Wi-fi stealing?

[Pedro68]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6958429.stm

Saw this the other day, and just wondered what peoples POV on this were?

Personally, I have a secured wireless network at home. However I have also accessed other peoples wireless networks (just for brief periods of time, and certainly not for downloading).

Being the conscientious citizen that I am though, I would like to "warn" these people about the lack of security on their networks ... so, questions:

1. Does anyone know any way of informing these people on their own network?
2. Is "piggy-backing" on somebody else's wireless network morally right or wrong?

Thanks,
Pete

[Keith1983]

I have a secure network, in theory it would be nice if all the honest people in the world could share networks. Like everything else it is the minority of thieving scum who mean we need security. Even if your intentions are completely honourable I don't think you should use other peoples networks. Is there a legal point of view on this?

[Luckypants]

2. Is "piggy-backing" on somebody else's wireless network morally right or wrong?Depends if you consider stealing wrong. That person may well be paying for downloading data, so you are stealing from them. Computer hacking / misuse legislation could be employed for 'stealing' the use of the processing power of the wireless device. Then there is the old 'stealing' electricity to send your electros down the wires.

Of course its wrong. But no doubt there will now be a big debate about 'if they don't secure it, they are asking for it' etc etc, as has happened before on here.

So I'm getting in first. Nicking anything from someone is wrong. End of.

[Keith1983]

I couldn't agree more Luckypants, after all the view of people "asking for it" is ridiculous. I think in this day and age it would be naive not to take security measures however if I was to leave my bik eunlocked somewhere does that mean it is right for someone to steal it? No exactly. It's funny how sooner or later every thread comes back to our bikes!

[Pedro68]

Keith,

Apparently it is illegal ...

"Dishonestly obtaining free internet access is an offence under the Communications Act 2003 and a potential breach of the Computer Misuse Act."

I agree with you to the extent that I wish we lived in a world where we could all open our networks and have everyone be able to use anyone/everyone elses networks ... the world would truly be a more globally connected place, but as you say, there's a minority who will always abuse that privilege and so we have to secure our networks.

As for using other peoples networks, I would rather tell them that their network is unsecure (thereby delivering me from temptation ;-) LOL).

Pete

[Pedro68]

however if I was to leave my bike unlocked somewhere does that mean it is right for someone to steal it? No exactly.
Keith, bad analogy IMHO ... that's like saying that the wireless thief has actually physically removed the broadband connection and the initial owner of it will never get it back.

Perhaps a better analogy would be ... if you left your bike unlocked and someone took it for a short spin, but delivered back to the place where you left it. The only thing you would be missing is a few litres of fuel. If you came back to your bike and found it where you left it, you'd probably be none-the-wiser. I agree with you though - still doesn't make it right though ;-)

[Keith1983]

Yeah I think you're right a bad analogy. I just had to mention bikes somewhere! lol

[Grinch]

Plus some people has limits on the amount they can download each month, so if you came along and downloaded some movies you could screw them for the month.

[Alpinestarhero]

I didnt used to havea secured wireless network, but i do now at home after i got the BT home hub thingy. I wouldnt know how to make it secure - i did try with my router, but i ballsed it up and had to reset it

Matt

[Pedro68]

Well all I do to secure a wireless network is:

1. Set an Administrator password on the router.
2. Disable broadcast of the SSID (network name).
3. Set a network password (usually using WPA).

You can also disable remote administration, and can use MAC address filtering so that only the PC's you decide can have access. The MAC address is unique to the network adapter. So all you have to do is log each of your PC's onto the network then go into the admin panel of the router and see which MAC addresses are listed, and then set an "allow list" to only include those.

Pete

[Ceri JC]

Legally, if you know your access to other people's networks is wrong, you're breaking the Computer Misuse Act. Actual chances of prosecution, or even being asked to stop by the neighbour concerned? Extremely slim to b-all. Be aware that (it's extremely unlikely the one you will be connecting to is one, but it is a possibility) it's possible the "open network" isn't some little old dear who can't configure her router and that it's actually someone who is leaving it open intentionally, then stealing any passwords, card details etc. that you pass through their network.

As I say, highly unlikely, but it's enough of a risk (I study Information Security/Computer Crime, so lean towards paranoia) that I'd only use it for searching the web for info, or in an emergency, checking my email (and I'd change the password ASAP once I was back on a secure network).

Morally, it's unlikely you will cause them to go over their download limit/incur any charges, unless you do it regularly (IE you always connect to your neighbours' rather than having your own connection) and indeed, people with wide open routers are unlikely to be the sort to be thrashing their connection with P2P software 24 hours a day. Theoretically, you're going to slow their connection a bit, but it depends what you're doing as to whether or not this would even be perceptible- if you're DLing a DVD from BitTorrent, sure, it'll slow things down. If you're checking the train times, probably not.

[Pedro68]

My only useage of another persons WLAN has been for quick searches on the internet. I'm with you on this one Ceri ... I believe that many of the open networks I have found are probably installed by the inexperienced, but there's always that chance that you could end up in some honey pot (trap) which could steal your c/c details, and/or passwords.

[Grinch]

Mines secured with WPA-PSK and MAC address filtering, its easy.

[Luckypants]

Legally, if you know your access to other people's networks is wrong, you're breaking the Computer Misuse Act.

Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law. Also, everyone should know using something that does not belong to them is wrong.

[Pedro68]

Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law. Also, everyone should know using something that does not belong to them is wrong.
Everyone knows it's wrong to break the speed limit, but we all* do it from time to time ;)

* I realise that is a generally sweeping statement, so I apologise to those of you who don't speed at all ;-)

[wyrdness]

There are an increasing number of free public-access wifi points around. I also know that there are people who deliberately keep their wi-fi open so that other people can use it. Now how do you know whether you're connecting to one that's deliberately open and free to use, or one that's accidentally left open.

If a wireless router is unsecured, then it advertises itself as open. So if you're router is sending out signals saying, "I'm an open access point" then is it 'stealing' if someone uses it? If someones computer says to the access point 'may I connect to you?' and the access point says, 'yes, I'm open', then is that implicitly giving permission?

I think that the law is wrong here. If you're transmitting a signal outside of your home saying that your wifi connection is open, then anyone should be able to connect to it.

Since free public wifi access points exist, would a valid defence be "Sorry, I thought that I'd connected to a free public access point, since it was advertising itself as such"?

[Pedro68]

If a wireless router is unsecured, then it advertises itself as open.
Hmmm, I would have said that it advertises itself as 'being there' ... not as being open, regardless of the fact that it is open, which may or may not have been the intention of the person who installed/configured it.

The law is there to protect those that don't know any better (how to secure a wireless network).

Which brings me to another point ... The Tech Guys at PC World should turn up at your home wearing a bloody mask and holding a gun! They charge £70 to do a "wireless internet installation" :smt075 That's a TOTAL RIP-OFF if you ask me!

[Keith1983]

£70!!!!!! That's shocking, I would like to offer my services to setup and configure wireless networks, I will charge £69! lol.

[Pedro68]

£70!!!!!! That's shocking, I would like to offer my services to setup and configure wireless networks, I will charge £69! lol.
I'll do it for £65 + cuppa tea ;-) :P

[Keith1983]

OOOOOh! Pedro you're ruthless!

[Grinch]

I do it for 15 quid a hour... no questions asked... :-)

15 hours later... lol

[Pedro68]

Here is what the Tech Guys will do for that "wireless internet connection" ...

In Home Installation
Mon-Fri 9am-7pm, Sat-Sun 9am-4pm
Wireless internet installation
Setup existing internet connection
Setup wireless security
Router configuration
Installation of wireless dongle
28 days telephone support
Full testing of connections
Windows XP and Vista systems

Ooh, ooh, they missed one ...
- We'll even remove the router from its sturdy encasement*

* cardboard box - which the customer must either recycle or dispose of.

It's a bleedin' joke!
Setup wireless security AND configure the router?!
Ok there's a very small difference here (I guess), but c'mon Tech Guys :rolleyes:
Also, I bet the 28 days telephone support is charged at 50p/min!
Full testing of connections?!? Anything less and it wouldn't really be a successful installation that they could charge for (surely?!).

Setup existing internet connection? Well if it's broadband, and you start without an existing connection, do you think you would be within your consumer rights to keep the Tech Guy hostage until your ISP and BT have taken a week or two to set your broadband connection up? No, I didn't think so, so exactly WHAT are they setting up with the existing internet connection?!?

:rant:

I'll just jump down now and let someone else have a go :oops:

[Keith1983]

So it's no questions asked hey Grinch, so your customers aren't allowed to ask "Why doesn't it work?" ha ha.

[Stu]

I provide free wifi.
www.fon.com

[Ceri JC]

Ignorance of the law is no defence, in law. Also, everyone should know using something that does not belong to them is wrong.

No it's not and that's not what is being said in my my post.

There's is a marked difference between being ignorant of the law (that is being ignorant of the statute itself) and not knowing that your access is unauthorised. Before now, I have been on systems without 'authorisation', but the non-existant 'security' was so pitiful, that I just thought it was a genuinely fiddly set up that it was a convoluted way of connecting- I really didn't realise I wasn't supposed to be on there. As I had a legitimate log on to the system, this belief was wholely reasonable (as it happened, I was connecting to a seperate bit of the network that I shouldn't have been). To protect people from being prosecuted for this sort of genuine accidental access (which is akin to crossing unmarked boundry lines on a field into private property without realising it), the law makes very clear stipulations:


(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.

In short, you have to know the access is unauthorised to be guilty under secction one of the Computer Misuse Act 1990.

I've got about 15 computer law books on the desk next to me as I type and a distinction at Msc Level in Computing Law. ;)

[Pedro68]

Just let me throw another fish in tank ...

Ethical hacking. Discuss ;-)

[Grinch]

Just let me throw another fish in tank ...

Ethical hacking. Discuss ;-)

Nah...

[Pedro68]

yeah ya probably right Grinch ... better things to do on a sunny Friday afternoon ;-)

[Grinch]

yeah ya probably right Grinch ... better things to do on a sunny Friday afternoon ;-)

Not for me no... but then I have work to do.