Gaza and Israel
 

Hey folks,

For someone who is decidedly into History and current affairs, I have to admit I know very little (read nothing) about the conflict going on.

Anybody care to enlighten me?

Gaza and Israel
 

One bunch of ass holes doesn't like another bunch of ass holes and they have decided to bomb the shyte out of each other.

The rest of the world takes what one side says as gospel and backs them up (Israel) despite the fact that they are wounding and killing civilians. Oh and they have bigger guns

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Two tribes competing over the same bit of land/limited resourses results in much bloodshed.Yes there are historical details,but this is much the same as any other conflict throughout history.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

I spent way too long reading and watching video's on the history behind it a few weeks ago.

Basically we (as in the British) promised Palestine to 3 different groups during World War II in return for fighting against the Nazi's. After the war a (not particularly fair) dishing out of the country happened.

As soon as the British pulled out of Palestine the state of Israel was formed, and was promptly attacked by 5 different armies on the same day. The Jews fought back and eventually won the Israel Arab war. Through no small part, due to the training the received from the British army.

Since then they have proceeded to occupy far more than the lands originally given to them and have pushed the Palestinians out.

They have turned Gaza into the worlds largest open air prison. Blockaded from land and sea.

Yes, Hamas fire rockets into Israel. However, these are mere fireworks compared to the might of the Israel army. Their American funded missile defence shield prevents what few of these rockets actually go in roughly the right direction from hitting their targets.

In the last 15 years 28 Israelis have died from these rocket attacks. In the current Gaza conflict alone over 1000 Palestinians have died.

If you take away one thing from reading this then let it be that this is not a war of equals.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Occupation and Ethnic Cleansing. Pure and simple.


Very reminiscent of the 1974 invasion of Cyprus, on many levels.


Gaza is a similar size to Leeds, in fact I believe Leeds to be slightly bigger. Israel is about a third of the size of England. Gaza is inhabited by about 1.85 million people. Average age is about 30yrs(or there abouts according to one report). Kind of puts the land and population into perspective a little.


Israel have far more sophisticated weaponary than Hamas do, perfectly obvious by the casualty statistics. As above Gaza is totally blocked in for those casualties to escape. Egypt have blocked their crossings, I think this was due to the amount of Syrian refugees(might be wrong), Palestinians are far from going to get fair passage through Israel, so where do they go? Swim?

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

A squabble between neighbours.

You reap what you sow. It is a no win situation. Lots of wrongs on both sides.

No one has a moral high ground on this.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

The only people who lose, are the people who are trying to live their lives. Unfortunately, the religious politicians/military running their countries feel it is their god given right to use their people as pawns.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

I'm trying to express how opposed to that view I am without offending you. Honestly, if you read into the history I don't see any way a reasonable person could believe the Palestinian situations is a squabble between neighbours.

Gaza and Israel
 

War is stupid. Needlessly killing thousands of people to gain what is ultimately very little.

What is happening is akin to throwing water balloons at a brick wall. You can throw as many as you like, but you're still the only ones getting wet.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4

Gaza and Israel
 

Can we get a TL;DR please mark? I'm at work and can't watch the vid.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-af...ay-not-my-name

I watched that video over the weekend, I also read this sad article.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Actually, I strongly believe Israel was wrong to hold onto land seized after the wars in 48,66 and 74 (might be out by a year or two). They had might on their side and despite the argument that the areas could be demilitarised to prevent subsequent attacks they decided to hold and illegally settle the regions. Denying the true owners the right to live in peace on their own land.

The Palestinians have reacted to the provocation (Not unsurprisingly) the attacks that have provoked Israeli aggression over the past 20 plus years have lead to a situation where Israel feels it is obliged to pander to its own internal ultra religious right wing by applying the same philosophy, tools and techniques seen in the Warsaw Ghetto. :- concentrate your victim into a single area. Fence them in, starve them. And then dispose of them.

The rest of the world, should have recognised the Palestinian territories as an independent nation state, that way Isreali aggression would be seen as an attack on a soveriegn nation and univerally condemned, UN sanctions impossed etc. similarly Hamas rocket attacks would be seen as an attack on a sovereign nation and sanctions imposed.

Britain/France drew up artificial borders, during ww1 and post WWII zionist migration growing into the 48 war of independance etc is the root cause of territorial squables. US support for Israel means anything in the UN will be vetoed.

So no win for anyone, lots of losses. Nobody can hold their head high.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Unfortunately the rest of the world wouldn't be bothered about the sovereign rights of an independent state, nor be too strict with sanctions either.
Again....see Cyprus for this utterly ridiculous problem that the world dare not intervene in, apart from make a few correct noises on an anniversary of occupation of an EU country, an Independent country. Britain are very good at drawing up borders and allowing others to take advantage of that, then leaving them to fight over it.
The world won't do jack jack plop over Israel bullying Gaza.....its all about the gas folks.

Gaza and Israel
 

May I reiterate my statement.

War is stupid.


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Particularly those wars stamped as 'religious', or between the 'culturally diverse'.
The real every day people, do NOT cause war. Its the fanatics at the top.
This is not every day Jewish people of Israel vs every day Muslims of Palestine.



There are then those caught in the middle, who give shelter, regardless of who you are.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...g-9631777.html

Gaza and Israel
 

Hence "war is stupid."


Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Tim, I had not made that connection but the parallels are shocking. How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another? I ****ing despair of this world.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

The first few sentences illustrate this very well and also around 8 mins


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W00RAwxL7Oo#t=60

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

This is the same issue I just can't understand, I guess they either don't care or somehow believe the "enemy" doesn't feel pain like they do.

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You missed out that the partitioning never actually happened, the Israelis actually seized the country by force prior to the time the partition was to be implemented.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Actually prolonging the conflict prolongs a Jewish Israel.

Look at the birth rates. A one state solution with integrated Islamic/Jewish peoples in Israel would result in a large arab/muslim majority within a few generations.

A two state solution would upset the fanatic elements in Israel and never be accepted by Hamas so wouldn't stop the attacks only allow them to be more effective so thats probably out too.

A fair few of the people in charge of the Soviet "purges" were Jewish.

Apparently when you commit atrocities you merely give others ideas.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Theres also the little televised problem brewing in Libya


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...0FY1E420140729




With many countries closing their embassies and telling their staff to get out of Libya.


The world is going mad!

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Corrected for you DB :)

Gaza and Israel
 

It's also about Twitter and Facebook. For a long time people thought Twitter and FB were about pokes and photos of your lunch. It's really about getting stories told and fast.
In the past Israel controlled access and information on the events, but now news from the West Bank and Gaza comes out and instantly - before the alternative version is created. Suddenly we are finding out what is happening in real time. This time we are receiving news from the enclaves faster and with photos and video.

Many of us like pokes and enjoy photos of your lunch and have set up a system to receive these tittilations in our pocket and all of a sudden we are getting shocking images and running narrative on civilian injuries in a war zone. It is this John Prescott picked up and compared with 1933.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

simple reason for Israel getting yank backup - they are one of the few friends we (the west) have in the area
Cyprus well we did get involved hence the no mans land (every been its totally trippy) and the constant military presence there mainly british forces
as for Israel and Palastine well that aint going to end anytime soon and certainly not with facebook posts

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Just go on Google Earth and you'll get a fairly good idea of what the problem is. Israel stands out as being well organized with plenty of well irrigated laid out fields and infrastructure, the Palestinians on the other hand are the mass of disorganized buildings with the odd bit of barren dessert between them....

Basically Israel has benefited from a strong government, plenty of investment and an organized society, the Palestinians have bred like rabbits and have no means of supporting themselves. I do concede that the Israelis haven't made it easy for their neighbours though.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

yeah, I'd say hemming your neighbours in, stopping basically all trade routes and bombing the hell out of them is making things a little difficult for the Gaza Strip.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

My middle east history isn't brilliant but hasn't the Gaza strip existed pretty much from day one in the 40's? I didn't think it was a case of the Israelis driving them into the corner so to speak. The fact that the two respective governments haven't been able to work out some trade routes since is I am sure the fault of both of them, however just because the Israelis have got their act together better than just about every other country around them shouldn't be making them the bad guys here. Everybody else has been far to busy fighting amongst themselves.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

The British helped instigate it. Plenty of documentation to back that fact up. That 'green line ' was drawn by a British chap in the 1950s. So called because of the coloured pencil he happened to have in his hand.
40,000 Turkish troops illegally sit in the north. I've been through no man's land to cross Nicosia. It's not nice, especially when you have to travel like a tourist to your own blooming property.
Speaking of, the acres of ancestral land and buildings (if anything) will finally be documented later this year. I'll be taking photographic evidence of what is sadly left.
I've a map of every family property pre 74.


Occupations leave refugees that have to set up home elsewhere. A lot of Brits scream and shout about refugees coming here, of any sort. If Britain didn't help create them in the first place by sticking their noses in, they wouldn't be displaced. Families get strewn around the globe, and they feel they never belong. Snubbed through no fault of their own.
It's a subject I've taken great interest in, in recent years. It's certainly made me feel particularly strongly about Palestinians.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Wow!

All trade in and out of Gaza is controlled via Israeli checkpoints, and can be closed at their choosing. No building materials are permitted to be imported (at least in recent years). I can't remember where I got this next bit, but I'm sure I've heard about there being a calculation of how many palestinians there were in Gaza multiplied by the required daily calorific intake and the resultant being the amount of food that was allowed to pass the check points.

A few years ago an independent NGO was reporting how the number of pampers being allowed in was restricted

And remember this isn't two different governments in two countries - there is no Palestinian state. This is essentially us, ring fencing Wales, blockading the ports and carefully calculating what gets past Offa's dyke. Except for the fact that it's the size of one city, with four times the people.

Linky thing just to indicate it's not simply a case of not having established trade routes

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Whether right or wrong, and I feel that my own opinion is unimportant here, Israel will eventually 'win' the Gaza argument because they have the infrastructure and money from America. They have so much American support that no one will be able to stop them, and yes the Palestine residents do have Facebook, but Israel has the backing of most of the Western media.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

This is quite the horrible reality. I read today that a lot of British MPs get donations from Israel. Hold on, I shall find the link.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

...and when countries 'gift' each other donations, there's always strings attached
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...el4-dispatches

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Given the open hostility Hamas has towards Israel are you suggesting they should just have an open border?

I'm not trying to take sides here but whether or not we agree with what went on back in the 40's, 50's or even 60's it happened and nothing will undo that. Yes Israel has become the force it is now because it has enjoyed Western support, however they have also been extremely organized and displayed a unity not evident anywhere else in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them. Hamas on the other hand refuse to recognize Israel and want them out (like that is ever going to happen).

If Wales kept bombing England instead of just sending us speeding tickets I'm pretty sure we'd blockade their border to!

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

That is actually the easiest part to explain. Simple human nature, sadly. In the same way that many bullied kids become bullys themselves and many abusers were once abused themselves, a nation that feels historically ill treated and surrounded by enemies is going to feel the need to lash out.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

if i'm not mistaken Israel also control the fresh water supply and utilities.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

I'm just saying it's Chicken and Egg. Surely it's understandable that 1.5m people pushed into such a small place might support the less savoury elements of their society pushing back against their oppressors (and it's by no mean's the majority of those dying who are fighting back).

Also, with regard to Israel not wanting the Gaza strip.... Is that only because it's the last area left? The areas referred to as Israeli Settlements are outside the lands originally granted and within areas originally given to Palestine. In the 40s, 50s, 60s etc was it said that I'm sure that Israel won't want any more that they've already been granted (it's a rhetorical question... I don't know).

I honestly try to remain neutral in these things, but with this one I have to admit that I struggle. There are so obviously faults on both sides, but as had already been said, this is far from a war of equals.

To change the analogy... during Northern Ireland - I'm sure there were oppressions, but I don't recall basic human necessities being stopped. And that didn't end by any kind of mass offensive. It took diplomacy and concessions on both sides.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Without intervention the whole of Cyprus would likely be Turkish by now.

And probably none of it would have been Turkish if there hadn't been a (Greek-cypriot) military coup in the first place.

As for Israel/Palestine. The partition line's placing is largely irrelevant since it never happened, they all kicked off and took what they could get before the partition could be implemented.

Re: Gaza and Israel
 

Watching BBC 2 at the moment, Children of Syria. It's no wonder things never get resolved there when you have a nine year old child saying "it's better to start a revolution and die than to live a bad life under the regime..." whilst sitting proudly next to his armed teenage (just) brother. They haven't got a chance.