Menezes health and safety hearing

[MiniMatt]

Sorry for bringing this one up again. It's daft that it could come down to a health and safety hearing as the last chance to actually find out who screwed up, but that's the way I guess. Anyway, reading on the news http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7045122.stm about the hollow points used (which isn't actually news, it has been out a long time) and the firearms specialist called to give testimony detailed the training regime - "told the court officers were required to achieve 70% accuracy with their shooting and underwent two periods of four full days' training every year".

Now, the same specialist also detailed how a headshot would be the "only way to be sure" in explaining the targeting to the head. This bit is important. Eleven shots were fired. 7 hit his head, 1 hit his shoulder, 3 missed. So, the shot to the shoulder - does that count as a miss? Because if it does, they only acheived 63.6% accuracy, at near as damn it point blank range, against a restrained target. Even if we count the shoulder as a hit, they only managed 72.7% accuracy.

So what happens if you can maintain required accuracy in training but not out in the field? Well, you get promoted it seems...

Sorry for bringing this one up again, it's a subject close to my heart.

PS. Just so we don't go over old arguments again, some FACTS right from the off. I stand by these FACTS 100% and can provide links to MULTIPLE OFFICIAL sources and inquiries. They are, FACTS.
1. He did not run vault barriers etc. He walked into the tube station, picked up a free paper, used his oyster card to pay the fare and walked through the barriers and went down the escalator at normal pace. On arriving at the platform he ran across the platform to the newly arrived train. He got on and sat down.
2. He was not wearing "bulky clothing, suspiciously so for warm weather", he was wearing a denim jacket.
3. He did not disobey an instruction from the police. In both official enquiries so far at neither one did the Police state that they gave any indication of who they were or what they wanted before he was shot. The only confirmed shouting of "Police!" occured after at least one shot was fired.

[Kinvig]

This bit is important. Eleven shots were fired. 7 hit his head, 1 hit his shoulder, 3 missed. So, the shot to the shoulder - does that count as a miss? Because if it does, they only acheived 63.6% accuracy, at near as damn it point blank range, against a restrained target. Even if we count the shoulder as a hit, they only managed 72.7% accuracy.

So what happens if you can maintain required accuracy in training but not out in the field? Well, you get promoted it seems...

Sorry for bringing this one up again, it's a subject close to my heart.

PS. Just so we don't go over old arguments again, some FACTS right from the off. I stand by these FACTS 100% and can provide links to MULTIPLE OFFICIAL sources and inquiries. They are, FACTS.
1. He did not run vault barriers etc. He walked into the tube station, picked up a free paper, used his oyster card to pay the fare and walked through the barriers and went down the escalator at normal pace. On arriving at the platform he ran across the platform to the newly arrived train. He got on and sat down.
2. He was not wearing "bulky clothing, suspiciously so for warm weather", he was wearing a denim jacket.
3. He did not disobey an instruction from the police. In both official enquiries so far at neither one did the Police state that they gave any indication of who they were or what they wanted before he was shot. The only confirmed shouting of "Police!" occured after at least one shot was fired.


maybe he had no head left after 7 shots were fired - the other 3 went through an empty void?

[Ruffy]

So what happens if you can maintain required accuracy in training but not out in the field?

Thankfully, most firearms officers will never find out just how "good" they are in the field. They don't want to, either. That is something we should be very grateful for in the UK.

I'm pretty certain that there was a terrible mistake here. Personally, though, I think the lessons will be learned by those involved and I don't think that public exposure is necessarily a good thing.

It's always a shame that innocent people get killed or injured going about their daily business, in whatever circumstances. I am sad to sense that you have suffered with something similar in the past. However, I'm not sure that this is the correct forum for this sort of debate.

(For complete transparency, I am not employed in law enforcement. However, I do have friends and relatives in military, police and other law enforcement jobs, and I probably have a fairly right wing attitude to law & order. My personal bugbear is leniency towards those who put innocents' lives at risk through TWOC 'joyriding' and other extreme, dangerous motoring activity on the road.)

[timwilky]

I am not a cop, never have been. But I used to shoot with quite a few of the lancs/manchester/Mersyside ones. Many of who were their forces firearms instructors.

Standard PAA targets have the score box centred on the chest. You are not trained to take head shots, but to go for the largest area, ie, the chest.

As I understand it, advice (Supposedly from Isreal) was that a chest shot could leave a suicide bomber with sufficient time to explode whatever they were carrying and therefore an instant kill was required, ie remove as much brain as to render the suicide bomber incapable of activating his bomb.

Given the close confines of the train where this is supposed to have occurred, double taps against the smaller target that a head represents, it is not surprising to me that not all shots hit.


Now for the part to upset the PC brigade. This guy was here illegally. He failed to respond to an order. If he had done as he should and gone home when his visa expired he would still be alive. Let this be a lesson to all. You break the law, there is a chance that extreme force may be used against you.

[The Basket]

I have been firerm trained and find this whole thing amazing.

Firing that number of shots in a public place is unacceptable.

Firing a weapon without cast iron threat is unacceptable.

Not following any kind of ROE is unacceptable.

I have no problem with pulling the trigger but the shooter must be accountable for every round fired. And I aint seen that here.

[gettin2dizzy]

I work next to a police range. They practice their firing fully automatic... I can't work out why. THey do 4 days training a week - and that's just Gwent police

[MiniMatt]

I am sad to sense that you have suffered with something similar in the past.

No, I better clear this up, thankfully I have no personal experience of this. It's close to my heart as I'm deeply concerned about the climate of fear that has been encouraged over the last few years, I think it is precisely this that leads to nervousness and "itchy trigger fingers" and I see nothing that has really been learnt so as to prevent something like this happening again to anyone.

Now for the part to upset the PC brigade. This guy was here illegally. He failed to respond to an order. If he had done as he should and gone home when his visa expired he would still be alive. Let this be a lesson to all. You break the law, there is a chance that extreme force may be used against you.

Dogs chase sticks :D I can't resist :D That can only be a justification if you're prepared for it to be a justification for the immediate execution of everyone who's owned up to minor infringements in this thread (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=98300). That thread is full of people who've been drunk and disorderly, ****ed up against cop cars, been in posession of controlled substances, etc - ie. far more likely to wind up receiving 11 bullets but none of them did. My point is that if every one of those minor infringements resulted in a death people wouldn't be trotting out the "you break the law, you pay the price" line; as such if the argument is not valid when applied to all such cases then it's not valid when applied to one individual case.

[The Basket]

I work next to a police range. They practice their firing fully automatic... I can't work out why. THey do 4 days training a week - and that's just Gwent police
Not sure if the Police use full auto but there is plenty of firearms on the streets and guy who shoots first wins.

[G]

I dont know the full story but they had inteligence that there were further bomber..........which turned out to be true as they attempted and failed a couple of week after this killing.

There was a risk that this guy was a bomber as inteligence said so.

ONE life taken or 20+ taken if he turned out to be a bomber.

Although it turned out he wasnt a bomber had it been the other way around and they had not taken the shot yet he was a bomber, I gaurantee the news stories would have been intirely different,

-POLICE FAIL TO STOP BOMBER
-INTELIGENCE SAID HE WAS BOMBER, YET THEY LET HIM WALK ONTO THE UNDERGROUD
-ETC ETC ETC

Its a loose/loose situation for the goverment/police nowdays, people will literally moan and pick faults with everything they do. People will be for and against whatever they do.

I personally think it was a justified killing, sadly with an unfortunate ending.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I dont know the full story but they had inteligence that there were further bomber..........which turned out to be true as they attempted and failed a couple of week after this killing.

There was a risk that this guy was a bomber as inteligence said so.

ONE life taken or 20+ taken if he turned out to be a bomber.

Although it turned out he wasnt a bomber had it been the other way around and they had not taken the shot yet he was a bomber, I gaurantee the news stories would have been intirely different,

-POLICE FAIL TO STOP BOMBER
-INTELIGENCE SAID HE WAS BOMBER, YET THEY LET HIM WALK ONTO THE UNDERGROUD
-ETC ETC ETC

Its a loose/loose situation for the goverment/police nowdays, people will literally moan and pick faults with everything they do. People will be for and against whatever they do.

I personally think it was a justified killing, sadly with an unfortunate ending.

While I'd agree with your sentiment I don't think it's applicable to this situation.

The police were following him along time before he got anywhere near the tube, so if he was a bomber they let him onto the tube anyway. In the end, they blew the brains out of someone who they thought was innocent, or they let a suspected bomber get onto the tube. Either way the police displayed monumental incompetance and need to be disciplined for it.

[gettin2dizzy]

Not wanting to be one for conspriacies (hehe whatever ;)) go to www.prisonplanet.com (http://www.prisonplanet.com) there's alot more to this story than you imagine that doesn't get reported.

[G]

While I'd agree with your sentiment I don't think it's applicable to this situation.

The police were following him along time before he got anywhere near the tube. So they blew the brains out of someone who they thought was innocent, or they let a suspected bomber get onto the tube. Either way the police displayed monumental incompetance and need to be disciplined for it.

Yeah when you consider it that way I agree with that.

[Ceri JC]

I work next to a police range. They practice their firing fully automatic... I can't work out why. THey do 4 days training a week - and that's just Gwent police

Gwent police have a firearms division? I didn't even realise they had police. I thought they just had ***ts in police uniforms that operated scamera vans? :D

[gettin2dizzy]

Gwent police have a firearms division? I didn't even realise they had police. I thought they just had ***ts in police uniforms that operated scamera vans? :D

That's just childish..










:D

[Pedrosa]

The fact that the guy was in the UK illegally should never be entered as any kind of justification for what happened here.

As FS mentioned, the guy was followed from the house where the Police knew a terrorist lived. They observed him leaving the property. Why oh why did they simply not aprehend him as he came out of the property as opposed to obliterating him in a train carriage full of other innocent passengers? Surely making their presence known to him out in a street would have been a much better percentage option? They were staking out the house, so to place officers in suitable positions to avoid him escaping, surely would have been a simple matter.

Their actions stink of dreadfull comunication,observation skills and a high degree of lynch mob mentality for supposedly highly trained professionals.

[Spiderman]

Now for the part to upset the PC brigade. This guy was here illegally. He failed to respond to an order. If he had done as he should and gone home when his visa expired he would still be alive. Let this be a lesson to all. You break the law, there is a chance that extreme force may be used against you.

OK, this myth needs to be squashed also. His original 6 month visa had expired......HOWEVER he had applied for and been granted a work permit while his application for an extended visa was being deal with.
I wish you attitude of expecting extreme force to be used against you if you are a criminal was one that criminals also had. Sadly its the innocent public who time and time again get the dirty end of this stick while real criminals get away with street robberies left and right.

Not wanting to be one for conspriacies (hehe whatever ;)) go to www.prisonplanet.com (http://www.prisonplanet.com) there's alot more to this story than you imagine that doesn't get reported.

Great site, i read it a bit from time to time. Please can i have a link for JCDM as i cant seem to find it on there myself.


Their actions stink of dreadfull comunication,observation skills and a high degree of lynch mob mentality for supposedly highly trained professionals.

I dont actualy blame the guys who pulled the triggers. The did what they THOUGHT had to be done. The senior officers who gave the orders in this situation need to face criminal prosecution and face jail time for their actions tho.

Even the guy who first jumped on Jean Charles didnt expect the armed response to be behind him let alone fire at the target. Thats the evidence he has given recently. Furthermore he himself was dragged off the train by another armed cop who leveld his MP5 at the guys chest and held him against a wall while the guy tried to explain that he too was police.

Criminal lack of respect for human life at best, incopteance beyond belief by senior commanders at worst. The senior commanders should be in the dock as they have a lot to answer for.

[gettin2dizzy]

infowars is great too
http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Aug05/260805DeMenezes_cover_up.htm
Another of Alex Jones sites.

[northwind]

The police were following him along time before he got anywhere near the tube, so if he was a bomber they let him onto the tube anyway. In the end, they blew the brains out of someone who they thought was innocent, or they let a suspected bomber get onto the tube.

Bingo... If he'd been a suicide bomber he would have succeeded. When he was killed he'd already passed through several crowded areas and travelled on a bus while being pursued, and when they caught him he would have had more than enough time to detonate any device he'd had on him.

[gettin2dizzy]

He was suspected of wanting to carnival. Not under labour he won't! No fun for anyone! Now get back to work, Gordon wants a new red tie.

[tomjones2]

This whole thing get me really angry. Just because he didnt stop doesn't give anyone the right to blow him away, there were also unmarked officers.

This may be simplistic but someone here has got to take responsiblity, because if the police are to contiune to use guns (which i think they should be able to) someone has got to be responsible for every shot fired. Putting this down as a mistake IMHO is unaccepatable, I know humans make mistakes but when it comes to life a death its not really good enough.

[The Basket]

Menezes was found to have traces of cocaine in his body.

[tomjones2]

Menezes was found to have traces of cocaine in his body.

Not meaning to sound rude but what does this actually mean? I have read your other posts.

If he was high at the time then obviouly is would have an effect, probaly made him look more nervous and irrational. But it was just a trace from a previous night or two (i belive that cocaine stay in the body a short time) it dosent mean very much.

[Pedrosa]

Menezes was found to have traces of cocaine in his body.


Irrelevant your Honour.

[Spiderman]

Menezes was found to have traces of cocaine in his body.

Yeh, i heard this on the news this afternoon and my initial reaction was "so f-ing what???"

And then i realised its just another attempt by the police, in collusion with the media, to demonise him and make him out to have been "some sort of criminal" in the eyes of the narrow minded.

I guarantee that you stop 100 people on the tube in london on the way to work in The City and you'll find most of them have traces of coke in their system. So should they all be pointlessly executed too?

What possible relevance is it to the actions of the police that are in question as to what drugs he did or didnt have traces of in his body? Why bring it up when there are just so many more important points in this case to discuss.

It sickens me that the police even have the nerve to go to court and contest this case. They screwed up plain and simple yet they plead not guilty.

Prosecution: "Did you kill an innocent man?"
Police: "Well yes...but for all the right reasons"
Prosecution: "So you plead guilty"
Police: "Errrm, well no actually. We plead innocent. We took his life but we cant possibly be guilty of doing so"

how pathetic :roll: You make a mistake the be big enough to put your hands up to it and deal with the consequences eh?

[northwind]

Menezes was found to have traces of cocaine in his body.

Just as well they shot him then, god knows what would have happened next.

[phil24_7]

Dogs chase sticks :D I can't resist :D That can only be a justification if you're prepared for it to be a justification for the immediate execution of everyone who's owned up to minor infringements in this thread (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=98300). That thread is full of people who've been drunk and disorderly, ****ed up against cop cars, been in posession of controlled substances, etc - ie. far more likely to wind up receiving 11 bullets but none of them did. My point is that if every one of those minor infringements resulted in a death people wouldn't be trotting out the "you break the law, you pay the price" line; as such if the argument is not valid when applied to all such cases then it's not valid when applied to one individual case.

F@@k. I'm in that thread!!!

*runs to buy a whole variety of protective body armour and hide*

[The Basket]

Irrelevant your Honour.
Just stating a fact. I am amazed that the idea that someone who has and uses cocaine is everyday.

Look...the Met did wrong. Someone deserves to be found at fault. But this is far more. This is about anti police views. And this is a stick to beat them with.

The police role is a thankless one and necessary. And I will support the police in general...although it is obvious in this case, a huge error of judgement happened.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Just stating a fact. I am amazed that the idea that someone who has and uses cocaine is everyday.

Look...the Met did wrong. Someone deserves to be found at fault. But this is far more. This is about anti police views. And this is a stick to beat them with.

The police role is a thankless one and necessary. And I will support the police in general...although it is obvious in this case, a huge error of judgement happened.

I doubt he used it everyday - it stays in the body for weeks iirc. Even if he did it's still irrelevant.

If this was a case of one tragic mistake then perhaps you could sympathise. But it wasn't, it was a catalog of serious blunders by several incompetent officers. And while the Met, astonishingly, refuse to accept the blame I can't exactly see them genuinely trying to improve their procedures.

[Kinvig]

The police role is a thankless one

I woldn't thank someone who shot an unarmed, innocent man on a tube train. If they suspected he was guitly they should have confronted him before he entered the station - it wasn't like he wasn't under surveillence!

[Filipe M.]

The words "Scape goat" spring to mind... :-k

*goes back to hiding in the corner*

[Ceri JC]

Just as well they shot him then, god knows what would have happened next.

You remind me of one of my mates. I suspect you, however, were joking. :D

[The Basket]

I woldn't thank someone who shot an unarmed, innocent man on a tube train. If they suspected he was guitly they should have confronted him before he entered the station - it wasn't like he wasn't under surveillence!

I said it was thankless. Look to fixate on one thing is just not a broad view on the role of policing today.

To be given a weapon and a few rounds is a responsibility that was badly abused here. Shoot first and ask questions later is unacceptable. But to talk in general about the police based on this case is unacceptable.

[Filipe M.]

Shoot first and ask questions later is unacceptable.

Somehow I don't think he was able to answer anything... :p

[Pedrosa]

Oh dear! Now the Police are being accused of manipulating a photograph of the victim in order to have him appear much more like their intended target!

Maybe someone was caught drawing a beard on the pic with a biro? It is beyond belief the amount of co-ordinated denial going on here.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I said it was thankless. Look to fixate on one thing is just not a broad view on the role of policing today.

To be given a weapon and a few rounds is a responsibility that was badly abused here. Shoot first and ask questions later is unacceptable. But to talk in general about the police based on this case is unacceptable.

I don't think it's unacceptable to talk about the police in this manner. It's not that they made (several) mistakes, it's that they're doing everything they can to avoid taking any kind of responsibility, even so far as to try and cover it up.

Until the police are forced to face up to what they've done, the risk is it'll happen again.

[Spiderman]

I said it was thankless. Look to fixate on one thing is just not a broad view on the role of policing today.

To be given a weapon and a few rounds is a responsibility that was badly abused here. Shoot first and ask questions later is unacceptable. But to talk in general about the police based on this case is unacceptable.

I think this is more of a view about ARMED police not police i general.

Lets not bring up the case of the man shot dead for carrying a table leg in a plastic bag or the many other case where officers have shot and killed individuals where alternatives were open to them.

The MEt police have always said we dont operate a "shoot to kill" policy but then countered that with "we dont train our officers to shoot at limbs or anything like that but at the largest available target" so if a man has his back to you and spins around facing you with what you assume is a shotgun you have the right to kill him if you so wish.

Now in many other countries the polcie would take refuge behind vehicles since a shotgun (unless used at very close range) is not going to pentrate a vehicle and cause you any harm.....if the guy fires at you.
Shoot a man while he's spinning round to face you? Thats just wrong. yet those officers were also "let off" with the killing.
its the way armed police deal with situations that needs to be addressed and a lot of how they deal with the situation sees them using rubbish as intelligence.

"hello Mr Cooper, i'm sure that fella has a gun"
"OK, we'll go kill him based on that fact alone"

Not quite how it should be handled is it now?

[gettin2dizzy]

The police in the range next to me had massive rifles yesterday! for Gwent police! I'm used to mp5/pistols being fired, but that's bizarre!

[The Basket]

Ok its the Met police not police in general.I'm sure Fife constabulary are blameless on this one.

Spiderman...getting shot by a shotgun is very bad news. And I wouldn't trust a car door! You aim for the greatest body mass which is the chest or abdomen. The biggest area for the best chance of a hit. If you aim for the legs then the shooter can still fire his weapon.

A shotgun blast at close range is certain death. If an armed policeman is confronted with that possibility then he may get a bit jumpy. Can't blame him. He could be dead in two seconds. I agree that rules of engagement must apply strictly but if the police follow the ROE and kill someone then its a legal killing. If they don't then its an illegal killing.

There are plenty gun and plenty gun crime on our streets. So armed police are going to be a big fixture in policing. BUT remember that the UK is the ONLY policeforce in the developed world that doesne carry guns.

[tomjones2]

Ok its the Met police not police in general.I'm sure Fife constabulary are blameless on this one.

Spiderman...getting shot by a shotgun is very bad news. And I wouldn't trust a car door! You aim for the greatest body mass which is the chest or abdomen. The biggest area for the best chance of a hit. If you aim for the legs then the shooter can still fire his weapon.

A shotgun blast at close range is certain death. If an armed policeman is confronted with that possibility then he may get a bit jumpy. Can't blame him. He could be dead in two seconds. I agree that rules of engagement must apply strictly but if the police follow the ROE and kill someone then its a legal killing. If they don't then its an illegal killing.

There are plenty gun and plenty gun crime on our streets. So armed police are going to be a big fixture in policing. BUT remember that the UK is the ONLY policeforce in the developed world that doesne carry guns.

Basket, you obviouly know at lot more about this sort of stuff as I take it you are a serving firearms officer.

The body armour you guys wear, whats it rated to stop? I have always assumed that it will stop 9mm and shotgun fire even point blank but not rifles, also does it protect your neck and downstairs bit at all?

One thing I am unclear about in this whole case is did the officers on the ground follow the rules of engagment? Or was this a fault of the commanding officer. IMO someone has got to be held accountable for this mans death.

The other thing is are we expecting to much of the firearms officers themselves? I have always seen them as kind of SAS types because you dont see then very often and you sort of expect that they are trained to an almost superhuman standard, how many firearms officers do we have in the country?

This also reminds me of another case in the oxfordshire area where a man held his family hostage for hours while the police waited for the firearms unit, iirc everyone inside died because of the wait.

I still stick to my original view that someone should be punished, even if its just losing there job because something somewhere f*cked up badley. I dont think anyone has yet lost there job have they, and the firearms officers involved are back on duty?

[Spiderman]

Spiderman...getting shot by a shotgun is very bad news. And I wouldn't trust a car door!
Please read my post. I never suggested taking cover behind a car door and i'm sure thats not what they would train officers to do. I said behind the car itself and to my mind behind the engine. No shotgun would be capable of penetrating that.


A shotgun blast at close range is certain death.
Agreed and i'm sure it'd make one hell of a mess too. But why would an officer who is armed with a weapon with a much better killing range get so close to someone who is POSSIBLY armed with a shotgun?

If an armed policeman is confronted with that possibility then he may get a bit jumpy. Can't blame him. He could be dead in two seconds.
I can! He's a highly trained officer who has fired his weapon in many training situations and quite possibly in anger/action. I presume they happily recruit ex-soldiers with good weapons experience, no?
If i was confronted by a burglar and i was armed then i'd be expected to get jumpy and make rash decisions. I'd expect the person wearing the uniform to show the highest restarain and put self preservation and the preservation of he innocent at the highest priority.



There are plenty gun and plenty gun crime on our streets. So armed police are going to be a big fixture in policing. BUT remember that the UK is the ONLY policeforce in the developed world that doesne carry guns.
And those armed police that are gonna be about in greater numbers are gonna be just as jumpy if not jumpier??? i'd expect the police to learn lessons from these sort fo things and all i see is the old culture of closing ranks and protecting their own, regardless of the loss of innocent life.

And the fact that the UK police are the only ones that are not routinely aremd does not mean that they kill less people yearly than those countries that have armed officers does it?
If i had the time i'd look into the stats for this but i think we've moved a long way way from the "old days" of being proud that bobbies are unarmed....especially now that they want to arm more officers with tazers when up to now its been firearms officers who could use the tazer.

I can understand your positon of trying to defend the police as a serving member but to be so blinkered to the real facts of this case is a little worrying to me.
Rank and file officers should be up in arms that men were sent to kill someone based on weak, flimsy surveilance. The guy who was supposed to ID him as he left his flat was busy taking a pee FFS. At that point the operation should have been deemed a failure and surveilance only maintained on a "possible" suspect until clear ID had been made of him.

Heads must roll. You cant kill innocent people and not have to face the music.

[gettin2dizzy]

I get jumpy just on computer games!

[Pedrosa]

Additional to the regrettable and tragic slaying of Menezes there is for me a far greater problem here. It is simply that Joe Public can only feel even more insecure due to the elite of the Police force committing inexcusable ,amateurish mistakes.

The citizens should be able to rest easy at night in the knowledge that those who serve them in the Police force are the right kind of people and that those chosen for specialist roles are of the highest calibre possible.

On the back of this disturbing case is the fact that thousands of truly dedicated,responsible and honest police officers run the risk of themselves being tarred with the same brush as those whose ineptitude and total irresponsibility we are now discussing.

[Spiderman]

The idea of "innocent unitl proven guilty" has not existed in reality in this country for a number of years in my opinion. Its always been closer to "if the cops point the finger at you then you are probably guilty...unless you can prove your innocence"

However its now the complete oposite as far as senior police oofiers are concerned.... Asked what she was thinking at the time, she said: "I did not have any intelligence telling me that he was not carrying a bomb....

Errrm, so did you have any intel telling you he was carrying anything even remotely suspicious you stupid woman.

Further on in the article she describes JC's behaviors as suspicous..."The behaviours that were described in terms of nervousness, agitation, sending text messages, using the telephone, then getting on and off the bus all added to the picture-of someone potentially intent on causing an explosion."

So next time you catch a bus and its running late due to the traffic do try not to look nervous or aggitated tha you are late for work yet again, dont contact your bosses by text or phone to tell them you're running a little late and dont for gods sake think of getting on the bus in front cos you think it may get you there faster and then get back on the one you were on cos you realise the one in front is broken down. Cos then you're a prome target for assisnation.

This woman i believe is the one who made a right royal mess of things and needs to be held accountable.

Full story here... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23417302-details/Officer+in+charge+of+Menezes+operation+denies+cont rol+room+'chaos'+led+to+shooting/article.do

[Pedrosa]

Interesting how special bullets that are designed to deliver more of their force to the actual target than a standard one that can pass through, were used to hit this poor guy 7 TIMES!! FFS.

[The Basket]

Spiderman...I have constantly said that this was a mess and that someone needs to be responsible.

However...I will defend the Police as an organisation and what it does. I will not defend individuals who do wrong.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2007/05/police-officer-shot-dead/

See...I can pick out individual cases too.

[Spiderman]

Basket...please dont take this as me being cold hearted/beligerant or argumentative BUT you sign up for the job well aware of the dangers, right?

Every serving officer knows that whilst in uniform they are a target for all kinds of things, from the mundane to the outright murderous. I mean how many times have cops in uniform had to turn a deaf ear to a bunch of toe rags calling them pigs or making oink noises as they pass by?

Point i'm making is this guy who was killed found himself in a tragic and unforseen situation. He was a friearms officer from what i can make out of that story....but why was a firearms officer sent to a domestic distrubance i wonder? maybe no one else available, who knows? But its all in the line of duty.

Now the rest of us who dont wear a uniform expect those that do to conduct themselves accordingly.

Sadly you boys in uniform cant expect the same of the public when you get called out to a situation. What happended to this fella is wrong on so many levels and i personaly agree with the death sentance for this type of killing (police officer or not being the victim btw) but it seems the coward who killed him knew he was in for a rough ride so chose the easy way out and killed himself.

However i cant see any similarity in a case where a serving police officer is killed in the line of duty to a case where serving police officers kill innocent members of the public simply because they dont take the appropriate measure before openign fire...which really should be the ultimate last resort action.

Again, please understand that i'm not anti police but i do have very strong feeling about those who pull trigers when other alternatives are available to them. Especially when their actions are based on the flimsiest of evidence.

[Ruffy]

... i do have very strong feeling about those who pull trigers when other alternatives are available to them. ...

So do I - I expect those criminals who use weapons to use the alternative of being law abiding!

At the root of this is the moral fact that society seems to tolerate it's own members who choose to ignore the law and just expect the police service to deal with the fallout. Unfortunately, the general populus seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities because it finds them too hard to fulfil, yet it still expects the police to be 100% perfect in the face of increasing adversity.

I think we all need to break the cycle by supporting the police (as an organisation) in their business instead of complaining that they are intruding on our lives. At least then we would have some chance of being confident that a situation like the Menezes case doesn't re-occur. If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?

Personally, I am still many, many times more concerned about becoming a victim of criminal activity than a victim of police mistake. However tragic this incident, I am still happy to leave the police service to learn it's own lessons. I still believe that the fundamental aim of their operation was to prevent a terrorist attack and not just to assassinate an innocent individual. The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

[hoodlum]

May I add my 20p from experience?

Short barrelled weapons are inaccurate, particularly of the 9mm calibre types. You can stand at 20 metres, on a calm day, under no other stress, fire 13 rounds at a man sized target aiming for the centre of it's body mass (torso) and miss with some of your shots. That's not crap shooting, that's the characteristics of short barrelled weapons. (from my experience 9mm Browning)

I don't know what distance the engagement took place at but it is a known (i hesitate to use the word fact) that a marksman's accuracy drops when he's under stress. I have no doubt that this was a stressful occurence and the adrenaline pumping round the policemen's bodies would have had an effect on their accuracy as well. Control of breathing is an incredibly important factor in good shooting. Closing in on someone who is a terrorist suspect bent on suicide bombing (they thought that at the time) would have any fat pie eater blowing out of his ring.

Speed of firing has an impact on accuracy as well. I'd bet your granny that they never fired at the rapid rate of fire (one every two seconds) which gives you the firer sufficient time to control the involuntary reflexes of muscles and the natural movement of the weapon as the recoil has an effect. I would suggest that they shot at a faster rate than this, which is another factor in causing inaccuracy when shooting. (so is snatching the trigger but I won't go into that). They probably shot so fast because of what they believed Mr Menezez to be.

To conclude, the accuracy rate isn't that bad given the sitation they faced. And they will have been following ROE, the key point being about the use of force and the belief that the individual was about to commit or in the process of commiting an act likely to cause a loss of life. Likewise, the guidelines suggest that you may fire no more aimed shots than is neccessary. I can't remember it all fully; i'd have to get my card out but cannot be remotely arsed......

In my opinion, and without reading the facts surrounding the case, it sounds to me that the act of the policemen was probably within the law and inline with current training (ROE is not law, it's a guideline to follow). The sad part was the failure of the intelligence which led to an innocent man being killed

As to Gwent police "popping caps off on auto" that sounds like a "fun" shoot (as in not part of their annual training, but more to do with weapon capability familiarisation etc - or some wizeguy switched his change lever to "A" in the locker room...) because they certainly would be unlikely in the extreme to use auto in most situations when applying force (see comment about ROE above)

[Spiderman]

.....The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

Well you see it that way as do many of those who have posted in this thread. Whether they are pro-police or anti it seems most peeps still agree that this operation was flawed.

Right?

So why does this deluded woman make these comments in court....

Clare Montgomery QC, prosecuting, asked why an armed response unit, who were allegedly scrambled to the address in the early morning, were not at the scene.

Miss D*ck said: "If that is what happened it seems like there has been some miscommunication. That can happen in the Met Police."

Asked if there were "flaws" in the operation which led to Mr de Menezes's death, Miss D*ck said: "I don't think there were flaws.

"There are things we would do differently today, but I don't think there were flaws."

Ms D*ck gave the ambiguous order to "stop" him getting on the train when he was already on his way to it and in all probability would be on it by the time her boys arrived. She goes on to say how she didnt give the order to shoot. But defends her guys for having done so due to his behaviour.

Bear in mind he was tackled by one officer who pinned his arms to his sides and forced him back into his seat.
What the hell "behaviours" could he have exhibited at the time as 2 others guys with pistols drawn approched him?
I know my behavious would be one of panic and fear and probably screaming "let go of me! dont shoot me!!!!!! WTF is going on!?!?" Yet this woman is trying to say he did something that so worried her officers they had no other choice but to open fire and kill him? While he was still being held by the first officer the other 2 opened fire!!

But the operation wasn't flawed in her eyes, oh no. :roll:

[The Basket]

If she admits she is wrong then she is going to take the blame.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

So do I - I expect those criminals who use weapons to use the alternative of being law abiding!

At the root of this is the moral fact that society seems to tolerate it's own members who choose to ignore the law and just expect the police service to deal with the fallout. Unfortunately, the general populus seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities because it finds them too hard to fulfil, yet it still expects the police to be 100% perfect in the face of increasing adversity.

I think we all need to break the cycle by supporting the police (as an organisation) in their business instead of complaining that they are intruding on our lives. At least then we would have some chance of being confident that a situation like the Menezes case doesn't re-occur. If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?

Personally, I am still many, many times more concerned about becoming a victim of criminal activity than a victim of police mistake. However tragic this incident, I am still happy to leave the police service to learn it's own lessons. I still believe that the fundamental aim of their operation was to prevent a terrorist attack and not just to assassinate an innocent individual. The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

What you're proposing is that we throw a fundamental principle of justice (innocence until proven guilty) out the window, which is unacceptable.

[Ruffy]

What you're proposing is that we throw a fundamental principle of justice (innocence until proven guilty) out the window, ...

No I'm not! I agree that to change the innocent until proven guilty concept would be unnacceptable.

What I would like is for a society where citizens accept that they have just as much responsibility as the police service for weeding out criminal elements. As part of that, we should be happy to accept some occasional inconvenience as the police attend to identifying and capturing the guilty and gathering the evidence to prove it. We also have to accept the unpleasant fact that there will be mistakes made by everyone involved in trying to preserve law & order.

[Spiderman]

If she admits she is wrong then she is going to take the blame.

And so she should!!!! FFS this is where is all goes wrong. there is no accountability. if i make a mistake at my job which is only designing and selling things, then i have to put my hand up to it and explain myself to my boss.
This woman sits in court and wont admit to what is plain and simple for everyone to see. She should appolgise in public and step down. Admit mistakes were made and go gracefully. Give the family a sense of closure to this sorry episode.

No I'm not! I agree that to change the innocent until proven guilty concept would be unnacceptable.....

We also have to accept the unpleasant fact that there will be mistakes made by everyone involved in trying to preserve law & order.

You arrest someone by mistake , it can be undone.... you just let them go.
You pump a bunch of bullets into an innocent mans head....errrm no way to reverse that is there?

theres mistakes and theres mistakes that should never have happened. If this case goes unpunished then these sort of mistakes can happen again and again.

[The Basket]

Spiderman...if shes says it is wrong and I take the blame then she may get convicted and take the rap.

She covering her ass in time honoured tradition.

[tomjones2]

If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?


How are we going to see change if no one if brought to justic, I still say that someone must have been in charge here and they are responsible. With command comes responisbilty and all that. If no one was in command then the boss of the met/ police should take responsibly for not introducting proper command structures. There dont have to be murder/manslaughter charages but someone should stand up and say sorry I f*cked up and at least lose there job.

If we chose to ignore it them there is a precident set in for future mistakes.

The police are very difficult to prosecute, mostley for good reason, like soliders, firemen etc they give a lot to society and should see something in return but someone has died here.

[21QUEST]

haha, love all this crap about "backing the Police, no matter what"...very funny indeed.

A simple question to all those saying the above(IMO) "with all the information that has come to light(some posted on here), if it were a member of your family would you still be saying the same?"

Seeing as I'm not a gambler, I'll put my money on what I'm sure is the winner ...... "I'm sure you all, would be singing a different tune".

Whole thing was a cluster feck, somebody sure fecked up and because of all the lies and cover up going on, they are in my opinion, a bunch of spineless CNUTS.....easy for me to say eh.


Ben

[busasean]

Just stating a fact. I am amazed that the idea that someone who has and uses cocaine is everyday.

Look...the Met did wrong. Someone deserves to be found at fault. But this is far more. This is about anti police views. And this is a stick to beat them with.

The police role is a thankless one and necessary. And I will support the police in general...although it is obvious in this case, a huge error of judgement happened.


absolutely right, but then i guess i'm not one of the human rights "touchy feely" brigade. at the end of the day a terible mistake was made but what if they had been right? would you still be saying the police were wrong. my brother was a firearms officer with kent police and as much as i hate the traffic police and scamera scum, the "real" police are the ones who have to deal with the sort of people who wouldnt think twice about hurting innocent people. lessons need to be learnt from this not just an anti police witch hunt.

[21QUEST]

It is said "the eyes only see what the brain allows it to see"

People are focusing on what they see(wrongly IMHO) to be people just "Police hating". In my opinion, folks are really not putting the blame on the guys who actually pulled the trigger.


Ben

[Biker Biggles]

Ive resisted the urge to comment too much on this issue cos we still dont really know enough about what actually happened,but a few things spring to mind for me.
Ive worked with the Met's armed units several times over the last ten years and the thing that always comes to the fore is the extreme caution they employ with their rules of engagement.As such ive never seen them open fire.They constantly work in fear of finding themselves on the wrong end of one of these investigations,so something was very different on the day in question.Either the shooters all had a collective brainstorm(unlikely)or the rules of engagement were different and the entire event was ordered from much higher up.
I believe that when these events originate at high level we will never be allowed to get to the bottom of it,and i feel very strongly that it is wrong to stick the blame down to the lowest common denominator,such as the individual footsoldiers who it is most expedient to hang out to dry.Those in higher positions always regard the rest of us as wholly expendable when the brown stuff hits the fan,and this affair stinks of brown stuff hitting fans.

[Spiderman]

It is said "the eyes only see what the brain allows it to see"

People are focusing on what they see(wrongly IMHO) to be people just "Police hating". In my opinion, folks are really not putting the blame on the guys who actually pulled the trigger.


Ben

Exactly right Ben.

Ive said it time amd time again but et me say it once more... I feel sorry for the guys who had to pull the triggers. They had a hell of a job to do and if they were really faced witha suicide bomber they would get all the prise i could give them.

My Point has always been that it was the surveillance and lack of clear ID of this poor man that led to his death. The commanders who gave the orders based them on very weak intel and for that only they can be held accountable.

Bear in mind also this is a HEALTH & SAFETY case now. The CRIMINAL prosecution has been and gone and noone was found guilty if any criminal wrongdoing.

Even more reason why this Cmndr D*ck needs to put her hands up and admit she made mistakes. She wont see the inside of a jail cell from the worong side of the bars ...in fact i'm sure she'd get a fat pension and golden handshake. But at least it'd show the force are big enough to put their hands up and take blame where its due.

But no they'll argue this to the end and extend their attitude of "if we even suspect you might be a "terrorist" the gloves are off, the rules go out the window and if we wanna shoot first and bugger asking questions at all, then we will. Cos we can and no one can hold us accountable"

[Spiderman]

....or the rules of engagement were different and the entire event was ordered from much higher up.


Thats the case alright. Please dont take my word for it but do some googling for "Operation Kratos"

The simple rules for this type of engagnent were trained to a select few of the firearms unit by Israeli Secret Services. They obviously are th ones who routinely may have to deal with a suicide bomber so they were the best to get training from, the Met police have admitted this much.

Kratos rules of engament had to be diffrent from the norm for obvious reasons. Some of those they have made public are outlined below

1-No Visual or verbal "warning" or "identification" of armed officers. Scream "armed police" like they usualy do and the bomber will simply detonate himself.
2-No warning before firing. For same reasons as above
3-Multiple head shots from as close to point blank as possile. Apparently using special 124grain rounds for maximum damage and trauma. They say standard rounds from pistols at close range were found to pass thru the head too cleanly and if the brain does not suffer maximum physical damage as quickly as possible then apparently there is still a chance the muscles will contract and trigger the bomb.

Now if thats the rules you're playing by for the operation you wanna make sure...no DAMN sure, the guy you suspect is suspected for all the right reasons.
And you sure as hell would have taken him out before he got on the first bus...or at least before he got into the tube station. On the escalaters, where we have all now seen CCTV footage of at least 3 guys near him.
But no that team were told to follow him only, the other team were told to eliminate him. Simple.

But they got the wrong guy.

[The Basket]

Hey Spiderman dont let this thread die so easy!

Lets say you is a policeman with a gun and your job is to serve and protect...but you are told that if you pull the trigger and get it wrong...u is done for murder and locked away for a very long time...would you volunteer?

Nope and neither would anyone else,

Not saying kill for free but mistakes have to be taken as just that. Without the policeman on a ski jump to 30 years.

Not talking about this case but in general. Problem with this case is it goes to the moon and plenty of top brass are in the line for a kicking. The individual shooters can say they were following orders and so the chain of command is just as responsible.

[gettin2dizzy]

Hey Spiderman dont let this thread die so easy!

Lets say you is a policeman with a gun and your job is to serve and protect...but you are told that if you pull the trigger and get it wrong...u is done for murder and locked away for a very long time...would you volunteer?

Nope and neither would anyone else,

Not saying kill for free but mistakes have to be taken as just that. Without the policeman on a ski jump to 30 years.

Not talking about this case but in general. Problem with this case is it goes to the moon and plenty of top brass are in the line for a kicking. The individual shooters can say they were following orders and so the chain of command is just as responsible.

I'd shoot you for that!

[The Basket]

Wot Bad grammer?

Cant shoot suspected terrorists but ok to shoot poor grammer users

My god and i thought I were crazy!:smt081

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Hey Spiderman dont let this thread die so easy!

Lets say you is a policeman with a gun and your job is to serve and protect...but you are told that if you pull the trigger and get it wrong...u is done for murder and locked away for a very long time...would you volunteer?

Nope and neither would anyone else.

I don't think that's been suggested.

Not saying kill for free but mistakes have to be taken as just that. Without the policeman on a ski jump to 30 years.

That's the whole point. This wasnt a case of a single tragic mistake, it was a cataloge of blunders.

[Spiderman]

Basket, dude, please understand where i am comming from.

The individulas who pulled the triggers did so (apparently-since the CCTV from the acrriage has mysteriously dissapeared an it has now emerged on officer cleared the train carriage out before the others opened fire) with all the best reasons to.

Its the ones who gave them the orders - based on crap surveillance and intel - that need to be held accountable.

An innocent man was killed yet the polices defence seems to me to be no diffrent than it would have been if the intended terrosist had beeen killed but found to have been of no danger as he was not armed or carrying explosives.
Honestly, think about it, if they had killed Osman like this would they be defending themselves in any other way than they are now?
I dont thnk so but they'd have more of the public on their said saying "well he was a terrorist and thats the risks you take if you are one" and they would have an easier time of wriggling out of it.

But they killed a totally innocent man. It could have been you.

[The Basket]

You're Right! I was in London at the time as well. And a tube user. But I was no where near.

Not having a pop but do ya think that a mosickle forum is the best place for this? If ya feel strongly I can give ya some addresses and stuff to write too. You can say what ya feel and maybe change things. If the general public were really on it then things can change. Touchy feely police and all that.

[Spiderman]

Well thats whats nice about our little forum here buddy...that we discuss in a grown up manner all types of issues. Thats what IB is all about you see...anything goes as long as it doesnt get rude or descend into a slanging match with personal insults flying about.

As for writing to the cops in the hope the will change... i think i got more chance of asking NASA if i can go on their next shuttle as a passenger...for free :lol:

[gettin2dizzy]

Well thats whats nice about our little forum here buddy...that we discuss in a grown up manner all types of issues. Thats what IB is all about you see...anything goes as long as it doesnt get rude or descend into a slanging match with personal insults flying about.
that's pushing it a bit ;)


As for writing to the cops in the hope the will change... i think i got more chance of asking NASA if i can go on their next shuttle as a passenger...for free :lol:
erm...I did that 3 years ago, saying it would be good publicity for them. They never replied - perhaps they're still thinking about it :lol:

[The Basket]

Not saying we can't discuss this as adults...but you have a point to say and you seem to feel it strong. So give it full monty and make it happen.

One person can make a difference...you never watched Knight Rider as a kid?:p

[Spiderman]

Dude some of the best legal minds money can buy cant get the Met to admit their mistakes in court. Do you really think litte old me with a strong opinion is gonna make a difference?

Trust me, JC's family are making more noise about this than i am as its obviously far more important to them yet do you see the Met even facing up to them or appoligising.

i think the best appology they came out with is an A la Blair type appology like "we're sorry that he was shot but we are not sorry for doing what we did as it was based on the best intel blah blah poop falling out my mouth everytime i open it"

The only reason i'm posting in this thread is to put a stop to the misinformation that has already permeated the "general publics" mind about this case whent he facts are simple and should not be clouded by other issues.

The killed an innocent man due to a series of blunders and miscommunications and it cannot be allowed to go unpunished lest we give the Met license to get it wrong. Again. And again.

[Dante]

I believe anyone tasked with protecting this countries security should be able to do so without fear of reprisal should a mistake be made.

They have to live with what they do day to day - what is the biggest mistake you or I will make in our daily jobs? Spilling a brew over a keyboard?

It's very easy to sit in Surrey with your 2020 hindsight and berate the officers for making these mistakes - i'd like to see how you react in the same situation given the same information.

It was one mistake, one man died - numerous successful operations occur every day saving hundreds if not thousands of lives.

Get some perspective.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I believe anyone tasked with protecting this countries security should be able to do so without fear of reprisal should a mistake be made.

They have to live with what they do day to day - what is the biggest mistake you or I will make in our daily jobs? Spilling a brew over a keyboard?

It's very easy to sit in Surrey with your 2020 hindsight and berate the officers for making these mistakes - i'd like to see how you react in the same situation given the same information.

It was one mistake, one man died - numerous successful operations occur every day saving hundreds if not thousands of lives.

Get some perspective.

Sorry, but that's rubbish.

I have a job in which I'm paid to make decisions. If I make a mistake that goes unchecked then the company will in all likelyhood accept it and just concerntrate on how to put it right. If I'm completely incompetant, make successions of utterly stupid choices and cause serious financial loss I expect to get sacked.

An innocent mans dead and no-ones even been held acountable, let alone sacked.

This isn't about finding someone to blame for an unfortunate mistake, it's about the Met facing up to a series of catastrophic failures, and addressing them. Their refusal to accept any responsibility is worrying indeed.

[gettin2dizzy]

I walked in to a butcher the other day where all the beef was on the ceiling.
I said wow! the steaks are high!











*groan*

[northwind]

I believe anyone tasked with protecting this countries security should be able to do so without fear of reprisal should a mistake be made.

Or to put it another way, "This job is so essential that they should be free to mess it up" It's logic, jim, but not as we know it.

But I think you're possibly missing the point, it doesn't have to be about punishment. We've got this huge chain of ****-ups, deceit and incompetence, even if you don't want to put a head on a stick that's got to be fixed.

You can't say it too often, if Menezes had been a suicide bomber, he would have succeeded. He was killed after having several perfect opportunities to blow up lots of people, so the failure here isn't just that an innocent man was killed for really no reason whatsoever, but also that a police supervision effort on a potential bomber completely failed to stop a man that might have been a bomber. You think that's a situation that should be allowed to continue, either way?

You've got to get people who'll hide the facts from their chain of command, or who'll lead a completely flawed operation so dangerously, out of the system before they do it again, and it doesn't have to be about revenge, it's just how you get the job done.

[Ruffy]

Just catching up - this is a good, strong debate
You've got to get people who'll hide the facts from their chain of command, or who'll lead a completely flawed operation so dangerously, out of the system before they do it again, and it doesn't have to be about revenge, it's just how you get the job done.
I agree, but at work are you totally honest in all your opinions with your boss, or your boss's boss, or your directors?


Do you really think litte old me with a strong opinion is gonna make a difference?
You've always got to believe you can - that's democracy!

The killed an innocent man due to a series of blunders and miscommunications and it cannot be allowed to go unpunished lest we give the Met license to get it wrong. Again. And again.
(At the risk of a major derail) I am interested in the contrast that the same force of argument was not pushed against a certain ex-PM over a certain war that continues to cause loss of innocent life again and again. It has similarities - poor intel, poor decisions, no accountability, no honesty, apology etc.


You arrest someone by mistake , it can be undone.... you just let them go.
You pump a bunch of bullets into an innocent mans head....errrm no way to reverse that is there?

As I said, unpleasant fact - mistakes happen. I would have the same stance, in terms of retribution required, had someone made the mistake of not pumping a bunch of bullets into a guilty suicide bomber.

But I'm not advocating letting them just get away with it. I'm still optomistic and trusting (accepting that some would say foolish) enough to believe that the seriousness of this incident will lead to improvement, in private, throughout the police. It doesn't necessarily need a public "washing of dirty laundry".

[northwind]

No I'm not, but then, it's some time since I shot a customer in the face ;)

[tomjones2]

No I'm not, but then, it's some time since I shot a customer in the face ;)

I have been tempted though

[Spiderman]

You've always got to believe you can - that's democracy!
Pfff, dont make me laugh with that nonsense word "democracy". Did you vote to allow the Govt to routinely record and transcribe all you landlne/mobile calls and emails and text messages and make the available to hundreds of Govt agencies? Well did you? Of course not. You vote for a bunch of liars and hypocrites who say what they need to to get your vote and do what the hell they please when they are in.

It doesn't necessarily need a public "washing of dirty laundry".
Its the only way the family can get some closure on this isnt it? The cops say the f'd up and make a public appology. Simple. We teach children to admit when they do something wrong as the right thing to do. So whay does that not apply to cops?

I believe anyone tasked with protecting this countries security should be able to do so without fear of reprisal should a mistake be made.

They have to live with what they do day to day - what is the biggest mistake you or I will make in our daily jobs? Spilling a brew over a keyboard?

It's very easy to sit in Surrey with your 2020 hindsight and berate the officers for making these mistakes - i'd like to see how you react in the same situation given the same information.

It was one mistake, one man died - numerous successful operations occur every day saving hundreds if not thousands of lives.

Get some perspective.

Basically FS said all i need to in response to this but as for "Get some perspective" well i'm sure if that had been your brother/cousin/nephew/uncle you'd be sitting there saying "yeh well he died, so what, get on with it family. The cops do succesfull operations too you know!"
And your family would smile and congratulate you for being so big to take such a view would they? :confused:

There is no defending this behaviour, from the top down.

[Pedrosa]

I make no apology for bumping this thread so that it is brought to your attention once again.

I have pasted in what I see as a key section of the summing up of the Judge Justice Henriques. His summing up of course is meant to guide the jury as to which way they should lean with their verdict. It is completely obvious to me how is worship thinks this case should go.


Summing up, he told jurors: "To suggest that it is wrong to prosecute the police for an alleged offence under the Health and Safety at Work Act is to submit that the police are above the law."

[The Basket]

I will make this thread far more interesting.

Do you think this case would have been different if the man shot was not a Brazilian national?

Feel free to say no.

[gettin2dizzy]

probably wouldn't have had the carnival if he wasn't

[Spiderman]

I will make this thread far more interesting.

Do you think this case would have been different if the man shot was not a Brazilian national?

Feel free to say no.

meaning he was a Brit?

or meaning if he was a muslim?

personaly i think the police's stance would be no different either way.

As for the judges summing up, he also went on to say that it would be silly to think that the work of the police would be affected by the outcome of this case and its not for the jury to worry about the polices image or their ability to do their wok after the case. that should have no bearing on the jury and they should focus solely on the facts of this case.

[Pedrosa]

I will make this thread far more interesting.

Do you think this case would have been different if the man shot was not a Brazilian national?

Feel free to say no.

Nationality,gender,sexual preference,clothing style etc have no relevance at all here. An innocent person was slain in close proximity to many other innocent passengers by members of the police force behaving like crazed animals who had cornered their quarry. Due outrage has been shown I feel.

There was also a massive outcry when if I remember correctly an innocent photographer driving a mini car in the middle of London wa shot to bits also by the police in the 80's I think? Fortunately he survived his own ordeal.

[gettin2dizzy]

Verdict is out
London's police force has been found guilty of breaking health and safety laws over the shooting dead of innocent Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes.
The Metropolitan Police unnecessarily put the public at risk in chasing a suspected suicide bomber across the city, an Old Bailey jury decided

[Pedrosa]

Verdict is out

Amen to that.The only verdict that any right minded person could have hoped for.

[gettin2dizzy]

Damn right. I just hope it will be acted on. It does state that no officer was to blame which makes it look like more spin.

[Pedrosa]

Damn right. I just hope it will be acted on. It does state that no officer was to blame which makes it look like more spin.

I think to bring the force to account en masse was the only likely conclusion that could have been met. After all a previous court case exonerated the officers concerned.

There will be some good come of this I am sure as procedures are reviewed and improved. At the end of the day no one involved imagined for one second that the poor victim was a total innocent.

The police are there to protect the majority of citizens who are indeed innocent of any suspicion, but it cannot be ignored that one of them might just find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time someday in the future. One can only hope that a higher degree of due care and dilligence would be engaged by officers in a similar situation should it ever arise again.

[Ruffy]

Do you think this case would have been different if the man shot was not a Brazilian national?


probably wouldn't have had the carnival if he wasn't

+1. Wrong, but probably true.

I think to bring the force to account en masse was the only likely conclusion that could have been met. After all a previous court case exonerated the officers concerned.


So what will this actually achieve? IMHO it's all spin and politics - the whole thing has stunk all the way through, on both sides.

[Pedrosa]

+1. Wrong, but probably true.



So what will this actually achieve? IMHO it's all spin and politics - the whole thing has stunk all the way through, on both sides.

It has brought the activities of the police into the public domain and I suggest the general public will no longer accept the excuse of "we were simply doing our job." It has been shown that accountability is demanded and should be provided transparently.

The spin you refer to was largely generated by the police themselves who frankly LIED and this has been shown. Any spin on the matter was as expected created by the media. In hindsight the front page headline of The Sun newspaper that hailed the killing of a "known" terrorist the day after the shooting,now appears grossly inaccurate and at least hysterical. I certainly do not agree that this was a court case which would have gained anyone politically.

I do not accept your view that all of this procedure was for nought.

[Ruffy]

It has brought the activities of the police into the public domain and I suggest the general public will no longer accept the excuse of "we were simply doing our job." It has been shown that accountability is demanded and should be provided transparently.

The spin you refer to was largely generated by the police themselves who frankly LIED and this has been shown. Any spin on the matter was as expected created by the media. In hindsight the front page headline of The Sun newspaper that hailed the killing of a "known" terrorist the day after the shooting,now appears grossly inaccurate and at least hysterical. I certainly do not agree that this was a court case which would have gained anyone politically.

I do not accept your view that all of this procedure was for nought.

I really hope that you're right and I have no problem with you being more optomistic than me. However, I have a feeling that in a few years time this will be nothing more than a vague memory, of politicians simply showing that some justice would be done. But is any individual going to feel any punishment? I thought that was the aim, to bring someone to account for their individual actions.

For the Londoners reading, will you now feel better about your personal safety when out and about?

[metalmonkey]

I haven't read all the theard to much to go through, but what I find it comes down damed if you do, dammed if you don't. If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.

The whole incident was tragic, people seem forget the officers involved and how it affects them.

I saw someone with a hole in their head a few days back, needless to say I didn't sleep very well that night.

[northwind]

If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.


I've said it a couple of times already in the thread, but, if Menezes had been a bomber launching an attack, he would have succeeded- before he was killed he travelled on a crowded bus, through a busy station and onto an underground train. He'd also have had plenty of opportunity to detonate any device when the police boarded the train. So, this doesn't really apply, they both failed by shooting him, and failed to prevent a suspected bomber from being able to carry out an attack.

[gettin2dizzy]

I haven't read all the theard to much to go through, but what I find it comes down damed if you do, dammed if you don't. If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.

The whole incident was tragic, people seem forget the officers involved and how it affects them.

I saw someone with a hole in their head a few days back, needless to say I didn't sleep very well that night.

i think the case was to do with the handling by the police rather than the death. The fact that if he had be a bomber why was he put in so may situations when he was surrounded by people where he could have caused huge harm

[barmy.biker]

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do. they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.

alot of fuss as been made of the amount of shots fired. there was more than one officer what they supposed to do flip a coin or go eeni meeni miny mo?

and regarding the supposed ROE violation

targets like what he was supposed to be need to be taken down quickly and effectively to minimise the danger to the public. shouting armed police put the________ down wont work with them.

i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?

[Pedrosa]

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do. they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.

alot of fuss as been made of the amount of shots fired. there was more than one officer what they supposed to do flip a coin or go eeni meeni miny mo?

and regarding the supposed ROE violation

targets like what he was supposed to be need to be taken down quickly and effectively to minimise the danger to the public. shouting armed police put the________ down wont work with them.

i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?


I am sorry but the "what if" in your argument simply cannot be used here. I also agree that a witch hunt for individual officers was wrong as they were placed in a most unenviable position by dreadfull procedures,(or lack of them) and misinformation.

They were though so incompetant that they almost shot one of their own plain clothed detctives! Like it's not a good idea for each to know the other playetrs on the team?

You may recall that to justify what had gone on, the police fed information that stated the suspect was carrying a rucksack and wearing a long coat. these were two most outrageous lies. proven by the leaking of photographs taken in the train carriage.

[gettin2dizzy]

and also the 'what if he was a terrorist' argument falls apart after they let him get on a crowded bus & tube

[Pedrosa]

and also the 'what if he was a terrorist' argument falls apart after they let him get on a crowded bus & tube

Good point young sir.;)

[Spiderman]

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do.
Killing an innocent man was the right thing to do? What a bizzare point of view

they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.
Ah i see what you mean now....only problem is that those same intel officers ARE police or working for the police whether originaly from SAS or MI5/6.


i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?

thnaks christ you werent on that jury then mate. I guess the judge made the summing up he did for the benefit of people like you who may have been on the jury. What the cops do is what they do, not a single one who wears the uniform does so without choice. They get paid to do a job they chose to do so dont go crying for them on that account.

The simple fact is that the entire operation was a mess and an innocent man died because of it. If it wasnt for that very conciencous(sp) person who worked at the IPCC leaking that photo early on then none of us may ever have known an innocent man was killed. the cops could have covered it up very nicely thank you.
The whole investigation stinks a bit too since Metroline say there was nothign wrong wih the CCTV from that carriage and the cops who took it for evidence knew that too...so how come now its faound to be faulty and cant be played in court. What does it show that is so incriminating to the police they had to destroy it i wonder?

i hope the De Menezes family can now petition the European criminal court to allow a criminal trial of the officers based on a guilty verdict under the health and Safety trial. Afer all if they were guilty of not looking out for him or the general public then those who made the flawed decisions should be accountable to the law since a man was unlawfully killed.

[Pedrosa]

Killing an innocent man was the right thing to do? What a bizzare point of view


Ah i see what you mean now....only problem is that those same intel officers ARE police or working for the police whether originaly from SAS or MI5/6.



thnaks christ you werent on that jury then mate. I guess the judge made the summing up he did for the benefit of people like you who may have been on the jury. What the cops do is what they do, not a single one who wears the uniform does so without choice. They get paid to do a job they chose to do so dont go crying for them on that account.

The simple fact is that the entire operation was a mess and an innocent man died because of it. If it wasnt for that very conciencous(sp) person who worked at the IPCC leaking that photo early on then none of us may ever have known an innocent man was killed. the cops could have covered it up very nicely thank you.
The whole investigation stinks a bit too since Metroline say there was nothign wrong wih the CCTV from that carriage and the cops who took it for evidence knew that too...so how come now its faound to be faulty and cant be played in court. What does it show that is so incriminating to the police they had to destroy it i wonder?

i hope the De Menezes family can now petition the European criminal court to allow a criminal trial of the officers based on a guilty verdict under the health and Safety trial. Afer all if they were guilty of not looking out for him or the general public then those who made the flawed decisions should be accountable to the law since a man was unlawfully killed.

Spidey makes many a valid point. Particularly that the police are there to protect the general public. Juan Charles de Menezes never did anything to remove himself from being classified as anything else. Therefore it was a member of the general public that was slain. It could have been you, are you still as charitable with your forgiveness towards the police in this case?