View Full Version : Counter counter steering - does it exist?
Hi, sometimes I've managed to brake hard in a corner, and had to steer the opposite way to normal, ie counter counter steer. The front wheel has always felt on the limit of grip and i've been fighting to keep the bike lent over. Total bollox?:smt017
Idleater
15-10-07, 09:01 AM
and i've been fighting to keep the bike lent over.
If you are on the front brake while turning, the bike will be trying to stand up. Then if you release the brake the front will drop over again.
could this explain it?
plowsie
15-10-07, 09:05 AM
Use the rear in a corner and you can tend to keep it at same lean, dont hit it too hard though as you will be goin further and further and further and doh!
Only use this if im hot in a corner mind.
DONT DO IT!!! You'' upset the space time continum and go back to 1955!
Cranking on the front barke in mid corner is baaaad. As siad the bike will sit up and want to go straight. Unless youre very heavy and can still lean the bike round!
That's what I am saying, I am pushing on the bars the other way, ie, push right bar forward to go left, to keep the bike cranked over.
Doesn't happen often mind....
That's what I am saying, I am pushing on the bars the other way, ie, push right bar forward to go left, to keep the bike cranked over.
Doesn't happen often mind....
Push right bar forward to go left...
That's counter steering. Not "counter-counter steering."
Yes I do it all the time, I lean on rights, and counter steer on lefts.
muffles
15-10-07, 09:48 AM
Push right bar forward to go left...
That's counter steering. Not "counter-counter steering."
Wouldn't counter steering be pushing on the left bar (turning it to the right) to go left? It's quite confusing the way it's said though! :lol:
Wouldn't counter steering be pushing on the left bar (turning it to the right) to go left? It's quite confusing the way it's said though! :lol:
Nah, counter-steering is pulling on the right bar to go left. :lol: ;)
(I stand corrected :oops:)
plowsie
15-10-07, 09:55 AM
Can you imagine an onlooker trying to picture and run the motions through their head, i'm doin knots in my small brain!
Can you imagine an onlooker trying to picture and run the motions through their head, i'm doin knots in my small brain!
Good idea plowsie, why don't you draw them a picture! :lol:
muffles
15-10-07, 09:59 AM
Just pull on the left & right bars at the same time, whilst adjusting your left mirror with your right hand, tap your heel plates twice, and as Viney says you'll go back to 1955...
:lol:
plowsie
15-10-07, 10:05 AM
As you wish .....
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/plowsie/untitledv.jpg
mister c
15-10-07, 01:34 PM
Good ole Wikipedia.
Countersteering is the method whereby a motorcycle is turned when operating at speeds that provide gyroscopic stability. The term "countersteer" refers the the action of turning the steering mechanism in the opposite direction of the intended turning direction to increase the acuity of the intended turn. For example, while performing a RIGHT hand turn, at lean, the rider could turn the steering mechism to the LEFT and it would result in the motorcycle actually turning more sharply to the RIGHT.
Anyone who has turned a motorcycle at anything above idle speed has used countersteering - you just don't realize you're doing it.
By understanding what countersteering is and how it works, any rider can make more controlled turns, steer away from hazards, and ride with less fatique.
Steps
Position the palm of your hand that is on the side of the direction of the turn, on the handlebar.
Enter a turn at speed.
Gently, increase pressure from your palm on the handlebar pushing further (as if to turn the bike in the opposite direction of your intended turn).
The bike will begin to lean at a greater angle with the increase in pressure.
Tips
Begin practice of this (and any other new motorcycle skill) in an empty parking lot or - even better - during a Motorcycle Safety Course.
Warnings
Do not over-apply pressure (GENTLE means GENTLE) or you will crash.
Don't use any new skill on the road until you are completely comfortable with it in a controlled environment.
Do not over-apply pressure (GENTLE means GENTLE) or you will crash.
:smt081
yorkie_chris
15-10-07, 09:00 PM
#waits for the debate about gyroscopic precession vs newton#
As for the braking standing the bike up, you don't need to be very heavy to keep it leant down, you could just counter steer into it a little more if you trust the tyres.
northwind
15-10-07, 09:08 PM
While trying to work out what was going on in this thread, I fell off my seat.
#waits for the debate about gyroscopic precession vs newton#
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225812.400-like-falling-off.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325892.700-like-falling-off.html
yorkie_chris
15-10-07, 09:12 PM
#runs for cover#
johnnyrod
18-10-07, 11:46 AM
Gyroscopic forces have nothing to do with countersteering, but lots to do with the front end in general. Countersteering is simply what Thor has seen, push the bars left and the bike falls right. Most of the other stuff around the steering, except when you're wheelying, depends a lot on the way the steering geometry bascially steers itself unless you have some input.
CB1ROCKET
18-10-07, 12:19 PM
There seems to be a lot of confusion here.
If you make a right turning, apply gentle forward pressure on the RIGHT handlebar.
Same for making a left turning, then you apply gentle FORWARD pressure on the left handlebar.
If you put pressure to turn right on pushing the left handle bar forward - you are asking for trouble........
:riding: < well thats how I ride, and works for me
Good ole Wikipedia.
Countersteering is the method whereby a motorcycle is turned when operating at speeds that provide gyroscopic stability. The term "countersteer" refers the the action of turning the steering mechanism in the opposite direction of the intended turning direction to increase the acuity of the intended turn. For example, while performing a RIGHT hand turn, at lean, the rider could turn the steering mechism to the LEFT and it would result in the motorcycle actually turning more sharply to the RIGHT.
Anyone who has turned a motorcycle at anything above idle speed has used countersteering - you just don't realize you're doing it.
By understanding what countersteering is and how it works, any rider can make more controlled turns, steer away from hazards, and ride with less fatique.
Steps
Position the palm of your hand that is on the side of the direction of the turn, on the handlebar.
Enter a turn at speed.
Gently, increase pressure from your palm on the handlebar pushing further (as if to turn the bike in the opposite direction of your intended turn).
The bike will begin to lean at a greater angle with the increase in pressure.
Tips
Begin practice of this (and any other new motorcycle skill) in an empty parking lot or - even better - during a Motorcycle Safety Course.
Warnings
Do not over-apply pressure (GENTLE means GENTLE) or you will crash.
Don't use any new skill on the road until you are completely comfortable with it in a controlled environment.
have been riding for 25 yrs and everything above is true,try it.
Push with left hand(turnright) and you will drop to the left and vice versa
-Ralph-
18-10-07, 09:34 PM
Wheyhey, "counter counter" steer caused some confusion.
1955 - Do you need to put plutonium somewhere or can you get the 1.21 gigawatts from a lightning strike, doc?
Thor - I know what you mean, you've panic braked in a corner (front), the bike starts to stand up, so you've had to counter steer harder and lean in more to force the bike back down.
No it's not bollox (but "counter counter" is), it will work, but it upsets the bike like buggery and you've seriously misjudged the corner speed if you need to do it 'cos the back brake won't drag enough speed off. In the dry you can usually get away with it, in the wet you'll probably crash. It's always been a brown trousers moment for me. Better just to lean in further, squeeze the throttle a tiny bit harder and hope you get round.
toonyank
18-10-07, 10:21 PM
Wouldn't counter steering be pushing on the left bar (turning it to the right) to go left? It's quite confusing the way it's said though! :lol:
I think in other words, counter-counter steering is well... steering :geek:
SVGrandad
18-10-07, 10:45 PM
Seems everyone is missing something. Once you have countersteered to start to lean the bike over, you need to steer the other way before you go horizontal.
yorkie_chris
18-10-07, 10:52 PM
No you don't.
Applying countersteer to bring the bike back up is great to flick it from side to side, but as I understand it a moving bike is a self correcting system, so will stand itself back up if no steering is applied.
jonboy99
18-10-07, 11:43 PM
Of course it does, this is the only way a shaft drive motorcycle can go around a corner.
if it is that confusing ,then just stick a steering wheel on the front,and ditch the bars.
problem sorted
Pedrosa
20-10-07, 09:58 AM
I spent the first...too many years of riding with no idea of the concept of counter steering at all. The only conscious thing I ever did was weight shift and lean the bike in. It always served me well and I have tended to not ride at a snail's pace.
The past couple of years I was using "active" counter steering and it worked ok, but in truth on reflection no better than my old tried and tested method. I now only use "active" counter steer if I need to change line mid bend.
Something I have NEVER done apart from the last 3 months before I sold the Ducati was to use a pushing action through the foot pegs. I have found THIS to be an excellent method along with my long used lean in technique. It also allows for quick straghtening up when you shift the force through the foot peg which is on the outside of the bend,(if you follow)
So to conclude, based on my own experience and the laws of physics.....counter steering is going on anyway otherwise the bike would never negotiate any corner, applying it more consciously simply quickens the action of the bike turning in.
I really think way too many people get bogged down with this subject as my ignorance served me rather well for many years.:rolleyes:
yorkie_chris
20-10-07, 05:13 PM
Of course it does, this is the only way a shaft drive motorcycle can go around a corner.
Oh dear.
Explain how a shaftie is steered completely the opposite way to a normal motorcycle despite having exactly the same mechanics of motion.
At neutral power, I reckon a shaft driven bike will behave exactly the same as chain, just with extra stability in the horizontal axis (ie front end coming up or vv) due to the extra gyroscope of the shaft spinning in that direction.
johnnyrod
22-10-07, 11:17 AM
SV grandad - you're right, the countersteering makes the bike fall over, you have to stop it falling at soe point though or it'll hit the deck. The front end does some of this itself, btu it still needs some input.
The only real effect of a shaftie on cornering is as yorkie chris points out, you've added another gyroscope, otherwise the front end does just the same thing as chain bikes.
And yep to Pedrosa, you countersteer all the time, but sometimes you mean to do it.
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.