'Urban' speed limits from 30>20MPH?

[ASM-Forever]

After a bit of indecision whether this was a bikes- talk and issues, or idle banter topic, i decided to post it here. Mods feel free to relocate if i have smegged up.

I caught a brief clip on the news this afternoon of a campaign to change 'urban'(hell that coud be anywhere) speed limits from 30MPH to 20MPH. As i understand it a child had been hit by a car.

Whilst thats very sad...surely its a knee-jerk reaction and deserves no consideration?

Surely crashes at those speeds are caused by a lack of attention/focus on the drivers part, or indeed the kids running indescriminately across the road?

N.B. I agree that a few places warrant a 20MPH....but not many.

[timwilky]

There is a campaign to change all roads near where I live to 20mph. when asked to sign a petition I told them they would be better off teaching kids not to run into the road and how to cross safely etc. and got a mouthful of abuse from the do good mumsies for my advice on how to prevent children from being injured.

[sinbad]

Lots of places warrant a 20 limit, just so the prats that usually do 40 will actually do closer to 30. I'm talking about near schools, past parks, along roads with cars parked on each side etc etc.
Blanket speed limits show little genuine thought about road safety and tend to just encourage a sense of disrespect for them amongst road users. 30 limits on roads which should be 40 or even 60 just have a negative effect on the way road users look at the validity of all speed limits.

[Biker Biggles]

That's right,and even those roads that do warrant 20 limits don't warrant them at all times.While I fully support a 20 limit past a school at say 0800 on Monday during term time,the same road could well warrant a 40 limit on a Sunday.
And teaching road sense like it was drummed into us as kids is absolutely right.

[Mogs]

I think a 20mph limit outside the places already listed is a good idea, perhaps variable times depending upon the place. Teaching kids to cross the road is the responsiblity of parents, and should not be palmed on to teachers, if it were there would be too much H&S involved, it would not feel dangerous and the lesson will not sink in. Getting it to sink in is not easy. We taught our kids, and though it was ingrained, if you asked them they would give you the full monty. Still one of ours ran in front of a car (no impact), she was concentrating on her friend. This resulted in a good old fashioned smack there and then, lesson learned. Reduction to 20 won't reduce the number of colisions with kids that run out into the road, but it will make the injuries less severe.

[Jelster]

Have to agree with limits outside schools, playground and parks. Hell I'd even welcome cameras at theses points.

But as Time said, somebody ought to teach the blighter's to cross the road safely. When was the last time you saw an advert on the TV about crossing the road ?? No, it's always the motorist as they can be pursued.

What about the stupid b**ch who crossed without looking and took me off of my SV ? Exactly, I had to pay for the repairs.....

Pedestrians have responsibilities too !

[Mogs]

My kids had the teaching session in school, with "Mrs Tufty". Mainly theory and the only practical was in the school yard on the painted road. No real danger and I don't think little kids can relate the differing situations.

[stevehaskew]

It's like that ad I keep seeing in the cinema. They're campaigning for safer roads in London and the advert shows a child walk out into the road without looking and get hit by a car. Every time I see it, it makes me think "So we need to teach kids to cross the road, that poor car driver had no chance!"

[Keith1983]

Surely if there is to be some kind of review into how appropriate speed limita re surely they need to be looking further than just ubran areas and start looking at the possibility of increasing speed limits on motorways and other roads?

[Ceri JC]

My pov:

Any 20 limit outside a school is good, provided it is temporary and controlled by the teachers within the school and only used when kids are arriving or leaving. Busting someone for doing 30 through there on a sunday afternoon just isn't on. 20 limits outside parks/playgrounds are a bit less clear cut. I can think of at least 3 sections of road bordering parks in my town where visibility is superb and provided there are no cars there (which there rarely are) you could safely do 40 along them, so the existing 30 limit is fine. Naturally, this isn't the case with all parks and I can think of some where a 20 limit might be handy, for a short section of road (IE not extending it 1 mile either side of the playground). So long as the people applying them had a bit of nous, it'd be fine.

An awful lot of existing 30 limits are inappropriate (many should be 40, some should even be NSL) and widely ignored by motorists, so dropping them all to 20 would just further the contempt/disregard people have for them.

Educating children with regard to road safety is vastly cheaper, more just and more effective than trying to get drivers to shoulder responsibility for a kid running into their path (as someone who has hit a kid who ran out, I feel very strongly on this issue).

[Alpinestarhero]

I dont mind 20 pmh limits on narrow roads and around schools, places like that - to me, a 20 mph limit indicates that the zone is quite busy and / or dangerous. I tend to ride with alot of caution through these areas

But not everywhere...my road is a 30 mph limit, and kids all play in the street. Its quite safe, as long as the kids exersice caution.

Which all children should be taught, and that caution imposed on them often by their parents. Ok, so a pedestrian can step out onto a road, get hit by a car...but that pedestrian has a duty to look before they step out. I've lost count of how many suicide pedestrians I'cve jumped on teh brakes for! (most are middle aged people on mobile phones)

Matt

[Grinch]

Surely if there is to be some kind of review into how appropriate speed limita re surely they need to be looking further than just ubran areas and start looking at the possibility of increasing speed limits on motorways and other roads?

All speed limit changes require a review and notification for a period before they can be changed, if these actions are not follow then its as though the change never occurred.

[Mogs]

http://forums.sv650.org/image.php?u=99&dateline=1187351562

Is that you Grinch teaching "don't play on the railway"

[Grinch]

I'm saying, see that train... we don't want to be here...

[SVeeedy Gonzales]

Sod it - most of us will keep doing as we do now, maintaining the speed that experience tells us is safe and appropriate at the time, whether that's faster or slower than the posted limit.

[philbut]

I think a blanket 20mph speed limit would infact be counter productive in terms of slowing people in the really important areas where they are actually needed. We all speed occasionally in a 30 zone, as there are so many we don't really think anything of it. But when i see a 20 sign, i think "ay up, there is obviously a reason for that, best slow down". If everywhere were 20mph, we'd loose that distinction.

Also agree fully that if a kid steps out into a road, its not the car driver who is to blame, its the parents who let an untrained kid loose on it's own. Kids are smaller than many roadside objects (so hidden) and have no real perception of danger. Hit one at 10mph and they'll still probably end up dead - just don't allow anywhere near a road in the first place unsupervised!

[AndyW]

Personally, I think all speed limits should be scrapped, and if there is an accident, then the speed of whoever (all both parties) should be examined and if inappropriate for conditions (near school, raining, snow, empty road) hit them with a real penalty (ban/lose license permanently/ 10% value of vehicle fine).

[the_runt69]

Here in the Socialist republic of Lewisham nearly all side roads have speed humps in them so cars cant speed without taking their exhausts off. There has been no consultation they just turn up and lay the things.

[Cloggsy]

Personally, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if inner-city speed limits were reduced to 20 mph, as long as Motorway speed limits were increased to 100 mph.

In either case I believe that anyone caught doing speeds above 20 on an inner-city road and anyone caught doing a ton plus on motorways should receive harsh punishments - Am I being a tad controversial :?:

[stuartyboy]

Teaching kids to cross the road is the responsiblity of parents, and should not be palmed on to teachers, if it were there would be too much H&S involved

Eh? So what happens if a teacher has to take a class accross the road to the playing fields? Phone up all the kids parents to see if they've been trained :rolleyes: Some parents don't know how to cross the road properly.

Road saftey has always been part of primary education since time began. It's the responsibility of teachers and parents. As for too much H&S - thats ********. Teachers/schools etc go through the most rigorous H&S checks for just about anything you can think of in terms of child safety.

EDIT: In Scotland it's a joint effort between the Police, the Education departments and the schools. I know this for a fact because I spent 3 years working on an educational multimedia project with Tayside Police and the Tayside Council.

Here's a question for everyone. What's the purpose of the black bar in the lolipop man's sign?

[AndyW]

Road saftey has always been part of primary education since time began. It's the responsibility of teachers and parents. As for too much H&S - thats ********. Teachers/schools etc go through the most rigorous H&S checks for just about anything you can think of in terms of child safety.

Are we back to issuing all the kids with safety goggles and gauntlets so they can play conkers again?
Teachers are not there to raise other peoples kids, they are there to teach academic subjects, especially seeing as how most kids leaving schools nowadays seem not to be able to read, write or do maths very well. As an ex college lecturer in IT I was appalled to find the AVCE students I got couldn't work out a percentage.
I have no objections to teaching kids how to cross the road, but to fit that into the timetable, what are you going to get rid of? It seems we need to lose 3 subjects at least to be able to get kids who can do the 3 R's

[Moffatt666]

My attitude when it comes to pedestrians stepping in front of me as I turn into another road is "I am leaned over. If I have to grab that brake I will hit the black stuff. You will go down with me."

[iprideaux]

Here's a question for everyone. What's the purpose of the black bar in the lolipop man's sign?
So that the lolipop man can write an errant car's reg number on it with a piece of chalk.

[iprideaux]

Eh? So what happens if a teacher has to take a class accross the road to the playing fields?
How about "The teacher takes the school lolipop, and perhaps a fluro jacket, makes the children wait on the pavement, stops the traffic, then calls the children across the road".

Road saftey has always been part of primary education since time began. It's the responsibility of teachers and parents. As for too much H&S - thats ********. Teachers/schools etc go through the most rigorous H&S checks for just about anything you can think of in terms of child safety.

I recall the time that I saw a group of primary children doing their pushbike training, at a road junction, outside a chippy, at lunch time. If the teachers are that stupid, how come they passed their H&S checks. With teaching like that, it's no wonder the children don't learn anything.

[sinbad]

My attitude when it comes to pedestrians stepping in front of me as I turn into another road is "I am leaned over. If I have to grab that brake I will hit the black stuff. You will go down with me."

Are you trying to justify hitting someone because you were going too fast to be able to stop safely? If there are pedestrians at or approaching a junction you are turning in to, you should slow down enough to be able to stop if they step out. It's that simple, they're people.

[Hockeynut]

Are you trying to justify hitting someone because you were going too fast to be able to stop safely? If there are pedestrians at or approaching a junction you are turning in to, you should slow down enough to be able to stop if they step out. It's that simple, they're people.

I thought I vaguely remembered from the highway code that pedestrians had right of way if already crossign a sideroad which you want to turn into? Or have I got that totally wrong?

[sinbad]

I thought I vaguely remembered from the highway code that pedestrians had right of way if already crossign a sideroad which you want to turn into? Or have I got that totally wrong?

You're right, which is why (I think) you should be extra careful if there are people near to the junction which you want to turn at.