Interesting Opinion

[thegibdog]

I had a quite interesting commute home this evening. I was travelling down the M66 on the inside lane when a guy on a z750 starts tailgating me. As he's getting a bit close I touch the brakes (not enough to slow down) to tell him to back off a bit, then change into the middle lane. He goes in front of me and slows down to about 30-40mph, by this time the motorway has changed to two lanes and we have a line of traffic undertaking us so I can't go anywehere.

Realising this he lets me overtake and tailgates me until I leave the motorway where I stop to see what his problem is. Apparently he was of the opinion that I tried to kill him. I explain that I touched my brakes to show him he was too close, adding that I didn't even slow down and that if he thinks I tried to kill him then he obviously was too close. This is ignoring the fact that he put both our lives in danger by tailgating me and then with his antics in the outside lane of the motorway.

Was I in anyway in the wrong here or is this guy just a nob?

[Manguish]

Nob.........

[tigersaw]

complete nob, his actions were brainless

[Alpinestarhero]

Nob faced nobster

Matt

[Biker Biggles]

Nob.With Knobs on it.

[Stingo]

Nob-a-rooney...

[Bluepete]

Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenis!

[Ratty46]

****....

even when me and a group of mates ride together, we keep our distance and never sit inline behind each other alwasy to one side plus we stay out of each others blindspots..

common sense....some people are born without it[-X

[seedy100]

Stop insulting knobs!

[Stig]

Yup, same as all the rest have said.








nob faced nobster.

[lukemillar]

That was me! You almost killed me..... :wink:

[Stumorrison]

Dont forget the z750 weighs 1 million tonnes, (approx) so would have taken him a long time to stop

[phil24_7]

Nobby nibbington!

[Mogs]

Yep a nob. I think I would have done the same, but in the light of this perhaps I will now move well over to the left of my lane an wave the nob on. Better to have the idiot in front where I can see him.

[Keith1983]

May I suggest that he may well indeed be a nob!

[skint]

Kwakers!

[Tiger 55]

nob-o-rama

[Warthog]

Pete Doherty

[Ceri JC]

If he were a biscuit, he'd be a Hob Nob.

People flashing/beeping you for slowing when they are tailgating you (never mind dangerously chasing you for miles afterwards) are one of my pet hates on the road. My favourite was when a royal mail van (who had been driving too close for ages) went mad at me for emergency stopping when a cyclist rode out in front of me and he missed rear-ending me by literall inches. What should I have done, ran the cyclist down?! :)

[Blue_SV650S]

I think the people that 'brake test' (hit the brake light or slow, either-or) to try and make people drop back are the idiots. It is dangerous as the tailgater might overreact and cause an accident that just didn't exist. You are certainly only going to enrage them … which again is a dangerous thing (as you found out, his actions after that were much worse than the initial tailgate). It is not like it was ever going to work either!!!

I think it is possibly one of the stupidest and pointless things a person can do …

If someone is tailgating you, then indeed they are being dangerous/stupid, no question, but flashing your stop lamp is going to do nothing other than exacerbate the situation …

If someone is tailgating, they are obviously an idiot … best thing to do, get out of their way, call them a knobber in ya lid and let them overtake ... they will soon clear off … situation defused … danger -> minimal … stress -> minimal.

[MiniMatt]

I think the people that 'brake test' (hit the brake light or slow, either-or) to try and make people drop back are the idiots.

Bit harsh there but I see your point, obviously the mature and sensible way of dealing with it you highlight is the best approach but mature and sensible is soooo hard :D I would contest though that sometimes a light "brake test" can work - I'll admit it's happened to me in the cage before, on a long boring journey you enter a trance like state just focussed on following the car in front and before you know it are far too close, the light "brake test" then woke me up enough to realize it was me being the nob faced nobster and pulled back and started paying attention.

[DanAbnormal]

I would have hand signalled him to move back or just moved over. But yes, he was a nob mate so don't worry. I don't see much wrong with dabbing the brakes tbh. If you actually needed to brake anyway how is it any different!?

I hate it when people sit too close to me, we all need space on the road.:smt045

[Stu]

Yes he's a nob, but yes Blue is right, the way you should deal with tailgaters is to slow down ( & keep slowing down to 5mph if required) until they pass you.

Personally, I never get anyone to keep up with me :oops:

[Luckypants]

Personally, I never get anyone to keep up with me :oops: If anyone was tailgating you Stu, thier ears would bleed after 30 seconds!

[thegibdog]

Yeah, i've spent quite a bit of time thinking about what I could've done differently last night. (which makes me more annoyed as his actions resulted in me losing sleep!)

Firstly, I suppose it isn’t the best idea to “get in the way” (his explanation as to why he was tailgating me) of nutters on the motorway. I do get out of the way of people going faster than me but tend to wait that bit longer to do it if they are tailgating me. Perhaps this isn't best practice.

Secondly, if he was both an utterly incompetent rider and a nutter he could have panicked and grabbed too much brake. I'm still incredulous at his comment of me trying to kill him, clearly if I wanted to I could've slammed on, but again maybe dabbing the brakes isn't best practice.

Thirdly, I think I should’ve reported him. What if had been a young girl or a pensioner he’d been intimidating and putting in danger? I’d like to think he’ll have thought about his actions and realised what a nob he was, but he could easily do it again to other people.

[2mths]

Blue SV650S - I take your comments and I'm not disagreeing with them per se. I would like to make a couple of comments though.

To me a 'brake test' is when you actually hit the brakes and slow the car down. Just flashing your brake light is not brake testing someone.
Actually brake testing someone is everything you've said it is.

I don't agree that flashing your brake lights in this situation necessarily makes you an idiot etc. (Along the lines of what MiniMatt said...) if someone just plain hasn't seen you then what else are you to do?

Also what is the difference between flashing your brake lights deliberately when someone is too close behind you and doing it out of necessity? (I'm moving away from the specificts of the SV or even bikes here and maybe your comments were confined to that situation, but that wasn't how I read them) If you're in commuting traffic it's quite possible to have a car too close behind you and you might well be too close to the car in front. The traffic slows a fraction, you need to slow down. Just engine braking would be as dangerous if it wasn't spotted. Not all cars offer sufficient engine breaking a lot of modern auto's especially aim to provide very little engine braking in an attempt to get the best possible mpg figures. In this situation you're quite likely to touch the brake pedal. What does that make you?

[Blue_SV650S]

..

Just get out of their way as soon as it is safe to do so, if you are obviously purposely holding them up, then that will enrage them … let them be on their way and kill themselves/someone else one day. Not good, but that has to be better than them killing you there and then right?!?! ;)

[markmoto]

Must admit if someone is tailgating me i will usualy let them past! it aint worth the hassle let them go and tailgate a car as they will sooner or later end up in the back of it! i understand why you did what you did though ive done it before and i dont see a problem with it aslong as your not actualy braking just flashin the lights! sometimes it the only way to get a car to back off your ass.

[Blue_SV650S]

…

Because breaking (or brake flashing) when there was nothing to require flashing for (i.e. hazzard) is at least pointless, at most dangerous … just coz a person is tailgating, it doesn’t mean they are not aware of their surroundings!! ;) Therefore just flashing a light at them for no reason (i.e. there is no physical reason to slow – and they are aware of that) will only enrage them, no worse than that, INSULT them as they can see there was no reason and you are telling them you think they are driving badly (no one likes to be told that ;))!! Road-rage begins! There are perhaps a few cases like MiniMatt where it was required and effective, but I bet you these cases are far outnumbered ;)

At the end of the day, think about it, tailgating is only dangerous if there is a reason for an emergency stop …what is the harm in all going along at 100mph 2” away from each other unless someone does something unexpected or there is reason to suddenly stop? The actual act of tailgating is not dangerous at all … it is actually energy and space efficient ;)

Fact is I don’t like having people on my ar5e, so if they are, I pull out of the way.

[markmoto]

Because breaking (or brake flashing) when there was nothing to require flashing for (i.e. hazzard) is at least pointless, at most dangerous … just coz a person is tailgating, it doesn’t mean they are not aware of their surroundings!! ;) Therefore just flashing a light at them for no reason (i.e. there is no physical reason to slow – and they are aware of that) will only enrage them, no worse than that, INSULT them as they can see there was no reason and you are telling them you think they are driving badly (no one likes to be told that ;))!! Road-rage begins! There are perhaps a few cases like MiniMatt where it was required and effective, but I bet you these cases are far outnumbered ;)

At the end of the day, think about it, tailgating is only dangerous if there is a reason for an emergency stop …what is the harm in all going along at 100mph 2” away from each other unless someone does something unexpected or there is reason to suddenly stop? The actual act of tailgating is not dangerous at all … it is actually energy and space efficient ;)

Fact is I don’t like having people on my ar5e, so if they are, I pull out of the way.

we will have to agree to disagree i think tailgating is pointless and very dangerous on the road as unexpected hazards can appear and if the person behind is to close then! only one thing is going to happen.:rolleyes:

[Blue_SV650S]

we will have to agree to disagree i think tailgating is pointless and very dangerous on the road as unexpected hazards can appear and if the person behind is to close then! only one thing is going to happen.:rolleyes:

I am not condoning tailgating, just pointing out that it is only if things go ‘wrong’ and especially if the ‘gater isn’t paying attention is it actually ‘dangerous’ … there is no harm at all in being close to another vehicle … lets face F1 cars don’t exactly abide by the 2 second rule and not many of them ‘shunt’ the person in front and they are changing speed al the time!!!!! ;)

What is the difference between a pair of F1 cars 5” apart approaching a corner and braking appropriately and a small child running out and 2 raod drivers acting accordingly??? … (all other things being equal).

To reiterate, I am not condoning tailgating, but its not tailgating itself that is dangerous ...

[markmoto]

I am not condoning tailgating, just pointing out that it is only if things go ‘wrong’ and especially if the ‘gater isn’t paying attention is it actually ‘dangerous’ … there is no harm at all in being close to another vehicle … lets face F1 cars don’t exactly abide by the 2 second rule and not many of them ‘shunt’ the person in front and they are changing speed al the time!!!!! ;)

What is the difference between a pair of F1 cars 5” apart approaching a corner and braking appropriately and a small child running out and 2 raod drivers acting accordingly??? … (all other things being equal).

To reiterate, I am not condoning tailgating, but its not tailgating itself that is dangerous ...

Seriously how can you possibly compare F1 drivers to the majority of numpties who drive cages around our streets, on a track things are very different i,e everyone knows where the corners are and when people are going to be braking etc, F1 drivers and racing drivers as a whole have a much better ability and concentration level than job blogs.
I was behind a lady i car the other day and she was right up the **** of a bike in front if the guy had applied the brakes alittle swiftly for whatever reason she would have squshed him like a bug! how can this be safe? after a mile or so he showed her his lights and she got the message and backed off. job done sometimes the cage drivers just need to be woken up sometimes.

[MiniMatt]

Reaction times. I saw a study on tennis players a while back, was really interesting. Keen amateur tennis player could tell if a serve was headed for his back hand or forehand just as the ball was crossing the net. Meanwhile a professional tennis player could tell this just before the ball hit the raquet - the professional didn't have any faster reaction times (tested seperately and found to be near identical), he just better read the clues of behaviour. The same is going to be for F1 drivers

I see where you're going Blue, true tailgating is not dangerous until something unexpected happens. Trouble is exactly that, the unexpected does happen, and it happens far more than we expect, someone will always need to slow down for something and some tailgate distances just don't allow for reaction time - F1 drivers can do it because they know exactly when the car in front is going to brake because they've read all the signs before they've even pushed the pedal (plus a track is more predictable) - us mere mortals have very little clue what the car in front is likely to do and we need to maintain a safe distance to cover every eventuality.

I see your argument and I know you're not condoning tailgating but I just don't think it's a terribly sound argument :D Until computers drive our cars for us, then radar guided cruise control can happily keep everyone at 2" distance all day long (as Mercedes have already demonstrated).

[Mogs]

I think Blue is correct, I've seen film of develoments being made to allow cars to tailgate at about 3ft. Lots of technology going in to ensure that when the one in front slows all the following slow down too. But in the real world it's a pipe dream.

I think we can all agree that speeding up isn't the answer, your bound to end up going 100 mph with nobby still there.

[Blue_SV650S]

I did say “all other things being equal” ;) fact is all other things are not equal on the road!!! therefore why tailgating is bad and if I get a tailgater I shake them off ASAP as I don’t want to run the risk of them to shunting me if something happens!!!

The ‘tailgating itself isn’t dangerous’ thing I was pointing out should only be take at its most literal level … a bit like the ‘speed kills’ argument … so lets wrap this one up there, I am not defending tailgating, its stupid!! ;)

[markmoto]

Its a wrap :cool:

[MiniMatt]

Got bored, did some maths :D

80MPH (lets call this a typical, if slightly naughty motorway speed) is 117 feet per second.
An incandescent bulb (not a LED) takes about a tenth of a second to reach full intensity, I'll pluck a figure from the air and say it only takes a twentieth of a second to reach a brightness that we'd notice as deserving of attention. In a twentieth of a second we've travelled 5'11"

So the car ahead is braking heavily and before their brake lights have even illuminated, we've travelled nearly six feet, we've then got to contend with human reaction times, movement times (even if left foot was covering the brake), brake engagement times (brakes are a mechanical system, there's a delay in their engagement as the components move), and after all that, so long as we can slow as quickly or quicker than the car in front we're ok.

Without wanting to sound like Mr Highway Code or IAM, safe distances are suprising (though i'll concede the Highway Code listed distances must be for old duffers with drum brakes).

EDIT: Damn, posted before realising it had been put to bed - ignore me! Not wanting to start a flame :D

[Blue_SV650S]

...

You are ignoring the fact that unless the person in front is just slamming on the brakes for no good reason, that they should both be reacting to the same stimuli on the road in the same manner … therefore it has nothing to do with the brake lights at all … again, a pair of F1 cars are not relying on seeing brake lights, they just know they are coming to a corner and brake accordingly … a small child steps out, cars brake accordingly … everything else being equal, they stop at the same points respectively ..

So, that stuff you mention is all well and good if the person behind is myopically reacting to brake lights rather than reading the road for themselves … this is why F1 cars can be in close proximity as they are not looking solely at the car in front, they are looking at the track!!! Especially at them speeds and braking performance, they could never run that close if they were only reacting to the car in front - they may be superhuman, but they still can't react THAT fast!! ;)

[markmoto]

Got bored, did some maths :D

80MPH (lets call this a typical, if slightly naughty motorway speed) is 117 feet per second.
An incandescent bulb (not a LED) takes about a tenth of a second to reach full intensity, I'll pluck a figure from the air and say it only takes a twentieth of a second to reach a brightness that we'd notice as deserving of attention. In a twentieth of a second we've travelled 5'11"

So the car ahead is braking heavily and before their brake lights have even illuminated, we've travelled nearly six feet, we've then got to contend with human reaction times, movement times (even if left foot was covering the brake), brake engagement times (brakes are a mechanical system, there's a delay in their engagement as the components move), and after all that, so long as we can slow as quickly or quicker than the car in front we're ok.

Without wanting to sound like Mr Highway Code or IAM, safe distances are suprising (though i'll concede the Highway Code listed distances must be for old duffers with drum brakes).

EDIT: Damn, posted before realising it had been put to bed - ignore me! Not wanting to start a flame :D

Ahh man look you lit the flame again! :rolleyes:

[Ceri JC]

There are times when brake light flashing is the safest thing you can do IMO, particularly when it's another bike, rather than another car tailgating you. Say you are in the outside lane and the inside lane is rammed with cars, nowhere safe to pull into. Your slowing down in the outside lane will definately wind them up, and if they are a bike, may tempt them to over/under take you within your lane, whereas a quick flash of brake lights (without any real braking) will at least communicate to the ones who are merely inattentive (rather than aggressive ****s) that they are following a bit close and they may drop back. I've even given a "you're too close" hand signal and had cars/vans drop back before now. With a bike, I'll usually move to the far right of the lane and wave them by. If they're in that much of a rush, they can go past me. Of course, if it's safe to do so, I just pull into the slower lane as you described.

[markmoto]

whats the "you're to close" hand signal then??

[Stig]

whats the "you're to close" hand signal then??

That'll be your right hand holding the handlebar grip, your fingers over the lever in front of the handlebar grip and squeezing ever so lightly. Just enough in fact to illuminate the brake light. :wink:

[markmoto]

That'll be your right hand holding the handlebar grip, your fingers over the lever in front of the handlebar grip and squeezing ever so lightly. Just enough in fact to illuminate the brake light. :wink:

yep just what i thought ;)

[Blue_SV650S]

There are times when brake light flashing is the safest thing you can do IMO, particularly when it's another bike, rather than another car tailgating you. Say you are in the outside lane and the inside lane is rammed with cars, nowhere safe to pull into. Your slowing down in the outside lane will definately wind them up, and if they are a bike, may tempt them to over/under take you within your lane, whereas a quick flash of brake lights (without any real braking) will at least communicate to the ones who are merely inattentive (rather than aggressive ****s) that they are following a bit close and they may drop back. I've even given a "you're too close" hand signal and had cars/vans drop back before now. With a bike, I'll usually move to the far right of the lane and wave them by. If they're in that much of a rush, they can go past me. Of course, if it's safe to do so, I just pull into the slower lane as you described.

If we are talking Bike on bike - there is never an excuse to brake flash :smt013 ... if you have clocked them behind, they have caught you up ... pull over slightly and let them through ... indicating where you intend them to pass if necessary ... I hate it when bikes 'hog' :rant:

As long as you are both aware of each others presence, 2 bikes can be in/pass in one lane quite 'safely'...

[AndyW]

You are ignoring the fact that unless the person in front is just slamming on the brakes for no good reason, that they should both be reacting to the same stimuli on the road in the same manner
Erm no?
If I'm cornering I can see further ahead than the car behind can, so I react before he can see whatever it is that causes me to slow down.
If he is behind me on a straight road, I hope to fluff he isn't just watching what is in front of me, I may want to slow down to turn off! (Now tell me indicating is just as bad as flashing the brakelights ;) )

There is a reason that if _you_ rear end someone it is always regarded as being _your_ fault.

[Ceri JC]

If we are talking Bike on bike - there is never an excuse to brake flash :smt013 ... if you have clocked them behind, they have caught you up ... pull over slightly and let them through ... indicating where you intend them to pass if necessary ... I hate it when bikes 'hog' :rant:

As long as you are both aware of each others presence, 2 bikes can be in/pass in one lane quite 'safely'...

Did you not read my post before writing that then?

I did say I move over to let them pass. I did say I indicate this. I did say they can pass in the same lane as me. Them catching up doesn't always mean they are faster riders and I'm holding them up- sometimes it means there isn't an opportunity to overtake/filter and I am waiting for one. I hate bikes blocking my progress too and like to think it's not something I'm guilty of. If someone is close behind and I can't go into the other lane, first thing I'll do is move over in my lane and indicate "go on then, pass" and surprise surprise, they often don't. Perhaps they don't fancy filtering between two transit vans at 90+, nor sitting closer to the vehicle in front than I am?

To re-iterate: I'll flash the brake lights (only) if it's unsafe for me to move in to let them by, or I've already gestured for them to pass and they're not interested and they are still too close (usually when they're blindspotting me). When I say flashing my brake lights, I mean just using the brake enough to put the lights on, not actually slowing me down.

As an aside your argument about the second person should be able to see everything the person in front can is nonsense. There are loads of things that can occur up the road that a tailing vehicle can't always see (wreckage strewn on the road surface, car in front of them swerving, etc.), irrespective of how good/observant/fast to react they are. Even if 9/10 times you can see why they are braking (queues of traffic ahead, etc.) you still need that margin of safety for when they brake for something you haven't seen.

Yes, police riders, riding in close formation use the technique you describe. That's because:
a) They tend to know what they are doing and know/trust each other's abilities.
b) Bikes don't obscure the view ahead (much).

Indeed, when riding in groups with riders I know, I'll ride much closer behind, in a staggered formation, than I would with other vehicles. Relying on this technique when you're following a white van with no rear windows that you can't see past, 2' off the bumper, however, is asking for trouble.

Mototech: Left hand off the bars, glance over your left shoulder at them followed by a "pushing" backwards hand motion with your left hand. Not an official one, but I've yet to have someone misunderstand it. Make sure there's plenty of stopping distance between you and the vehicle in front before doing this mind. ;)

[yorkie_chris]

I think the people that 'brake test' (hit the brake light or slow, either-or) to try and make people drop back are the idiots. It is dangerous as the tailgater might overreact and cause an accident that just didn't exist.

But then you'll be in front of the accident and out of the way...

[Blue_SV650S]

Did you not read my post before writing that then?

Clearly not, what the hell happened there?!?!!! :D ... sorry about that, I seemed to unjustifiably go off on a rant there ... my bad?!!? :D

[Blue_SV650S]

But then you'll be in front of the accident and out of the way...

Screw the rest of the world .. I like your attitude 8) :D

[stuartyboy]

ya both nobs!

[Ceri JC]

Clearly not, what the hell happened there?!?!!! :D ... sorry about that, I seemed to unjustifiably go off on a rant there ... my bad?!!? :D

No problem :)