Advanced riding – braking

[Blue_SV650S]

Reading a ‘roadcraft’ type book at the weekend, in the ADVANCED RIDING section it said that one should only ever brake in a straight line, brakes should only be on/applied mid-corner if there is a sudden need to …

This is an ADVANCED technique? :smt017

[Idleater]

This is an ADVANCED technique? :smt017
I've done the RoSPA and it was definitely not recommended.
Possible, like anything, but not recommended.

I don't like braking mid corner. Was at a track day there a week ago, and saw some fine examples in the middle of the gravel, why you shouldn't really be doing that.

If you can do it progressively, ie apply the brakes lightly, load the front wheel, then apply more brake power, then it is less unstabling for the bike, but since you are moving the weight to the small front tyre, which is over on it's side, you can see how thin a line you are on.

Brake and gear change in a straight line, bank the bike over and be on positive throttle to maintain weight transfer to the big rear tyre.

"in like a cat out like a lion"

[plowsie]

Its easy get ya observation sorted and you dont need to brake ;) probably be a bit quicker if you did...O well i ride how i like to ride and my riding i dont like to use the brakes too much.

[MiniMatt]

I think I see where you're coming from. Either you're questioning why it's in the advanced section as it really should be in the basic section, or you're thinking that the advanced section should have techniques for braking mid corner?

I suppose whether you're advanced or novice you're always going to want to aim to brake in a straight line where possible, but as you gain experience you begin to get a feel for how much braking can be applied up to the apex and the effect braking whilst banked over has on the bike and the geometry. Trouble is that all that can only really be taught by experience, you can throw some general pointers in there like "really try not to", and "if you have to, make it soft and smooth, perhaps try back a bit more than front" etc. But experience will teach you braking limits.

Suppose the other thing to mention is that these books tend not to be aimed at racing, where you and I tend to come from (whether that be on track, or occasionally ahem, on the Queen's highway), the aim in racing is to get round the corner as fast as possible, and if you think that by late braking up to the apex you'll stand a 90% chance of keeping it rubber side down you'll probably take those odds. Books geared to rapid road progression however are always going to aim for a 99.9% (or higher) chance of making it round a corner.

[weazelz]

IAM told me off for braking into apexes (sp?)

I think it is an advanced technique though, whether advanced means more advanced than average or more advanced than novice is debateable though

[Jackie_Black]

Well i got a bollocking on saturday from my IAM instructor for braking mid corner. Especially as it was the front brake and the wheel was travelling over a squished rabbit at the time (almost lost it). He was right though, corner braking is silly. If you're going to fast just chuck the bike in anyway it will probably make it :thumright:

[petevtwin650]

Reading a ‘roadcraft’ type book at the weekend, in the ADVANCED RIDING section it said that one should only ever brake in a straight line, brakes should only be on/applied mid-corner if there is a sudden need to …

This is an ADVANCED technique? :smt017

I think that they are saying that braking mid corner etc is not a good idea, no matter how proficient you are, so use only in an emergency situation.

[sinbad]

Certainly sudden braking whilst actually in the corner is a bad idea, but to say flatly that ALL braking must be done in a straight line is odd. Maybe they're just safer to assume that people have no feel or clue about grip/basic tyre physics until they know for sure that they do.

[MiniMatt]

Yep, I think it's definitely a case of taking things either from a race or a road position. A pro race rider is arguably infinitely better at controlling their machine than an IAM instructor. Yet the IAM instructor is more likely to get home in one piece. Who's the better rider? The race rider may say that braking into the corner is fine, it gets me through the corner quicker and that way I win races. The IAM instructor will say you shouldn't brake into a corner as you're using up traction that could otherwise be used for turning and you leave yourself no safety margin for rabbit/gravel based emergencies. Who's right?

The answer to both question is "both" and "neither".

PS. Note I used the phrase "pro race rider". I've no problem agreeing with the principle that a lot of IAM instructors would whup most weekend warriors on a track day, but put them against any professional racer and they'd surely be lapped shortly after me :D

[Jackie_Black]

Yeah they are doing different things. The IAM guy generally has to use his bike to get places and therefore cant go flat out into corners on the brakes then fly round on the perfect line whereas the racer can and they don't care if they bin it they will just get another one!!

[Stig]

Yep, I think it's definitely a case of taking things either from a race or a road position. A pro race rider is arguably infinitely better at controlling their machine than an IAM instructor. Yet the IAM instructor is more likely to get home in one piece. Who's the better rider? The race rider may say that braking into the corner is fine, it gets me through the corner quicker and that way I win races. The IAM instructor will say you shouldn't brake into a corner as you're using up traction that could otherwise be used for turning and you leave yourself no safety margin for rabbit/gravel based emergencies. Who's right?

The answer to both question is "both" and "neither".

PS. Note I used the phrase "pro race rider". I've no problem agreeing with the principle that a lot of IAM instructors would whup most weekend warriors on a track day, but put them against any professional racer and they'd surely be lapped shortly after me :D

I like this explanation. I like it a lot. Braking into corners is a race activity. Advanced riding has nothing to do with racing. In an ideal world an advanced rider should never need to brake round corners. Their observation skills would have already assessed the situation and they would have completed the required braking before reaching the corner.

[sinbad]

I like this explanation. I like it a lot. Braking into corners is a race activity. Advanced riding has nothing to do with racing. In an ideal world an advanced rider should never need to brake round corners. Their observation skills would have already assessed the situation and they would have completed the required braking before reaching the corner.

But don't you think the categorical "only ever in a straight line" makes it something that is actually hard to apply to real roads? I can think of a few corners local to me that you would need to slow to a very low speed prior to, despite them being very gentle and then tightening towards the exit, or double apex corners with a gentle first part, and tight second part, or a long gentle corner to the right approaching a tight left, for example. I agree that advanced riding may not have anything to do with racing, but I was always under the impression that part of the reason behind IAM is to improve speed and control on the road. Maybe this rule does that in a way, or at least reduces the risks, but I think that by following it you wouldn't be improving your level of control, merely refusing to challenge it (if you see what I mean).

[grh1904]

Advanced driving/riding is based on the Police system of car/bike control called IPSGA

INFORMATION

POSITION

SPEED

GEAR

ACCLERATION

You are meant to use your forward obs and planning as you approach a corner, and look at your limit point. If it's a right hander then take up a position in the left hand third of your lane, left hander get out almost as far as the white line down the cente of the road. (this gives you the greatest vision around the corner)

Your speed should match the speed of the limit point, ie if it's closing in your going to fast etc, and you trade off speed until the limit point moves at the speed of your bike, if you need to brake then that's when you do it.

Once you've got your speed right and travelling at the speed you need for the corner then you select the gear that you want to travel the corner and accelerate out of.

Tip the bike in and hold the throttle constant.

Once the limit points moves away from you then give it some more right wrist, BUT, you should also use your forward obs and planning to be scanning ahead for the next hazard. No good going round bend in 4th, at about 6,000 revs than nail it to the red line if the next corner is only 100yds away, then you would be under heavy braking, not a smooth ride at all, absolutley no forward observation and planning. % of crash risk - V. high.

I use this all the time when I'm out, it means I can have a hoon, but get home with all my little arms and legs in the places I left them the last time.

[Toypop]

When you approach a junction or side road that is located around a bend then you have to brake whilst cornering. You can't slow down to 10mph then go round the bend at that speed. Never had a problem braking whilst cornering. It is a basic skill I learned whilst riding motorcross bikes at age 7. Any half decent rider should have a feel for how much they can brake whilst leaned over and which brake to use the most etc.

I have to say that most of the stuff I hear from IAM and advanced riding literature is just the biggest load of patronising nonsense going. They should stay at home with their pipe and slippers and stay away from bikes.

[Blue_SV650S]

Ok, yes to clarify, my shock is that I see this as the most BASIC way to go about business!!! Grabbing large handfuls mid corner is a no-no, sure, but braking into the corner, (ultimately all the way to the apex) is surely the way forward? Even for road ‘progressive’ riding??? …

After reading this last night, I actually tried only braking whilst upright today, not only was it difficult to find times when I was 100% upright for any period, I ended up going painfully slowly beacuse of this very fact (i.e. I had no points I could brake (upright), so had to go real slow), I was making no marked ‘progress’ at all. Sure ‘safe’ as I was only going slow, but ‘progress’ …no …

I agree head down all the way to the apex might be a little OTT for road riding, but to dismiss any dragging the brakes into a corner … I don’t see that as advanced …

[mister c]

This is actually covered in the CBT. We always tell our students to brake before coming into a bend & not in the bend itself.

[Blue_SV650S]

This is actually covered in the CBT. We always tell our students to brake before coming into a bend & not in the bend itself.

Indeed, so at the most basic level its a good idea - start simple ... but ADVANCED (presumably AIM etc) riding technique? :smt017 You ain’t going anywhere ‘progressively' like that ;)

[fizzwheel]

I trail the front brake into a bend now and again on the road on the GSXR, It felt really odd at first, but now I think I do it a lot more than I think I do.

I find I switch riding styles between the SV and the GSXR and I just dont have the confidence in the SV front end to do it.

I guess its a kinda useful skill and its just another tool in the box to get you out of trouble, but it might also land me in trouble at the same time. I'd defo not do it on the SV though.

[Blue_SV650S]

...

If you naturally do it on the GIXER, I can't see how you don't do it AT ALL on the SV? Sure, you won't be wanting to go as deep/hard in on the SV as the GIXER, but not at all??? :smt017

[weazelz]

Ok, yes to clarify, my shock is that I see this as the most BASIC way to go about business!!! Grabbing large handfuls mid corner is a no-no, sure, but braking into the corner, (ultimately all the way to the apex) is surely the way forward? Even for road ‘progressive’ riding??? …

I sometimes think that you forget just what an advanced/fast rider you are Nick. I think most people have had it drummed into them that using the front brake when not upright will have them on their arses quicker than you can say a very quick thing

I definitely think that braking into an corner is a part of smooth progressive riding - having to be off the brakes & have the bike settled before turning in reduces the fluidity of riding for me. I do moderate it if conditions are not optimum - especially if it's wet/slippery/bumpy. I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative

[fizzwheel]

If you naturally do it on the GIXER, I can't see how you don't do it AT ALL on the SV? Sure, you won't be wanting to go as deep/hard in on the SV as the GIXER, but not at all??? :smt017

I dont know I havent really thought about it that much :D I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get much better feel from the GSXR, so I feel more confident on it. I dont get the same level of feedback / feel from the SV, so I dont feel as confident on the front as I do on the GSXR.

I rememeber when I started riding I scared myself a couple of times on the SV with a handful of front brake so I'm wary of just how fast it stands up and runs straight when you do it. I guess because I've never had that experience on the GSXR ( because I'm a more experienced rider now ) that that negative block about trail braking isnt there.

I suspect I might be doing it though. I also use the bikes for different things and I ride the SV alot more in the wet, rubbish wintery conditions where I tend to ride alot more gently that I do on the GSXR on warm summer days.

[Blue_SV650S]

I sometimes think that you forget just what an advanced/fast rider you are Nick. I think most people have had it drummed into them that using the front brake when not upright will have them on their arses quicker than you can say a very quick thing

I definitely think that braking into an corner is a part of smooth progressive riding - having to be off the brakes & have the bike settled before turning in reduces the fluidity of riding for me. I do moderate it if conditions are not optimum - especially if it's wet/slippery/bumpy. I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative

Sure I have I have put my time in on the road and track, but I don't profess to be any more than the tool I am!! :D However I do appreciate what is basic riding and advanced riding (to my mind anyhoo). I feel most techniques used on track can be directly uatilised (at least to some degree) on the road and visa versa.

As well as hazard perception etc, advanced motoring is about greater vehicle control right? I like you feel that if you are not using the brakes into a turn that you really are not controlling the bike to any great degree, certainly can’t be getting much ‘feedback’. Your comment "I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative " sums it up for me too ...

Ok so it’s a necessity to go fast on track, but having the bike ‘balanced’ through a combination of brake usage, weight distribution and throttle control has to be the ultimate goal on the vehicle control side of being an ‘advanced’ rider? :smt017

Sure it would take practice to utalise the method to any great extent, but again, it's an ADVANCED method that can be gradually worked on … you need to work on any of the methods taught in IAM to make them ‘second nature’ or got the best from them??? I actually think for aforementioned reasons its a safer method (if done correctly) and therefore surely not to be frowned on at the advanced level as it appears to be? :smt017

I dont know I havent really thought about it that much :D I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get much better feel from the GSXR, so I feel more confident on it. I dont get the same level of feedback / feel from the SV, so I dont feel as confident on the front as I do on the GSXR.

I rememeber when I started riding I scared myself a couple of times on the SV with a handful of front brake so I'm wary of just how fast it stands up and runs straight when you do it. I guess because I've never had that experience on the GSXR ( because I'm a more experienced rider now ) that that negative block about trail braking isnt there.

I suspect I might be doing it though. I also use the bikes for different things and I ride the SV alot more in the wet, rubbish wintery conditions where I tend to ride alot more gently that I do on the GSXR on warm summer days.

I think running the brakes into a turn is imperative in the wet ... it gives you a feel for the grip levels and helps 'dig' the front in and duly transfer weight to the rear when you ease off ...

If you didn't trail the brakes in the wet you would be pootling/wobbling about surely?!?!? I can’t imagine NOT doing it …

Like I said, I tried today and it was horrible and I don’t feel in control!! :cry:

[Blue_SV650S]

Oh and just to make it clear, I am not saying to be an advanced road rider you need to be to ride like Rossi at every turn and/or be the last of the late late brakers (there is no need to do that unless you are riding like a t1t :reaper: :smt081), but at least running the brakes into a turn a bit is pretty fundamental surely? :smt017

[fizzwheel]

I dunno, I'm definately not that brilliant a wet rider, I tend to ride in the wet in a more traditional way, brake, speed set, obs done and line set and then I'm on a constant throttle to the apex and then winding the throttle on once I'm passsed the apex.

I ride a lot harder in the dry hence why I'm trailing the brakes sometimes, I tend to do it when I'm on a bit of road I know well. If I'm on an unfamiliar road then I dont do it and ride in the brake in a straight line and I find a bit of a slower corner entry speed means I feel safer and I dont have those sphinchter tightening moments if I judge the road wrongly.

I think trailing the brakes is a useful skill though its definately helped me a few times get round corners I think.

I dont also tend to analyse what I'm doing and why anymore I just ride how it feels natural to do so, sometimes I trial sometimes I dont. Is it fundamental to riding, I dont know. I was always told it was a bad thing to do. But I was quite surprised when one day I was out and I did it and I didnt end up in heap. The one thing I've always tried to do and I dont always get it right was to be gentle with the controls, I really noticed that the bike felt better if I squeezed rather than grabbed the brakes to apply them and I was gentle when letting them off again, as mentioned above it helps keep the bike settled doesnt it.

You've got me thinking about my riding and braking now...

[the white rabbit]

What Blue, Fizz and Weaselz says makes perfect sense to me and its the way I ride on the GS. However, I kind of started doing it by accident, in part as the GS was giveing me (too much) confidence. However, subsequently I found the same thing works a treat on a bike with a normal setup, and like Blue says above I pretty much couldnt imagine not trailing in and then easing in corner.

I wonder though, if one HAS to put a little on in corner, then if you are already trailing a little, i.e. easing off the trail, would easing a bit on be less likely to unsettle the bike than if you were completely off the brakes and had to put on to the same degree??

[fizzwheel]

I wonder though, if one HAS to put a little on in corner, then if you are already trailing a little, i.e. easing off the trail, would easing a bit on be less likely to unsettle the bike than if you were completely off the brakes and had to put on to the same degree??

I think it probably would, as you'd already have the suspension compressed and the bike settled on its springs, so a little more brake pressure is only going to change that a little.

Whereas a brake application mid bend when the forks are doing their own thing is going to compress and unsettle the forks alot more than it would do if you had the brakes already applied

IMHO.

[Blue_SV650S]

I dunno, I'm definately not that brilliant a wet rider, I tend to ride in the wet in a more traditional way, brake, speed set, obs done and line set and then I'm on a constant throttle to the apex and then winding the throttle on once I'm passsed the apex. - I tend to ride slower in the wet obviously, but I don't pu55y about (I blame racing in the wet - it makes you a bit of a 'case in the wet!! :smt101 :D) ... Anyway, I actually brake pretty hard on the front still before a conrer and purposely slide the rear about, not only is it a giggle, but sliding the rear about lets you know how much grip there will be for the front/tipping in ... if when overemphasizing the rear (in a more upright position - but probably not in the vertical) it skids out real easy, I then keep the front on harder/for longer before tipping in and then take the corner slower ... if there appears to be reasonable grip, I go in harder and tip in sooner ... or perhaps use the information as input to likely grip at the next corner ... its just my way of judging how greasy a corner is likely to be ... you kinda get the feel for rear slippage relates to front grippage over time ... especially if you ride the same road day-in day-out (hard to explain, but what was initially 'fun' became a useful tool in judging grip levels available). :thumright:

I think trailing the brakes is a useful skill though its definately helped me a few times get round corners I think. - Indeed!

Is it fundamental to riding, I dont know. - Fundamental to riding, or even riding safely, I'd say no, to going fast/making maximum progress and being a truly - by my definition - advanced rider ... I'd say YES!!

You've got me thinking about my riding and braking now... - Reading the book got me thinking about mine!! ;) - I obviously break one of the commandments set down in this book, so I must be doing it wrong!! :oops:

[northwind]

I'm reeeeeealy bad for braking into corners, I sort of trained myself out of comfort braking and accidentally into trail braking. I don't consider it smart on the road though, really, but it feels really unnatural for me not to do it now when I'm in a fast mood, and I end up entering corners really slowly.

BUT! If you never ever brake in a corner, if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to brake in a corner, it will be the first time you ever do it and so it's far more likely that you'll crash. So I reckon a policy of total avoidance could rob you of skills that could make the difference between crashing and not crashing.

[Blue_SV650S]

BUT! If you never ever brake in a corner, if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to brake in a corner, it will be the first time you ever do it and so it's far more likely that you'll crash. So I reckon a policy of total avoidance could rob you of skills that could make the difference between crashing and not crashing.

I'd say it is worse than that ... if you are already 'partially loaded' in a corner and then need a bit more (for whatever reason) then the bike is already in the posture,no problem - however grabbing a bit from nowhere (suspension/weight distribution wise) in a turn has to be worse right? :smt017

[northwind]

Haven't a clue :smt101 (I like this smiley though)

[the white rabbit]

I'd say it is worse than that ... if you are already 'partially loaded' in a corner and then need a bit more (for whatever reason) then the bike is already in the posture,no problem - however grabbing a bit from nowhere (suspension/weight distribution wise) in a turn has to be worse right? :smt017

Thats what I reckon. :smt101

[Ceri JC]

BUT! If you never ever brake in a corner, if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to brake in a corner, it will be the first time you ever do it and so it's far more likely that you'll crash. So I reckon a policy of total avoidance could rob you of skills that could make the difference between crashing and not crashing.

My view entirely. I am genuinely amazed at how many people claim never to brake in corners. Certainly, it's not something to try and do all the time on normal rides, but as a skill, it's essential. It's one of those things like when people claim, "I never use the back brake, at all". I don't really believe them, I just suspect that actually they do it unconciously, otherwise they'd be crashing all the time?
:confused:

Edit: Oh yes and relying on good obs to be able to say, "I'll never need to brake round a bend." Isn't particularly bright IMO. What about cars pulling out of hidden side junctions on corners you've never ridden etc. vehicle in front (even a long way off) stands up on the brakes on a long sweeping bend etc.? I think you shouldn't plan to be trail braking into bends and should go in at the right speed, but when one of those "no way of seeing that" moments happen, you need to be able to do it.

[ArtyLady]

What about cars pulling out of hidden side junctions on corners you've never ridden etc..

Ideally you will have spotted a road sign in your foward obs (assuming it was there) so hopefull should already be prepared for this scenario.

vehicle in front (even a long way off) stands up on the brakes on a long sweeping bend etc.? I think you shouldn't plan to be trail braking into bends and should go in at the right speed, but when one of those "no way of seeing that" moments happen, you need to be able to do it.

This has happened to me a couple of times - it wasnt a disaster because I was already expecting the unexpected (I do tend to err well on the side of caution most of the time!) I automatically throttled off and stood the bike up as much as possible before braking. (had brown trouser moment though!:smt103)

[Ceri JC]

Ideally you will have spotted a road sign in your foward obs (assuming it was there) so hopefull should already be prepared for this scenario.)

I've had a 4x4 seemingly pull out from a hedge into my path. There was no sign and the angle of approach to the LH bend meant it wasn't visible (unless your observation allows xray vision :)). Cars coming the other way, so braking on the bend was the only option.

This has happened to me a couple of times - it wasnt a disaster because I was already expecting the unexpected (I do tend to err well on the side of caution most of the time!) I automatically throttled off and stood the bike up as much as possible before braking. (had brown trouser moment though!:smt103)

Thing is, throttling off on an SV is effectively braking, albeit using the back brake. :) If you can't brake round a bend, surely the only way to ride safely is to be able to coast to a stop in the distance you can see to be clear. Even with the SVs engine braking this is a loooooong way at 60mph, compared to how quickly you can stop when braking round a bend without highsiding it. I wonder if those who can't brake round bends really do leave adequate stopping distance to deal with this?

Out of interest, is this such a controversial subject because people who can't brake round bends nearly crash into the back of those who can? Twice I've had other bikers confront me about this (and neither time was comfort braking- it was neccessary) and they don't seem to feel the usual rule of "you rear end someone, your fault" applies when going round bends for some reason.

[kwak zzr]

the expensive lesson i learned braking into corners was running the front tyre with too much pressure in (silly immature mistake i know), i normally ride hard on the front relying on the front tyre for maximum grip, personally i always brake in corners and was surprised how well my sv650s coped with it.

[Dave The Rave]

- purposely slide the rear about, not only is it a giggle, but sliding the rear about lets you know how much grip there will be for the front/tipping in ...

They don't last that long your tires do they? ;)

[Blue_SV650S]

They don't last that long your tires do they? ;)

Its not like I don't do it in the dry :oops: but I was specifically talking about in the wet there ... you don't get much 'wear' slipping a bit in the wet as you are sliding on a layer of water/mud/grime! ;)

Oh and remember to get the back end out/skidding a bit it doesn't have to be locked up, just slower than road speed ...

Anyway back to main topic ...

If braking in a straight line is the only accepted method, it is clear to me that I would never pass an IAM test. ... I also know now that I have no interest in doing it as I don't believe in half what I read (I had been flirting with the idea, hence reading the book in the first place).

I can see some flaws in the method (setting speed before turning in), but I think it probably is the 'safest' ... why?? coz if you have set your seed before every turn, you would have to be going so dog slow at corner entry that the end of the world could be nigh round the bend and you would stop in time!! :D .. Couples with rule 2 (or whatever) then if it is a blind bend with trees and hedges (like I tend to ride), you have zero forward observation, therefore would only be able to do 10mph anyway ... safe? ... sure ... fun??? ... fast??!!? I can't see that!!!!! :grin::grin::grin:

I am not saying that it isn't a well established method, or that MY method is better/the IAM way is wrong, just I personally choose NOT to want to ride that way!

[Stig]

I am sure, somewhere in the back of my mind, that tyre wear is increased in wet weather riding.

[yorkie_chris]

How come they say wet miles dont count when scrubbing in new tyres?

[Draper]

well firstly i have given abit of rear brake when i have clearly slightly miss-judged a corner, only a light touch though, and never felt not in control or whatever

also on my cbt i was advised that if you are going to brake in corner, use the rear brake, people are saying grabbing the brakes? are these handfuls referring to the front brake? and not rear?

[sinbad]

I am sure, somewhere in the back of my mind, that tyre wear is increased in wet weather riding.

?

I think perhaps the back of your mind is due a clear out. :)

[Blue_SV650S]

also on my cbt i was advised that if you are going to brake in corner, use the rear brake, people are saying grabbing the brakes? are these handfuls referring to the front brake? and not rear?

I think we are referring to either/both yes ...

A bit of rear is gonna help for a bit of mid-turn correction, but if you properly need to slow down, you are gonna need some front ...

[Draper]

i tired abit of front the other day

wobbler is the word :|

[Blue_SV650S]

i tired abit of front the other day

wobbler is the word :|

What mid turn or running it into the turn? .. the former is quite likely to upset the bike, the latter isn't (unless you are doing something wrong).

[Draper]

no mid turn, i took my eyes of the road for a second, cant really remember what happened, but a rider error anyway

had to give it a little squeeze on the brakes, wobbled abit, stayed upright

pay more attention next time

[21QUEST]

I brake when I want, where I want and how I need....that's advance technique and not the "ooh, never touch the brakes" rubbish........IMHO

Leant over at say a round about and someone pulls out on me, I shut the throttle if need(goal is to have neutral throttle really) and I start braking as I reduce lean angle.

Most people who come off whilst braking leant over, have done so because they have panicked, haven't read the road surface properly and so have applied too much braking for that particular surface or plain can't brake smoothly enough/properly.


Ben

[yorkie_chris]

Most people who come off whilst braking leant over, have done so because they have panicked, haven't read the road surface properly and so have applied too much braking for that particular surface

Like when I came off my 125, "oh f###, forgot that speed bump" while on the shiny tar seal stuff... down you go. Lack of experience. Got me a smashed up wrist.

[Ceri JC]

I can see some flaws in the method (setting speed before turning in), but I think it probably is the 'safest' ... why?? coz if you have set your seed before every turn, you would have to be going so dog slow at corner entry that the end of the world could be nigh round the bend and you would stop in time!! :D .. Couples with rule 2 (or whatever) then if it is a blind bend with trees and hedges (like I tend to ride), you have zero forward observation, therefore would only be able to do 10mph anyway ... safe? ... sure ... fun??? ... fast??!!? I can't see that!!!!! :grin::grin::grin:

I am not saying that it isn't a well established method, or that MY method is better/the IAM way is wrong, just I personally choose NOT to want to ride that way!

I don't know if it was the official IAM POV, or just what I was taught, but I was always told to set your corner speed to one where you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. This distance can of course be reduced the more you are capable of braking around bends. So, if you can brake round bends, you can go in faster. :)

If you're thinking about doing IAM, why not go along on a taster observed ride and make up you're own mind if they can improve your riding at all? I didn't agree with everything they said (and I still don't now), but there was enough that I did learn that was useful that I have retained. You can always discard the "no toes on the pegs, no 2 finger braking" nonsense once you've passed. :D

I know you're a lot more experienced a rider than me, but I know people who've been riding 20-30 years before doing IAM and still have gotten loads out of it.

[Blue_SV650S]

...

I think that is my problem, although willing to accept there are always things to learn observation etc wise, I am too set in my old ways to change my riding style side of things … coupled with the self belief that I fundamentally don’t think my riding style is detrimental to safety per-say (how is 2 finger braking and riding on toes bad safety wise?) ... so unwilling to change anyway!! :mad: To me, what is the point artificially blagging it for a test? – this is suppose to be a way of riding you are sighing up to, not a hoop to get you on the road (or whatever)) - I do the test, I intend to ride like that forever more ... not cherry pick bits ... else it is meaningless!

Ok, so lets face it, we already know I am never going to pass an IAM test as I ride on my toes (at times) I ALWAYS brake 2 fingers (didn't realise they were two more commandments that I was also breaking) ... I tend to brake into corners … and these are just the riding techniques we have identified … there are probably many more riding STYLE commandments I break …

So however good my observation, road positioning etc may or may not turn out to be in their eyes, I’d still fail as I have broken so many of the other commandments!!! :cry:

[Ceri JC]

Ok, so lets face it, we already know I am never going to pass an IAM test as I ride on my toes (at times) I ALWAYS brake 2 fingers (didn't realise they were two more commandments that I was also breaking) ... I tend to brake into corners … and these are just the riding techniques we have identified … there are probably many more riding STYLE commandments I break …


My POV entirely. 2 finger braking and riding on toes are stylistic, not an inherent part of safe riding. Both have + and - points and I don't think there's a "right answer" with regard to which one you should do. I suspect the argument about 4 finger braking is probably a hangover from the days when brakes were less good and you really needed to pull hard on them to get the brakes on hard. If you're ridding modern machinery and need more than 2 fingers, you're either weedy or need to bleed your brakes IMO. Similarly, if the lever comes right back to the bar and traps the other two fingers, you need to bleed your brakes, or you're suffering from brake fade (which IAM style riding, you shouldn't be). Personally, the added safety benefits of being able to maintain throttle control whilst braking outweigh any negative aspects. I don't do 2 finger braking to emulate my racetrack heroes (I don't have any; I don't give 2 hoots about racing), I do it because it improves my machine control.

Similarly, I find riding toes on the pegs more comfortable on the SV when going reasonably briskly, so it reduces fatigue, not to mention the improvements in feedback from the pegs letting you know what the bike is doing. I ride covering the back brake when in 30s, but not out on NSLs. Besides, on the SV throttleing off is enough to commence the shift of weight to the front of the bike before you start braking properly and this takes long enough that I can move my toes a couple of inches.

I passed my IAM test in spite of doing both these (despite trying to change my habits, just till I'd past the test, they are already too deeply ingrained in my riding style and I see little reason to change them, until someone can give me a proper reason to), although he did mention both of them. Now I've passed, I don't make any effort to "undo" what I see as a perfectly safe riding style.

[sinbad]

I must say I'm staggered that IAM doesn't approve of two-fingered braking. Why, just why? What is the alternative that they recommend? It surely can't be as simple, convenient, efficient and easy as 2 fingers. Amazing.

[Blue_SV650S]

I must say I'm staggered that IAM doesn't approve of two-fingered braking. Why, just why? What is the alternative that they recommend? It surely can't be as simple, convenient, efficient and easy as 2 fingers. Amazing.

Indeed, I feel that is even more fundamental and/or unsubstantiated than running the brakes into a turn thing ...

I know I'll get flamed for this, but if these methods are so seemingly debased, or at least well outdated, one has to question it as a whole?!?! :confused:

[Ceri JC]

I must say I'm staggered that IAM doesn't approve of two-fingered braking. Why, just why? What is the alternative that they recommend? It surely can't be as simple, convenient, efficient and easy as 2 fingers. Amazing.

The alternative they recommend is 4 fingers. Would any of our police riders care to explain why this is the case (I believe IAM is based on police roadcraft)? Personally, I only use 4 fingers when emergency stopping from high speeds (90+).

[northwind]

Was the 2-fingers-bad, 4-fingers-good rule perhaps written 10 years ago when you couldn't stop a pushbike with 2 fingers?

[Ceri JC]

Was the 2-fingers-bad, 4-fingers-good rule perhaps written 10 years ago when you couldn't stop a pushbike with 2 fingers?

Yes. Amusingly the first thing that sprang to mind when I was told off for 2 finger braking was, "this is like cycling proficiency all over again!"

I remember being taught 4 finger braking on my DAS, the grounds being that under hard braking the lever could come back to the bar and your other fingers would stop you from braking as hard (as well as potentially crushing your fingers).

As an aside, I feel quite strongly about IAM's stance on this sort of thing because I feel it's petty and puts a lot of people off. It's the sportbike riding weekend warriors who dream of being Rossi that you want to sign up to IAM as they are most likely to off themselves through poor riding (not suggesting anyone in this thread). The Beemer/Pan brigade would already ride reasonably sensibly (if not particularly quickly). If IAM is primarily about safety, it needs to encourage the former sort of rider and being picky about things like 2 finger braking isn't the way to do it.

[Stig]

I can't do 4 finger braking. Little pinkie doesn't open enough. Hell, before the end of the year, there won't even be a little pinkie on the right. So there.

[the white rabbit]

At Offroad Skills we were taught exactly what you would expect, 2 fingers.

We were actually taught two fingers over all the time as obviously things are a little different and it also stops you grabbing the throttle and winding it back when you get jerked about, so to speak.

Which gets me to thinking I think I ride two fingers covering the brakes/clutch most of the time.

[chunkytfg]

Reading a ‘roadcraft’ type book at the weekend, in the ADVANCED RIDING section it said that one should only ever brake in a straight line, brakes should only be on/applied mid-corner if there is a sudden need to …

This is an ADVANCED technique? :smt017


I havent read all 6 pages but which part of the technique are you unsure of?

Is it to do with the fact that you and i both know you can brake mid corner or that you're questioning weather what they are saying is advanced rather than just common sense?

ME personally i always try and brake in a straight line on the road. TO find myself in a position where i need to brake whilst tipping into the corner means i've messed up that corner. However knowing how much i can brake while leaning the bike over is no bad thing and and should really be something everyone should have at least the simplest understanding of imo.

Edit- Having now read the whole thread I think a vital part of the IAM's intention is missing.

Riding as per the IAM way is not about going as quick as possible, which we have all agreed trail braking to an apex and powering from that point on will assist, it's about making the pace at which you are going as safe as posssible in a fail safe method hence things like the 4 finger braking and no toes on the pegs. Yes 2 finger braking might be better for us in respect of feel but what happens should the lever inherit extra tavel or the adjuster unwinds and brings the lever back to the bar. You would have to release the brakes and the re-apply after moving your other 2 fingers thus increasing the chance of whatever your braking for coming up and causing a problem. Same applies to the toes on pegs thing, what if you need to apply the rear brake suddenly? you would have to move your foot first which could take up vital yards which could be the difference between hitting the car or not.

Do you see what i'm saying. By learning to treat every obstacle in a set manner time and time again you can be sure to be as safe as possible. The fact the IAM teaches effectively quick riding is nothing more than a by product of the methods you learnt to make you safe.

I'd agree with the comments that some of the IAM 'methods' are outdated but in theory they all stand water hence they havent got rid of them it's just that the likelyhood of the reason them still being in place is unlikely to happen.