View Full Version : How important is running in a new engine properly?
I'm just curious because I know someone who doesn't care and treats a new bike as he would a fully run in bike. I'm talking modern sportsbikes, twins and fours.
:)
kwak zzr
05-08-07, 09:04 AM
i think its important if your going to keep the bike for years and years and clock up 30 - 40k on it, if you only keep the bike a few years then get rid i dont think its that important, running in properly prepares the engine for maximum engine life but who ever keeps a bike for that long?
Blue_SV650S
05-08-07, 09:12 AM
...if you only keep the bike a few years then get rid i dont think its that important ...
Just coz you will be getting shot of it before it causes problems don't mean it doesn't matter ... well that is unless you are a bar steward and don't care about the future owner!! ;)
There are 2 clear schools of thought on this, run it in fast, everything seats properly and quickly, do it slow and the engine is likely to be less powerful and use more oil.
There is plenty of blurb on this nature on the net if you are truly interested :)
kwak zzr
05-08-07, 10:12 AM
Just coz you will be getting shot of it before it causes problems don't mean it doesn't matter ... well that is unless you are a bar steward and don't care about the future owner!! ;)
MIGHT cause problems;) ive had plenty of used bikes and cars and i might add that not many people look after them like i do.
I've seen some of the blurb Blue but it looks like a big advert trying to sell you something at the end of it!
:)
northwind
05-08-07, 12:32 PM
There are 2 clear schools of thought on this, run it in fast, everything seats properly and quickly, do it slow and the engine is likely to be less powerful and use more oil.
There is plenty of blurb on this nature on the net if you are truly interested
Yup, but how much do we trust it is the question? I know I'd rather have a bike that was broken in hard than too soft, that's the worst option of all. Barrels and rings definately seem to like a fast break in, who knows about the rest? If I ever do my busa piston swap, I'll be getting YPE to run it in on their dyno for me, since the bottom end's nicely run in at 30-odd thousand miles :-D (plus, it was a demonstrator once so it was probably doing wheelies the day after its 500 mile service :mrgreen:
Blue_SV650S
05-08-07, 07:03 PM
Yup, but how much do we trust it is the question? I know I'd rather have a bike that was broken in hard than too soft, that's the worst option of all. Barrels and rings definately seem to like a fast break in, who knows about the rest? If I ever do my busa piston swap, I'll be getting YPE to run it in on their dyno for me, since the bottom end's nicely run in at 30-odd thousand miles :-D (plus, it was a demonstrator once so it was probably doing wheelies the day after its 500 mile service :mrgreen:
My dad is old skool ... last couple of cars he has bought he has asked about running them in ... they have said 'you don't need to, just drive normally sir'.
Not only is engineering so precise these days and oil so good, to be fair, who can mercilessly 'thrash' a bike for long periods anyway (on the road), things get in the way like villages or tractors!! :D for it to be on song too long :)
northwind
05-08-07, 07:16 PM
I just opened up one of the broken engines I had in the garage, some bits of it look like they were machined out with a wood chisel :)
Blue_SV650S
05-08-07, 07:23 PM
I just opened up one of the broken engines I had in the garage, some bits of it look like they were machine out with a wood chisel :)
Now I know you love your SVs, but you trying to tell me Jesus makes SV engines?!?!? :D
Alpinestarhero
05-08-07, 07:28 PM
I know of a guy who blew up two kawasaki zx6r engines from thrashing it from new
He had to pay for the third engine after he fessed up that he didint run it in as per the book
Matt
northwind
05-08-07, 07:37 PM
but you trying to tell me Jesus makes SV engines?!?!? :D
His dad was the carpenter, he was just a waster hippy ;)
Blue_SV650S
05-08-07, 07:49 PM
His dad was the carpenter, he was just a waster hippy ;)
Yes Jesus was 'a carpenters son', but isn't God, Jezus, the Holy Spirit etc etc all the same dude anyway??? I can't remember, I just remember it all being very confusing and highly improbable/unbelievable*!!!! :smt051 :D
*But then I suppose that is why they call it 'faith' ;)
it was a demonstrator once so it was probably doing wheelies the dayS BEFORE its 500 mile service :mrgreen:
So does that make demonstrators good buys?
northwind
05-08-07, 08:18 PM
Nah, this place ran them in nice for the first 500 miles, I saw them doing it with their superduke- it was quite funny watching the mechanics argue about who had to take it out "It's just wrong, riding it slowly"
Steve_God
06-08-07, 09:33 AM
It you want maximum performance, then trash it from new - just don't expect the engine to last forever...
If you want the bike to be reliable, and last many many years without too much hassle, run it is properly as per the manual (or loosely stick to it at least).
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 09:48 AM
It you want maximum performance, then trash it from new - just don't expect the engine to last forever...
If you want the bike to be reliable, and last many many years without too much hassle, run it is properly as per the manual (or loosely stick to it at least).
And what do you base these statements on?
[quote=Blue_SV650S;1254149]Yes Jesus was 'a carpenters son'.....[quote]
So God is a chippie? I need a door hanging.
Me dressed up for a fancy dress party last year:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3024/image0801kx4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
:mrgreen:
(The hairy face is real)
Biker Biggles
06-08-07, 10:55 AM
So it was you nicked my carpet.:confused:
As for running in-------Again chestnut old that.Nuff said.;)
kwak zzr
06-08-07, 11:25 AM
And what do you base these statements on?
i base this statement on a test report that MCN did about 4 years ago with 2 new gixer600's one was thrashed run in and the other per book, both engines where then put on a dyno and then stripped to see engine wear, the thrashed one did give more bhp than the correctly run in engine but there was already signs of wear on the thrashed engine.
Steve_God
06-08-07, 12:07 PM
And what do you base these statements on?
Many hours/days of reading up on the subject from a wide variety of sources last year when I was in the process of buying a new K6.
kwak zzr's reply being one of the sources I came across! :)
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 12:17 PM
Many hours/days of reading up on the subject from a wide variety of sources last year when I was in the process of buying a new K6.
kwak zzr's reply being one of the sources I came across! :)
Oh right, you just worded it with such authority and as if it was first hand, that it was as if it was something you had actually experimented with and come to a conclusion - not just read about like the rest of us!! ;)
northwind
06-08-07, 12:40 PM
Thing is, most of the comparative tests overlook that if you take 2 engines and run them in exactly the same, there might be differences in wear and in power... You'd need big samples and laboratory conditions to get reliable results, and the only people that have those resources are engine manufacturers... THey ain't telling :(
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 12:46 PM
Thing is, most of the comparative tests overlook that if you take 2 engines and run them in exactly the same, there might be differences in wear and in power... You'd need big samples and laboratory conditions to get reliable results, and the only people that have those resources are engine manufacturers... THey ain't telling :(
Precisely ... if every engine was the same there would be no need to 'blue-print' ;)
The tolerances are pretty tight, but there WILL be difference … what are they considering 'considerable differences'?? Probably fractions of mm, more than likely just manufacturing tolerances and jurno BS/poetic licence ;)
Would you put ANY weight on an MCN report??? I don’t think much of what they do would hold up against true scientific scrutiny!! :D
lukemillar
06-08-07, 01:12 PM
....... and the only people that have those resources are engine manufacturers... THey ain't telling :(
Doesn't embee work in engine design and manufacture??? He said this in another thread....
This is another topic where too many times people talk in terms of black and white - bee too gentle vs thrash it.
Break-in is a progressive process and should be done correctly, end of.
Sliding speed is the critical issue for the first phase of piston/liner interface break-in, new components have very small contact areas and frictional heat generated can cause the oil film to break down and lead to micro-welding and tearing of the surfaces, this will not subsequently heal. Sorry but that's a fact of life, and no amount of ah-but's can change it. This phase is more akin to a machining process than a wear process.
Use moderate engine speeds for the first couple of hours and you'll get through this phase.
Then progressively increase speeds and loads, using higher speeds at light load and following on with high load at the lower speeds, and progressively bring the speed load combinations up the rev range. By about 20hrs/600mls on a road-based break-in you should be using near full power occasionally.
Is 600miles of controlled use such a big issue? Just do it and then get on and enjoy the bike.
Production engines are manufactured and built under strict process control so it's very unlikely that incorrect clearances/nips/overstands etc are built into it. Design and development processes ensure that the new engine is tolerant of "abuse" without failure, but that's not to say that everyone should do a "cold-scuff" test on their new engine just because it can survive it.
...but at the end of the day it's your engine so do with it what you will......
northwind
06-08-07, 02:45 PM
That's a good bit of quoting there lukemillar, cheers- Embee's someone to listen to I reckon.
Steve_God
06-08-07, 03:40 PM
Oh right, you just worded it with such authority and as if it was first hand, that it was as if it was something you had actually experimented with and come to a conclusion - not just read about like the rest of us!! ;)
Although I may not have had first hand experience in the actual testing, with currently studying molecular science, I fully understand the scientific reasoning behind both paths of thought and the ways that the engine and material components are affected in the 'bedding in' process. But other than that, yes, I'm in the same boat as the rest having to read about it :p
freakin it
06-08-07, 03:58 PM
all hail embee
:notworthy:
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 03:59 PM
Although I may not have had first hand experience in the actual testing, with currently studying molecular science, I fully understand the scientific reasoning behind both paths of thought and the ways that the engine and material components are affected in the 'bedding in' process. But other than that, yes, I'm in the same boat as the rest having to read about it :p
Just a simple "No, I don't know any more than I have read either" would have done!! :mrgreen:
Ceri JC
06-08-07, 04:05 PM
Thing is, most of the comparative tests overlook that if you take 2 engines and run them in exactly the same, there might be differences in wear and in power... You'd need big samples and laboratory conditions to get reliable results, and the only people that have those resources are engine manufacturers... THey ain't telling :(
And indeed, even they won't run the engines to 100,000+ miles. Can you imagine the cost in running say 20 engines for that long (when you factor in paying people to ride them, tyres, servicing, etc)? Also then things like the rider comes into it, some ham-fisted or stunt-inclined person is going to wear the engine very differently to a bike copper.
I have heard stories of factories buying back v. high mileage, single owner bikes at very generous prices for R&D purposes on engines that are long running and hence worth it (EG the BMW boxer twin).
I can advise against the 'merciless thrashing from day one' idea after hearing about my mate.
He bought a new Daytona 955i last october in edinburgh, rode it home (250miles in one go), rode around for 100miles the next day, then rode down to the garage for the first service the day after. According to him he was gentle, but knowing his riding style and mentality, it was more like stick to the ton up the A9 and up and down the gears elsewhere giving it the berries as thats the way he rode it every day since......
...until the beginning of last month at 6000miles and 8months later.
BANG! goes the Trumpet. The bike was taken to the garage by van where it was stripped. The verdict was no payout on the warranty due to tell-tale signs of excessive wear, outwith normal limits. (i'm summarising here, cant remember the exact wording myself).
He cant afford a new lump so is looking at 2nd hand engine in a bike thats under a year old. Can't say I'd be chuffed with that senario having forked out £7k plus on a bike. Is it worth the risk?
Can you imagine the cost in running say 20 engines for that long (when you factor in paying people to ride them, tyres, servicing, etc)? Also then things like the rider comes into it, some ham-fisted or stunt-inclined person is going to wear the engine very differently to a bike copper.
I would have thought they would run in sets of engines on jigs rather than full bike tests.:smt102
kwak zzr
06-08-07, 04:24 PM
the place i got my VW from said they had come across a one owner golf with 600,000 miles on the clock on the same engine, VW was that impressed they had the golf off the owner and gave him a new one:) bet they had that engine open:)
or that statement could have been just to help flog me a vw.
RhythmJunkie
06-08-07, 07:26 PM
The racing community don't get time to run things in in a time honoured fashion and they don't have problems, and they get to see what happens to the bits regularly! Its no good thrashing a recently rebuilt engine and end up losing 4hp and finishing 5th! So the initial thrash to make everything seat seems to ring true.
Did you not read the stuff about the factory blokes at the end of the production line when they redline the engines to get the seating process started? Then they say don't rev it beyond 5k for the first 500 miles???? Uh?
Do I sense a contradiction here??
Not the easiest site to navigate but there's some interesting info for the persistent!
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
northwind
06-08-07, 07:32 PM
The racing community don't get time to run things in in a time honoured fashion and they don't have problems, and they get to see what happens to the bits regularly!
Yep, but how many racing engines do 50000 miles without major servicing? What people do in racing isn't always applicable at all to the street.
RhythmJunkie
06-08-07, 07:45 PM
Thats not to say that there's a horse power/reliability trade off long term.
From what I've read about unreliability through thrashism, its certain bits of the engine getting to too high a temperature that does the damage! As long as the engine isn't run too hot above the redline then it 'should' be ok!
Its 'abuse' that breaks the camels back not work!
The bikes that failed the people I've known if my memory serves were all owned by thrashaholics!
Even the manufacturers say that lasting damage is caused when running in by getting the engine temperature too high which is easy when running in as we all know....erm...don't we??
Revs are good, stress is bad, high temps are bad, heavy throttle+high gear is bad! High revs small load velly velly good! :)
RhythmJunkie
06-08-07, 07:48 PM
Very difficult with the old aircooled bikes to keep the temperature down when running in cos there was no temp gauges back then! You just got the strong whiff of cremated oil wafting up between your legs.....always a bad sign I find! ;)
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 08:19 PM
Yep, but how many racing engines do 50000 miles without major servicing? What people do in racing isn't always applicable at all to the street.
You could also argue that 5000 race miles is equal to 50,000 road miles!! rev-to-rev ... stress-to-stress!!! ;)
The most interesting thing would be to thrash one from new and one to the book, then ridden exactly the same thereafter ... wonder what the difference would be then??
Oh and consensus is that most engine wear happens when the bike is cold, its the thrashoholics that do it from cold that are the ones the blow the engines in no time ;)
I think we all agree that evidence and logic seem to point that a thrashed from new engine produces more power and uses less oil ... its the durability that we just can't decide and don't have conclusive evidence for!!!
Unfortunately it is hard to get a statistically significant figure as there are so many variables, not only riding style but weather conditions and oils used etc.
We are unlikely to get a statistically significant number of engines set up in a 'controlled' environment to ever fully know.
But that doesn't stop us hypothesising or making an educated guess ;)
What you have to also think about is that just because something is fast run to 'fit' it doesn't necessarily mean that after that it is going to wear faster ... for example ... say optimum clearance is 0.1mm on widget A ... it starts off at 0.05mm ... engine 1 is thrashed from new .. that clearance wears to 0.1 pretty quick ... engine 2 takes 600 miles to get there ... but once they are both there why should one wear quicker than the other?
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 08:23 PM
Very difficult with the old aircooled bikes to keep the temperature down when running in cos there was no temp gauges back then! You just got the strong whiff of cremated oil wafting up between your legs.....always a bad sign I find! ;)
It wasn't keeping the temp down that was the problem, it was keeping it consistent ... the aircooled bikes had to run much greater tolerances as they would have to operate with a hot running variance of say 40deg over a LC that is say 10deg. (I made them figures up, but I am sure you can see what I am saying ... pull up to a set of lights on an LC and it takes a while to bring all that water up in temp .. on an Aircooled it takes much less time as you only have the metal ... also heat transfer is much less efficient) ... also LC is thermostatically controlled ...
northwind
06-08-07, 08:30 PM
You could also argue that 5000 race miles is equal to 50,000 road miles!! rev-to-rev ... stress-to-stress!!! ;)
Yup, lots of people do say that, but it's not really the case... Some of the stresses are higher, some are lower. Look at the Honda "chocolate cam" debacle, the engines were extensively tested under extremely high stress conditions and worked perfectly, but when exposed to road conditions they fell to pieces.
The example I always use for talking about race stresses vs road stresses is motorways- say you spend a couple of hours over 100mph on motorways. No, autobahns, that's better as it doesn't involve me confessing to criminal offences :) That's an entirely different set of stresses from what you get on track, long duration, high rep low stress affects parts differently than short duration, high stress. Course, a Busa or similiar wouldn't notice that, but with the SV you're running much closer to the top of its operating range for extremely long periods.
northwind
06-08-07, 08:35 PM
Thats not to say that there's a horse power/reliability trade off long term.
Of course not. But it's also not to say there isn't. That accursed mototune site doesn't really approach it at all (I've always wondered why so many people are so keen to disbelieve the manufacturers and builders, but so quick to trust that website?)
The other other hand (I think I'm up to about 5 hands now) is that most bikes won't get to the end of their natural lifespan anyway, IIRC a UK bike will do an average of 4000 miles a year! So in the huge majority of cases it won't matter in the slightest if the lifespan's reduced, because it won't get there anyway. What's more relevant for most is the risk of short term catastrophic failure, but really there's not a lot of good info out there- even when you do have failures to look at diagnosis is very hard.
Blue_SV650S
06-08-07, 08:38 PM
Yup, lots of people do say that, but it's not really the case... Some of the stresses are higher, some are lower. Look at the Honda "chocolate cam" debacle, the engines were extensively tested under extremely high stress conditions and worked perfectly, but when exposed to road conditions they fell to pieces.
The example I always use for talking about race stresses vs road stresses is motorways- say you spend a couple of hours over 100mph on motorways. No, autobahns, that's better as it doesn't involve me confessing to criminal offences :) That's an entirely different set of stresses from what you get on track, long duration, high rep low stress affects parts differently than short duration, high stress. Course, a Busa or similiar wouldn't notice that, but with the SV you're running much closer to the top of its operating range for extremely long periods.
Uhuh, but I think that is more akin to considering that a 'sales rep' 100,000 mile car (90% 70mph motorway) over Granny 10,000 miles car shops-and-back ... job ... than it is to thrashed/raced to non raced ...
I thought they used the dyno to run the engines in for racing, then started work on the electronics packages (where its allowed, of course).
Rides Duke 1098 was run in on BSDs dyno before they took it racing, but RiDE always was a bit weird like that ;).
northwind
06-08-07, 09:27 PM
COuld you repeat that in english :mrgreen:
What a great big can of worms! I really shouldn't read these sort of posts so late at night cos I'm taking bits in but they might not be the right bits!
Why don't engine manufacturers run the bloody things in themselves? I'm sure after the initial tools and stuff it wouldn't cost that much to them and they could throw another £150 onto the price. I'd pay that. Maybe they don't because there are a few people out there who knacker the engine by thrashing it from day one and have to go back for a new one?
Hmmmmmn. That website posted a bit earlier was the one I was talking about in the first post. Any website that has white writing on a black background, is so long and has loads of advise for "free" all for just an e-mail address can't be trusted in my book.
Can I have a hell yeah?
:cheers:
Oh yeah. I didn't talk about that website in the first post, I must've just thought it.
:rolleyes:
SV650Racer
07-08-07, 12:40 PM
Running in a new bike is also for bedding in new brakes and tyres etc. Also for bedding yourself into the new bike!
Engine wise as long as you get it up to temperature and dont go banging off the rev limiter, dropping lots of gears at once or labouring the engine it will be fine.
All my race bikes have been run in on the dyno with heat cycles and then straight onto the track for 2 sessions of gentle "is everything ok" riding and then off to race pace. I cant say one has had any problems due to this method.
On the road though..just be sensible.
northwind
07-08-07, 01:10 PM
Running in a new bike is also for bedding in new brakes and tyres etc. Also for bedding yourself into the new bike!
:thumbsup: I like that answer.
I was told by my dealer to run my bike up to 4500rpm for the first 100 miles and add 1000rpm for every 100 miles after that - this holds true for embee's "progressive" break-in theory - so I am glad I did it that way :D
Ceri JC
07-08-07, 03:06 PM
Why don't engine manufacturers run the bloody things in themselves? I'm sure after the initial tools and stuff it wouldn't cost that much to them and they could throw another £150 onto the price. I'd pay that. Maybe they don't because there are a few people out there who knacker the engine by thrashing it from day one and have to go back for a new one?
Yes, running them in on the bench (as I believe luxury car manufacturers used to do) would seem a good idea. I imagine that when you factor in the cost of replacing thrashed engines under warranty (and they do replace some that have been run in badly) it would more than negate and sales of new engines.
As SV650Racer says though, one of the benefits of running in is to get the brakes/pads to bed in, get yourself used to the bike etc.
I also think the way bikes are used these days plays a large part. I'm only 25, so don't have first hand experience of it, but talking to older people, bikes used to (primarily) be cheap transport for young single men who couldn't afford cars. As such, reliability and practicality were more important than outright speed/power (although I'm sure that sold a great many bikes too!)
The simple fact is, compared to then, most bikes (not scooters) in the UK are largely toys. They are used primarily for fun, even if they are used to commute on occassionaly. The proportion of people who use them as tools and do reasonably high mileage on them is very slim. Most 'toy' bikes are written off or sold on long before they reach the stage where the engines start to go pop.
Where I can see the purpose of bench running in an engine to ensure the greatest longevity, is in 'practical' bikes and big tourers (divvys, dullsvilles, bmws, goldwings, pans, etc.) where a far greater number of them will eventually do 100K miles.
Yes, running them in on the bench (as I believe luxury car manufacturers used to do) would seem a good idea. I imagine that when you factor in the cost of replacing thrashed engines under warranty (and they do replace some that have been run in badly) it would more than negate and sales of new engines.
The main thing is you need a building where engines run on a program constantly for hours at a time. It slows production down and that's the big cost. You want a car to be assembled and out the door as fast as possible to maximise profit, sitting the engine on a loaded bench (you can't rev them without load to run them in) for several hours throwing thousands of litres of fuel at this room and producing exactly nothing that can't be done by a careful first week's ownership is wasteful. Not to mention environmentally horriffic:smt100
Ceri JC
07-08-07, 03:28 PM
The main thing is you need a building where engines run on a program constantly for hours at a time. It slows production down and that's the big cost. You want a car to be assembled and out the door as fast as possible to maximise profit, sitting the engine on a loaded bench (you can't rev them without load to run them in) for several hours throwing thousands of litres of fuel at this room and producing exactly nothing that can't be done by a careful first week's ownership is wasteful. Not to mention environmentally horriffic:smt100
Fair point! :)
Hear hear. Horrific is a strong word to use! Do you run your bike on fresh air? He he.
Hear hear. Horrific is a strong word to use! Do you run your bike on fresh air? He he.
I would if I could but I can't;)
Just a shame to get no forward motion from that many car engines :(
RhythmJunkie
07-08-07, 05:25 PM
(divvys, dullsvilles, bmws, goldwings, pans, etc.)
I understand them all except "divvy's" wossat den?
The guy in the shop said that running in wasn't the problem it used to be with closer tollerances and liquid cooling (ref:Blue SV650S).
He also mentioned they get a brief run-in on the bench, which is probably what that motousa dude was on about!
It pulled cleanly from scratch and only got a bit hot when stood at the lights or in traffic.
Temperature settled down after about 400 miles but its still gaining power and smoothness after 1731 miles!
My son is heading for serious meltdown on his XVS 125 Yamahaha.
He prods the starter and wallops it down the road from cold with 'gay abandon' and its desperate for an oil change. Still goes ok and runs quiet'ish....s'pose its the lack of power thats saving its bacon!!
I understand them all except "divvy's" wossat den?
Yamaha XJ600/900 Diversion - a sheep in sheeps clothing! :D
Still a good comfy commuter though :D
RhythmJunkie
07-08-07, 05:56 PM
Ahh thanks skip! :)
northwind
07-08-07, 06:13 PM
My son is heading for serious meltdown on his XVS 125 Yamahaha.He prods the starter and wallops it down the road from cold with 'gay abandon' and its desperate for an oil change. Still goes ok and runs quiet'ish....s'pose its the lack of power thats saving its bacon!!
I had one of those... At one point I ran it down to about 300ml of oil before a change, as I was young and stupid, and it just carried on happily. A lot of the parts in it are from the 250 though, so it's very durable in some ways...
RhythmJunkie
07-08-07, 06:17 PM
Talk of the devil....who should walk through the door clutching two 1 litre bottles of Silkolene? :)
Nice to know they are reliable NW
northwind
07-08-07, 06:35 PM
Ah, no, it wasn't reliable at all :) Broke down every time it rained, and the rear exhaust header's got a deadly corrosion trap just like the 535... But, at least the engine didn't blow up.
northwind
07-08-07, 07:01 PM
deuville.
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