Bullfighting

[The Basket]

In Spain watching the bullfighting and for the first time I got it.

Those matadors must have cajones like bowling balls:D To stand in front of a charging bull with an old curtain takes some doing.

Can you imagine trying to hold a bullfight here? That would just never happen:p

Gotta love the Spanish for telling all the weenies to get lost and carrying on regardless...If only someone did that in this country.

[Warthog]

Yes it takes balls, but it really is a disgusting way to kill an animal. Even if they eat it afterwards, its not humane in any way.

[thebluelion]

Never seen one live so cant comment

[Ceri JC]

I wanted to see one live when I was in spain, but the one day I could make it to a fight the ticket prices were huge (about £100), so I didn't bother.

I'd like to see one before the EU intervenes and bans it completely (as is inevitable).

[The Basket]

IT is said that the day the EU ban bullfighting is the day Spain leaves the EU.

[sarah]

Isn't bullfighting banned in some regions of Spain already?

[Pedrosa]

I am not aware that bullfighting is banned anywhere in Spain. The basic exhibition does go to brutal extremes in my view but there is a whole classical "performance" being played out everytime a bull enters the ring.

There are many Spaniards that voice their dissaproval of the killing of such fine beasts during a public spectacle. However there is a massive following of traditionalists who follow the Toreros and many are household names and celebrities.

Never be mistaken though that the risk to the bullfighter has been removed, the incidents of the bull coming out on top are perhaps more frequent than anyone based in the UK would ever imagine. A case in point is that one of the top 5 matadors was injured very badly just 10 days ago.

[sarah]

Isn't bullfighting banned in some regions of Spain already?

I am not aware that bullfighting is banned anywhere in Spain.



this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/22/wbull22.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/22/ixnews.html)must have been what i was thinking of

[RhythmJunkie]

My opinion....its sick and pointless!

[Pedrosa]

My opinion....its sick and pointless!

Your opinion has value in that you think it is sick. However you show ignorance of the subject matter when stating it is pointless. In fact there is a specific theme that runs through every bullfight from the entrance of the bull, with every phase carried out in pre set traditional steps. There most certainly is a point to what happens in the bullring.

*Please dont confuse my comments thinking that I am a fan or in favour of the bullfights. I have though, looked in to the whole thing before passing any comments here.* (In addition living where I do, I am exposed to much more bullfight news than yourself.):rolleyes:

[The Basket]

I was watching last week and a matador certainly got a case of toro wup-ass:p
But you pay ya money and take ya chance.
Those bulls are like walking brick poo houses and I wouldn't even go in the Plaza without a Bazooka never mind a bit of blanket. Those matadors get my seal of approval coz they are either very brave or very stupid.

TBH I love Spain. The total lack of any kind of petty rule keeping really does me. Anyway...Bull dies in bullring, bull dies in slaughterhouse...still get steak dinners.

[ASM-Forever]

TBH I love Spain. The total lack of any kind of petty rule keeping really does me. Anyway...Bull dies in bullring, bull dies in slaughterhouse...still get steak dinners.

As a link for the animal rights activists from Blue's veggie thread, it least the bull gets to spend some time outside exercising as opposed to being cooped up indoors :p.

I was taken to a bullfight by a Spanish friend a few years ago when i was holidaying over there. I have to say i found it quite fascinating to watch. :smt028

[MiniMatt]

As a historical cultural event I can understand it has some meaning, I can even appreciate there's some artistry involved. And the part of me that can't help looking at car crashes would probably like to see one.

But I can't help but think there are some things that society can do without in the name of progress. Hell, if the classical Romans were still around and doing Gladiator contests I'd probably feel the same way; it's interesting on the History channel but not something I feel has a place any more.

[The Basket]

Free range bulls!
Sweet!

[sinbad]

It's like dog fighting. It doesn't matter how much history is embedded in the tradition, you just have to ask: why do they do it now, and what would the reaction be if it was invented tomorrow, in Chesterfield? It's no different when it comes to the crunch.

Tradition is the word you use to justify something when there's no other justification for it. :)

[RhythmJunkie]

By the same logic Pedrosa there is a point to what a paedophile does.

I too have read about the reasons behind the whole spectacle but I'm afraid I just see it the same way as I see fox or deer hunting. Lots of dressing up and showing off and entertainment and socialising but at the end of the day its just another animal getting killed for entertainments sake.

Why don't they just put a camera in an abatoir and leave it running....should get pretty good viewing figures!

Maybe we should send a matador running down the streets for his life, where no-one will help him, then taunt him in an enclosure before spearing him and sticking a sword down his torso! Sounds absolutely barbaric to even think of doing the same thing to a human doesn't it! :(

Animals are so valueless...its so sad!

Maybe if an alien race visits earth and harvests mankind for food, then we will get our comeupance! ;)

Do you let your feelings be known Pedrosa or do you have to keep your opinions about bullfighting quiet?? :(

[Pedrosa]

Using the actions of a paedophile as an analogy on this thread is for me very incorrect indeed. However I will move on.....

The running of the bulls in Pamplona sees ever more people injured each year.Many of them foreigners,tanked up on alcohol who think it is fun to run with the bulls. I never have any sympathy for any of thes people when they get hurt.


I have the upmost respect for the bullfighters who have trained for many years to reach the standard required in order to fight in public. A bullfight is like a bloody type of stage play with each act requiring to be played out in exact steps.

A fighting bull is a massive,angry and very dangerous beast who will have had very limited contact with humans as it grows to maturity. A bull simply needs to throw it's head in a slightly different way than on it's previous charges, for the matador to be seriously injured. Something that no one can ever legislate for. It is NEVER any foregone conclusion that the matador will be the winner.

In my town there is a Plaza de Toros, I have never attended a bullfight,I only catch fleeting glances when news is shown on TV. This part of Spain is a strong base for bullfighting and the breeding of the animals.

I do not understand why the bulls have to die in the ring here, why not spare them as they do in both Portugal and Mexico for example?

I am a guest in this country and feel I have no right to criticise or campaign for the abolishment of bullfighting, there are many Spaniards who themselves are doing that.

I hope that helps you in your musings.

[chazzyb]

this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/22/wbull22.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/22/ixnews.html)must have been what i was thinking of

Bull fighting goes on in the Catalan area in France too.

[RhythmJunkie]

Using the actions of a paedophile as an analogy on this thread

I can't think why not? I could have said murderer or rapist or burglar. They are all vile and violate our personal lives but to hear their story they all have a point in doing what they do!
If you'll excuse the pun, that was the point I was making with a paedo', "they" have a valid reason in their own head!

I'm not having a go Pedro just debating! :)

A bullfight is like a bloody type of stage play with each act requiring to be played out in exact steps.


But in Macbeth, Macduff only pretends to kill with a sword. Its not real yet millions go to watch bloody Shakespearean plays every week across the world.

Bull fighting goes on in the Catalan area in France too

...and badger baiting still goes on in Derbyshire unabated! Pun not intended! ;)

If it were cruelty to a child 'there would be no opinion or debate'.
Why do we still allow these ridiculous double standards?
In Derbyshire we still have the hunting fraternity dressed like 'fireman sam' on horses which I'm sure have better things to do, riding around the moors terrifying old ramblers and blowing into their kazzoos like they are somehow better than the rest of us for parading around looking like a bunch of complete retards!

I have had many a day in the countryside ruined by these buffoons, the same people who bemoan the riding of trail bikes in the countryside! Double standards strikes again! :rolleyes:

Sorry for the rant but its a sore point in Derbyshire! Home of far too many fireman sams! ;) :)

[G]

I have been to both bull running, bull pool and indeed full fat bull fighting.

Bull running was strange, bulls running through the street, somebody threw ice onto the street and the bulls fell which i felt was unecessary, they also made the bulls drag a bin around at one point.

Bull pool was GREAT entertainment, no bulls were actually hurt and it was in a fighting ring, basically involved random people, including spectators coaxing the bull, the only escape was behind the boards or into the pool....I think the overall aim was to push the bull into the pool, which didnt happen whilst I was there.

Full fat bull fighting was impressive. I have seen to much in life so nothing shocks me to be honest. Each fight (out of about 10 or so) went the same way, The horseman came out and speared the shoulders of the bull to slow them and open the tough backs, the entertainers the came in and stabbed mini spears into the open wounds (these are often the things seen dangling) these guys literally leap frogged the bulls to get the spears in....the finalie was the matador who would then come out and do his thing with the blanket until the bull was 99% exhausted.......he would then bring out his sword and lunge at the bulls on their final charge, sometimes it would take 5+ times for the sword to hit the correct spot.

Whilst I was there 2 matadors were seriously hurt 1)got a pretty severe neck wound 3) One had a MAJOR leg wound to the point it was almost hanging off and it was covered in the news the next day. A horse and horseman was also injured quite bad.

I have no view on whether its right or wrong, some peoples morals may say yes it is, some say no it isnt.....I'm in between but went out of interest and classed it as one of things you have to do once in your life.

[The Basket]

There is a chuffing huge difference between killing an animal and killing or abusing a human being. To even compare is just mind boggling.

A bull is just a creature. It doesn't feel love or joy or happiness. Maybe in Walt Disney films but thats it.

We kill animals on a daily basis and I just had a meat and potato pie! Nice too! Ya know that Greggs in Scotland don't do meat and potato pies! it is a chuffing disgrace.

Blood, guts and gore are part of us, our dark side of the soul. I was told to aim for the central body mass to get good shots in.

Bullfighting is an example of the nasty side of humanity which exists in all of us. But also courage and bravery of the matador. The positive sides.

A bit like war as an art form without nerve gas. A matador has to stand up against something which could tear him a new one within seconds. That is just the bravest thing I ever did see. And I have total admiration for him coz it sure ain't playing football.

Your examples rythymjunkie don't need bravery and courage. Or skill. And that is the point you're missing.

[sarah]

There is a chuffing huge difference between killing an animal and killing or abusing a human being. To even compare is just mind boggling.

A bull is just a creature. It doesn't feel love or joy or happiness. Maybe in Walt Disney films but thats it.

I don't think everyone would agree with that.


We kill animals on a daily basis and I just had a meat and potato pie!

Not all of us do. And I think it's a bit different killing/maiming/torturing an animal for fun and amusement compared with killing an animal for food.

[The Basket]

I don't think everyone would agree with that.



Not all of us do. And I think it's a bit different killing/maiming/torturing an animal for fun and amusement compared with killing an animal for food.

Just my opinion. I am not an animal lover by the way. Not even close. But you probably guessed that already.

[RhythmJunkie]

There is a chuffing huge difference between killing an animal and killing or abusing a human being. To even compare is just mind boggling.

A bull is just a creature. It doesn't feel love or joy or happiness. Maybe in Walt Disney films but thats it.

Are you real? :smt064 :smt003

That is just the bravest thing I ever did see

The bravest thing I have witnessed is child birth. Am I glad I'm a bloke? Oh yes...oh yes...oh yesyesyes! :thumbsup:

[The Basket]

As real as you.

[MeridiaNx]

Yes it takes balls, but it really is a disgusting way to kill an animal. Even if they eat it afterwards, its not humane in any way.

Although I have read a study or two that suggested something along the lines of the bulls not actually feeling any pain as a result of the 'spears' (not sure of their technical name with regards to this use) but that they have a measurably massive adrenaline rush and enter an almost trance like/hyper state. Can't remember all the details but would this make it less inhumane if you could prove the bull does not suffer? No judgement myself mind, just asking.

It's like dog fighting. It doesn't matter how much history is embedded in the tradition, you just have to ask: why do they do it now, and what would the reaction be if it was invented tomorrow, in Chesterfield? It's no different when it comes to the crunch.

Tradition is the word you use to justify something when there's no other justification for it. :)

True but if you use this argument as a basis for anything then you cannot pick and choose what to apply it to based on your own likes/dislikes. Not saying that is what you are doing, but it would be the thin end of the wedge. Alcohol wouldn't be allowed if it was invented tomorrow, all sorts of things you'd never imagine would suddenly suffer. Who's to say in the future they might not laugh at us for once allowing people to drive freely on the roads?

I too have read about the reasons behind the whole spectacle but I'm afraid I just see it the same way as I see fox or deer hunting. Lots of dressing up and showing off and entertainment and socialising but at the end of the day its just another animal getting killed for entertainments sake.

Fair enough, and I suppose if eveyrone thinks like this then there is no place for it. The question is where is the tipping point? Your paedophile reference (though pushing the analogy a bit I think :rolleyes:) makes sense in that everyone abhors it apart from the tiny number of paedophiles. At what point does the bull-fight supporting crowd become small enough to be successfully overruled by the moral beliefs of those against it?

[philipMac]

People who kill animals for pleasure have issues.
People who take pleasure in watching animals being killed have issues.
There is not a huge step in taking pleasure in watching people kill animals to watching people kill other people.

It is all extremely sick, deviant, lowest common denominator behavior. Tradition can kiss my 4ss.
It's traditional in for some people to rape and machete the losers of a battle.

Line up your wives and girlfriends men. Its traditional.

[sarah]

People who kill animals for pleasure have issues.
People who take pleasure in watching animals being killed have issues.
There is not a huge step in taking pleasure in watching people kill animals to watching people kill other people.

It is all extremely sick, deviant, lowest common denominator behavior. Tradition can kiss my 4ss.
It's traditional in for some people to rape and machete the losers of a battle.

Line up your wives and girlfriends men. Its traditional.

:winner:

[Tim in Belgium]

It's the hunter gatherer in us, it hasn't had a chance to evolve out, we still love that thrill of the chase, bloodsports, motorsports, ballsports, different things give a kick in different people. Be careful not to deny who you are and what you enjoy.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

People who kill animals for pleasure have issues.
People who take pleasure in watching animals being killed have issues.
There is not a huge step in taking pleasure in watching people kill animals to watching people kill other people.

It is all extremely sick, deviant, lowest common denominator behavior. Tradition can kiss my 4ss.
It's traditional in for some people to rape and machete the losers of a battle.

Line up your wives and girlfriends men. Its traditional.

My personal opinion is that bullfightings rather unpleasant, but I'm afraid that the above is complete ********.

[philipMac]

http://www.be-a-wahm.com/images/temper-tantrum.jpg

Quiet now Squirrel. The adults are trying to have a conversation. :)


Ah no. Seriously, fair play, your counter argument's wit, mastery of the English language and deft clever glancing blows leave me a shattered and ruined man, allowing me only to face the crushing logical coup de grace of your astonishing conclusion.

As always your input is both as valuable to us all as it is a pleasure to read.

I, in fact I can confidently say "we", keenly await your future thoughts on this and all other matters.

[skint]

My opinion....its sick and pointless!

+1

I read up on it a few years ago to try and work out the point, just as I did regarding fox hunting. I lived in the country for many years and worked on a farm and was very good mates with a gamekeeper. No one managed to convince of the point to any of it.

Tradition, maybe but the Romans used to throws the slaves in the ring etc, just as well we aren't slaves to all traditions.

I don't agree with that bull run thing either.

I'm no goody goody - I don't shed a tear when I hears news of a matador getting a pasting or some cretin being flattened in the run. At least they have a choice. Perhaps I'm just a blood thirsty animal?

[skint]

There is a chuffing huge difference between killing an animal and killing or abusing a human being. To even compare is just mind boggling.

A bull is just a creature. It doesn't feel love or joy or happiness. Maybe in Walt Disney films but thats it.

We kill animals on a daily basis and I just had a meat and potato pie! Nice too! Ya know that Greggs in Scotland don't do meat and potato pies! it is a chuffing disgrace.

Blood, guts and gore are part of us, our dark side of the soul. I was told to aim for the central body mass to get good shots in.

Bullfighting is an example of the nasty side of humanity which exists in all of us. But also courage and bravery of the matador. The positive sides.

A bit like war as an art form without nerve gas. A matador has to stand up against something which could tear him a new one within seconds. That is just the bravest thing I ever did see. And I have total admiration for him coz it sure ain't playing football.

Your examples rythymjunkie don't need bravery and courage. Or skill. And that is the point you're missing.

That's one way of justifying it, but doesn't wash with me. If its banned Spain wants to leave the EU? Interestingly sad.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Quiet now Squirrel. The adults are trying to have a conversation. :)


Ah no. Seriously, fair play, your counter argument's wit, mastery of the English language and deft clever glancing blows leave me a shattered and ruined man, allowing me only to face the crushing logical coup de grace of your astonishing conclusion.

As always your input is both as valuable to us all as it is a pleasure to read.

I, in fact I can confidently say "we", keenly await your future thoughts on this and all other matters.

You've not made a argument for anyone to counter. You've just spouted some rubbish about murder being a short step away from blood sports.

I hope that I'm not the only one who seens the irony of you implying that I'm a child when your post is so utterly purile.

[sarah]

You've just spouted some rubbish about murder being a short step away from blood sports.


have a look at this (http://www.caction.org/victims/community_ed/DomesticViolenceAndAnimalAbuse.pdf) for example

[Flamin_Squirrel]

have a look at this (http://www.caction.org/victims/community_ed/DomesticViolenceAndAnimalAbuse.pdf) for example

Nah, there's a big difference between hunting and sitting your basement laughing manically as you pull the legs off of a cat or something.

[RhythmJunkie]

You've just spouted some rubbish about murder being a short step away from blood sports.

I can see his point! :)

If his point isn't valid then explain how the US army turn a geeky, gentle teenager into a 'killer', who will on the order of his captain shoot, kick, stab, poison, poke with a sharp stick, bomb, gouge and generally slaughter whoever he is told to?
What is the difference between shooting a pig and shooting a human? When we are shot the bullets path and tissue damage is so similar to a pig that they deliberately use pigs for weapons testing, including nuclear!
To stab a pigs flesh is almost identical to stabbing human flesh so your argument that his post is "utter bo**ocks" just doesn't hold up!

It doesn't matter how you wrap it, simple slang or perfect grammar, the message is the same.

I find burglary 'sick', there are alternatives. I also find rape 'sick', again there are alternatives. I see murder as 'sick' including corporal punishment, plenty of alternative punishments exist. I see putting poison in food to make more money for the dreedy 'sick', there are many alternatives.
I also see the modern almost ritualistic torturing and murder of defenseless animals 'sick' in the extreme, because the other horrid things we do, we do to each other!

So whats the difference between raping or torturing or murdering an animal and the same acts against a human? We spout off about how chimp DNA is almost identical to our own then torture them for the sake of drugs & cosmetics!
We cannot be almost identical 'and' utterley different now can we??

I see the same act in the same way no matter what or whom it is acted out upon!

Lets see a glamour model stuffed into a dirty cage then drip plenty of concentrated cosmetic chemicals into her eyes! Why not? Cosmetics don't benefit the animal kingdom at all!

What I'd like to see is the bull whip out a pump action shotgun and wave that around.....see all the feckin bravery & courage disappear then! :)

[RhythmJunkie]

Nah, there's a big difference between hunting and sitting your basement laughing manically as you pull the legs off of a cat or something.

Well, you certainly get more fresh air and exercise when you go hunting?
So pulling the legs off kitty would be a relatively less healthy pastime! :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

If his point isn't valid then explain how the US army turn a geeky, gentle teenager into a 'killer', who will on the order of his captain shoot, kick, stab, poison, poke with a sharp stick, bomb, gouge and generally slaughter whoever he is told to?

I don't know how they do it, but I can tell you they don't do it by sending them hunting. So I don't really see your point.

What is the difference between shooting a pig and shooting a human?

Some would say a lot, some would not very much. But ultimately, the difference is, they're different :)

People have argued that violent films/video games cause people to be violent. So the argument could be made, what's the difference between killing someone on screen and doing it for real? I doubt anyone on here is mad enough to give any credence to that claim, as it's likely everyone here has watched a horror film at some point.

So at this point it's a question of drawing the line somewhere. Therefore it could be argued that hunters are no more deserving of being labeled as potential murderers than a horror film audience.

[sinbad]

There is a chuffing huge difference between killing an animal and killing or abusing a human being. To even compare is just mind boggling.

A bull is just a creature. It doesn't feel love or joy or happiness. Maybe in Walt Disney films but thats it.

We kill animals on a daily basis and I just had a meat and potato pie! Nice too! Ya know that Greggs in Scotland don't do meat and potato pies! it is a chuffing disgrace.

Blood, guts and gore are part of us, our dark side of the soul. I was told to aim for the central body mass to get good shots in.

Bullfighting is an example of the nasty side of humanity which exists in all of us. But also courage and bravery of the matador. The positive sides.

A bit like war as an art form without nerve gas. A matador has to stand up against something which could tear him a new one within seconds. That is just the bravest thing I ever did see. And I have total admiration for him coz it sure ain't playing football.

Your examples rythymjunkie don't need bravery and courage. Or skill. And that is the point you're missing.


If it's a matter of life and death, i.e do I kill an animal to save a human, then yes, there's a difference, but I don't go along with the "lower form of life" reasoning at all. That doesn't give us some mighty privilege to do what we want with them. How would we all feel if a less intelligent alien life form visited and we abused or farmed them? Or if a more intelligent one came along and did the same to us?
----------
Doing something a lot, or for a long time, does not make that thing necessarily right.
------------
It's not at all about bravery and courage. It's not as if the matadors are entering an uncontrolled environment. Sure there are accidents (like with so many jobs sports and pastimes), but to compare it with anything serious and REAL, like war, or an encounter with a big predator in the wild, or the act of putting your life at risk to save another's, is totally crazy. It's about a show, making it as profitable as possible. It's not a battle to the death, or even a fight. They don't just try to kill the bull and end the bull"fight". It's an illusion of bravery and courage.

No doubt you'll say: "Well you get in there then!!". No. Would a matador do it for anything other than money or fame? "To test himself against a beast of the wild, an animal of pure power and of twisted evil and malevolence"? Hah. It's just all ********, and all the poor mugs that enjoy seeing a bit of blood spilt lap it up. Bravery my ****. Money makes the world go round.

[RhythmJunkie]

FS....You say watching violence 24/7 doesn't affect peoples brains???
60 years ago they used propaganda messages and film clips to get the public angry and readied for war. They used the same tactics for Vietnam and Iraq!
Would they bother if it didn''t work?

[RhythmJunkie]

Also its well known to hypnotists, spin-doctors, politicians and advertisers that repetition is the best way to get a message to stay in someones head!

Advertising works and so does brainwashing! :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

FS....You say watching violence 24/7 doesn't affect peoples brains???
60 years ago they used propaganda messages and film clips to get the public angry and readied for war. They used the same tactics for Vietnam and Iraq!
Would they bother if it didn''t work?

Where did I say anything about violence 24/7?

You're saying that exposure to violence makes people violent. I've some sympathy for that argument, but my point is that EVERYONE is exposed to violence from hunting to the occasional video game/movie, or even the news.

It's not practically possible to isolate people from violence completely, so it becomes an issue of where to draw the line. Since where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion (or rather in most cases, whatever artificial sense of morality we happen to be brought up to believe in) peoples views are going to differ - meaning there's no right answer. How anyone has the arrogance to claim how they live their life is moral but someone else's isn't is staggering.

I'm really at a loss as to how so many people can be so sanctimonious, especially about something that has no effect on them. Even this guy http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Ban-motorbikes/ can legitimately claim that the banning of bikes would have a direct result on whether innocent people live or die.

[RhythmJunkie]

Where did I say anything about violence 24/7?

You didn't...I did! I was making a point! Oh this is silly!
If you are just going to pick out tiny snippets of my posts just so you can pick my argument apart then its pointless debating this with you.

Its no good using words like sanctimonious which half the world wide web will have to look up to understand either! Simple English will do!

I prove through observation. I have seen my own children influenced by tv.
20 minutes after watching 3 muskateers they are out on the lawn bashing each other with sticks pretending to swordfight.
Last year a kid in the US got angry with his friend got his dads gun and shot his friend in the head...remember that story?
My daughters head teacher sent a letter home to parents warning them, to stop letting their children watch mutant ninja turtles because the infants were going round the playground kicking the sh*t out of each other and you are trying to tell me it doesn't happen?
Yes it does!
The kids themselves admitted it, they were being ninja turtles!!! 3 children were seen by the school nurse, and sent home, this is serious sh*t and you say its utter bo**ocks!

If tv doesn't influence people then how the hell does advertising work?

Why do you think killing and violence somehow uniquely don't have any effect?

100% of people don't get violent through watching violence because we are all different, if a person has a violent nature then they are far more likely to act out what they see....see above!

Talking of drawing the line of morality.
I don't care who eats meat...I don't care if the supermarket I use sells meat...what I do get infuriated about is the fact that they put freshly cut meat right next to the vegetarian section....now that is just taking the p*ss!

[21QUEST]

Some of the posts on here remind me of those who come up with petitions against countries that eat dogs. Do I fancy eating a dog? Hell No but that doesn't mean others that do, are suddenly evil if they do.

As for all those studies(BTW been shown links of others before) that claim to show a link between X and Y, I tell this....There is a link/point to everything if you look hard/close/far back enough....FACT

I sometimes wonder if the world will be a better place if people cared for their fello beings as much as they do for animals.
Apparently lol, somewhere on this site, there is a thread regards a burglar suspected thrown from the window of a building. Funny thing to me is, it appears some of those who are posting on this thread just feel "well in the wrong place innit?...." and shrug their shoulders and all that......fair dos I guess
It's not for me to say(here) you are right or wrong on wahtever you view is on that, just pointing out like ;)



People fear that which they don't understand

The mind is like a sail. It needs to be open to catch the wind

..and along the lines of waht T in Belgium posted
civilise him as you please, make him whatever colour you want, but man will always WORSHIP the born fighter...................

and finally, a wise woman once said

I will not argue with you. To do that is to agree that your have a valid point:rolleyes: :p ;) ...joke in there somewhere I tell you

Ah yes, almost forgot....I didn't shed no tears for the Bull. Does that make me NOT an animal lover(what ever that is)? Not a chance ;)



Ben

[MiniMatt]

This post is bought to you by the power of Stella. As such, no guarantee can be made as to it's validity or legibility.

A bull fight is essentially a fight to the death where only one of the participants consents. Furthermore, the absolute best the non-consenting participant can hope for is a draw (as the bull's going to get it in the neck regardless), and the odds, while not certain, are firmly stacked against the non-consenting participant.

It's worth noting at this stage that fights to the death between two consenting participants (ie. humans) are illegal. Just about everywhere.

Now, you could argue that cows don't exactly consent to being slaughtered and turned into double cheeseburgers and nifty alpinestar gloves, but this would be a flawed argument. The lack of rights in one regard does not exclude all rights in any regard.

You could also argue that it's better for the bull to go out fighting than to be slaughtered. That would also be a flawed argument; you'd be applying human thinking (and idealistic human thinking at that) to an animal. Furthermore, whilst most people will say they'd prefer to go out fighting, this notion has been glamourised by Hollywood - the heroic death. As soldiers will note, dying in battle is less glamourous than Hollywood makes out. Given the choice between a bullet in the back of the head and a bayonet to the gut, spending an hour watching your innards seep into the sand whilst people scream insults in an unknown language at you, the coward in me would prefer the former.

None of this detracts from the skill and courage matadors undoubtedly display. Despite being a liberal lefty pacifist, skill and courage are qualities I admire greatly, but there are other ways to display those qualities.

Closing argument - can two consenting participants fight to the death? No, that's illegal. Can one consenting participant fight a non-consenting animal to the death. Currently not illegal.

[The Basket]

I wonder if Rythymjunkie wears leathers?:p

Did you know a number of Spanish friends who have visited England consider it to be a more violent place than Spain?

A leftish, liberal, health and safety, touchy feely veggie burger society is more violent than a bull killing, donkey off tower pushing nasty to animals society?

Say it ain't so! But in my own experience it is very very true.

People don't join the military to kill people. They join to get drunk and kill people. Get ya facts right.:p My mate escaped from bad home situation and a bad town finding good opportunities to advance himself in the RAF. That is the positive about the armed forces and you seem to ignore that. He hasn't killed anyone and he has served in Iraq.

If you are going to jump on a bandwagon, ban booze. Booze is the biggest problem we face in society today. Bigger than Cocaine, bigger than heroin bigger than a foriegn country killing bulls and me watching it.

[MiniMatt]

I wonder if Rythymjunkie wears leathers?:p

Did you know a number of Spanish friends who have visited England consider it to be a more violent place than Spain?

A leftish, liberal, health and safety, touchy feely veggie burger society is more violent than a bull killing, donkey off tower pushing nasty to animals society?

Say it ain't so! But in my own experience it is very very true.

People don't join the military to kill people. They join to get drunk and kill people. Get ya facts right.:p My mate escaped from bad home situation and a bad town finding good opportunities to advance himself in the RAF. That is the positive about the armed forces and you seem to ignore that. He hasn't killed anyone and he has served in Iraq.

If you are going to jump on a bandwagon, ban booze. Booze is the biggest problem we face in society today. Bigger than Cocaine, bigger than heroin bigger than a foriegn country killing bulls and me watching it.

Not sure I understand the point of this really, you post a thought on bullfighting and then attack anyone who disagrees with you. Sorry but rightly or wrongly, you're going to find that outside Spain/Portugal/Mexico most people on the planet are going to disagree with you. You are in the minority. You can call them liberal weenies all you like but that doesn't alter the fact that most people will think you're wrong.

[RhythmJunkie]

I wonder if Rythymjunkie wears leathers?:p

Yes boots and jacket!
Its the best protector and the meat eaters make it available for me to utilise!
I also have a leather sofa...see above! :)

Did you know a number of Spanish friends who have visited England consider it to be a more violent place than Spain?
I think its humans in general but this debate is primarily about bulls. ;)

A leftish, liberal, health and safety, touchy feely veggie burger society is more violent than a bull killing, donkey off tower pushing nasty to animals society?
I know dozens of veggies (from all over the UK so its not a regional thing) who are the most gentle, caring people but not necessarily animal right nutter extremists! In fact I don't know of a single activist, they must be rare! :)

Say it ain't so! But in my own experience it is very very true.

People don't join the military to kill people.
They join to get drunk and kill people. Get ya facts right.:p My mate escaped from bad home situation and a bad town finding good opportunities to advance himself in the RAF. That is the positive about the armed forces and you seem to ignore that. He hasn't killed anyone and he has served in Iraq.
My point was about the US Marines! :)

If you are going to jump on a bandwagon, ban booze. Booze is the biggest problem we face in society today. Bigger than Cocaine, bigger than heroin bigger than a foriegn country killing bulls and me watching it.
I completely agree with that dude..except the bull ;)! :)

[RhythmJunkie]

Not sure I understand the point of this really, you post a thought on bullfighting and then attack anyone who disagrees with you. debate their argument... if they simply have a go I will have a go back...there is rational debate and there is ridiculing someones point of view...if I am ridiculed I will retaliate!Sorry but rightly or wrongly, you're going to find that outside Spain/Portugal/Mexico most people on the planet are going to disagree with you. You are in the minority. You can call them liberal weenies all you like but that doesn't alter the fact that most people will think you're wrong.

Liberalism can be taken too far..."we cannot make everything in life a grey area!" Although anarchy comes pretty close! ;)

If you feel you need to eat meat then eat it but don't publicly/or privately torture and abuse the animal before slaughter...thats just sick! Thats my belief and I'm sticking to it! ;) Its not a matter of being wrong because I know I'm not wrong...torturing an animal is wrong, ethically, morally and legally!
Its ok for a Matador to torture a bull but not ok to pull the legs off kitty in a basement....whats the freekin difference someone please explain to me!

As someone said above in another post "just because everyone votes yes doesn't make it right" or words to that effect! ;)

:Public announcement:
RJ is still open to debate but please don't feel offended if he disagrees with you! ok? :flower: :smt003

[The Basket]

I'm not easily offended RJ...I wouldn't last 5 seconds otherwise.

I am a Big fan of Queen and Freddie Mercury since forever. Got all their albums and would have loved to watch them live. It don't mean that i'm homosexual and snort cocaine though. Just can appreciate what they do.

My girlfriends sister is a big animal fan and I can wind her up all day with this. I don't agree that animal life or welfare is equal to Human life or welfare but she does. Her point of view is valid and her right in a free country but I don't agree with it.

By the way...I live in a very rural area with plenty of cattle. I don't spend my afternoons sticking swords into them. It really angers the farmers and shotguns make a terrible mess.

[RhythmJunkie]

I live in a very rural area

Very rural? :) Thats a great expression but what does it mean exactly? Ahhh Cupar...yes that would be very rural! :smt003

Talking of homosexuals did you know George Takei (Sulu) from the old Star Trek came out a while ago? Surprised us...we had no idea. :)

[The Basket]

Cupar is home to a Suzuki dealership so there is a veneer of civilization.

The some of the cows are highland and have a furry coat and chuffing huge horns. Not want to argue with them.

Yes the colour of Scotland is Green and plenty of hills and fields. Due to the fact it rains so much.