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The Crash Detectives - a sobering story
I saw this on SVR and thought I'd share it here.
It's a long read which shows you can never be sure just what sort of f*ck*ng maniac you might encounter on the roads during an everyday, routine journey: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43716912 TL;DR - guy on a CB500 heading home to his family from working a shift on Christmas Day 2015 overtook a Mini on a virtually deserted M4. In response to being overtaken, the Mini's driver accelerated aggressively and started hounding the rider for several minutes before clipping the bike, causing it to crash into the central reservation, which killed the rider at the scene. The driver at first denied seeing or being involved in any incident, but was eventually convicted thanks to painstaking detective work. He was given 7 years for death by dangerous driving, and another year for attempting to pervert the course of justice. Personally, I feel the sentence should have been much longer, especially as the sentencing guidelines allow for up to 14 years. |
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I think judges are told not to send people to jail because of overcrowding, well build some more then :confused: |
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That is a really awful and heart-breaking tale.
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Or would you prefer to be locked up wthout trial to work as slave labour to fund them? Because that is exactly what's happening in the USA. 25% of the world's prison population is behind bars in the USA and 95% of them are there without ever having gone to trial. https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80091741 |
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I am happy to pay more tax to see murdering scumbags behind bars, far too many wandering the streets, let out early because of insufficient sentences being handed down, jailed for 15 years and then out in 6 years, a good criminal is more than a match for soft hearted psychologists and shrinks employed by our 'justice' system, truth is we have way too many laws and nowhere near enough justice.
As for intent, someone is still dead because of road rage, and a vehicle is weapon of choice for terrorists these days. We are talking about UK not USA.............. |
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Stop looking at MSM and life is much better.
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Prison is not just about locking up and throwing away keys. They are about retribution, incapacitation, deterrence and rehabilitation.
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My friend's dad, a kind, intelligent man I know and like, momentarily passed out at the wheel. He was with his wife in the car on the way back from a hospital appointment where they'd just received the diagnosis that she had a terminal illness.
In that brief moment, caused by stress, he veered into the opposite lane and killed a biker. He served time in prison. For a while after he came out, knowing I too ride a Suzuki, he found it hard to even talk to me until I went up to him, gave him a hug and told him that he never set out to hurt anyone that day. He didn't use his car maliciously, it was a tragic accident. He no more wanted to hurt or kill a biker than he would kill his own son. However the courts said he'd driven carelessly so he had to spend time in prison. I would have disagreed. This case is so different. This man knew he had an eyesight problem and should never have even been driving. He used his car as a weapon. He lied, tried to cover up his crime and showed no remorse and he had numerous previous form for various misdemeanors. They should have locked him up for a lot longer and he'll probably come out and do exactly the same thing again. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk |
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OK, lots of emotional language both on here and in the article, including the words use to summarise at the end. Lets look at reality shall we? Once upon a time many many years ago if you offended someone they were considered quite within their rights to call you out to a duel and this sometimes led to one, or both, of you being killed. Fortunately as a society we evolved a bit and this practice became frowned upon, and eventually made illegal, and today fortunately it only happens now and again, usually between drunken louts outside the kebab shop on a Saturday night.
Unfortunately human nature hasn't actually kept up with the expectations of society and people are still inclined to completely lose all sense of reason and perspective when they feel insulted, and this may well be a case in point..... Take one motorcyclist riding up the motorway quite quickly (his average was over the speed limit, work out for yourself what he was probably doing) and he comes up behind a car on an otherwise quiet motorway pooling along in the centre lane (the photo) or the fast lane (the drivers admission) and it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to suspect there is every likelihood he felt the need to communicate his displeasure towards the driver. Maybe he just passed a bit close, perhaps he cut across in front of him, perhaps he used that well known hand signal suggesting the driver should be in lane one, I don't know, but I'd be very surprised if he did nothing, especially given what then went on to happen. I'm not making any excuses for the car driver, and I'm certainly not suggesting what he did is anything other than an outrageous act for which he most certainly should be locked up, but I am offering an explanation as to why what went on probably did, something which seems to have been completely overlooked in the article. It may also go a long way to help understand the sentence dished out. This wasn't a premeditated act (in that the driver didn't set out to kill the rider that day), it is an act of violence that happened when an otherwise mundane and innocent event was allowed by both parties to escalate out of hand. Personally as an ex copper and an active motorcyclist I see people driving like complete idiots on a daily basis but I'm pragmatic enough about it to recognise that my responsibility now is towards myself and my family. Some may consider that selfish, tough, I've done my bit, now i just want to stay alive and getting involved in any kind of argy bargy against anything with more wheels than you is only going to end one way. |
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The sentence is too lenient, especially when compared to that given to very high speed driving which results in no accident or death. Or compared to the poor soul who passed out and killed someone mentioned earlier in this thread.
Trying to explain/justify/understand it, by saying the biker might have given the finger is ridiculous. Yes, the finger may have annoyed the other driver, but come on, he has some serious responsibility driving a car, and he failed to honour that. Selfish pr!ck. Our courts and justice system is a joke sometimes, this is just another example of it. I too avoid confrontation at all costs, it never comes out well for anyone. The roads are not the place to bash your chest. However, I will flick the finger when needed, making sure I am able to keep clear of any (pathetic) fallout. |
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I don 't want to get too drawn into this but I have to say that I have overtaken drivers, mostly other men, who just do not like being overtaken by anyone, even if the manoeuvre was perfectly safe. I'm sure some of them see it as a slight on their masculinity.
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Nobody knows for sure what started the chain of events, including the court, but whatever it was resulted in someone dying by the probably negligent actions of another.
It doesn't really matter what/who started it, does it? I never said/meant that suggesting what started it was ridiculous, I meant that trying to defend/explain the low sentence or the drivers actions, by what started it was ridiculous. It may well be the biker started it by flicking the finger, if so then why did he do that? Because the driver was lane hogging? Who started it then? We are not in the playgroud....... Bikers are hated by the courts, both in my experience and looking at unfair judgements that are passed. Compare cases of excessive speed in cars with that on bikes, the biker usually comes off worse. I used to think the Police hated bikers as well, and treated us unfairly because of it, but my experience has shown that generally not to be true, with the odd exception..... |
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This driver was poodling along the motorway at an average speed below 60. That's a fact from the investigation. It's not unreasonable to assume he would have been overtaken by numerous other vehicles, none of which appear to have been taken as a slight on his masculinity
The bike was averaging over 70mph, another fact from the investigation. At some point the bike has passed the car and immediately both of their speeds increase dramatically. That's another shown fact. I'm not trying to excuse or justify what then went on, just try to understand why it happened so that I can learn from it, fundamentally because I'm a selfish bugger and I wouldn't want to find myself in that situation. The facts then show that both the bike and the car continued along the motorway close together for some distance at high speed. That didn't happen by accident, it happened as a direct result of a conscious decision by both parties involved, either of whom could have stopped it from happening in an instant. Everything I have said so far is a fact, from here on we can start exploring theories about how people felt or what they were trying to do, but they will be just that, educated guesses. My educated guess is that both persons involved lost their cool and did stupid things. After thirty years as a copper I'd like to think I know enough about human nature to understand how easily that happens, I've even been guilty of it myself. We don't know if the car driver became so incensed that he deliberately knocked the rider off (his history tends to suggest he wasn't a particularly level headed chap) if he misjudged the distance when trying to pass close to the bike, or they both swerved towards each other at the same time, but either way it all went tragically wrong for both of them. No length of sentence will bring the biker back, or right the wrong done that day. We live in an age of social media where the news is regarded as entertainment rather than informative facts. Everything you read and hear has an agenda behind it (and no, I'm not a complete conspiracy freak) because they ether want to engage with you, or give you a particular message. As a population we are very good at reading what we want to see and then jumping on whichever part of a story happens to support the particular bandwagon that happens to be passing at the time. I have absolutely no doubt that everything I have just said would have come out in the court case, but the judge was very careful in his summing up, and the media in what they reported, because they knew that any inference that the biker had a part to play in events would have been turned against them, in much the same was as andy650 did with my original post. The only good that can come from this entire sad affair is that folks could learn from it, unfortunately that kind of message isn't what people want to hear. |
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I dont think it was a low sentence given what could be proven in court. We know he had a history of petty crime and bullying behaviour and we know he was driving slowly then sped up around the time the biker passed him. We know they were in close proximity just before the crash and we know they collided and the biker died. We know the scrote didnt stop and lied about the incident later. All pretty damning stuff and it went to court and he was guilty as charged. What couldnt be proven was exactly what happened at the point of impact. We,me included, think we know what happened. We think he was the sort of ******** who deliberately used his car as a weapon and deliberately knocked the biker off. We think this is at best manslaughter and probably murder but none of that could be proven to the standard required by our justice system. Overall I think that was the right way to deal with it.
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Personally I think the sentences handed down for causing death by dangerous driving are too lenient. The guidelines allow for up to 14 years, but often the sentence is half that. In cases where multiple fatalities occur, they can be convicted of several counts, given 7 years for each death but these usually are to run concurrently but can be stipulated to run consecutively so a more appropriate time is served. This never happens.
Some of the shorter stories on the crash detectives series show appalling driving and the driver is caught bang to rights (hence short story on the program), resulting in one or more deaths and the sentence is always less than 7 years. (Perhaps they have particularly weak judges in Gwent) |
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Easy to call for longer sentences for causing death by dangerous driving but I believe better enforcement is the answer most likely to work. We need to nip dangerous driving in the bud irrespective of the individual consequences of any given event. So aggressive behaviour,tailgating,inappropriate speed,racing others,jumping lights and similar attitudinal issues should be taken more seriously. Thats the way to prevent dangerous driving becoming fatal driving.
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The only other option is to let them get close, then quickly change lanes and hammer the brakes and let them fly past, but then what? They can stop as well..... I do not see how either of them could have "stopped that situation in an instant"? Sure, if he had been on a Busa and it was dry and clear, he would be long gone, but in the circumstances I suspect he was trapped. I really feel like you are trying to attribute some blame to the biker, when he was the more vulnerable one who ended up dead. I know where you are coming from, trying to understand exactly what happened so maybe it wont ever happen to you, and that is exactly what I do whenever I see footage of an accident. But, making guesses and then concluding the biker was in some way to blame, oversteps the mark in my book. The driver was a scroat who did everything he could to avoid justice, he did many things wrong and deserved everything he got, and more. |
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On a personal note, I had a similar incident thankfully at a lot lower speeds.
I did a fruity overtake on someone and clearly made them jump, he caught me up and started hurling abuse. I ignored him (as I always do), which resulted in him overtaking me and then slamming brakes on, all I could do was change lanes and boot it to get away. It was terrifying, I have an irate driver with a weapon, who appeared happy to use it. With no way of defending myself, the only choice was to use the power of the bike and get away. Sadly on a rainy dark motorway with a CB500 I doubt he had the same luxury....... |
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I was basing my earlier replies on having watched the program last week. I've now read the link and see the judge's summing up was pretty damning.
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And my last post (unless someone wants to flame me).....
The investigating copper says: "There's no two ways about it. The driver of that car has intimidated and bullied this motorcyclist and has driven him to his death." Just take that as it is, and stop trying to attribute any blame to the biker. His family would be mortified if they read this thread. |
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Interestingly, he'd had 30 previous convictions for driving without a licence or insurance. Obviously the punishments he received for these were a real deterrent too. |
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Seems reasonable to me he should have got a sentenced for causing death by dangerous driving, another for leaving the scene and another for trying to cover it up. Fourteen years would be in the ball park. IMO. Shame consecutive sentences are not implemented more often. And his ban should start when he gets out.
Lets be honest the systematic institutionalised cover up of paedophilia, exposed since the Saville affair (and before) should indicate to the public how very little is taken seriously in this country. |
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Sometimes, just being a biker is enough to set some people off. A few weeks ago I was on the bike overtaking a queue of slow moving traffic on an A road at rush hour. As I was about to overtake a people carrier, it suddenly swerved right into the oncoming lane to block my pass. Fortunately, I saw the move early enough to brake but had to move into the oncoming lane. Luckily there was no traffic coming towards me otherwise I would have been wiped out.
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Id like to see better enforcement and a more detailed log kept on driving offences. Anyone caught causing high risk to others gets an endorsement and doing it again results in a ban. You dont get your ticket back until you can demonstrate you are both competant and attitudinally reformed.Some people wont pass that test and wont ever drive again. The message would soon get through that aggressive and provocative driving was no longer tolerated and the roads would be much safer for it. Long prison terms might make us feel collectively better but only proper enforcement will make any difference. |
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From experience I can tell you that knocking somebody off a motorcycle is incredibly easy to do, and I should know because I've done it numerous times. It's almost as easy to push them into falling off themselves if you've got the time and space to do it. I've also been on the other end of that shoe and had quite determined villains trying to knock me off. You will never win if you stay anywhere near them, it's only a question of time. Oh and stop trying to suggest I'm laying blame against the motorcyclist. Blame is for fools and those trying to make money. I'm only interested in cause and how incidents can be prevented. Suggesting someone cannot be involved in the cause of an incident or have contributed to it's prevention simply because they subsequently became the victim is just plain daft. You can stay on your bandwagon if you want but just ask yourself what it will achieve? |
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This is why I sometimes despair of bikers who fit the loudest pipes they can to their bike, I have seen 'for track use only' pipes on road bikes. The public has a low enough opinion of bikers as it is, making the bike louder than a Jumbo jet taking off only adds to our existing PR problem.
I don't know what you have to do using a vehicle in UK to get full 14 years, presumably what you are doing needs to be classed as 'terrorism' or 'racially aggravated' in which case breaking someones leg with a vehicle will get you 30 years. |
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The sentences are a joke, a few years back a guy from Kent killed a 16 yo girl on a scooter in Bournemouth.
He got the car repaired and told a string of lies to everyone involved. He got less time for death by careless driving than he did for perverting the course of justice. Oh he was also disqualified and no insurance. Total sentence was 6 years Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
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I am no more on a bandwagon, than you are Red Herring. I think we sort of agree, but are struggling with the downsides communicating via a forum.
Your suggestion of stopping the bike and ultimately getting off is a good one, not sure I would want to leave one of my precious babies in the hands of a p!ssed off lunatic! |
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When I watched this, I thought there for the grace of your god go all of us. Most if not all experienced bikers will have at some time in their lives experienced a motorist who takes exception to something we do. I remember one Friday about 2pm sat in a car in a queue near Russell Square as I was fighting my way home from a meeting in Holborn. In front of me sat at a temporary red light was a transit van. As a courier passed me on the outside and tried to pass the van an arm came out with what looked like a piece of wood and gave him a great whack. Bike/rider ended up in a heap.
The rider gets up and attempts to remonstrate with the driver who I can hear saying I have had enough of you lot, it is time you waited in the queues like the rest of us! Of course the rider wasn't interested, and attempted to get the driver out of the locked door and eventually resorted to picking up a length of piping (guess that was why the temp lights) and attacked the van. Along come plod who are not interested in the rights/wrongs and drag the two to the side of the road for a talking to, and shift his van so we can continue on our way. But may times filtering, have I seen drivers who do see me approach and for every 10 that make room for me, 1 will try to stop me! So we know you do not need to do anything, if a driver is in a bad mood and the red mist descends there does not need to be provocation, it is then how to safely diffuse the situation. Assuming he is not directly behind, Bikes will generally stop more efficiently than cars. So grab a big handful and let him get on his way. Not a good idea to swing across his path to head for the hard shoulder though! These days I ride with a camera for my own protection should I have a coming together with a numpty. But ideally the numpties should already have been identified and re-educated. But when you read of drivers with 30+ convictions flouting bans/insurance etc. Sometimes they need to be locked up for the safety of other road users, not given another meaningless ban. |
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TBF that driver did also beat the guy to death as he lay on the road having ploughed into him with a Mustang following a chase through traffic and on pavements.
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