Re: Spineless
 

Yes we did, in 1979. Then he achieved british citizenship in 1984. Hardly the same thing. And then, we deported him. He wouldn't have been allowed in today with his history, under current laws, but that's not the situation at all is it. Blame Margaret Thatcher if you like, she was PM when he entered the country and when he got his british citizenship ;)

On the other hand, we did refuse entry to Louis Farrakhan, and Yusuf alquaradi, so it's just absolute nonsense to suggest that muslims are treated differently.

I've not seen the film but he built his career on trading on fear and prejudice, and claims to be a libertarian while clamping down on other people's personal freedom, and cries out at offences against his freedom of speech while actively repressing other people's, so I'm going to make the kneejerk conclusion that he's a worthless s**tehawk.

I'm not afraid of free speech like some but the fact is he's getting the exact same treatment that other preachers of hate, whether it's against judaism or animal viviseciton or homosexuality, have already been getting, and I didn't see anyone complaining when Jerry Vlazak was refused entry, or a big post about how spineless we were to ban Farrakhan... I think some people just approve more of anti-islamic sentiment tbh.

Re: Spineless
 

Having just watched Fitna in its entirety I came to some conclusions

1) I have to get a copy of the Qur'an frp, a trusted source. Then see if what he quotes exists in the text.

I believe that it will - I dont think he is THAT stupid to deliberately misquote, but there may be mitigating context around the parts he chose.

2) He picked the images to go with the quotes beautifully, but so well that it made me feel that I was being manipulated.

Re: Spineless
 

Always about context made... And also translation of course. islamicity has one online translation.

The screen grab everyone uses is the plane about to hit the tower, with surah 8 verse 60 beside it. Here it is in context, which shows the full meaning to be completely different from the general call to arms and to spread terror that he suggests it is.

"58. If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

He's used it because of the reference to striking terror, but of course that's not what it actually says- instead it's "Make ready your strength to make them afraid (ie, sabre rattle) but don't fight them if they incline towards peace". If anything, it's a message against attacks like 9/11, not for.


I like to say, when people quote the verse of the sword or something like the passage above, that it's like saying "We shall fight them on the beaches" was justification for the mods and rockers at brighton :mrgreen:

Re: Spineless
 

Sorry but the guy is a slug... He is currently being sued over here as some of the images are not of terrorists as claimed, but of a Dutch rapper. (I am not sure if he has corrected this yet but...)

I love free speech as much as the next man, but that is not what Wilders is about. He is pure and simple anti anything that is not Dutch, the same as the extremists are anti everything but. And the guy with the hook? Wilders was calling for him to be banned from NL just as he himself is banned from the UK now. That sounds fairly equal treatment to me :)

The really stupid thing is that he was allowed in the country a few weeks ago, but when it got some publicity he was banned form coming into the country...

Re: Spineless
 

Whilst watching the beeb on the red sofa this morning I watched a pair that they brought on to discuss this matter, one was some sort of Mp lady, and the other a muslim man from some sort of council or another. I was surprised to hear that both of them were in agreement that they should have let the guy in. The muslim man said theres a line of refusing someone 'for having violent intentions' snd everyone is entitled to free speech, he made it clear that this guy should not be put in the same category as Farrakhan, he went on to say, sure there are people within communities that will be offended by what is in the film, etc, but theres plenty more that will not.

Its actually the first time I can recall the beeb getting a muslim representative on that has been more positive about this sort of situation, that hasn't gone mouthing off that its disgusting etc etc. The female MP said that she didn't agree with censorship, but she found offense in the film too. A much better debate I feel.

Re: Spineless
 

I haven't yet seen the film, but whenever there is a debate about freedom of speech I am reminded of the words of Voltaire:

'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'

I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent, able to think and act of my own free will, able to make judgements and decisions based upon the facts presented and that I am considerate towards the needs/beliefs of others.

It does frustrate me to think that the government think that I am incapable of the above and need "protect" me by refusing entry to someone into this country.

If I don't like what I'm hearing I'll walk away/switch channels/tune to a different frequency.................................

Re: Spineless
 

[quote=Mr Speirs;1782584][quote=gettin2dizzy;1782560]It would be good if the Muslims themselves could choose a single spelling!
Not to be pedantic, but the Qur'an is actually spelt by muslims in arabic writing! Plus the Qur'an is untranslatable, so technically no way that we spell it in English is really correct, its not a patch on the real arabic version :)

Re: Spineless
 

See I agree with you on this.

The guy that got refused entry however IS a manipulative bigot, if he was British he would be in the BNP, so I guess that makes him NNP or something similar.

Knob-ends like that SHOULD be banned from leaving their own country.

Yes I have concerns about the way that the UK seems to be forced to change due to pressure from people not born here, or the amount I seem to be spending to keep people who have never paid into our Social Security system in a lifestyle I find myself envying, especially when they bypassed at least one other country before making an asylum claim.....

However those are specific cases I can point to - not just some religion based Bogeyman.