Tight U-Turns

[FishyMug]

Hi there, as a relatively new SV rider I'm still in the 'learning curve', I have a lot of trouble performing tight u-turns, I know practice makes perfect but has anyone got any tips, I think maybe I'm riding too to slow during the turn and relying on the steering too much :)

[ejohnh]

Hi there, as a relatively new SV rider I'm still in the 'learning curve', I have a lot of trouble performing tight u-turns, I know practice makes perfect but has anyone got any tips, I think maybe I'm riding too to slow during the turn and relying on the steering too much :)


I think I know what you mean.. When I am on full lock either way I am at once wary about not having enough motion to keep the bike up and also hesitant about turning on the power in case it is too much...:( seem to have no natural feel at take off.John

[mister c]

Same as on your CBT. Slip the clutch, use a bit more throttle & if you have to use full lock on the steering........... Oh & balance ;)

[fizzwheel]

1. look where you want the bike to go, not at the floor 2 inches in front of the front wheel.

2. Sit up and stay relaxed, remember to breathe

3. Pick the revs up and slip the clutch.

4. Control your speed by dragging the back brake, leave the front brake alone. It unsettles the bike and makes it pogo which doesnt help with the steering.

5. Tiny inputs to the controls, rather than big clumsy movement of the throttle etc etc

If your really struggling, try sitting off to one side i.e if U turning to right, sit with your left bum cheek hanging off the seat a bit, it stops you from leaning the bike to far over and also it lifts your wrists up a little and gives you a bit more leverage, also it stops you from getting your wrists trapped between the bar and tank, especially on the S model.

HTH

[charlie13]

Top tips Fizz, are you an instructor by any chance? That's exactly what my instructor told me on a refresher lesson a few months back.

[fizzwheel]

No I'm not, its just stuff I read in magazines etc when I was struggling with U turns, all of which helped me with mine.

[FishyMug]

Thanks guys, I will practise lots :cheers:

[gettin2dizzy]

Fast entry, then lots of rear brake - lock it and swing it round!

[M.C.]

i think the most importaint thing is look where you want to go

[mr.anderson]

Yeah, I also struggled just after I passed my DAS. Found the SVs have a much larger turning circle than the GS500 I did my test on.

Biggest help I find is use the rear brake to moderate speed with constant throttle and tiny adjustments from the clutch if on uneven or sloped road, also look where you want to go.

[yorkie_chris]

The SV does have a fairly wide turning circle, IMO you shouldn't be worried about the throttle, just keep the revs up and use the clutch friction zone to get you round it. (don't touch the front brake)
Practice makes perfect and carparks out of hours are excellent, U turns and figure 8s are good practice I found before doing my test. It's all a confidence thing, just chuck it around untill its second nature.

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

The SV has a terrible steering lock. Ultimately the only way to get a tight U-turn is to hit the steering lock as soon as possible when you start turning. Don't confuse this with turning it to full lock and falling over - it's easy to do! Build up slowly and make sure you keep the revs up.

It helps to counter lean when you do a tight turn - try to stay on top of the bike, if you lean the other way far enough (as in looking like you're trying to get your knee down on the side of the bike that isn't leaning) you can do really tight turns. I've seen pics of a goldwing being u-turned that way and it needs lots of practise/confidence that you're not going to drop it.

[therealvw]

That has helped me too. I am struggling with the turning it around, ALways seem to put my feet down. Something in me is saying YOUR GONNA FALL. I did a great couple of turns on the test and lessons on a ER5n . The sv though does seem to have afairly wide turning circle compared to the ER.
Revs help, get the clutch slipping, if you keep the revs steady I find it is one less thing to worry about. Back brake trailing too is a good tip. But I must also say Practice. That is one thing I will be doing more of!

[SimJ]

When I did my CBT I was encourgaed to use the back brake for a u-turn, but I did my DAS elsewhere and was promptly told to ditch the back brake as learning to do it without would encourage better technique and balance. I was dubious at first but it worked really well. Each to their own obviously. As M.C pointed out the most important thing is looking where you want to go.

[Ceri JC]

I find a combination of dragging the back brake, counter-leaning and looking down the road in the direction I want to go (rather than where I want to end up) all help. Also several sessions in an empty carpark practicing helps, but make sure you don't allow your engine/clutch to overheat. HTH.

[RhythmJunkie]

look where you want to go


...as you fall off... :p

I just lean it over as if I'm taking a tight hairpin, keep the power on, don't put too much lock on, and bobs me sons uncle! Be brave cos if you go scared at any point you'll probly end up on yer R's.

Like this and I fully recommend it as the turning circle is much smaller!
Watch at 30 - 40 seconds into the video at the tiny turning circle he achieves.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_1BJ-RgcU1I

Pity you can't learn to do this on a bouncey castle! :D

[Mark_h]

Being a bit of a U turn officianado (failed first test on it so practiced lots) Posts 4 & 9 are spot on. Extra thing that helps is to weight your outside peg. Basically push down on the foot on the outdside of the turn. And NEVER go as far as the steering lock. Is OK to knock it at some point but never leave it hard agaisnt the stop as you'll be unable to correct it in that direction.

Once you get the hang of it you can actually turn the bike tighter than full lock with a bit of lean, but basically do like Fizzwheel says and practice it when ever you can.

Always looks a lot cooler pulling off a nice U-turn rather than paddling it around or going for a three pointer.

Enjoy....

[Sid Squid]

As said above:

Hold constant throttle, don't moderate it - it's too difficult to roll it in and out smoothly at low speed, you'll load up the front suspension which changes the steering geometry and makes it harder to control, only slip the clutch if you need to go very slowly, and if you do need to don't try to moderate that either - hold both constant and control the speed with degrees of pressure on the back brake.

Practice controlling like this in a straight line first, speed up slow down just by regulating rear brake pressure - you might be surprised at how slowly you can go with confidence using these techniques. When you're happy with this, then try turning - you'll be doing feet up walking pace full lock u-turns before you know it.

[scWirral]

One of the advantages of keeping the revs up and slipping the clutch is that you get a gyroscopic effect from the rotating mass in the engine. When your road speed is up, you get a similar effect from the rotating wheels, which is why bikes are stable when rolling along and unstable when moving slowly. Car drivers who come to bikes late (like me) often take a while to feel comfortable using the revs and slipping the clutch, but it is the right way to do it.

[Pedro68]

I'm with scWirral on this one ... as a car driver of 20 years before I did my CBT and DAS, I ended up having to have an extra lesson purely to master slow-speed riding. Now this was mainly due to me falling on me R's (as someone put it) during a DAS lesson :/ It's fine practising in empty car-parks but if you lack confidence then the first thing you tend to do (well I did!) when confronted with 4" kerbs was to grab a fist full of front brake ... hence the bike became unstable and I dropped it :(

I think all the tips here are great though, and most of them echo what I learnt on that extra lesson:

1. Keep the revs constant.
2. Let the clutch out slowly until you start moving.
3. When you actually START moving, go straight ahead for a few metres first!
4. Then turn the handle-bars.
5. As you do 4. turn your head and look back down the road.
6. Try and keep the revs constant!
7. As you let the clutch out, if you find yourself going faster than you need or are comfortable with, apply a little rear brake (but not too much!) - don't ease off the throttle!
8. Sit up straight and complete the turn :)

I was lucky that after my test I had to do a U-turn every time I got home after going out on the bike :) and can concur that practise helps an awful lot! Have confidence in yourself, and the bike too, and you won't go far wrong ;-)

Pete

[carty]

This thread has inspired me to start practicing U-turns more. I was fine on my test and I was fine on my SV('s) but since I have got my gixxer I've not tried it. The turning circle on full lock is pretty terrible on the gixxer so a U-turn requires a pretty good technique, as opposed to a less track-focussed bike that is easy to U-turn.

I'm going to start practicing more I think. :thumleft:

Cheers,
Matt

[dizzyblonde]

look.faired sv's don't u turn well at all. So once a test pass is completed, unless you really need to, paddle it round. i hate u turns. it took me 4 times to pass my test purely because of them. So now 3 years later unless i really need to i don't bother. nekkid sv's have a much larger amount of play on the lock and are so much easier to manouvre. unlike my two that are like barges!

[jamesw1024]

I'm with DizzyBlonde on this one. In my opinion U-Turns are just a way of dropping your bike needlessly, slow control's defintely good to practise - figure of 8s, etc. but U-Turns - way to risky for me, I like my bike unscuffed.

[dizzyblonde]

ha ha. I'm good at slow riding. The yellow one has scars due to scary sv slow manouevres. At the end of the day all bikes are different at different things. I could do u-turns on gs's, srx's and my bus-the rebel 125 cruiser. but not any faired sv

[fizzwheel]

The SV is one of the easiest bikes to U turn that I've ridden, its just practice and technique. If you take your time and dont rush yourself then you wont drop your bike.

IMHO most people drop their bikes, because in their head they are saying "I cant do it, I cant do it, I cant do it"

I've never had a problem U turning my SV it or my GSXR... Liz's naked SV was a piece of p*ss to do U turns on.

You want difficult, you try doing it on Liz's 749....

[hovis]

& once you pass your test, just go 10 seconds futher & turn around at a junction, as you will never have to do one again, if you dont want to

[2mths]

I'm kind of missing the point here I know but...

I can more or less U turn my CG on lock, almost the same for the Katana. The SV is a pig. Things are not helped by the huge turning circle. If it's tight I leave my feet down, don't worry about it and do some paddling if necessary.

If I ever get my rear brake working again I might revisit that and try to do the whole balaning inputs thing.

At a recent BikeKraft thing the IAM had a slow control course set up (rather good fun). They were almost impressed at my control without the rear brake and ability to catch it falling with huge revs and a quick dip of the cluth. Really unstylish and had them rushing in to catch me a time or two but stayed inside the course all the way round (on that run at any rate - tried using the rear brake next run and buggered it up completely).

[ASM-Forever]

I would of considered myself quite a u-turn maestro but i nealy dropped the bike yesterday doing a tight right turn.

As usual though i blame Nick, who i was following, as he suddenly darted off down a no entry which took me completely by surprise. Unortunately i was doing circa 30 and in 2nd gear.

Actually i still consider myself competent.....just not when im bombing around the Henley one way system. :)

[ejohnh]

To tell the truth the one thing that I hate is when I find I am attempting to slow turn on full right hand lock. Seems to do my head in a bit. ](*,)

[yorkie_chris]

I'm good at slow riding.

One of the best :p

[RhythmJunkie]

Come on....own up....who has been doing a slow upright u-turn...caught there grippy boot on the road and almost dropped it? :)

This is why I like the balls-out, lean and power type u-turn, as long as you keep the power on you'll be fine....all over in a flash....good technique on a busy road cos its so quick and looks super cool! You only fall over if the bike stops rolling....tis one of those unexplainable brainiac type scientific thingies!

Here come the centrifugal warriors and gyroscopic gunners to shoot me down in flames! :(

I have only one thing to say to you....can you follow me at 1 mph at tickover just using a touch of clutch to either keep or slow momentum....if so then how does your gyrofugal thingy work then...erm then!? ;)

[2mths]

I've never got my pointy to register just 1mph on teh speedo.

[sarah]

how does your gyrofugal thingy work then...erm then!? ;)

have a look at this (http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2182)

[RhythmJunkie]

I read the first 24 words and had to stop.

What gyroscopic bits in your engine, they are not all gyrating in the same direction at the same time and there are lots of bits going up and down too!
At 1 or even 2 mph the wheels gyroscopic effect is virtually nil....
.....and seeing as you can do the same trick on a bicycle which has no engine....my ....erm....still stands...erm ok? :)

I'm off to read the rest of the R'tickle!

[RhythmJunkie]

That would be a fast bike with a wheel rotating at 100rpm....
....approx' 350mph! :smt103 Very stable though a'la Busa! :cool:

I can see his point but you would have to sit revving the motor at about 6k for the extra stability to be noticeable....I mean....we are talking u-turns and practicality here dudes! One slip of the clutch at 6k on an SV and you could end up doing a u-turn around Pluto! :D

[2mths]

I read the first 24 words and had to stop.

What gyroscopic bits in your engine, they are not all gyrating in the same direction at the same time and there are lots of bits going up and down too!
At 1 or even 2 mph the wheels gyroscopic effect is virtually nil....
.....and seeing as you can do the same trick on a bicycle which has no engine....my ....erm....still stands...erm ok? :)

I'm off to read the rest of the R'tickle!

Gyroscopic forces come from objects rotating. You can ignore anything oscillating or "going up and down" as you put it.

As for "what gyroscopic bits" The main things rotating will be the crankshaft and flywheel and they are rotating in the same direction, as is the clutch and lets say half the gearbox(the other half will be rotating the other way so the net effect of hte gearbox is probably ~0). Still that's quite a lot of mass spinning quite quickly.

Engines do generate gyroscopic forces and they are significant. Watch a car engine being revved, you'll see it move. With some vehicles where the engine is mounted longitudinally you can see the whole car move when the engine is revved.

So the gyroscopic forces from engines can be significant.

As for your U-turn "trick" we're talking about tight turns here. By definition the tightest turn you can pull would be with the bike on full lock. Lets see you throw your bike into a quick full lock turn.

[therealvw]

Not sure if it is physciological or Physical, but I find that applying some revs and slipping the clutch helped me do my u-turns. Much better than trying to control it with just going on and off the throttle.!
Probably more stable keeping the engine spinning up around 3 -4 k and slipping clutch than having to rev and clutch and de-rev(is that a word?)
LOL

[RhythmJunkie]

2mths yes that is cool when they rev a chevy and it twists the whole car it does seem connected to power though cos the best twisters seem to be drag top fuellers! More power more twist.
Its a bit different with a little engine doing a few revs and thats what puzzles me how much is it the gyro effect keeping you upright and how much is it the actual driving grippy force that the engine is applying through the tyre?

Try doing the same u-turn just revving the engine for control and see if it works! I have a funny feeling you'll fall off! ;)

I also wonder how many of you have a broadband connection and have watched the Japanese bike cop doing the u-turns?? He does a lean over u-turn in about 12 feet thats a narrow road. More like a canal tow-path!

As for lots of whirring mass...that still doesn't explain the bicycle u-turn! ;)

[therealvw]

As for lots of whirring mass...that still doesn't explain the bicycle u-turn! ;)
Possibly due to no real weight?

[RhythmJunkie]

I think you just hit the nail on the head there 'therealvw'.

The amount of mass the motorcycle has means that any movements off-centre are going to be slow because there's a lot of mass to be moved requiring lots of 'energy'. So if you are "practised" at making lots of tiny movements to counter the movement of the bike then you can keep it stable whether its in a straight line or a constant curve! Some people will learn very quickly and others more slowly but I'll bet that that's a major reason behind the phenomenon!
When doing a u-turn you constantly move the steering to alter the centre of gravity to keep the bike upright without having to think about it, its the reason the forks have rake so that this tipping off-centre happens, its how counter-steering works.

When I worked in a foundry, ok my hands were stronger then, but I could push my CBR1000F along the smooth factory floor with one hand holding the pillion grab-rail. I even used to let the bike tip slightly so it steered left through 90 degrees to park it, all with one hand. Not a lot of gyroscopic effect there methinks? Just tiny amounts of left and right wobbles of the steering to keep it going straight using the bikes own mass to keep it upright.

You only have to look at how weird counter-steering is to know that tiny unseen movements of your body can have a very great effect on the actions of the bike.
I think its definately human skill, although gyroscopic voodoo must help a bit.
Its the same skill that enables us to walk and run on the ends of our legs without falling over! ;)

A push bike is very lightweight as 'therealvw' remarked, so its more difficult to use its mass in the same way so you are constantly waggling the steering to keep it going straight.

[fizzwheel]

A push bike is very lightweight as 'therealvw' remarked, so its more difficult to use its mass in the same way so you are constantly waggling the steering to keep it going straight.

Maybe, alot depends on the bicycle and frame geometry, my push bike is setup to steer sharply and it only needs a tiny tweak of the bars to get it to turn, I've noticed though when I've got a bit of speed on, it does respond to counter steering, but its quite radical and it nearly had me off one day.

[RhythmJunkie]

They do vary an awful lot, two cycles can look almost identical yet ride very differently.

[RhythmJunkie]

Question.....how can you use full lock on an SV cos the tank gets in the way of the bars?? Tries to squash yer hands! End up with yer wrists pressing up against the tank!

[orose]

2mths yes that is cool when they rev a chevy and it twists the whole car it does seem connected to power though cos the best twisters seem to be drag top fuellers!

Thats mostly down to the engine torque pushing through the driveshaft, and backbreakingly hard (or non-present solid) suspension. It takes a fair bit of torque to overwhelm the stickyness of a freshly burnt-out 10+inch slick, and thats just the PSM (bike) class sizes. It may be that the chevy is made of monkey metal instead of good old pig iron too, which won't hack the extra power (because it was on a diet to make it perform better :p)

With 7500hp on tap in Top Fuel, its no wonder they have wheelie bars on longer than the SV is :thumbsup:

[Mark_h]

Ref getting hands trapped between bars and tanks.

I had this on my Naked after the local suzuki agent did some work on my forks.

If it's a naked, look on the bars where they are fitted into the clamps. You'll see a little punch mark. This has to be EXACTLY in the middle of the clamp join otherwise you get this issue. Mine was probably less tham 1mm out and I nearly broke my thumb.

[RhythmJunkie]

Thanks Mark. :) I'll check that out.

[fizzwheel]

I've got my brake and clutch levers adjusted so that I could draw an imaginary straight line through my elbow to my wrists.

I find this means that my wrists are lifted up quite high and that means that the dont get trapped between the tank and bars when I'm on full lock, makes life a lot easier and more comfy to.

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

I've got my brake and clutch levers adjusted so that I could draw an imaginary straight line through my elbow to my wrists.

I find this means that my wrists are lifted up quite high and that means that the dont get trapped between the tank and bars when I'm on full lock, makes life a lot easier and more comfy to.

Ditto - you only need to rotate the bars a little to do this - makes riding much more comfy too.

You can aid tighter turns by standing up on the pegs (harder on the SV than on, say, an off-road bike) as that lets you counterbalance better. Takes practice to get used to it - the bars are a bit low really, you can end up being a bit stooped over. The IAM went white when I asked if that'd be alright. Anything that involves moving in the seat freaks them out...

[RhythmJunkie]

Yeah that makes a lot of sense fizzwheel. I mean, the bars are virtually the same settings on all the bikes but we are all different shapes and lengths! I'll have to have a tweaking session before we go away! 450 miles in one day!

[Mark_h]

Shouldn't need to move the bars at all. Just losten off the lever mounts and align them where you want them. Beware:-

1. Make sure you are V.v.v careful when next taking the lid off your brake fluid as it may now be tilted far enough to spill.

2. Make sure you do not foul the choke lever. Especially as you'll not need to use it for months then when it come to time to use it you'll find it jammed tight against the clutch lever mounting

3. Your mirrors will be looking out for passing air balloons. They'll need shifting too.

By not moving the bars you'll not risk smashing your thumbs into the tank.

[Sevorg]

er - just read this thread.....why do we want to practice U-turns? I'm all for rider training and agree every day is a riding school day but come on...we don't all live in dead end streets do we? :rolleyes:

[Mark_h]

I do :riding:

[Sevorg]

ar - should have seen that one coming!!

[kitkat]

i would just get off and walk it round

[fizzwheel]

3. Your mirrors will be looking out for passing air balloons. They'll need shifting too.

Not on a faired SV you wont... sorry shoudl have made my post clearer I was refering to the S not the N.. remember the S has clipons, if you move the levers so that the bike fits you better its much comfier and its less easy to trap your wrist between the clip on the bar to.

IMHO

[Mark_h]

You fancy S owners always make things complicated. Keep it simple, keep it naked :)

In fact, that sounds like a statement that could have uses in many scenarios.

[Lozzo]

Hi there, as a relatively new SV rider I'm still in the 'learning curve', I have a lot of trouble performing tight u-turns, I know practice makes perfect but has anyone got any tips, I think maybe I'm riding too to slow during the turn and relying on the steering too much :)

I'm assuming you've passed your full bike test, if so get off and push it round. Bloody U-turn is the single biggest reason why a fair few new riders don't go on to take a re-test after failing. It's a waste of time in my opinion and only serves to put people off riding again.

Given time and a bit more experience you'll be able to master a U-turn without too much bother, but I wouldn't worry about doing them daily, they come with practise over time.

[the white rabbit]

I agree with Lozzo, it will come with time as other skills get learned and confidence grows it will rub on in this. Either that or you can just got to a car park and really work on it.
My low speed work is really bloody awful and it doesnt help that I still avoid tight u-turns and stuff, like others ahve said. I tend to avoid awkward situations especially u-turns which when cocked up would leave you vulnerable or liable to drop the bike if goes wrong (esp. if you are short legged like me).
I tend to find the best way to do a u-turn is ride on a bit and find a wide turning or something. In general you will be back while everyone else is still messing around doing u-turns across busy roads.
Always try and make life easy, for example back into parking spaces so you can ride out easily (esp useful when you have an audience and youve ended up in a tight spot), not ending up nose down in the kerb on slight inclines etc, turning where there is most room, nudging up onto an incline so you call roll (paddle) back nicely during a turn etc.
Like Lozzo implies, there's much more important real worls skills to focus on IMO.

[leemole]

just put your foot down, no1 is lookin