Red Ken is nuts

[Dicky Ticker]

I have never heard such a half baked idea as his proposal for L.E.V. in my life
£200 per day to take a truck into London from the M25.The proposal will put many small firms based within the M25 out of business and the outer firms will refuse to deliver within the M25 if not because of the £200 but the massive investment needed in replacing vehicles resulting in a glut of secondhand 3-4 year old trucks that nobody wants

comments

[stewie]

Whats the reasoning behind it ?

[northwind]

Whats the reasoning behind it ?

It's because everyone should deliver goods by bicycle. Especially fridges and the like.

Was there not some move afoot to have charging in peak time, and reduced or free off peak?

[mister c]

The London Low Emission Zone commences 4 February 2008.
The aim of the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) is to improve air quality in London by deterring the most polluting vehicles from being driven in the area. The vehicles affected are older diesel-engined lorries, buses, coaches, large vans, minibuses and other heavy vehicles that are derived from lorries and vans such as motor caravans and motorised horse boxes.
There will be a phased introduction of the scheme from 4 February 2008 through to January 2012. Different vehicles will be affected over time and increasingly tougher emissions standards will apply. Cars, motorcycles and small vans are not included in the Low Emission Zone (LEZ).

[Samnooshka]

He is deffinitly losing his marbles.... has anyine else heard about his new idea for 2012 olympics... he wants to build a massive mosque (don't know how you spell it the place where muslims go to pray), he wants to create a landmark for people to see when they get to London.....

What about St Pauls?? The houses of Parliament??? and why a mosque? it will of course be coming from tax payers money.

[Dicky Ticker]

Yes,that last post is correct but as most commercial diesel engines have a life of 800,000kms/500,000 miles it makes a mockery of the tax write down against the resale value if you can't use a vehicle after 4 years. The average
3.5t van i.e Sprinter or Transit is £25,000 and when you consider the number of vehicles used buy small business within the M25 the cost is astronomical,
go up to 7.5t and the figure steps up to £40,000. I run 5 vehicles and I would have to increase my rates by 100% which the customers will not pay so he will be putting 5 people out of work and for them that do pay the increase for the delivery of goods will only be passed on to the customer,YOU. This increases the retail price,raises inflation,which has a knock on effect on the bank rate etc.
Considering the population of London within the M25 and the 10,000,s of people involved who will just be packing up it will be putting a terrific burden on the economy.
I don,t say this light heartedly as I have sounded out over 20 firms that I deal with and we are all of the same opinion
Perhaps Northy is right, all our goods will be delivered by cycle and black cabs replaced by rickshaws

N.B. I replace vehicles on a 5 year cycle usually buying a good secondhand
1.1/2-2year old truck but there will not be the vehicles available for either new or secondhand supply

[AlanSv]

I do kind of see what he's trying to do, but its no good charging them that amount.

The problem is that there are a lot of poluting older trucks etc in the center of london, and theres no easy way of getting these excluded, or forcing the employer to update.

Phasing in may help, at least he should go after the 10 year old plus trucks/buses/coaches I see bellowing out black smoke every day.

of course if he included taxis that would be even better

[stewie]

As soon as this scheme thing comes into force, be prepared for higher prices, cos transport firms will pass the cost on which will mean living in London is gonna get more expensive, plus some firms will throw there hand in and give it up, so there could be initially fewer firms to cover the runs which could mean shortages, although tbh that probably wont happen. Lets face it if you were a transport firm running daily deliveries into london e.g. tesco,s , Robert wisemans dairies,food deliveries etc.. would you be happy with a £1400 a week added charge per vehicle ?

[ethariel]

Forget the trucks, let him dip into his already overflowing coffers (well, were overflowing before we were cursed by the Olympic bid) and replace all the disel fume belching buses out there to start with, afterall they are HIS buses anyway!!

Red Ken has indeed gone power mad, i just hope to god someone runs against him this time round, 99% chance they get my vote, almost anything is better than him.

[tigersaw]

Red Ken has indeed gone power mad, i just hope to god someone runs against him this time round, 99% chance they get my vote, almost anything is better than him.

I heard Boris Johnson was thinking about it

[northwind]

I like Boris Johnson. Read his book Jottings from the Stump, it's ace. Not nearly such a fool as he'd like you to think.

The thing about putting restrictions on anything but very new vehicles is that it increases the replacement cycle, which is bad. A vehicle doesn't suddenly become more polluting after 4 years... But building and importing a new one is massively polluting. This just moves the problem to the production side.

At the moment, it's generally better to drive around in an old car with a dirty engine than to scrap it and buy a new one with a clean engine. I'd be surprised if the same doesn't follow for other vehicles, though commercials do more miles so they could be an exception, dunno.

[Well Oiled]

Low emission zones are nothing new - there's quite a few of them in major European cities. It's not that massive a change for most - it means that trucks and buses have to come up to Euro 3 emissions standard to enter the low emission zone. Euro 3 was introduced in 2001 so any truck or bus with a '51' plate or younger (7 years old when the reg's come in) will comply. Those that don't may be able to be retro-fitted with aftertreatment to clean up emissions.

There's increasing statistical evidence of a link between diesel particulate emissions and lung cancer. If you ban smokers from subjecting you to passive inhalation of smoke, why shouldn't you do the same to drivers? Busy streets in rush hour in london are not a nice place to be, especially when stood near the back of a smoky old truck.

[RhythmJunkie]

Hi guys, I'm new here and its a great feeling to see normal people who care about stuff debating reality. The giant mosque is ridiculous and you can sign a petition on this site if you wish. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ScrapMegaMosque/
Tax payers money can be better spent even though muslims are paying plenty of tax I'm sure that even they would prefer that the money be spent more wisely, and at a time when we are virtually at war with the middle east this sort of thing just drives a wedge between the different communities.
Building a huge church would be just as ridiculous!

Smokey vehicles hits a sore nerve with me because diesel fumes give me asthma, nothing else does so I guess I have an allergic reaction. Being a biker makes sitting behind these vehics impossible but what Mad Ken is proposing is just using "dynamite to crack an egg". Overkill of the most disrespectful kind, I'm the mayor of London and I'll do as I please.....although you always have to ask yourself, who is pulling Kens strings and who benefits most from the changes?? Believe me folks, to those in power, your health is not a priority!

[gettin2dizzy]

getting buses out of cities- ace! But what a bonkers plan! Northwind - you mentioned the production side of emissions and environmental pollution - that's what riles me the most when bikers get slated for inefficient engines. That tiny metal SV in my garage can't compare to a lexus hybrid 4x4 in manufacturing emissions. Add to that that bikes are kept until they are run in to the ground (in both ways ;) ) and even then are broken down for parts and recycled. We should be given fuel as an incentive! :)

I love the green image promoted by MPs. Did anyone see David Cameron cycling in to London? If you watched carefully there was a huge black 4x4 behind full of bodyguards!! Such media nonsense! I'd like to see Kens real environmental footprint

And welcome RJ - pop a hello in idle banter to tell us a little about yourself :) we're a friendly bunch really

[RhythmJunkie]

Hi Dizzy happy to be here !
New thread inserted on a subject that maybe has been reported somewhere on here before but hey its a personal gripe which needs to be aired. We are talking battered elbow joints here and not those of the chipshop variety either! :)

[northwind]

Add to that that bikes are kept until they are run in to the ground (in both ways ;) )

Weeeelll... I read a while back that the average lifespan of a bike now is 4 years doing an average of under 6000 miles a year. Bikes to tend to have a better afterlife, with parts being extensively reused though. My real bugbear is catalytic convertors on bikes. Cats only make sense over a decent lifespan though, to outweigh the production side issues and raw material consumption, and I gather (though don't know) that most bikes will never achieve that lifespan. That's assuming the owner doesn't immediately remove it and stick it on a shelf.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Weeeelll... I read a while back that the average lifespan of a bike now is 4 years doing an average of under 6000 miles a year. Bikes to tend to have a better afterlife, with parts being extensively reused though. My real bugbear is catalytic convertors on bikes. Cats only make sense over a decent lifespan though, to outweigh the production side issues and raw material consumption, and I gather (though don't know) that most bikes will never achieve that lifespan. That's assuming the owner doesn't immediately remove it and stick it on a shelf.

Is that for first owners, or in total? :o Seems quite low to me, but of course perception on things like this can often be well off the mark.

As for cats, completely agree. But of course you're talking of a holistic view of things, and we cant let sense get in the way of political dogma now, can we?

[northwind]

Is that for first owners, or in total? :o Seems quite low to me, but of course perception on things like this can often be well off the mark.

As for cats, completely agree. But of course you're talking of a holistic view of things, and we cant let sense get in the way of political dogma now, can we?

Heh, I bet the two of us can if we try :)

Apparently it was total lifespan from buying to bits. Though I can't figure out any way to get a reliable sample for that other than questioning a huge group of riders, which I don't think they did. It gets all skewed, if Nick Sanders replied to it it all goes out the window :cool: But then, I suppose an awful lot of bikes do very low miles, the guy down the road with the GSX1300 does about 2000 miles in a good year. Or the GSXR750 that's sat in my local dealers, Cat B after 500 miles... And new bikes getting nicked as well, that'll skew it a lot since they're the number one target.

[gettin2dizzy]

I suppose another view is that most bikes aren't essential, but toys additional to a car.
But from the department of made up facts and figures (DOMUFAF) ;) i reckon 25% bikes stolen - 25 % bikes eventually written off, 25% have a hard life, 25% sit in garages pristine! Certainly bikes seem to be recycled for parts in a way cars could never be. Maybe the influx of FI systems for emissions regs are making it too hard for people to recycle parts?

[Fizzy Fish]

i'm all for cleaning up the air in London, but it has to be done in a sensible way, and i don't believe the LEZ is strictly necessary. From what i understand, the turnover of company vehicles means that the vast majority of vans, etc will be compliant in a few years anyhow.

also in practice you can't enforce this amongst foreign vehicles, and IMO it's just another example of how govt as a whole is messing up our freight industry. free markets are all well and good, but it should be a level playing field and not skewed in favour of european companies...
:smt076

but that said i can't bring myself to hate ken cos he pays my wages and keeps me in motorcycles... :D

[Jelster]

Why is London the only major European City that doesn't have "Trams" ??

I know we have a few here & there, but surely an overground tram network would be a much better idea than smokey (and 18m long) busses.

As for the trucks, well personally I'd like to see a size limit for inner London rather than just trying to hit the older ones.

The problem with Ken Livingstone is that he believes his own bull and won't listen to alternatives. He is too much of an egomaniac to be able to do the job properly, and he's not a man of the people, he just like to think he is.

.

[RhythmJunkie]

Its possibly cos the people who live along the proposed routes don't want trams. There was massive opposition and disruption and loss of business in Sheffield when they built the tram system there. Its been running at a big loss ever since it was built, who foots the bill, local tax payers yet again.
Have a butchers at the London problem.
http://www.ealingstreets.org/2006_elections.htm

[Fizzy Fish]

the tram thing is a funny one. in theory everyone seems to like them, and there are several London schemes in the pipeline (e.g. the West London Tram which RhythmJunkie mentioned, an extension to the existing Croydon Tram, and a service running from N to S through the City)

but there tends to be quite a lot of opposition from local residents, they are pricy to put in, and can cause more traffic congestion, so are not always the best solution to the porblem as it were

oh and just out of interest WTF voted Ken in?? noone seems to like him much but someone must have put a tick in his box on the ballot paper!!

anyway it's election time again next year so let's see what happens...

[Dicky Ticker]

Just tell me where to put a big X for out

[northwind]

it will of course be coming from tax payers money.

Just remembered this post- apparently it's not getting 1p of public money.

[RhythmJunkie]

Have you seen the ad where the government are saying that people on benefits are stealing money from taxpayers? What....and the ministers don't??

[muffles]

Why is London the only major European City that doesn't have "Trams" ??

I know we have a few here & there, but surely an overground tram network would be a much better idea than smokey (and 18m long) busses.

Perhaps some kind of underground tram network - like a big underground "tube"? :-k You know, it might just work...






:p

[ASM-Forever]

Perhaps some kind of underground tram network - like a big underground "tube"? :-k You know, it might just work...

I also had a similar revelation.....patent pending ;) :D

[muffles]

I also had a similar revelation.....patent pending ;) :D

Ah but does yours run on (non smoky) electricity like my brilliant idea!:idea:

[RhythmJunkie]

Underground...read...toooo expenseeeeve!

[Swiss]

He is deffinitly losing his marbles.... has anyine else heard about his new idea for 2012 olympics... he wants to build a massive mosque (don't know how you spell it the place where muslims go to pray), he wants to create a landmark for people to see when they get to London.....

What about St Pauls?? The houses of Parliament??? and why a mosque? it will of course be coming from tax payers money.

Hi guys, I'm new here and its a great feeling to see normal people who care about stuff debating reality. The giant mosque is ridiculous and you can sign a petition on this site if you wish. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ScrapMegaMosque/
Tax payers money can be better spent even though muslims are paying plenty of tax I'm sure that even they would prefer that the money be spent more wisely, and at a time when we are virtually at war with the middle east this sort of thing just drives a wedge between the different communities.
Building a huge church would be just as ridiculous!

Smokey vehicles hits a sore nerve with me because diesel fumes give me asthma, nothing else does so I guess I have an allergic reaction. Being a biker makes sitting behind these vehics impossible but what Mad Ken is proposing is just using "dynamite to crack an egg". Overkill of the most disrespectful kind, I'm the mayor of London and I'll do as I please.....although you always have to ask yourself, who is pulling Kens strings and who benefits most from the changes?? Believe me folks, to those in power, your health is not a priority!

The Mega Mosque turned out to be a rumour started by a few key players in the BNP.

[Alpinestarhero]

The Mega Mosque turned out to be a rumour started by a few key players in the BNP.

Good ol' BNP, stirring it up. But I do wish they'd stick in that little black hole from wence they came

Matt

[northwind]

There's a tiny kernel of truth in it- there's plans to build a fairly big mosque. How dare they! :rolleyes: Still, it does help to show once again how bad these petitions are, people will sign up to anything.

[RhythmJunkie]

The people I spoke to thought that if it 'was' built the money could have been better allocated....ok it looks like a hoax....but it does show public opinion to a certain extent. I noticed there was a petition for the BMF against the spillage of diesel but the numbers signing it were quite poor! Does this mean we feel more strongly about wasted tax payers money than we do about wasted diesel killing bikers? Nothings changed then!! :rolleyes:

[northwind]

Does this mean we feel more strongly about wasted tax payers money than we do about wasted diesel killing bikers?

It means it's easier to motivate people with a lie than it is to motivate people with a simple truth and a good cause... And also, probably, that it's easier to get people to be suspicious of anything involving muslims than it is to get people to actually help each other.