View Full Version : Migrant Labour
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 11:17 AM
The Labour Government has been caught out again. Yesterdays headlines were
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has apologised after it emerged that government figures on foreign workers were underestimated by 300,000.
which followed on to estimate that there are 1.1 million foreign workers in the UK, not the 800 000 previously predicted. That represents 8% of the UK workforce! Whether this 'mistake' was a mistake at all is questionable however when the Tories are gaining popularity with their recent drive to monitor immigrants it would follow suit that Labour would attempt to lessen the blow of the real figures.
In Jacquis defence
"But the important point is that actually there are 2.7 million more jobs in this country than there were in 1997.
Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, insisted nonetheless on BBC News’s Breakfast programme yesterday that the majority of new jobs had been filled “by British workers”.(timesonline)
However under scrutiny again it turns out that:
Ministers have been forced to concede that more than half of all jobs created since Labour came to power have gone to migrants. They were also forced to clarify again their figures on the number of foreign workers in the country.
In a further development, a Parliamentary answer obtained by the Conservatives has revealed 1.5 million foreign-born workers have come to work in Britain in the past 10 years.
Ms Smith told the BBC: "Of course it is bad that these figures are wrong and ministers have apologised for that, I am sorry about that.
"But the important point is that actually there are 2.7 million more jobs in this country than there were in 1997. "That's more jobs, yes, that have been filled by those that have come from abroad, but many more jobs that have been filled by UK nationals, and vacancies still out there for UK nationals."
But the government's figures were "chaotic" and they proved it was "difficult to keep track of everyone".
What chaos! It's evident that no one knows what the hell is happening, how can we even vaguely trust these figures?! It's amazing that the Government can openly make such huge blunders and lies, with no comeback. 15 years ago this would have resulted in dismissals, nowadays they're such common events it just gets forgotten, even todays papers are bored with the story and have in place "Prince quizzed over bird shooting"
Any views?
Smith 'sorry' for migrants error
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7068291.stm
More than half of jobs got to migrants
http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2774396.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7069779.stm
There's statistics, damned statistics, and lies.
Everyone on each side of the fence massages them to suit their own agenda/outlook. I tend not to worry about it. Life goes on, and indeed it will go on. Tomorrow is another day - hopefully I will be well, the bike won't have been knicked and the house will not have been burgled.
Anyway, I went to a Polish shop the other day (there's one on Union Street in Plymouth) and I couldn't find a tin of cherry blossom anywhere!!:smt044
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 11:30 AM
Should be plenty of red dusters in shops in Plymouth though?
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 11:37 AM
Oh and the migrant labour thing?
In general I think they are good for the country.They come here to work,they generally learn the language,and they intergrate into society.In short they make a positive contribution.
Thats very different to other forms of immigration who come here to live in isolation,dont speak English,dont intergrate and generally take from the rest of society.
Whether we really need over a million extra workers when we have far more than that already here on various benefits is another matter,but not the fault of the new migrant workers.
dizzyblonde
31-10-07, 11:40 AM
As i work in manufacturing, they use a lot of temps. A good 50% is made up of polish, then 30% Asian, 10% from africa or there abouts and 10% British white folk. We find that the poles are very very hard working, and I don't have a problem with most folk so long as they work hard and aren't lazy.... besides you'll find that they take up the jobs that the aveerage lazy brit wouldn't get out of bed for.....so who's fault is it that we have a problem with migrant labour
It's all election play. What is annoying is that Labour and the Conservatives will both go head to head on this issue, knowing that it is signifcant in people's minds but once elected, whoever wins will tuck their tails between their legs and do nothing.
However, if people want to come to the UK to take on jobs that UK residents are not qualified for, or don't want to do then fair play, as long as they integrate and pay taxes like the rest of us I've no issue - apart from being concerned about how society will deal with our own native un-skilled, no-hoper, stars-in-their-x-factor generation-eyes, the-world-owes-me-a-living scum that has been borne out of a long period of financial growth and stability.
slark01
31-10-07, 12:01 PM
As i work in manufacturing, they use a lot of temps. A good 50% is made up of polish, then 30% Asian, 10% from africa or there abouts and 10% British white folk. We find that the poles are very very hard working, and I don't have a problem with most folk so long as they work hard and aren't lazy.... besides you'll find that they take up the jobs that the aveerage lazy brit wouldn't get out of bed for.....so who's fault is it that we have a problem with migrant labour
Thats about the same here in warrington. We have a huge populace of Polish here and unfortunately there has been a major problem regarding the companies, 3 warehouses have stopped employing Brits and will only employ Polish ( because they DO work hard ) however I now am finding it extremely difficult to find a job in warehousing.
It may be illegal to employ only one type of people however i'd like someone try and stop the companies from doing it, you need solid proof.
I have experience, education and a good record but yet I cannot even get an interview and all I get from the agencies is that there is no work ( which is bull,it's the time of year where the companies are screaming out for people ).
Not a happy bunny!
I have no problem with foreign workers but I do think that we have had too many too quickly. The fact that the government can't get the figures right is surely proof that they have no handle on the issue. As for several iterations of the figures, IMHO people have got so used to the lies and misrepresentations coming from this mendacious government that they don't get worked up about it any more. Nobody believes them (ie ministers) anyway, so if the figures subsequently prove to be wrong, it's only what we know already.
And Brown and his homies wonder why people are so cynical about politicians and why people have lost trust in political process.
In the area that I work in I deal with alot of polish workers.
My summary:-
Polish - They work damn hard and you only have to tell them things once.
English - They are lazy and work shy, will do just enough to get by and answer back/swear at you when given an order.
The english used to beable to get away with this as there was that much work about, they could get thrown off a job and walk onto another site the same day. Unfortunately now for them there isnt spaces to walk straight into as reliable hard working polish people are filling them when they walk out.
Ceri JC
31-10-07, 12:36 PM
In the area that I work in I deal with alot of polish workers.
My summary:-
Polish - They work damn hard and you only have to tell them things once.
English - They are lazy and work shy, will do just enough to get by and answer back/swear at you when given an order.
The english used to beable to get away with this as there was that much work about, they could get thrown off a job and walk onto another site the same day. Unfortunately now for them there isnt spaces to walk straight into as reliable hard working polish people are filling them when they walk out.
Pretty much my experience too. I can see the companies' POV, why wouldn't you employ someone who works harder for less and doesn't take the p***? I can't help but feel that British workers have (to some degree) brought this situation upon themselves.
Before anyone goes, "Ah what if it happened in your trade?" It already has, I work in IT.
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 12:49 PM
I wonder if in a few years time the jobs that are being taken - so to speak - will be much higher up the ladder. So many of them are university educated and willing to work it's only a matter of time. I wonder how these countries will continue to survive when their skilled and educated population are all leaving.
northwind
31-10-07, 01:03 PM
I think the government are making a complete **** of it to be honest, I've got no problem with the migrant worker situation at all but it's obviously not being controlled or monitored properly, and that's obviously not right. But then, I can guarantee this is going to be used as part of the anti-immigration argument, which I don't think makes any sense... Anti government, aye, that fits the bill.
I wonder if in a few years time the jobs that are being taken - so to speak - will be much higher up the ladder. So many of them are university educated and willing to work it's only a matter of time. I wonder how these countries will continue to survive when their skilled and educated population are all leaving.
It's already happening, has been for years. Everyone thinks of the polish plumber but there's huge numbers of eastern europeans in the financial services industry frinstance. Mainly because of the p***-oor standard or british applicants to be honest, and the general skill shortage. There's still not enough to fill the analyst and administrative mid-level positions though.
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 01:25 PM
It's already happening, has been for years. Everyone thinks of the polish plumber but there's huge numbers of eastern europeans in the financial services industry frinstance. Mainly because of the p***-oor standard or british applicants to be honest, and the general skill shortage. There's still not enough to fill the analyst and administrative mid-level positions though.
I studied engineering at Manchester Uni where the majority of students were foreign. They were heading in to every business about, as Chinese headed businesses would recruit only Chinese, similarly for Asian businesses (pardon the geographical sweeping stereotypes here!). I will make clear I'm not playing a victim card at all here. For us British born we applied to the businesses open to all only.
I do think however that the Government is meant to be working for us, and taking care of its nationals first. One aspect of Britain I do enjoy is that it is a multicultural country, and I hope it stays that way! But we can't have a jobs market where political correctness is too afraid to step in to prevent all our skilled industry being outsourced to foreign countries. The fact the the government has no idea of the numbers of legal immigrants makes me terrified of the number here illegally.
Flamin_Squirrel
31-10-07, 01:30 PM
IMHO people have got so used to the lies and misrepresentations coming from this mendacious government that they don't get worked up about it any more.
That in its self is something to get worked up about, but people are more interested in what the McCanns are up to than what's going on in government.
People get the government they deserve.
Flamin_Squirrel
31-10-07, 01:45 PM
But we can't have a jobs market where political correctness is too afraid to step in to prevent all our skilled industry being outsourced to foreign countries. The fact the the government has no idea of the numbers of legal immigrants makes me terrified of the number here illegally.
As said above, a lot of immigrants with more useful skills are willing to work harder than a lot of Brits for less money.
We have to trade with the rest of the world. Primary and secondary services are pretty much dead here, because we've become too expensive. The only thing we really have to offer at a price that the rest of the world are prepared to pay for are high level financial and technical services.
We can only embrace the development of Poland etc and use it as motivation to work harder and develop even further, lest we rest on our laurels until the rest of the world can do everything we can at half the price and we're left redundant.
The government getting all protectionist by baring foriegn workers or trying to prevent work being outsourced to other countries because we've got an entire work force of numpties won't work in the long run.
My take as an immigrant worker to the whole story.....
Don't be amazed people! I come from Greece and the exact same thing happened when Albanians started crossing the border. They worked for peanuts to get a start in a better life. They worked harder than the locals and would take on jobs that other people would not. It's the same everywhere with immigrants.
Now here in the UK the problem as I see it is that you have to many people shouting about peoples rights :)))) don't deport X cause it is dangerous in his country. Keep him here and let him claim benefits and be a criminal. On the other hand pay is a lot better here than it would in Greece so my quality of life is better here than back home.
Overall immigrants do work harder cause they need to survive. I know I work a lot harder than my british white colleagues hence why I earn more than they do and get promotions before they do.....but can't see how this is my fault (or in generally an immigrants fault).
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 02:21 PM
My take as an immigrant worker to the whole story.....
Don't be amazed people! I come from Greece and the exact same thing happened when Albanians started crossing the border. They worked for peanuts to get a start in a better life. They worked harder than the locals and would take on jobs that other people would not. It's the same everywhere with immigrants.
Now here in the UK the problem as I see it is that you have to many people shouting about peoples rights :)))) don't deport X cause it is dangerous in his country. Keep him here and let him claim benefits and be a criminal. On the other hand pay is a lot better here than it would in Greece so my quality of life is better here than back home.
Overall immigrants do work harder cause they need to survive. I know I work a lot harder than my british white colleagues hence why I earn more than they do and get promotions before they do.....but can't see how this is my fault (or in generally an immigrants fault).
It's not, we should embrace any benefits we can get. But what role does the government have other than to support the people who pay for it? By keeping no record of what's happening here we can't even make an informed desicion as to whether immigration limits would help us. The government should not be looking for economic gain over the personal wealth of the people it 'serves'
I do think however that the Government is meant to be working for us, and taking care of its nationals first.
This is an excellent point:thumbsup:
ASM-Forever
31-10-07, 02:40 PM
So the pattern emerging is that every immigrant is a hard worker/works harder than the local.....surely not. :)
Whilst i've had a some Polish(immigrant) plumbers/electricians, who have done good work, there are as many incompetent cowboy immigrant labourers as there are nationals.
Lets not get into the mindset, where every immigrant is harder working/better etc....as thats complete ********. Some are good, some are bad.
Warthog
31-10-07, 02:42 PM
My main worry is overpopulation full stop. I couldn't get petrol on Saturday cos there were queues at 2 different petrol stations, and Sainsburies was rammed. Every road into Oxford is always gridlocked. I don't care if its migrants, nationals or aliens, I think the government really needs to cap our out of control population growth. Apparently at this rate we will hit 71 million in another 14 years! The increased traffic makes more problems, more congestion is more polution, is more wasted petrol, it just makes everything exponentially worse :(.
Pedrosa
31-10-07, 02:46 PM
That in its self is something to get worked up about, but people are more interested in what the McCanns are up to than what's going on in government.
People get the government they deserve.
I am surprised at your use of such a far sweeping statement as that FS. There are many instances that would counter your point. Unless that is you mean that given how a democracy works,if people fail to voice their strong objections to certain issues then they have no room for complaint, when their concerns are never addressed?:confused:
My main worry is overpopulation full stop. I couldn't get petrol on Saturday cos there were queues at 2 different petrol stations, and Sainsburies was rammed. Every road into Oxford is always gridlocked. I don't care if its migrants, nationals or aliens, I think the government really needs to cap our out of control population growth. Apparently at this rate we will hit 71 million in another 14 years! The increased traffic makes more problems, more congestion is more polution, is more wasted petrol, it just makes everything exponentially worse :(.
...plus more demand on other infrastructure. So we need a government that spends money on schools and hospitals. Shame that the one that purports to do so is intrinsically self-serving and dishonest. Ah, what goes around comes around:smt045
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 03:19 PM
I seem to recall sleaze and economic mismanagement being the downfall of the previous Tory regime as well though Ed.Truth is they all do it,power being the corrupter and absolute power being---well you get the gist.
They all lie and cheat,and those that have integrity tend to go nowhere in political life.
Flamin_Squirrel
31-10-07, 03:26 PM
I am surprised at your use of such a far sweeping statement as that FS. There are many instances that would counter your point.
Such as?!
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 03:26 PM
It's sad. But considering that 75-80% of all money earnt must go to the government, you'd think we'd have things like a decent transport network, and education system that was vaguely acceptable and taxation laws that leave a low earner like myself having to take on two jobs.
Pedrosa
31-10-07, 03:44 PM
Such as?!
Burma and China instantly come to mind? Iran maybe? Are they really regimes that the people "deserve"?
For the hell of it:
Sudan
Sri Lanka
Uzbekistan
Azerbajan
Georgia
Sierra Leone
Cuba
Venezuela
Flamin_Squirrel
31-10-07, 03:59 PM
Burma and China instantly come to mind? Iran maybe? Are they really regimes that the people "deserve"?
For the hell of it:
Sudan
Sri Lanka
Uzbekistan
Azerbajan
Georgia
Sierra Leone
Cuba
Venezuela
Ah, sorry I missed a disclaimer, I ment democratic governments.
Pedrosa
31-10-07, 04:43 PM
Ah, sorry I missed a disclaimer, I ment democratic governments.
I knew where you were coming from fella, I was only joshing with you.;)
Venezuela though is a democratically elected government led by that lunatic Chavez who is presently trying to push through a change to the constitution that will allow him to be re elected for ever and a day which is mightily scary.
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 05:39 PM
I dont think the premise holds even for democratic governments unless we are talking about true democracy which doesnt exist.
Here in blighty for example general elections are decided by a very small number of floating voters in a couple of dozen marginal seats.Maybe 20-30.000 voters effectively decide the outcome.Conversely where I live,a safe Tory seat,it matters not a jot how I vote as the result is always the same.
Similarly in America I recall Bush got in on the strength of a tiny number of (as it turns out)fiddled votes in Florida.These things tend to be decided by those rather more powerful than us mere voters I feel,at least where it matters.
We've had Poles, Hungarians, Portugese, Somalians, Czechs and Romanians at my work place. Some were hard working, some weren't. Some spoke good English, some spoke so little that training them properly in the use of the machinery was almost impossible. I don't have a problem with them coming here to work, but I do have a problem if the language barrier prevents them from understanding the safety requirements of the job. I don't want to be dismantling a saw to remove the fingers of someone who didn't understand about the proper use of the guards. And no, I'm not being alarmist. I had to deal with one of our Polish workers on Friday who had almost totally severed his right index finger in the wood saw.
redbouy
31-10-07, 06:20 PM
I suppose Im one of those workers that have moved into a job that the locals do not want. I would say we have about a 2% French 5% Italain 10% NZ 10% Aussie 30% Englsih 20% US and a mix of the rest. But the French will not work and have to many problems. Brits work well out side the Uk Kiwis work well outside NZ. Maybe its the ppl with the get up and go, that are getting and to a new place?? Is that why they work harder??
What I find funny is why the UK. I love the Uk, but Im a kiwi. Lots of ppl. cold rainy, a bit pricey, :confused:
Franch italy Spain warm sunny, closer to home for most. Not so many ppl.
My industry has a huge shortage of ppl. I will take any one on that can "sort of" do the job. I have to fly ppl around the world and bring them here, but the French will not even walk down the dock and ask about them.
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 06:37 PM
When Ive finally had enough of this cold wet overcrowded island Ill be down there to apply for a job.:)
How is San Raphael and Les Illes De Porquerolles these days?;)
redbouy
31-10-07, 06:46 PM
Every where was busy, Never even got a look in at St Tropez all summer:mad:. and that was after a few K tip. You guys might have got the rain, we got ALL the wind, never seen it so windy all the time.
Opps sorry for the derail 8-[
Biker Biggles
31-10-07, 06:55 PM
I used to sail boats around there.The Mistral wind used to blast you down to Corsica or Spain then just die away to nothing.A few days later would see another gale to hopefully blast you back again.
The less trendy Spanish end was always nicer I thought.
Further derail alert.:rolleyes:
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 07:18 PM
what do you do redbouy?
redbouy
31-10-07, 07:22 PM
best we had this year was 90+ knots. I say plus cause the gauge stopped there. peged for 5 min.s 400 mtrs of chain. 5000 hp mains 300 hp Bt and we held still !!!.
Many others wheren't so lucky.
But would you move here. ?? Not many jobs unless you like boating and IT.
There is some sort of driving thing some times :rolleyes: not sure how to get a leg in to that.
how society will deal with our own native un-skilled, no-hoper, stars-in-their-x-factor generation-eyes, the-world-owes-me-a-living scum that has been borne out of a long period of financial growth and stability.
:smt038:smt038:smt038:smt038:smt038
Why the h*ll do so many young people dream of being pop stars and actors instead of dreaming of being scientists, lawyers, doctors, inventors?
redbouy
31-10-07, 09:24 PM
I drive [captain] a super yacht [google] spend most of the time round south France Italy area.
redbouy
31-10-07, 09:26 PM
We, and I mean the "older one's" have made the world our kids grow up in. So some of the blame must be on us.
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 09:30 PM
I drive [captain] a super yacht [google] spend most of the time round south France Italy area.
Awesome. I seriously considered this as a career at the end of 6th form, going on some super expensive course in southampton or isle of wight (or somewhere like that- too long ago now). The lifestyle good?
eviltwin
31-10-07, 09:49 PM
Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons....
...who has the right to say that a person shouldn't go wherever the hell they like? If I fancied working in Russia, Dubai, France or wherever, why should I be stopped? We like to reap the benefits of the 'free market' capitalist system when it inhales and we ride the up wave. Stands to reason that it also has a downside at times.
When a migrant worker (emphasise the word worker) arrives in a country, they are a part of that country. The government of a nation state doesn't exist to 'serve' people who have a certain birth status. The fact that the migrant is working means that they are, by definition, a contributory part of the national interest.
redbouy
31-10-07, 09:51 PM
Its diffrent I will give u that. Same as any job has its good points and bad. Most ppl just show up. no course's My Chief engineer is a chef.
I finished my last boat because 2 day off in 2 years. thats 2 as in 363 days work. So now I work on smaller boats and have the whole winter as a normal person.
You can travel all over, pay is ok. but you dont pay tax. well not for the last 15 years. :rolleyes:
But the best partis. It is only you holding you back. Want to be the engineer/chef/captain go for it. Get in to IT. be a helicopter pilot yep. no ticket just do it.
Some of the new boats are now 170 mtrs crews of 70 or so. Warshhips are about 130 mtrs. The rich are getting richer. more boats are being made and we have major problems getting crew now. In fact i think some of the crew agents try and get the RN guys.
redbouy
31-10-07, 09:53 PM
As long as the "new" worker pay's his way. and is not just getting away from the law in their own home.
gettin2dizzy
31-10-07, 10:16 PM
Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons....
...who has the right to say that a person shouldn't go wherever the hell they like? If I fancied working in Russia, Dubai, France or wherever, why should I be stopped? We like to reap the benefits of the 'free market' capitalist system when it inhales and we ride the up wave. Stands to reason that it also has a downside at times.
When a migrant worker (emphasise the word worker) arrives in a country, they are a part of that country. The government of a nation state doesn't exist to 'serve' people who have a certain birth status. The fact that the migrant is working means that they are, by definition, a contributory part of the national interest.
I beg to differ. The British government is that, British - not a registered charity. Whilst it is in our national interest to boost the economy with workers, the additional money all ends up in the hands of the mega rich anyway, what the economy does doesn't affect us. I'd rather any day of the week that the people in Britain were given the jobs - even if they do a poorer job because a nation full of unemployed uneducated brits with no hope in life sponging off the rest of us because we recruited in some skilled foreign workers is not going to help.
In an ideal world we could send the brits away as a trade.
eviltwin
31-10-07, 10:19 PM
More cats & pigeons...
...strange...plenty of talk about Polish plumbers. No mention of Gurkhas
redbouy
31-10-07, 10:38 PM
If the ppl do a poor job the produce becomes low grade. No one buys it company down the tubes. But even now the new workers of the 60/70's will no longer do what they did before, So new/new workers are needed.
Do all young workers start off on the same foot, look at the amount of imports that work in bars and servering jobs in london. we all know London is pricey but they all manage, why can't the locals. The locals must have an advantage over the imports as they arrive with very little and need to buy it all.
eviltwin
31-10-07, 10:42 PM
the additional money all ends up in the hands of the mega rich anyway, what the economy does doesn't affect us.
Whoa there. I note you live in South Wales. Let's forget Patagonia...Wales enjoyed and supported a huge immigrant population - I enjoyed the legacy, with the nice ice cream in Cardiff, when I lived there.
As for money ending up in the hands of the mega rich, I also enjoyed free prescriptions until the age of 25 - courtesy of the tax pot!
I'd rather any day of the week that the people in Britain were given the jobs - even if they do a poorer job because a nation full of unemployed uneducated brits with no hope in life sponging off the rest of us because we recruited in some skilled foreign workers is not going to help.
Surely, you can see the problem with this?
If you or a loved one was critically ill and you could choose between two doctors, one being a mediocre British doctor, the other an excellent African/Asian/Polish etc doctor, who would you choose?
I can't speak for any other profession, but definitely the majority of immigrants who work in health care are here at the invitation of the British government.
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 08:34 AM
Surely, you can see the problem with this?
If you or a loved one was critically ill and you could choose between two doctors, one being a mediocre British doctor, the other an excellent African/Asian/Polish etc doctor, who would you choose?
I can't speak for any other profession, but definitely the majority of immigrants who work in health care are here at the invitation of the British government.
That's a different matter. I'd rather go to a doctor trained in a reputable country, British especially. I'm not making an argument for banning migrants, as I said earlier the one thing I like about England is that it is multicultural; so I feel comfortable saying there needs to be tabs kept for the numbers coming in.
The majority of work being taken is low payed, unskilled work as well as skilled labour work. If these workers take all of the low payed work Britains asbo classes can only expand. Whilst it could help the ecomony this is only going to happen at the expense of the lower classes in Britain. Whilst in an ideal world it would bring money to Britain, in reality it would create a large, angry, uneducated, unmotivated, crime ridden sector of society. This sector will not only make our life hell, but we'll pick up the bill for it
Flamin_Squirrel
01-11-07, 09:53 AM
Whilst in an ideal world it would bring money to Britain, in reality it would create a large, angry, uneducated, unmotivated, crime ridden sector of society. This sector will not only make our life hell, but we'll pick up the bill for it
That's happening anyway, you can't blame it on immigration.
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 09:58 AM
That's happening anyway, you can't blame it on immigration.
True. :???:
It's scary a generation now is 16 years.... and they go on to spawn .. I mean have 4-5 children.
That's a different matter. I'd rather go to a doctor trained in a reputable country, British especially. I'm not making an argument for banning migrants, as I said earlier the one thing I like about England is that it is multicultural; so I feel comfortable saying there needs to be tabs kept for the numbers coming in.
The majority of work being taken is low payed, unskilled work as well as skilled labour work. If these workers take all of the low payed work Britains asbo classes can only expand. Whilst it could help the ecomony this is only going to happen at the expense of the lower classes in Britain. Whilst in an ideal world it would bring money to Britain, in reality it would create a large, angry, uneducated, unmotivated, crime ridden sector of society. This sector will not only make our life hell, but we'll pick up the bill for it
I don't think it's a different matter. If you are advocating for a system in which a person who is not necessarily the best qualified for a job, gets the job over an immigrant purely because they are a British national, then you end up with a sub standard service. If the government invites/allows economic migration, then the best woman or man should get the job.
I do agree that there needs to be better monitoring of immigration, but as long as there are unskilled, low paid jobs that the British do not want to take on, then I can't see how immigrants can be blamed for the 'creation of a large, angry, uneducated, unmotivated, crime ridden sector of the society.'
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 10:22 AM
I don't think it's a different matter. If you are advocating for a system in which a person who is not necessarily the best qualified for a job, gets the job over an immigrant purely because they are a British national, then you end up with a sub standard service. If the government invites/allows economic migration, then the best woman or man should get the job.
I do agree that there needs to be better monitoring of immigration, but as long as there are unskilled, low paid jobs that the British do not want to take on, then I can't see how immigrants can be blamed for the 'creation of a large, angry, uneducated, unmotivated, crime ridden sector of the society.'
The government can take the blame. Letting immigrants in is a short term solution to a long term problem. By doing so it removes the need to train the asbo classes getting them in to work. I'm advocating a system that looks after the nation first. As well as a strong economy it should be fighting for a country that is worth living in. If there is unskilled low paid jobs going, why aren't these brits made to do these jobs? Because they have such an easy time at the moment. Why are immigrants prepared to work so much harder? Because their system of government does not include sky digital in their job dodgers allowance!
Professionals are a different matter entirely, they are people who have spent around 16 years in education and aren't looking for a easy way out and shouldn't be tarred with the same brush.
This country has limitd resources, limited space and a government with limited foresight.
And from todays news
Immigration is placing increased pressure on services such as schools and hospitals, a report has claimed.
The Local Government Association is calling for a ?250m-a-year fund to help regions struggling to cope with unexpected influxes of migrants.
Pedrosa
01-11-07, 12:12 PM
A country cannot merely take on immigrants only when it suits them.Like for example getting them to fight for you in wars. A country cannot only benefit from many years of economical plundering of foreign lands and then turn their back on all future responsibilities. This is a dilemma faced by other european countries who engaged in empire building in the past.
Again at times the arrogant island mentality of the UK clouds over the benefits that people of different cultures can bring. How boring a place would the UK be without the rich tapestry of foreigners?
If massive numbers of foreigners are working in the UK it is because they are prepared to do so and for the renumeration offered. Are they to blame for the ever increasing materialistic view of the born and bred citizens? The type that nowadays sees young couples not even entertaining getting married unless they have every conceivable home appliance and Hi Tech toy that the modern household must have?
It's a global workplace today folks. Just like you move to another town for a job offering better pay and conditions, so are the people from other countries doing it by moving to the UK.
To lay the blame of all present problems on the govermment now in place is frankly ludicrous. Each change of government sees the batten taken up and changes implemented to address where the situation stands at the time. It is an evolvement of succesive policies and thinking and economical challenges. It may well be that this system can only lead to a cul de sac some years ahead. But if that happens it will not by any stretch of the imagination be the complete fault of whichever administration holds the reins at the given time.
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 12:44 PM
A country cannot merely take on immigrants only when it suits them.Like for example getting them to fight for you in wars. A country cannot only benefit from many years of economical plundering of foreign lands and ........batten taken up and changes implemented to address where the situation stands at the time. It is an evolvement of succesive policies and thinking and economical challenges. It may well be that this system can only lead to a cul de sac some years ahead. But if that happens it will not by any stretch of the imagination be the complete fault of whichever administration holds the reins at the given time.
Yes, and Britain is a multicultural society, and should thrive for it. There's a large difference between limiting and selecting the immigrants that arrive in this country than banning them altogether. Theres a romantic viewpoint held by a large number of people who view themselves as modern, multicultural and perhaps wanting to appear accepting.
By taking this romantic viewpoint immigrants can do no wrong; we'll all be employing plumbers with PHDs that will help father your children whilst you aren't looking whilst only charging for materials. In reality there's such a diverse attitude difference whether it is across nationals, races or individuals. Whilst the Polish have earnt a reputation for being hard workers in the press where is the coverage about Somali immigrants that appear with huge families and no means of support? In London it is widely accepted that organised Romanian gangs are responsible for the majority of motorcycle theft, and why is it deemed racist to question the segregated Asian mini-towns cropping up in every city around the UK that pile the streets with rubbish and treat white women like third class citizens?
An individual government can not be blamed but Britain has for a long time had a single Government under different guises and will continute to do so; I'm not talking conpiracies, just in their attitude.
The number of indiginous Brits that have moved abroad in the past few years proves how serious this situation is becomming.
If you want to be seen as fashionably accepting. Buy the Guardian
Pedrosa
01-11-07, 12:53 PM
Yes, and Britain is a multicultural society, and should thrive for it. There's a large difference between limiting and selecting the immigrants that arrive in this country than banning them altogether. Theres a romantic viewpoint held by a large number of people who view themselves as modern, multicultural and perhaps wanting to appear accepting.
By taking this romantic viewpoint immigrants can do no wrong; we'll all be employing plumbers with PHDs that will help father your children whilst you aren't looking whilst only charging for materials. In reality there's such a diverse attitude difference whether it is across nationals, races or individuals. Whilst the Polish have earnt a reputation for being hard workers in the press where is the coverage about Somali immigrants that appear with huge families and no means of support? In London it is widely accepted that organised Romanian gangs are responsible for the majority of motorcycle theft, and why is it deemed racist to question the segregated Asian mini-towns cropping up in every city around the UK that pile the streets with rubbish and treat white women like third class citizens?
An individual government can not be blamed but Britain has for a long time had a single Government under different guises and will continute to do so; I'm not talking conpiracies, just in their attitude.
The number of indiginous Brits that have moved abroad in the past few years proves how serious this situation is becomming.
If you want to be seen as fashionably accepting. Buy the Guardian
Personally I neither have romantic nor fashionable notions on this topic. I am after all an "immigrant" myself and have been so for the past 7 years.
I could consider myself as part of the "brain drain" of people that have left theUk.But that would be pushing a point way too far! LOL
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 12:55 PM
Personally I neither have romantic nor fashionable notions on this topic. I am after all an "immigrant" myself and have been so for the past 7 years.
:farao:
Flamin_Squirrel
01-11-07, 12:58 PM
Yes, and Britain is a multicultural society, and should thrive for it. There's a large difference between limiting and selecting the immigrants that arrive in this country than banning them altogether. Theres a romantic viewpoint held by a large number of people who view themselves as modern, multicultural and perhaps wanting to appear accepting.
By taking this romantic viewpoint immigrants can do no wrong; we'll all be employing plumbers with PHDs that will help father your children whilst you aren't looking whilst only charging for materials. In reality there's such a diverse attitude difference whether it is across nationals, races or individuals. Whilst the Polish have earnt a reputation for being hard workers in the press where is the coverage about Somali immigrants that appear with huge families and no means of support? In London it is widely accepted that organised Romanian gangs are responsible for the majority of motorcycle theft, and why is it deemed racist to question the segregated Asian mini-towns cropping up in every city around the UK that pile the streets with rubbish and treat white women like third class citizens?
An individual government can not be blamed but Britain has for a long time had a single Government under different guises and will continute to do so; I'm not talking conpiracies, just in their attitude.
The number of indiginous Brits that have moved abroad in the past few years proves how serious this situation is becomming.
If you want to be seen as fashionably accepting. Buy the Guardian
While you may have some valid points there, your over all conclusion is flawed.
First, the government is the way it is because we, as a country, accept it.
Secondly, dispite the number of immigrants that might (or might not) be coming into this country, they are still a minority. Therefore, those that have the greatest influence on the direction of Britian are, surprise surprise, the British. If British people are leaving in droves, it's because of other Brits, plain and simple.
Pedrosa
01-11-07, 01:02 PM
While you may have some valid points there, your over all conclusion is flawed.
First, the government is the way it is because we, as a country, accept it.
Secondly, dispite the number of immigrants that might (or might not) be coming into this country, they are still a minority. Therefore, those that have the greatest influence on the direction of Britian are, surprise surprise, the British. If British people are leaving in droves, it's because of other Brits, plain and simple.
That is in itself quite damning,but unfortunately I would think...for many people the truth.
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 01:10 PM
While you may have some valid points there, your over all conclusion is flawed.
First, the government is the way it is because we, as a country, accept it.
Secondly, dispite the number of immigrants that might (or might not) be coming into this country, they are still a minority. Therefore, those that have the greatest influence on the direction of Britian are, surprise surprise, the British. If British people are leaving in droves, it's because of other Brits, plain and simple.
True in principle. But what the governement does is ruled by the guy with the big $$. We're mere pawns in their big game of personal wealth. If you ever set foot in the government you'd be answering to the likes of Murdoch: the man with the majority of the population under his influence; never mind the world.
The world banks hold the power to change everything in our everyday life more than we could ever imagine. The governments know this and are mere slaves to it.
Having a vote keeps the population thinking they have some kind of say in the whole process when we all know they do whatever they want.
As for working out what 'minority' the immigrants are with no numbers even for the past year, never mind 30! it is an impossible task. Another factor is when does someone become a resident national rather than an immigrant? If someone doesn't integrate with society; as far as I'm concerned, never.
In London it is widely accepted that organised Romanian gangs are responsible for the majority of motorcycle theft
That's the first I hear of that one. Any chance you have some links to corroborate it?
I have heard about the cash machine fraud.
licoricepizza
01-11-07, 01:14 PM
The real problem is not the immigrants, it's the warped view of entitlement. We have a considerable problem in the UK with the number of people on unemployment benefit, many believing that their entitlement is a right rather than a benefit. Similarly with incapacity benefit, particularly here in the north east. I am not suggesting for a minute that genuinely unemployed or incapacitated people are not deserving of support from the government, however the level of support is so great and easily attainable that abuse is rife.
The idea that being born in a particular place entitles you to more than someone who was born elsewhere is equally misguided, and put bluntly, xenophobic. It should be your contribution that should be recognised rather than your nationality. You cannot reasonably argue that you should be more concerned about a non-working foreigner taking from the state than a non-working national, that's absurd. It's the same in the case for the employed too. It is often argued that your heritage makes you more entitled, "My father fought for this county" for example. So what? That made your father entitled, not you.
Who's to blame? Partly the government, partly the media, but mainly ourselves. We are frighteningly selfish, materialistic and isolated as a people, more so than any time in history. We send our mothers and fathers to nursing homes when they become a nuisance, we tolerate inequality for women out of respect for beliefs. Two million children in the UK live in poverty, but as long as we're OK... That's the mindset. We have bigger problems than immigration.
The truth is that people are scared of immigrants becoming more successful than they are. Fear and Loathing. I'm scared of it so I'll dislike it. If that's the calibre of my countrymen, then please keep sending in the foreigners.
licoricepizza
01-11-07, 01:15 PM
Hello to everyone by the way. I'm new, but have been reading for a bit. Looks like a great forum. J
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 01:28 PM
The real problem is not the immigrants, it's the warped view of entitlement. We have a considerable problem in the UK with the number of people on unemployment benefit, many believing that their entitlement is a right rather than a benefit. Similarly with incapacity benefit, particularly here in the north east. I am not suggesting for a minute that genuinely unemployed or incapacitated people are not deserving of support from the government, however the level of support is so great and easily attainable that abuse is rife.
The idea that being born in a particular place entitles you to more than someone who was born elsewhere is equally misguided, and put bluntly, xenophobic. It should be your contribution that should be recognised rather than your nationality. You cannot reasonably argue that you should be more concerned about a non-working foreigner taking from the state than a non-working national, that's absurd. It's the same in the case for the employed too. It is often argued that your heritage makes you more entitled, "My father fought for this county" for example. So what? That made your father entitled, not you.
Who's to blame? Partly the government, partly the media, but mainly ourselves. We are frighteningly selfish, materialistic and isolated as a people, more so than any time in history. We send our mothers and fathers to nursing homes when they become a nuisance, we tolerate inequality for women out of respect for beliefs. Two million children in the UK live in poverty, but as long as we're OK... That's the mindset. We have bigger problems than immigration.
The truth is that people are scared of immigrants becoming more successful than they are. Fear and Loathing. I'm scared of it so I'll dislike it. If that's the calibre of my countrymen, then please keep sending in the foreigners.
Fundamentally I totally agree with that, but the concern for me is what happens when the lazy brits we both despise so much are so outclassed that they develop their own underworld (so to speak) to which we, the working population support. Do we turn like america where we pretend that we don't know of any poverty/suffering/crime? And then 'require' large forces of armed police to protect us by withdrawing any freedoms we have now? :smt066Do we than have to reduce the support we can give them both medically and financially and force them in to even more poverty?
If you were to view this as a business, you would never ever expand until you found yourself in a confident position to do so, otherwise the problems will just become larger, out of control and irreversible until collapse.
Flamin_Squirrel
01-11-07, 01:38 PM
True in principle. But what the governement does is ruled by the guy with the big $$. We're mere pawns in their big game of personal wealth. If you ever set foot in the government you'd be answering to the likes of Murdoch: the man with the majority of the population under his influence; never mind the world.
The world banks hold the power to change everything in our everyday life more than we could ever imagine. The governments know this and are mere slaves to it.
Having a vote keeps the population thinking they have some kind of say in the whole process when we all know they do whatever they want.
As for working out what 'minority' the immigrants are with no numbers even for the past year, never mind 30! it is an impossible task. Another factor is when does someone become a resident national rather than an immigrant? If someone doesn't integrate with society; as far as I'm concerned, never.
You sound like a communist!
Us lowly masses are the ones that hold the vote and the power to change things. We choose not to. Simple as.
gettin2dizzy
01-11-07, 02:41 PM
You sound like a communist!
Us lowly masses are the ones that hold the vote and the power to change things. We choose not to. Simple as.
Hehe. Even my sense of humour isn't good enough to call myself a communist. More of a realist ;)
licoricepizza
01-11-07, 02:42 PM
Fundamentally I totally agree with that, but the concern for me is what happens when the lazy brits we both despise so much are so outclassed that they develop their own underworld (so to speak) to which we, the working population support. Do we turn like america where we pretend that we don't know of any poverty/suffering/crime? And then 'require' large forces of armed police to protect us by withdrawing any freedoms we have now? :smt066Do we than have to reduce the support we can give them both medically and financially and force them in to even more poverty?
If you were to view this as a business, you would never ever expand until you found yourself in a confident position to do so, otherwise the problems will just become larger, out of control and irreversible until collapse.
The creation of the 'underworld', is again, our own fault. There's an irony in worrying about foreigners 'coming here and taking our jobs' when for years we have been sending our jobs to other countries, in manufacturing, agriculture etc.. For what? To save us money so we can have more. In other words, greed.
In regard to giving up freedoms, that is a product of government propaganda. It's only in their interest to restrict the population, not the population's. I don't think that the current trend is anything other than opportunism by the government due to the apathy of the average voter. The American political author Thomas Paine said "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government". Funnily enough, he was an immigrant from Britain.
Pedrosa
01-11-07, 02:54 PM
The real problem is not the immigrants, it's the warped view of entitlement. We have a considerable problem in the UK with the number of people on unemployment benefit, many believing that their entitlement is a right rather than a benefit. Similarly with incapacity benefit, particularly here in the north east. I am not suggesting for a minute that genuinely unemployed or incapacitated people are not deserving of support from the government, however the level of support is so great and easily attainable that abuse is rife.
The idea that being born in a particular place entitles you to more than someone who was born elsewhere is equally misguided, and put bluntly, xenophobic. It should be your contribution that should be recognised rather than your nationality. You cannot reasonably argue that you should be more concerned about a non-working foreigner taking from the state than a non-working national, that's absurd. It's the same in the case for the employed too. It is often argued that your heritage makes you more entitled, "My father fought for this county" for example. So what? That made your father entitled, not you.
Who's to blame? Partly the government, partly the media, but mainly ourselves. We are frighteningly selfish, materialistic and isolated as a people, more so than any time in history. We send our mothers and fathers to nursing homes when they become a nuisance, we tolerate inequality for women out of respect for beliefs. Two million children in the UK live in poverty, but as long as we're OK... That's the mindset. We have bigger problems than immigration.
The truth is that people are scared of immigrants becoming more successful than they are. Fear and Loathing. I'm scared of it so I'll dislike it. If that's the calibre of my countrymen, then please keep sending in the foreigners.
Very well composed input if you don't mind me saying.:smt045
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