View Full Version : Increased Taser usage questions
MiniMatt
06-09-07, 11:51 AM
This could very well turn into a debate over the rights and wrongs of the proposed increase in taser carrying amongst the police, but I'd like to start with some questions. I've searched around for this and can't seem to find it, the Org being the font of all knowledge etc...
Currently the IPCC investigate as a matter of routine fatal shootings (actually, not sure, do they investigate all weapon discharges or just those that end in a dead body?), will they be doing the same with taser incidents?
Will anyone investigate as a matter of routine every taser discharge or is it left to the discretion of the officers involved?
Can you tell if a taser has been discharged? Ie. handing it in to the armoury at the end of the shift and the armourer would be able to tell it's been discharged and want to know what happened?
Rules for discharging a firearm appear to be that it can only be done so at the perceived iminent risk to life - are these the same rules that are applied to taser usage or are they to be used in other situations? Resisting arrest? Running away? Already on the ground?
The Brunstrom (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=96361) piece made me think - "I was completely incapable of movement. I would have fallen if I hadn't been supported by my colleagues." - it won't be long before a suspect falls and cracks their skull on a kerbstone. The first few times it'll be a genuine scrote, but sooner or later the suspect will be just that - a suspect, subsequently found to be completely innocent. I would have thought that falling injuries are going to be quite common, given that it acts on the nervous system such that you can't use your arms to cushion your fall; all the "don't worry, it's safe, here's another police chief being zapped video" have people catching the victim, obviously this ain't going to be the case out on them mean streets.
As always, Scoobs is the person to ask about this.
Luckypants
06-09-07, 11:58 AM
As always, Scoobs is the person to ask about this.:notworthy::notworthy:
Ceri JC
06-09-07, 12:05 PM
My main concern is that I suspect it might be used on drunks who the police are fed up of talking to ('reasoning' with drunks= one of the most boring/frustrating things to do). I also think that its use will be treated too lightly (IE nowhere near the level of investigation after a gun has been fired).
As always, Scoobs is the person to ask about this.
yup
All police should have them , wit hthe ammount of tw*ts that are about nowadays it will be usefull to have.
Imagine if there was a gobby little pikey hoody who would not move on! a quick blast from a Tazar will encourage him to be on his way.
I support their use 100%, as if you are a good citizen then you have nothing to fear from the police having them.
Saying that i fully support the use of zero tollerance policing, even better let the military police the strets for a while as an experiment. I for one would relish smacking the butt of my rifle over some chavs head for not doing as he was asked.
The best police force ever in the UK is the RUC (sorry PSNI) they dont take ant sh*t, the mainland forces could lear a thing or two from those guys.
As always, Scoobs is the person to ask about this.
why? Are the rozzers always tasering him????
MiniMatt
06-09-07, 12:50 PM
All police should have them , wit hthe ammount of tw*ts that are about nowadays it will be usefull to have.
Imagine if there was a gobby little pikey hoody who would not move on! a quick blast from a Tazar will encourage him to be on his way.
I support their use 100%, as if you are a good citizen then you have nothing to fear from the police having them.
Saying that i fully support the use of zero tollerance policing, even better let the military police the strets for a while as an experiment. I for one would relish smacking the butt of my rifle over some chavs head for not doing as he was asked.
The best police force ever in the UK is the RUC (sorry PSNI) they dont take ant sh*t, the mainland forces could lear a thing or two from those guys.
And here we get the debate part :D I'm a confessed liberal lefty so you probably know what's coming :D
All police should have them , wit hthe ammount of tw*ts that are about nowadays it will be usefull to have. Here, I'm actually tempted to agree with you.
Imagine if there was a gobby little pikey hoody who would not move on! a quick blast from a Tazar will encourage him to be on his way. No, you arrest him for breaching the peace, infliction of summary violence with the police as judge, jury and executioner ain't the answer.
I support their use 100%, as if you are a good citizen then you have nothing to fear from the police having them. Ahh, the old "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" line. The police occasionally make mistakes, everyone does. Ask Jean Charles de-Menezes. Oh wait, you can't.
I for one would relish smacking the butt of my rifle over some chavs head for not doing as he was asked. See, in the nicest possible way, I sincerly hope that no-one with that view is ever allowed in the police. That's the way they police in Zimbabwe. (EDIT: And if there are a significant number of people in the police force with that view then I really don't want the police carrying more weapons)
I actually do kinda think that we have reached a stage where every police officer carries tasers, I just want to make damn sure that they're used only when necessary and not just because someone's being a bit gobby.
why? Are the rozzers always tasering him????
No need to tazer him, he tazers himself.
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 01:06 PM
All police should have them , wit hthe ammount of tw*ts that are about nowadays it will be usefull to have.
Imagine if there was a gobby little pikey hoody who would not move on! a quick blast from a Tazar will encourage him to be on his way.
I support their use 100%, as if you are a good citizen then you have nothing to fear from the police having them.
Saying that i fully support the use of zero tollerance policing, even better let the military police the strets for a while as an experiment. I for one would relish smacking the butt of my rifle over some chavs head for not doing as he was asked.
The best police force ever in the UK is the RUC (sorry PSNI) they dont take ant sh*t, the mainland forces could lear a thing or two from those guys.
And with stupid fews like this, we can see why the government is often required to ignore the electorate. Especially when it comes to the justice system.
No need to tazer him, he tazers himself.
Scoobs' tazering (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=67069&highlight=tazer)
:)
Anyway I heard that they are giving the go ahead to taser 12yr olds.
why? Are the rozzers always tasering him????
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=67069
Alpinestarhero
06-09-07, 01:27 PM
If a copper points a taser at me, thats it maties, I'm gonna drop to the floor with my hands behind my back quicker than you can say "yyyeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!"
I do not want to be electrocuted, no way.
Matt
SoulKiss
06-09-07, 01:30 PM
No, you arrest him for breaching the peace, infliction of summary violence with the police as judge, jury and executioner ain't the answer.
Yeah, but Judge Dredd was the ULTIMATE bike-cop.
I'd join up if I could have a Lawmaster :)
And a Lawgiver :)
And here we get the debate part :D I'm a confessed liberal lefty so you probably know what's coming :D
Here, I'm actually tempted to agree with you.
No, you arrest him for breaching the peace, infliction of summary violence with the police as judge, jury and executioner ain't the answer.
Ahh, the old "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" line. The police occasionally make mistakes, everyone does. Ask Jean Charles de-Menezes. Oh wait, you can't.
See, in the nicest possible way, I sincerly hope that no-one with that view is ever allowed in the police. That's the way they police in Zimbabwe. (EDIT: And if there are a significant number of people in the police force with that view then I really don't want the police carrying more weapons)
I actually do kinda think that we have reached a stage where every police officer carries tasers, I just want to make damn sure that they're used only when necessary and not just because someone's being a bit gobby.
Arresting him wont teach him a lesson as our far too liberal country will just tell him off for being a naughty boy and he will go away laughing, it will also waste the polices time while they fill in paper work and spend time in custody over some little waste of time boy, when they could be better employed. It could be delt with there and then by teaching the little sod a lesson with the tazer. If him and his mates know the police wont take them being stupid etc they wont hang around, would you? I am not saying it’s the first thing that should be done but it would make a better response to a waste of time arrest.
But then you would get the lefty’s winging about civil liberties.
The nothing to hide line is correct, and yes the police will make mistakes, but on the whole if you are not doing anything wrong then would you really get to the stage where a Tazer can be used? Also in some cases the Tazar makes more sense and prevents fatal consequences of using guns. I would rather see a bloke tazered for messing around with a toy replica than being shot, I am sure you would as well.
My other comments were a bit tongue in cheek. However I do thing the UK has got to the point where something really does need to be done to sort out the state of our country. And no one can ever convince me other than the cause being the slow erosion of discipline at home, school and else where. All topped off with the more and more liberal stance the people in power take on things. What sort of deterrents are there for people when they know that the most they will get is a talking to or some poxy little fine etc.
The evidence is there in history, as the UK has become more liberal and let the discipline slide away the social problems have escalated. More trouble with teens, and youth, more crime and the biggest prison population in Europe!! Coincidence I don’t think so! And the solutions have always been reactive where they need to concentrate on proactive deterrents to crime and anti social disorder.
The Basket
06-09-07, 01:52 PM
The Police do a job that involves bad people on a daily basis. I would give them all to protect themselves from the bad guys.
They do a job that we should thank them for...not critical over a new weapon which has the ability to protect the public.
If scumbags don't like it...who cares. Human rights are for victims too.
Spiderman
06-09-07, 01:56 PM
.....blah blah.... I support their use 100%, as if you are a good citizen then you have nothing to fear from the police having them..... blah de blah.
Here we go again :roll: MiniMatt has pretty much said word for word what i thought of your post but i have to remark about this nonsensical belief people have.
Clearly you mate are in the military so are suceptable to brain washing in a major way. Please dont take that as an attack at you...anyone who joins the forces or police has to be that way. You wont get far if you cant conform and follow orders properly andmake up your own rules about how you do your job.
However you do still have the right and ability to think for yourself before regurgitating this kinda crap from the mouth of politicians, surley!!!
No system or person is infalable, no innocent peson should believe they are "untouchable" just cos they are innocent.
If the cops, or others, think you are guilty then thats it. And making them jude, jury and executioner is just plain wrong.
Slowly slowly our freedoms as citizens are eroded away and replaced by stupid soundbites like the "if youre innocent you have nothing to fear nonsense".
Poor old Jean-Charles paid with his innocent life to make you fools understand that aint true yet day after day sheep who cant or wont think for themselves spout this cr*p like its a true fact.
Maybe by saying ti enough they are convincing (read fooling) themselves but it sure as hell aint fooling those people who have their eyes open on these matters.
Cloggsy
06-09-07, 02:00 PM
Bring back the death sentence too & birch too for anti-social behaviour; stick ASBO's up your @r5e :!: :smt013
Spiderman
06-09-07, 02:14 PM
Bring back the death sentence too & birch too for anti-social behaviour; stick ASBO's up your @r5e :!: :smt013
Give a bad kid a few slaps when he's young enough and he may grow out of his anti-social ways, leave it too late and whatever you do is just guaranteed to bring more violence back to you.
Why do you think younger and younge kids are stabbing and shooting each other on a daily basis? You cant be "street" and get dissed like that in front of your crew, so you goes home and get your best weapon to save face.
Like the old Untouchables line... They bring a knife, you bring a gun. They put one of yours in hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue. Sadly i think thats what the attitude on the streets is and if you go fighting it with force now you're only asking for more trouble in return.
Personaly i'd make jails hell to be in. No electronic nothing. Meagre rations that can be withdrawn as punishment. No reduction in sentances for "good behaviour" rather an increas in sentances for failing to toe the line.
How can any young offender fear jail if its better than home? They get to share a cell with "mates" from the streets and have better access to TV / playstations/porn than they do at home. Yeh, great deterant that is. :roll:
Harsh and long prison sentances are the key i think. Make prison the ultimate threat and ensure those who get sent there are sent after a fair trial. yes there will still be miscarriages of justice but like i said in a previous post no system is infalable.
Here we go again :roll: MiniMatt has pretty much said word for word what i thought of your post but i have to remark about this nonsensical belief people have.
Clearly you mate are in the military so are suceptable to brain washing in a major way. Please dont take that as an attack at you...anyone who joins the forces or police has to be that way. You wont get far if you cant conform and follow orders properly andmake up your own rules about how you do your job.
However you do still have the right and ability to think for yourself before regurgitating this kinda crap from the mouth of politicians, surley!!!
No system or person is infalable, no innocent peson should believe they are "untouchable" just cos they are innocent.
If the cops, or others, think you are guilty then thats it. And making them jude, jury and executioner is just plain wrong.
Slowly slowly our freedoms as citizens are eroded away and replaced by stupid soundbites like the "if youre innocent you have nothing to fear nonsense".
Poor old Jean-Charles paid with his innocent life to make you fools understand that aint true yet day after day sheep who cant or wont think for themselves spout this cr*p like its a true fact.
Maybe by saying ti enough they are convincing (read fooling) themselves but it sure as hell aint fooling those people who have their eyes open on these matters.
You are right I am in the military (and very proud to be so); however I don’t think I have been brain washed at all. Yes we have to do things for a reason and do things when we are told for a reason. But I like you probably understand the reasons for that, cos there will be cases where not doing as you are told when you are told to do it will get people killed. The army always has encouraged free thinking and individually. It does not want robots, but people who can think for themselves as well as understand and respect the need for discipline and authority (something I think is lacking in the main within this country) I on the other hand do feel sorry for lefty liberal’s who cant quite grasp the need for at least some form of discipline in life, or the fact that people should deal with the consequences of their unlawful actions rather than trying to blame some stupid thing that happened in their past that caused them to act the way they did.
I do understand that mistakes will be made, but what do the lefty liberals propose as a solution to the ever growing rise in social disorder, lack of respect for others and the rules and laws of this land? You can not tell me that the loss of things like proper discipline at home and schools has not lead to the increase in anti social disorder along with the lack of punishment dished out for committing crime leading to people thinking they can get away with it.
I don’t agree with the erosion of our freedoms, if anything it has gone the other way with dire consequences to the point now that the law seems to look after the perpetrator more than the victim, in any ones eyes that is wrong.
I make no apologies for my views over the state of the UK and the ways I believe it should be addressed, I think that if any one has been brain washed it is the liberal lefty’s who believe the sh*t that is spouted about how we should respect the criminal and make them feel all loved and wanted, trying to understand why they done it etc blah blah.
Yes I agree that the Brazilian getting shot was really bad, hence my comment that would you not have preferred to see him tazared instead? I am sure he would have as well.
But neither of us were there so can’t really comment, but I assume he was given good clear warnings to stop running etc. And I don’t think the officer who shot him should be held responsible as he was probably doing as he was trained ( you might call t it brain washing) The Army have similar rules of engagement and the big get out clause is that if you thought your life or anyone else’s was in imminent danger then deadly force can be used. (Although I have to admit that would be very hard to prove if he was running away).
Give a bad kid a few slaps when he's young enough and he may grow out of his anti-social ways, leave it too late and whatever you do is just guaranteed to bring more violence back to you.
Why do you think younger and younge kids are stabbing and shooting each other on a daily basis? You cant be "street" and get dissed like that in front of your crew, so you goes home and get your best weapon to save face.
Like the old Untouchables line... They bring a knife, you bring a gun. They put one of yours in hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue. Sadly i think thats what the attitude on the streets is and if you go fighting it with force now you're only asking for more trouble in return.
Personaly i'd make jails hell to be in. No electronic nothing. Meagre rations that can be withdrawn as punishment. No reduction in sentances for "good behaviour" rather an increas in sentances for failing to toe the line.
How can any young offender fear jail if its better than home? They get to share a cell with "mates" from the streets and have better access to TV / playstations/porn than they do at home. Yeh, great deterant that is. :roll:
Harsh and long prison sentances are the key i think. Make prison the ultimate threat and ensure those who get sent there are sent after a fair trial. yes there will still be miscarriages of justice but like i said in a previous post no system is infalable.
Agree with the prison part. yes they should be a place of punishment and a deterant for re-offending.
Grinch is a smelly poo-poo head.
Hey, I heard someone else say it first, ;) besides, this seems to be a rational, adult debate without anyone insulting anyone else yet...
... can't have that now can we? :P
Spiderman
06-09-07, 02:58 PM
You are right I am in the military (and very proud to be so); however I don’t think I have been brain washed at all. Yes we have to do things for a reason and do things when we are told for a reason. But I like you probably understand the reasons for that, cos there will be cases where not doing as you are told when you are told to do it will get people killed. The army always has encouraged free thinking and individually. It does not want robots, but people who can think for themselves as well as understand and respect the need for discipline and authority (something I think is lacking in the main within this country) I on the other hand do feel sorry for lefty liberal’s who cant quite grasp the need for at least some form of discipline in life, or the fact that people should deal with the consequences of their unlawful actions rather than trying to blame some stupid thing that happened in their past that caused them to act the way they did.
Ok, not totaly agreeing with you on the Army/brianwashing thing but you're in it and i aint so the benefit of the doubt gos to you on that point.
Totaly agree about the "do the deed, suffer the consequences like a man" thing tho.
A lot of not nice things have happened in my life but they make me the person that i am and make me not want to inflict bad things on others. I dont use them as an excuse for my nehaviour as seems to be the accepted norm nowdays. "its not his fault his mum/dad/brother used to be cruel to him all his life" ... no its not but its his fault that he thinks becuse of that he can go around in a group an mug anyone weaker than them. Thats his choice, his free will and F all to do with what he went thru, imho.
I do understand that mistakes will be made, but what do the lefty liberals propose as a solution to the ever growing rise in social disorder, lack of respect for others and the rules and laws of this land? You can not tell me that the loss of things like proper discipline at home and schools has not lead to the increase in anti social disorder along with the lack of punishment dished out for committing crime leading to people thinking they can get away with it.
Agreed, if discipline is never handed out when kids are young, its wont be accepted when they get older.
I don’t agree with the erosion of our freedoms, if anything it has gone the other way with dire consequences to the point now that the law seems to look after the perpetrator more than the victim, in any ones eyes that is wrong.
Our freedoms are being erroded mate, thats for sure. Just look at laws stopping us from protesting anywhere near ministers who should see these protests. Look at when the chinese premier visited a few years ago and banners were torn out of the hands of protestors by the police beacuse the chinese dude would be insulted to see them. "Well you've come to a free democartic country, Sir thats what we allow our citizens to do here" is what he should have been told. But no the order was given to the cops to act like criminals and they did. Did any of them that we know about stand up and say "Thats illegal an I for one will not break the law i'm supposed to uphold" or did the brainwashing, fit in with your ranks attaitude take over?
I make no apologies for my views over the state of the UK and the ways I believe it should be addressed, I think that if any one has been brain washed it is the liberal lefty’s who believe the sh*t that is spouted about how we should respect the criminal and make them feel all loved and wanted, trying to understand why they done it etc blah blah.
Agreed as 2 paragraps above.
Yes I agree that the Brazilian getting shot was really bad, hence my comment that would you not have preferred to see him tazared instead? I am sure he would have as well.
But neither of us were there so can’t really comment, but I assume he was given good clear warnings to stop running etc. And I don’t think the officer who shot him should be held responsible as he was probably doing as he was trained ( you might call t it brain washing) The Army have similar rules of engagement and the big get out clause is that if you thought your life or anyone else’s was in imminent danger then deadly force can be used. (Although I have to admit that would be very hard to prove if he was running away).
Alow me to fill you in one this as you clealry have not read all the available facts... Operation Kratos was designed to deal with suspected suicide bombers and the trainign was given to our cops mainly by the Israeli security forces an Mossad. Their training advises that warnign a pottential bomber that you are police gives him enough time to press the buton and detonate the explosives. So no warning is to be given and headshots, numerous headshots at that, are advised as the massive and continued trauma will interfere with the ability to press the button.
Now fair enough...IF your intellegance is beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The serving soldier who was watching the property was busy taking a pee at the time JC left the property and advised this up lone to his controllers. JC was already on the train and by all accounts and reading a free newspaper he picked up on the way into the tube station when he was approched by one plain clothes officers. This 1st guy jumps on him and pins him to his seat with his arms held againt his sides and the 2nd, and possibly the 3rd, officers enter with guns drawn and fire a total of 11 shots at his head, 3 of which miss the target.
The operational factors imo were good to deal with the type of person they were after but if no-one can positively identify the suspect as being who they think he may be then what to do. In this instance Commander Cressida **** thought it justified to give the ambiguous order of "stop him getting on the train" to her officers who were about to put their lives on the line (or so they thought). The individulas who pulled the triggers i have no issue with, what led to that is so badly ut together and poor in its execution that those responsible for this poor boys death should be serving jail terms right now.
Your life it appears is only worth some guy taking a pee at the wrong time and those in charge of him not giving a damn as they (like the street urchins) know they wont be held accountable or if they are they will only get a slapped wrist.
So again, please dont tell me that if i'm innocent i have nothing to worry about. I share skin colour, hair and eye colour with that dead boy and i also come originaly from one of the countries in the "axis of evil" so i'm prime meat for those wanting to make mistakes at my expense.
Spiderman
06-09-07, 03:01 PM
Grinch is a smelly poo-poo head.
Hey, I heard someone else say it first, ;) besides, this seems to be a rational, adult debate without anyone insulting anyone else yet...
... can't have that now can we? :P
Who would dare say such things about our smelly Grinch friend eh?
And yes, please lets all hope this can remain the sensible adut debate its been so far.
K, 100 lines for tomorrow please, saying "I promise not to s**t stir for comdey value ever again" or its the cane young lady.
Oh who am i kidding, i'll bring the cane, you get the blow up doll patched up (again) and we're in business :D
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 03:02 PM
I do understand that mistakes will be made, but what do the lefty liberals propose as a solution to the ever growing rise in social disorder, lack of respect for others and the rules and laws of this land? You can not tell me that the loss of things like proper discipline at home and schools has not lead to the increase in anti social disorder along with the lack of punishment dished out for committing crime leading to people thinking they can get away with it.
I don’t agree with the erosion of our freedoms, if anything it has gone the other way with dire consequences to the point now that the law seems to look after the perpetrator more than the victim, in any ones eyes that is wrong.
I make no apologies for my views over the state of the UK and the ways I believe it should be addressed, I think that if any one has been brain washed it is the liberal lefty’s who believe the sh*t that is spouted about how we should respect the criminal and make them feel all loved and wanted, trying to understand why they done it etc blah blah.
Just because someone doesn't agree with incresed police powers doesn't mean they're lefty liberal. The biggest thing that'll deter a criminal is the risk of being caught, NOT the punishment they're likely to receive. All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails wouldn't supply us with.
... All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails would supply us with.
Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...
JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.
As for the police carrying tazers? Yes, why not? If I keep my nose clean then I don't have to worry.
Spiderman
06-09-07, 03:13 PM
Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...
JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.
As for the police carrying tazers? Yes, why not? If I keep my nose clean then I don't have to worry.
Wow, it amazes me how the lies the cops and papers tell sticks so well even this long after the fact when they hav e appologised for the lie and withdrawn it.
His student visa had expired but he had a valid vais for being here at the time. And he wasnt in the wrong place mate. he and many other peeps were on their way to work like good citizens. Its the poor intellegence that led to his death, nothing else.
Wow, it amazes me how the lies the cops and papers tell sticks so well even this long after the fact when they hav e appologised for the lie and withdrawn it.
His student visa had expired but he had a valid vais for being here at the time. And he wasnt in the wrong place mate. he and many other peeps were on their way to work like good citizens. Its the poor intellegence that led to his death, nothing else.
So if I'm innocent and the cops are running at me do I run?
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 03:19 PM
Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...
The police have all the powers they need to do their job. As for smarter beauraucrats, ha!
JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.
Oh that makes it all ok then. Lets just allow the police to arbitrarily shoot suspects, that'll work nicely. But as Spidey says, he wasn't even here illegally.
Just because someone doesn't agree with incresed police powers doesn't mean they're lefty liberal. The biggest thing that'll deter a criminal is the risk of being caught, NOT the punishment they're likely to receive. All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails wouldn't supply us with.
A new slant on that, yes knowledge is power, so therefore the police should start acting like the Gestapo then? i.e a secret police as to gather effective intelligence on people it needs to be done covertly.
So should we have a SOCA and MI5 type branch of every police force? As this would be the only decent way to gather Intelligence. That in itself opens up a whole new can of worms.
A bit like the Old Romeo towers in NI, keeping watch on the IRA in South Armagh. No denying it deterred them and probably did help reduce terrorist attacks around the area, but on the other hand it did lead to the IRA becoming cleverer, which in turn led to the UK security forces becoming even cleverer. To be expected with the amount of money we threw at it.
I for one welcome that for the detection and deterrent of big crime and terrorism, but even I would find that extreme for chavs and anti social crimes.
Not to mention a waste of time, when good discipline and mentoring from parents and schools would help, but again I then come back to the fact that that is what is missing from the UK today.
The police have all the powers they need to do their job. As for smarter beauraucrats, ha!
Oh that makes it all ok then. Lets just allow the police to arbitrarily shoot suspects, that'll work nicely. But as Spidey says, he wasn't even here illegally.
My point is that innocent people dont run from the cops...If you have something to hide on the other hand...
...
Not to mention a waste of time, when good discipline and mentoring from parents and schools would help, but again I then come back to the fact that that is what is missing from the UK today.
Exactly...
And its the very same liberal lefty brigade that brought this upon themselves and others...
Freedom this and human rights that...
Tazer the lot of em I say!
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 03:28 PM
A new slant on that, yes knowledge is power, so therefore the police should start acting like the Gestapo then? i.e a secret police as to gather effective intelligence on people it needs to be done covertly.
Absolutely not. You'd be well to learn the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
MiniMatt
06-09-07, 03:30 PM
I'm only going to rise to the Menezes posts as some mis-information as clearly stuck.
Initial reports from eye witnesses were wrong. Two seperate investigations into the shooting have shown some key facts:
1. He did not run. The two reports believe that witnesses saw the plain clothes police running and jumping the barrier. All police testimony to the reports agree that the victim did not run from the police.
2. He was not wearing "bulky clothing, too hot for the day". Again, the reports suggest these early eye witness accounts were actually referring to plain clothes police.
3. He was sat down on the train, then police officers entered the train, then they restrained him. Then they shot him. There is some confusion in the reports as to when the police identified themselves as police officers, despite early media reports to the contrary, in the enquiries they could not state that they definitely identified themselves as police before the shooting.
Clearly something went horribly wrong but none of the reports identified anything JCdM could have done differently on the day to avoid it.
Biker Biggles
06-09-07, 03:31 PM
I believe he was sat on a tube train at the time.Can't have run that far.
Let's admit it,the whole affair was a clusterf*ck of the highest order.No one intended an innocent man get killed but it happened.
As for the above debate,what worries me is the assumption that coppers on the beat are good arbiters of who gets a good hiding,or a tazering,or even fitted up and sent down for a while.Most coppers are good upstanding members of society,just like anyone else,but history tells us that given too much power people become corrupted by it,and abuse it.Coppers are no exception to this,and that's why we have strict rules concerning when they can use their powers and when they can use force.
Im not anti giving police guns tazers or anything else,just as long as their use is strictly controlled.
Too many irregularities in the JCDM debate now so I refuse to get involved in that one any further.
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 03:41 PM
Too many irregularities in the JCDM debate now so I refuse to get involved in that one any further.
The irregularities are irrelevant. This is what happens. Through incompetance or abuse when the police missuse their power innocent people pay a very heavy price. It is why wishing for greater police power is highly unwise.
The irregularities are irrelevant. This is what happens. Through incompetance or abuse when the police missuse their power innocent people pay a very heavy price. It is also why wishing for greater police power is highly unwise.
Its not just the police...its human nature.
Through incompetance or abuse when the police missuse their power innocent people pay a very heavy price. .
The two are very diferent!
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 03:48 PM
Its not just the police...its human nature.
So that makes killing people ok?
The two are very diferent!
So if the police are given the power to shoot you dead for no reason, are you going to care why it happened?
So that makes killing people ok?
So if the police are given the power to shoot you dead for no reason, are you going to care why it happened?
See, now you're taking it out of context...
Its in human nature to abuse power somewhat and that is only suppressed by your own morals and conscience.
And no sane govt. would give anyone in public service the right to just willy-nilly take someone elses life without due cause.
yes i would care but, they can only abuse a power if there was no other way to deal with the situation. I.e i had no weapon and was sat down and surrendering, to shoot me dead would be a bit of an over kill (excuse the pun)
yes they have the power to kill me but abused that power.
Not through incompotence of bad inteligence. That is different.
Jackie_Black
06-09-07, 04:41 PM
Personally (as a teacher) I think the education system is completely flawed now and the state of the country is going to decline even more in the next 10 years.
We cannot get rid of the bad kids anymore. Exclusion no longer exists and we need to operate an inclusion policy. Kids can call me a C**t and tell me to F**K off and at most they get one or two days off and are returned to my lesson. In the past they were put in Pupil Refferal Units that are geared to deal with this type of behaviour. So all the kids see me taking loads of grief off other kids and know nothing really bad will happen to them.
We are allowed to restrain children (to protect others or themselves) if needed but if you do the kids are telling you their rights and saying "you can't do that" etc etc
Tazers for the police are an excellent idea and I won't be suprised if they end up in rough schools in the next 5 years. Tazers are non lethal (most of the time) and will be an extra deterrent to criminals. My friend is in the met and in 4 years he has never drawn his baton or used his CS Spray, but as he says they are there if he needs them.
Rant over
Flamin_Squirrel
06-09-07, 04:59 PM
See, now you're taking it out of context...
Its in human nature to abuse power somewhat and that is only suppressed by your own morals and conscience.
And no sane govt. would give anyone in public service the right to just willy-nilly take someone elses life without due cause.
Ok, so you don't want them to be able to shoot people willy nilly, but it's ok to shoot first ask questions later?
Ok, so you don't want them to be able to shoot people willy nilly, but it's ok to shoot first ask questions later?
No!!!! Thats not what I said either...
If that was the case I would get my mates in the plod force to go round the local chavs houses and kick the crap outta them for me everytime they start stirring **** round here:smt045
Spiderman
06-09-07, 06:10 PM
I'm only going to rise to the Menezes posts as some mis-information as clearly stuck.
Initial reports from eye witnesses were wrong. Two seperate investigations into the shooting have shown some key facts:
1. He did not run. The two reports believe that witnesses saw the plain clothes police running and jumping the barrier. All police testimony to the reports agree that the victim did not run from the police.
2. He was not wearing "bulky clothing, too hot for the day". Again, the reports suggest these early eye witness accounts were actually referring to plain clothes police.
3. He was sat down on the train, then police officers entered the train, then they restrained him. Then they shot him. There is some confusion in the reports as to when the police identified themselves as police officers, despite early media reports to the contrary, in the enquiries they could not state that they definitely identified themselves as police before the shooting.
Clearly something went horribly wrong but none of the reports identified anything JCdM could have done differently on the day to avoid it.
Everything this man says is correct. Thank god for intelligent people who read and research things a little futher than the front pages of the News of The World.
I for one cant wait till the IPCC publishes its full investigations.
Sad to note that the person with the big conciense who leaked that pic of JC on the floor of the tube train so we could all see he was dressed in jeans and a demin jacket, gets prosecuted triple quick whilst the only negative thing to come close to he cops is a Health and Safety issue so far.
And from what i have read it seems very likely thats all that will come of the investigation apart from some recomendations on how to improve their operations.
Pathetic eh? I get wound up by this...i can only imagine how his poor family must feel.
Maybe he was a spy , and it was a cover story just to have him killled??
Pedrosa
06-09-07, 07:53 PM
If I remember correctly, Demenzes was actually shot 5 times in the face and head? From complete point blank range. If your gonna f*ck a job up....really f*ck it up hey? It was sheer blood lust by people who are supposed to be professionals. How people who could fail so badly in a crucial situation, could ever be deemed suitable for the job in the first place beggars belief. What kind of screening and testing are these people subjected to?
Sorry,carry on.......
If I remember correctly, Demenzes was actually shot 5 times in the face and head? From complete point blank range. If your gonna f*ck a job up....really f*ck it up hey? It was sheer blood lust by people who are supposed to be professionals. How people who could fail so badly in a crucial situation, could ever be deemed suitable for the job in the first place beggars belief. What kind of screening and testing are these people subjected to?
Sorry,carry on.......
yeah i know, FFS it only takes a short 3 round burst to do the job neatly and effectivly. Shame on those officers, wasting 2 rounds. Back to the ranges for them i think!! Remedial shooting practice.
5 rounds, amatures!!!!:rolleyes:
Spiderman
06-09-07, 08:20 PM
If I remember correctly, Demenzes was actually shot 5 times in the face and head? From complete point blank range. If your gonna f*ck a job up....really f*ck it up hey? It was sheer blood lust by people who are supposed to be professionals. How people who could fail so badly in a crucial situation, could ever be deemed suitable for the job in the first place beggars belief. What kind of screening and testing are these people subjected to?
Sorry,carry on.......
Dude, please read back at one of my earlier points. Operation Kratos's fundematal reason for being is exactly to do this and the ONLY outcome should the operation go ahead.
Its not an operation to capture and arrest or deter in any way. Its an eradication of the target and nothing else.
The guys did EXACTLY what they were trained to do. Sneak up to the subject, restrain his arms and empty a clip into the head.
My initial reaction the day it happened and the story was told of how many times he was shot was exactly the same as yours.
Yet when i read the details of Operation Kratos and the training and implementation and the cicumstances for its use i was truly horrified by the details of it.
Thats why heads should roll up above, those who gave the order to "stop him" without being 100% sure he was who they thought he was....let alone if he was a threat in any way to anyone.
Why the hell the order to kill was given is what truly baffles me. Whether it was JC or Osama BIn Laden himself...unless they had a genuine reason to believe he was about to blow himself up they cant just go about gunning people down!
If they saw wires dangling from his coat or sumsuch then fair enough dont risk it, kill him. But nothing like that ever happend. They ran onto a tube train where some guy was sitting down and killed him and then asked the qustions about who he really was.
Then sent out a lot of misinformation double quick to the press to take some of the heat off themselves and have time to try and come up with a credible reason.
Sorry rant over...its just the whole thing really gets to me.
Anyway, wast this thread about cops and having Tazers??
Sorry for the mini hijack there.
All Police officers should be armed with tazers. How can we protect the public if we cant have the tools to protect ourselfs? Just because I have a asp and CS already doesnt make me what to "fire at will" as soon as i get the chance.
I will be no help to anyone if I am dead!
Ch00
husky03
06-09-07, 08:50 PM
The biggest thing that'll deter a criminal is the risk of being caught, NOT the punishment they're likely to receive. All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails wouldn't supply us with.
Don't agree with you there mate-deal with scumbags on a daily basis who don't care if there caught breaking the law because they know that the punishment will not fit the crime-whats your experience on this?, how many criminals have you spoken to that have said that going to jail has made them think twice about re-offending due to the punishment?-not one has said to me that going to prison under the current system has put them off offending as they know its gonna be a soft sentence.As for the taser,until you are put in the situation where another humanbeings life is at risk(there own or others due to a persons actions )and the choice is to either shoot them where the chances are that there will be a fatality or tazer them in a controlled situation, as a cop I know what i'd rather pick.If a cop decides he has to shoot a person, in this country every single shot must be justified.I've been there when the tazer has been used on a guy who was repeatedly stabbing himself,threatening to kill anyone who came near him,was putting his head through windows , attempting to cut his wrists and throat,then he made a lunge for the cops that were trying to help him-without the tazer he would have been shot dead-ended up with a couple of puncture wounds on his body and a sore head, but he was able to breath when he came round.
husky
The Basket
06-09-07, 11:59 PM
More tazers and less Guardian readers.
Would you rather the Police had more 9mm or tazers?
All other Police forces carry guns as standard so we are lucky the UK don't.
Give teachers tazers too.
MiniMatt
07-09-07, 07:29 AM
All Police officers should be armed with tazers. How can we protect the public if we cant have the tools to protect ourselfs? Just because I have a asp and CS already doesnt make me what to "fire at will" as soon as i get the chance.
I will be no help to anyone if I am dead!
Ch00
See I'm quite happy to agree with that, you're in those situations and you can tell if they're needed or not. All I wanted to clarify are the rules/guidelines for their usage. The police are the only public servants who are tacitly allowed to inflict violence on the public in the course of their duties and I simply believe that needs to be monitored - who polices the police etc.
The police are not the military, the police are mandated to enforce the rule of law by the people. The people are not some hostile populace to be quelled and subdued, we actually give the police their powers. I just want to clarify the monitoring of those powers, as if abused, by even a tiny number, I believe the mandate of the people will erode and the police will find their job much harder and more dangerous, as it could become more of a military role with a populace hostile to the policing powers.
Oh, and on the Menezes derail - it wasn't just five bullets. Eleven shots were fired, seven to his head, one to his shoulder and three missed. Hollow point bullets were used (incidently, these have been banned in warfare since the Hague Convention of 1899). These shots were fired over a thirty second period, roughly one shot every three seconds. Obviously not a "spray and pray" from an automatic but individual considered shots.
Oh, and on the Menezes derail - it wasn't just five bullets. Eleven shots were fired, seven to his head, one to his shoulder and three missed. Hollow point bullets were used (incidently, these have been banned in warfare since the Hague Convention of 1899). These shots were fired over a thirty second period, roughly one shot every three seconds. Obviously not a "spray and pray" from an automatic but individual considered shots.
11 and only 7 hit from close range, see amatures!!
They would have been single shot yes if they were from a 9mm pistol, but if the police had the MP5 with folding stock (easy to hide under a suit jacket) then chances are they would have been on burst.
And Hollow points are still used by the Special forces and other government and some police type agencys around the world ( more destructive), but they dont exactly sign up to the rules of warfare do they??
Pedrosa
07-09-07, 01:04 PM
Neio79..You have on more than one occasion attempted to bring your warped sense of humour to this thread.I personally find it offensive. I know you belong to an institutionalised organisation but I can think of others where people with a mentality like yours would be best placed.
For the record I am certainly no namby, pamby PC minded individual.
Neio79..You have on more than one occasion attempted to bring your warped sense of humour to this thread.I personally find it offensive. I know you belong to an institutionalised organisation but I can think of others where people with a mentality like yours would be best placed.
For the record I am certainly no namby, pamby PC minded individual.
Like where??
well i though it was funny, but hey you dont so im sorry to have offended you. However if you find my humour offending so what, i dont care thats your problem not mine!!
Now where have i left that big bag of bothered??
Pedrosa
07-09-07, 02:01 PM
TBH I was getting bored with the munitions expertise being shared to all us civvies by a Royal Signal(arent your boys more likely to be caught with a computer mouse in their hands than a gun?.)........where one always looks first when there is some serious fighting to be done! :)
But dont mind me.;)
TBH I was getting bored with the munitions expertise being shared to all us civvies by a Royal Signal(arent your boys more likely to be caught with a computer mouse in their hands than a gun?.)........where one always looks first when there is some serious fighting to be done! :)
But dont mind me.;)
LOL, well i assume you have some mil experiance yourself then? But we are all soldiers first, apparantly!
Actually the signals are the only other Cap badge to be associated with the SAS properly, we have our own SF regiment attached to them, of which one of the squadrons has an Operators and a Techs attached to each of the Sabre Squadrons a lot of the time who go out on ops with them. So there are some signalers who have got higher skills and more gun time than a lot of the Army.Skilled in the art of comms and killing people.
I am actually hoping to get posted to said regiment next actually.
But on a whole yes we are more likley to be dealing with IT and comms as that is out role.
Hasent stopped me experiancing a lot of non comms things and situations.
stevenford_uk
07-09-07, 04:37 PM
i like this thread, i agree with you neio79 your humour is well justified, any scumbag out there that resists arrest deserves to be tasered, i may have missed a reply to this but in the 1st post in this thread a question was asked if the armoury would be able to tell if the taser had been used. unless i am wrong the taser has a paper/plastic cover in front of the barbs that fire from it. and once fired this is broken so needs to be replaced etc.
someone correct me if i am wrong.
Pedrosa
07-09-07, 05:13 PM
LOL, well i assume you have some mil experiance yourself then? But we are all soldiers first, apparantly!
Actually the signals are the only other Cap badge to be associated with the SAS properly, we have our own SF regiment attached to them, of which one of the squadrons has an Operators and a Techs attached to each of the Sabre Squadrons a lot of the time who go out on ops with them. So there are some signalers who have got higher skills and more gun time than a lot of the Army.Skilled in the art of comms and killing people.
I am actually hoping to get posted to said regiment next actually.
But on a whole yes we are more likley to be dealing with IT and comms as that is out role.
Hasent stopped me experiancing a lot of non comms things and situations.
Well I cant be sharing too much info to a Scaley Back like yourself now can I? I can understand you wanting to ship out when that Bownman (Better Off With A Nokia) is amongst the best kit you have.
Your as well getting a transfer as The Sigs can well soon get replaced by a good old reliable Motorola!
I like it though with the "Weekend" boys.
i like this thread, i agree with you neio79 your humour is well justified, any scumbag out there that resists arrest deserves to be tasered, i may have missed a reply to this but in the 1st post in this thread a question was asked if the armoury would be able to tell if the taser had been used. unless i am wrong the taser has a paper/plastic cover in front of the barbs that fire from it. and once fired this is broken so needs to be replaced etc.
someone correct me if i am wrong.
aww so kind!! i like you LOL
More tazers and less Guardian readers.
Would you rather the Police had more 9mm or tazers?
All other Police forces carry guns as standard so we are lucky the UK don't.
Give teachers tazers too.
See now there's something to ponder...arm the british police just like any other force in the world!:rolleyes:
Well I cant be sharing too much info to a Scaley Back like yourself now can I? I can understand you wanting to ship out when that Bownman (Better Off With A Nokia) is amongst the best kit you have.
Your as well getting a transfer as The Sigs can well soon get replaced by a good old reliable Motorola!
I like it though with the "Weekend" boys.
And what might you be Mr Pedrosa? (appart from weedy spanish Moto GP wanna be)
I dont want to ship out i would still in the Signals but if i got posted to that SF regiment i would be doing a slightly different role to the main stream units.
Bowman is actually good if you learn how to use it properly. oh by the way its Better Off With Map And Nokia ;)
They will never replace us, never i say!!
I think Mr Pedrosa was http://www.myfishingpictures.com/watermark.php?file=500/50654171.gif for a bite...
and got a bit of a nibble...
Spiderman
11-09-07, 02:59 PM
Fresh view on the whole Tazer issue... should this thug have got off so lightly? And does this raise the whole question of "If the cops all have Tazers then what will the crims carry in return?"
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23411719-details/Locked+up%3A+thug+who+zapped+teacher+with+a+millio n-volt+stun+gun/article.do
Oh and this bit made me sick... "Initially he had claimed he had an alibi. The court heard he had lived alone since he was 15, and that he took drugs. He was expelled from three schools and had no job."
So thats now an alibi? FFS!
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.