments/experiences. If you want to give it a try, fair play, but be VERY gentle & slowly build up. Hitting the rear too hard mid-bend will lock it up & cause the rear to step out. Make sure you're comfortable with this possibility before adapting anything you do. Please.
plowsie
06-07-07, 11:28 AM
In corners, if it's tightening on me (and it's unexpected - or I'm riding hard), light use of the rear brake. The front makes the bike stand up (for me), and can be very very useful in S bends (ie, go in hot for the first, hit the front brake to scrub speed & stand the bike up, let go & lean for the next bend)
Same for me, but i use the front, naturally more than intentionally and the bike does stand up but i get it back over.
Now you're being pedantic. :rolleyes:
Sorry - I am a terrible pedant.
I'm gonna shut up now cos I didn't really see much point in my last post, yet I still posted it. I'm struggling to get across what I want to say and basically failing.
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