Track riding question on technique

[monkey]

Hello peeps. I've done a few trackdays now and am not very quick at all. I'm not interested in being the fastest but I do want to be more sturdy and be able to move about a bit more.

My question is specifically about setting up the bike before going into a corner. On the SV I used to brake while changing down the gears with the clutch in and blip the throttle as I came off the brake to stop the wheel locking (not trusting slipper clutch) so the bike was neutral before turning in. Or I'd brake and then change down when I'd finished braking. It's a ll a bit frantic and I've gone over the grass a few times now and don't think I'm doing it right. I'm sure braking and changing down after is the wrong way to go about things but what about trying to blip the throttle while coming off the brakes? I have a Daytona now without a slipper clutch so there's more scope for the back wheel to lock if I don't blip the throttle correctly.

Also do I want my body weight forward through the turn?

Finally what's the score with braking whilst leaning (a bit and going into a corner) as I wanted to do whilst going down the slight hill at Brands Hatch to Graham Hill bend?

Only people who know what they're talking about need answer please!
:)

[Blue_SV650S]

Yes, if you want to end up going at any sort of respectable pace, you want to be running the brakes into a turn. You can incrementally build up on this.

The best tip I can give you is to start braking where you think is about right, then try and pick a reference point, if you are lucky there will be a yardage marker right there, if not use anything, a lump of grass/mud/banding, whatever, as long as you can identify it lap after lap. From this point on you are not trying to judge when to brake, you are taking that marker and braking there. Presuming you are not already as deep in as you can go, then cut say 1m off at a time (every consequent lap) picking a new marker, do this until you feel uncomfortable, then take the previous marker and keep using that until you feel at ease … then pick the next marker.

You will find as you are braking later and later the requirement for using the brakes into a turn increases. YOu can turn in on almost full brakes ... easing them off as you slow and increase lean. As long as you are doing it incrementally, there should never be an ‘Oh S41t’ moment and you can just concentrate on making it smoother.

Most of your downshifting can be done before the turn, so for a starter, set the gear and then concentrate on the brakes (slip the clutch if you have over-revved it a bit on the downshifting) - you can and should ultimately be braking all the way to the apex. Just build up slowly, if you are bricking it your are tense and not going to improve (as you need to be relaxed) you also risk binning it.

Like I said, incremental and braking markers are your key points here :) But so you are always improving, you need to be on the edge of your comfort zone to impove ... else if you always ride in the 'happy zone' you will just plateau well before your natural ability actually allows.

[SV650Racer]

I have a Daytona now without a slipper clutch so there's more scope for the back wheel to lock if I don't blip the throttle correctly.

Firstly you need to think about the running off track side of things. It takes practice to get your mind used to all the things that are happening just before the brake and turn in points. This is why a person who does the odd trackday finds it harder to put everything together whilst entering a turn than a seasoned racer who often does all this in their subconcious.

Firstly you need to find your brake markers and turn points. These need to be set with a wide margin for error, so in essense, if you mess up on the brakes, you will have time to correct this and make the turn in.

Everything needs to be slowed down and broken down into stages. Rushing the turn if your not confortable with how your getting into that turn isnt ideal.

Ideally find your braking marker, leaving yourself enough time to smoothly shift down the gearbox one gear at a time, letting the clutch in and out for each change. Blipping the throttle will assist by bringing the engine revs down slowly so not to lock up the rear.

You then need to concentrate on the turn in point. Pick one with a decent margin again. You should now be shifting down smoothly into the turn point. At your turn point you should have completed the final downshift and just come off the brakes. Looking through the turn you can now add a small amount of throttle to balance the bike, turn in and complete the turn in.

Once you have this proceedure set then you can start closing down the process, by gradually decreasing the amount of time you spend on the brakes, by using more brake over a shorter period and closing down how quickly you downshift. When doing this start letting the clutch out slower as this will assist with keeping the backend unlocked.

Its all about breaking it down into sections and rethinking and going back to basics. Then gradually building it all down into one smooth movement. This is what i do all the time on test days as its too easy to concentrate on blasting round and round without actually looking at whats happening.

I brake across the track for druids into the apex and still have the brake fully on when my knee hits the apex kerb, then the bike is pulled in tight meaning i can then exit down graham hill 3/4's of the way across the track - not running to the outer kerb. Then my run down into Graham hill is flatter meaning im not braking so much tipped over. If you exit druids too wide, your on more of a turn into graham hill. Stopping the bike into the apex helps this happen.

Also do I want my body weight forward through the turn?

Your bodyweight shouldnt be too forward during the turn. Look at some racing photos and see where their bodyweight is focused. It needs to be as less hinderance to the bike as possible, light and neautral with you looking up and forwards through the turn.

[Blue_SV650S]

This may or may not be of much help, but here is a 'rear view' vid of me on a trackday at brands indy, as you can see, I brake quite deep on the rear into Druids (you can't really see how much I am tugging the front, but body position shows rear brake use quite clearly (I didn't actually realise I used it THAT much!)). I actually have to re-position mid turn in to allow me to lean the bike over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCUpH-ht0_Y

It also shows clearly how I distribute my weight (I should point out there is no ONE set method of doign things (just watch motoGP) but this is the way I go about businesses).

[monkey]

Ideally find your braking marker, leaving yourself enough time to smoothly shift down the gearbox one gear at a time, letting the clutch in and out for each change. Blipping the throttle will assist by bringing the engine revs down slowly so not to lock up the rear.

You then need to concentrate on the turn in point. Pick one with a decent margin again.

This is really what I was after as I'm not actually sure what I've been doing now. I'm ok with braking and have got that floaty feeling at the rear when I know I'm braking all I want. I do need to make a mental note of markers for every corner though and not just the ones I like. I think I was changing down as many gears as I needed judging the engine speed adn trying to blip the throttle while on the brake. Is this a bad way of doing things? I'm not sure there's enough time for me to let the clutch out for every change! On my first trackday at Cadwell (very wet) I had the rear locking up before almost every turn but got to deal with it (until I exited a corner too quickly and came off on the grass!) You have to bare in mind that I'll be on the Daytona next time I'm on track which has totally different gearing. Basically I always thought, and was told by an instructor, to brake and select the correct gear and let the bike's suspension settle before turning in. Unfortunately I wont be back on track until probably next year now so I can't really practise that much. Can I practise what you've told me on the road if I take it nice and easy and in slow motion? You've answered my question about braking whilst leant over and that's something I need to try. I thought that braking while on the lean caused the bike to stand up or is it ok as long as you're braking before leaning? Are there any reasonable training days I could go on before I take the new bike on a track day? My mates have done only 2 more trackdays than me but seem to have progressed so much more-half of mine have been wet so I've really only done two and a bit dry ones wheres they've done four and a bit.

Responde sil vous plait.
:)

[SV650Racer]

I think I was changing down as many gears as I needed judging the engine speed adn trying to blip the throttle while on the brake. Is this a bad way of doing things? I'm not sure there's enough time for me to let the clutch out for every change!

That is the correct way of doing things to start with. Going back to basics and not rushing into corners will help you to become more comfortable with entering the corner and judging brake markers. Once you become comfortable you can move onto the next stage of closing everything up so each action takes less time. Your brain needs to adjust and make every thing you do "easy". If you rush onto the next stage before your comfortable there will be too much information to process meaning if anything happens that your not happy with, there is no room left to adjust to the error.

On my first trackday at Cadwell (very wet) I had the rear locking up before almost every turn but got to deal with it (until I exited a corner too quickly and came off on the grass!)

You dont need to be locking the rear. Keep things smooth and progressive for now. We arent talking race pace here. People often think the harder they brake, the faster they go. Not the case. Keep smooth and simple and work on this. Try the old tried and tested ride round slowly without hardly any brakes. This does work and makes you more aware of what your doing entering a corner. A simple track without long straights is the best for this, Brands is ideal.

You've answered my question about braking whilst leant over and that's something I need to try. I thought that braking while on the lean caused the bike to stand up or is it ok as long as you're braking before leaning?

Leave this for now. I can do this, but i am on slicks or race tyres on a bike that is setup for this type of braking. Until you have the other parts sorted, doing this may cause you to tarmac surf. Keep things simple to start with.

I recommend the MSV (motorsportvision) trackdays. They have days just for novices and provide very good instruction. One of the guys Francis Williamson is ideal, very smooth rider, raced at BSB level, relaxed to chat with etc. These days would be ideal for starting off next season.

Everyone progresses at different speeds. You need to progress at your own speed, not that of your friends.

You can put these things together on the road and start thinking about what you are actually doing when entering a turn instead of just riding. It is harder than on track though as other variables, like traffic come into the equasion.

[lukemillar]

I'm not sure there's enough time for me to let the clutch out for every change!

For the majority of corners on UK tracks, there won't be many downshifts. I can't think of a a corner off the top of my head where you'd be changing down from 6th to 1st for example - i'm sure someone will prove me wrong, but genreally speaking! I'd say that the majority of corners would only require 1 or 2 downshifts.

The superbike/trackday schools use a good teaching technique, where they strip away the bike controls and add them back one at a time through various drills/sessions (like sarah mentioned). For example, First thing to concentrate on is throttle control - no brakes (unless your gonna head off the track :wink:), one gear (no shifting) and concentrate purely on throttle. Next drill, no brakes, 2 gears and throttle and so on. They also work on visual techniques to give you more perceived time in a corner. I think it would be well worth trading up 2/3 regular trackdays for 1 of these.

Practising this stuff can be hard on a trackday, where you tend to get people going as fast as they can, but things like CSS, Hottrax academy days etc. are very good because you everyone on the track is doing the same thing.

Like sv650racer says, you have to be smooth - it really is the key. Practise being smooth and your pace will increase naturally

Main thing is to ride so that you feel comfortable. We all do this for fun and feeling out of your depth isn't fun. Doesn't really matter whether you are the slowest or fastest thing on the track - As long as you enjoy yourself. :)

[Blue_SV650S]

..

“You've answered my question about braking whilst leant over and that's something I need to try. I thought that braking while on the lean caused the bike to stand up or is it ok as long as you're braking before leaning?”

... Leave this for now. I can do this, but i am on slicks or race tyres on a bike that is setup for this type of braking. ..

So let me get this right, your bike is set up specifically for jamming the brakes on mid-corner?? ... how did you manage that?!?! :D

Its all about ‘limits’ .. by definition if you are right on the limit then if you add more brakes you go down – as … well you were on the limit beforehand … if you were not on the limit, and you add brakes (yet remain under the limit) … you wont ... all having fancy suspension and tyres means is that those limits are faster/further over, nothing more. There is a good chance he is well within the limits of his current setup ...

Teriyakimonkey – jamming the brakes mid turn is not necessarily disastrous, but is risking things a bit, only do it if there is a really good reason to - however, running brakes into a turn is fundamental to going fast!! 8)

[Alpinestarhero]

I dont know if my input is any good here, but something that may be of use to you i hope.

One of the things I've started doing is relaxing my inside shoulder going into a corner; letting the shoulder drop to the inside, along with the elbow (i havnt got the full technique understood yet, so I might be wrong). This makes the bike feel more settled, feel less like the front is going to wash out mid turn.

Hope it helps. As for the dilema about braking and when to change gears, I change down as I brake, using the engine braking to help me - I like to be off the brakes just before I turn in and roll in on the engine braking, using the throttle then to steady the bike and keep the weight neutrally distibuted

Anyway, I think what others have said is probably more use, but I just wanted to share what I have found out :)

Matt

[twonk]

So let me get this right, your bike is set up specifically for jamming the brakes on mid-corner?? ... how did you manage that?!?! :D

Its all about ‘limits’ .. by definition if you are right on the limit then if you add more brakes you go down – as … well you were on the limit beforehand … if you were not on the limit, and you add brakes (yet remain under the limit) … you wont ... all having fancy suspension and tyres means is that those limits are faster/further over, nothing more. There is a good chance he is well within the limits of his current setup ...

Teriyakimonkey – jamming the brakes mid turn is not necessarily disastrous, but is risking things a bit, only do it if there is a really good reason to - however, running brakes into a turn is fundamental to going fast!! 8)


Read what was put again you pilock, running into the corner on the brakes upto the exit, no one said anything about jamming the brakes on mid corner from nothing.

Just shows how much you know saying that jamming the brakes on mid corner isnt disastrous, you will lose the front if you do that, jamming on full power brakes then you will load the front and it will wash away, how about you try it the next time your out on track?

You have a back brake, use it. The only reason you could possibly have for using the front after trail braking in, is to avoid a collision with another rider, which probably means your heading for the tarmac anyway and your standing up the bike.

And just so you know, slicks have more side grip hence you can tail brake hard and get away with it, try and do it on a road tyre and you be on your ass sooner than you know it.

[chunkytfg]

So let me get this right, your bike is set up specifically for jamming the brakes on mid-corner?? ... how did you manage that?!?! :D

Its all about ‘limits’ .. by definition if you are right on the limit then if you add more brakes you go down – as … well you were on the limit beforehand … if you were not on the limit, and you add brakes (yet remain under the limit) … you wont ... all having fancy suspension and tyres means is that those limits are faster/further over, nothing more. There is a good chance he is well within the limits of his current setup ...

Teriyakimonkey – jamming the brakes mid turn is not necessarily disastrous, but is risking things a bit, only do it if there is a really good reason to - however, running brakes into a turn is fundamental to going fast!! 8)

I think you'll find what she is getting at is that a standard bike such as my road SV will try and standitself up if you use brakes mid corner whereas a race bike such as my other SV will not do it as much and as such is more suitable for braking deep into a corner. I dont beleive she said it was a bad idea on his bike merely that it's probably best to leave it for now especailly as he wanted to know if it was something that could be experimented with on the road which as far as i'm concerned is a big no no due to the countless extra variables there are on the road.

And anyway here's my 2p.

So far everyone has given the best advice possible. If you can absorb everything thats been mentioned(bar the fishing for an arguement) then you will find your pace will increase anyway.

You have to remember though that to ride quicker you are effectively going faster than you are comfortable with. Crossing a line so to speak. The more you cross the line the more comfortable you will become at that point and that becomes your new line. Howvwer remember that you cant become rossi overnight so little steps or one thing at a time.

Dont be any rush to try and get your knee down either. I've seen plently of peple ride at what i consider a very rapid pace and not even move on the bike let alone get there knee down. As long as you move your body weight to the side and move your outside shoulder to the inside of the bike then your knee will eventually go down as the pace increases.

Do maybe consider buying a set of part worns off a racer to fit to the bike for the day. They will be beyond tyhere best for the guy selling them but for your pace they will happily wartm up enough and offer you enough grip to get out of trouble should you need the wiggle room to make the corner. Not to mention the head factor, haveing a set of tyres you know will grip far beyond your ability allow you to move that line alot more comfortably without running the risk of exceeding the grip of them 020's!!

DOnt try and catch your mates up. as long as you are having fun and progressing then thats all that matters. My first trackday was 2 months after my DAS and spent the day trying to keep up with my mates who were experienced TD'ers. IT fair to say when I ended up on my backside coming out of edwinas I exceeded my limits trying to do too much too soon.

Do just go and enjoy yourself after all thats all the day is about regardless of pace.

[Blue_SV650S]

Read what was put again …..

Take a chill pill and take your own advice before writing such an inflamed response! :thumbdown:

..

Do maybe consider buying a set of part worns off a racer to fit to the bike for the day. They will be beyond tyhere best for the guy selling them but for your pace they will happily wartm up enough and offer you enough grip to get out of trouble should you need the wiggle room to make the corner.




That’s the best tip yet :cool: buy some partworn race/track tyres, you will get away with more and have much better feedback with proper track tyres.

[chunkytfg]

Take a chill pill and take your own advice before writing such an inflamed response! :thumbdown:




That’s the best tip yet :cool: buy some partworn race/track tyres, you will get away with more and have much better feedback with proper track tyres.


I'd agree with the feedback aspect although at a novice level the ability to have a set of tyres to get out of trouble is probably all that is needed.

Is this the first time you've agreed with me?:D

[Blue_SV650S]

I'd agree with the feedback aspect although at a novice level the ability to have a set of tyres to get out of trouble is probably all that is needed.

Is this the first time you've agreed with me?:D

I do believe it's the fist time you haven't spoken out of your posterior yes!! :smt081

[monkey]

Wahey the traveller's here! Thanks for your help peeps. What Luke says makes sense regarding the amount of downshifts. I suppose its' only after long straights that that I'll need to change down more than a couple of gears. I really need to practise on the bike and get to know the different speeds/revs/gears relationship becuase the Daytona is soooo different to the SV. I might find that even if I don't get the right gear it's not as critical as on the SV as they're so close. I could literally go from 1st to 6th on the Daytona and it would still pull.

[andyb]

Read this thread with interest as I intend doing my first track day early next year. Thanks for all the advice guys/girls should help a lot when I finally get the courage to do one :D

[monkey]

You won't regret it Andy! When you get a corner right and you feel milimetres from the ground, it feels so right.