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-   -   Hell boys (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=138832)

GeneticBubble 04-09-09 09:33 PM
Hell boys
 
So was at work this evening and as i was getting the papers ready for returned i noticed the sun which i started reading and the story on the front page made me angry and sickened and its the first time i've have actually felt like that while reading a paper.

summary of the story,

Evil brothers aged just ten and 11 yesterday admitted a vile orgy of torture against two other lads that left one begging "leave me to die." In a vicious and prolonged attack in a rubbish-strewn ravine, the pair burned and stabbed the terrifeied nine and 11 year olds, and forced them to abuse eachother.

and thats not even the half of it, anyone else read this story and has angry at the parent/kids as i am?

kwak zzr 04-09-09 09:35 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
i saw this too and felt the same also, i just dont know what makes these kids tick.

Wideboy 04-09-09 09:35 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
oh yes but we can't have a go at them because they thought there was a reset button....


string the ****ers up and scalp them

GeneticBubble 04-09-09 09:37 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wideboy (Post 2026164)
string the ****ers up
Im pleased to see the childrens dad said the exact same thing

Milky Bar Kid 04-09-09 10:19 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
I think this story is disgusting. I cannot understand how a 10 yr old and an 11 yr old were capable of carrying out such horrific attacks on boys roughly the same age. It is, well, I actually can't find the words to describe it.

captainsmelly 04-09-09 11:22 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Burn the ****s

Edit - Er swear filter naughty word. Choose a bad one. It'll fit.

gruntygiggles 05-09-09 12:04 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
I've just read that and I am in a state of utter disbelief. I just cannot begin to understand why any human would find pleasure in doing even a fraction of what they did to those poor boys. I absolutely think the upbringing has played a major part in how they've developed as kids....but really...to do that, you have to be just pure evil.

I hate to say this, but I do wonder would those poor boys have been better off if they'd been killed. I know that's controversial, but they will have to live the nightmare through the memories for the rest of their lives and quite simply, I think that they're lives have probably been ruined. I shudder to think what they are going to have to go through in trying to deal with this!

It just beggars belief really doesn't it. The judge and barristers took off their wigs in order not to intimidate the defendants........I say, it's about time they got more than a healthy dose of intimidation....the lack of it in their lives so far is quite evident.

Yep.....just beggars belief!

DanAbnormal 05-09-09 12:51 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
What's really sad is they'll blame it all on video games. Some humans are just f*cked up.

Von Teese 05-09-09 07:24 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
I dont even want to read it.

I think that human beings are devolving into monsters of our own creation.

Also there is a LOT of Mental Health problems out there, it is definately on the increase, I think that people who act in a sick obsessive manner MUST have some kind of mental issue, no rational human being should be able to conduct that kind of sick behaviour and enjoy it unless they have something wrong.

Shame that they cant get the help they need!

Bri w 05-09-09 07:46 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Heard a phone in on the radio yesterday.

A social worker, "but you don't seem to realise that the defendants are the real victims in this."

I then subjected my radio to a 30 sec rant, at which point it rang ChildLine.

Seriously though, my brother-in-law grew up via various homes/foster homes, broken family/separated from his brothers, mum commited suicide. He is one of the most level headed guys i know. Social workers, and defendants hiding behind its because i had an abused childhood is the one thing to get him to say rowlocks. And his 3 bros are in the same mould.

Kid does something wrong, chastise it within the bounds of reason and it won't do it again. Give it a cuddle, send it on safari to Africa, and it is likely to do it again so it can get a trip to the Amazon jungle.

ranathari 05-09-09 08:13 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

Bluefish 05-09-09 08:34 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranathari (Post 2026319)
There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

better send them to disneyland then ****s, ps i have had a spell in a childrens home, and never done anything like that, yet, must have been all the counciling i received not.

Balky001 05-09-09 08:44 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranathari (Post 2026319)

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.
No, the real tragedy is what they did to those kids & the abusive parenting.

Why are the parents not being prosecuted. The woman has 5 other kids, 1 other already in custody. If you bred wild animals to roam the street attacking everyone then you would go to jail, the parents need to be punished in this case just as much, and for safety sake to society (not for them)the other 5 kids should be taken in to care and assessed. Why do we have to wait for somone to comit a crime like this before they are locked up, they showed so many signs but it the begging 'give them a chance brigade, the allows them to create victim after victim.

Bri w 05-09-09 08:44 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranathari (Post 2026319)
There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.
My apologies for flippancy, but it is in "idle banter."

Being part of a fostering/adopting family i have seen, and grown up with the good and the bad. I have been cruelly tortured by an older foster child, and i feel compassion for him, although i didn't at the time.

And i do take leave from work to work with the various child support agencies. I also spent 4 years working as a volunteer, and holding down a full time job at the same time. I also know that brain programming starts in the womb, and that an abused mother invariably gives birth to a child that is stressed. And the child struggles to cope with stressful situations, a common response to the situation being to lash out.

As to Social workers et al; they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A tough job.

Sadly i've also have a dodgy sense of humour that escapes now and again. Thankfully i also know when to be professional.

So in the theme of banter, in this cyber world, hanging's too good for 'em!

gruntygiggles 05-09-09 08:55 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Ranathari - I totally agree with most of your point....apart from the real tragedy not being what they did to those boys. I agree, the defendents are not to blame, but they are evil.......they were not born that way and given a decent start in life, would have been different boys, but the fact that they have developed into the kind of people that can inflict that level of torture onto others means that they will never be "normal" no matter how much counselling the now recieve.

Should they spend the rest of their lives in jail? I don't know, the rest of the lives of such young kids is a very very long time, but they do need to be put into a system that will punish as well as support them now.

It's just not good enough to put them into the system. The 11 year old is showing zero remorse......he's learned nothing in the last 5 months!

gruntygiggles 05-09-09 08:56 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balky001 (Post 2026333)
No, the real tragedy is what they did to those kids & the abusive parenting.

Why are the parents not being prosecuted. The woman has 5 other kids, 1 other already in custody. If you bred wild animals to roam the street attacking everyone then you would go to jail, the parents need to be punished in this case just as much, and for safety sake to society (not for them)the other 5 kids should be taken in to care and assessed. Why do we have to wait for somone to comit a crime like this before they are locked up, they showed so many signs but it the begging 'give them a chance brigade, the allows them to create victim after victim.
+1

Von Teese 05-09-09 09:30 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).

I think that 'blaming' (of parents, society, a blade of grass that scared them as a baby etc) is also not the way forward, it is definately a contributing factor when a child is in the 'care' of parents who are cruel and abusive but then what of the children who are spoiled and treated like gold by their parents, they too do things of which are unspeakable and most of them have never had a hand laid on them in their lives!

I think that people are just all different, life can shape and mould what you really are, (what the artist does with his sculpting..it will always be a piece of stone at the end of the day).

I really believe that people who can do and enjoy these sort of things have cruel underlying tendencies and others have mental health issues.

Exterior factors can help create a situation but I wouldnt say are the sole cause.

ranathari 05-09-09 10:32 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026351)
Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).
No, you're right.

I meant it's a tragedy because it means more kids could end up becoming victims of other abused children. If the system isn't sorted out and effort put into terminating cycles of abuse before they begin then we'll see this situation playing out again. It's a lesser tragedy if we learn the lesson and prevent it from happening again.

svdemon 05-09-09 10:33 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Death Penalty

Milky Bar Kid 05-09-09 10:42 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026351)
Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).

I think that 'blaming' (of parents, society, a blade of grass that scared them as a baby etc) is also not the way forward, it is definately a contributing factor when a child is in the 'care' of parents who are cruel and abusive but then what of the children who are spoiled and treated like gold by their parents, they too do things of which are unspeakable and most of them have never had a hand laid on them in their lives!

I think that people are just all different, life can shape and mould what you really are, (what the artist does with his sculpting..it will always be a piece of stone at the end of the day).

I really believe that people who can do and enjoy these sort of things have cruel underlying tendencies and others have mental health issues.

Exterior factors can help create a situation but I wouldnt say are the sole cause.
++++++++1.

Totally totally agree.

I think that although what the boys (defendants) have been through in their past will have a bearing on how they behave, like VT says, I do think they must have something wrong to make them carry out such terrible acts.

At the end of the day, it is probably too late for them to be rehabilitated into ordinary life without them causing problems and potentially hurting someone. I just wonder what these two will be like when they are 20/21? I would imagine they will be very very dangerous men.

Then again, like Jamie Bulgers murderers, they will get new identities and everything they could ever wish for when they are released........

ophic 05-09-09 11:30 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026351)
Exterior factors can help create a situation but I wouldnt say are the sole cause.
Don't agree. The research papers that i'm aware of conclude that only about 15% of human behavioural characteristics are born in - the rest are learned. It's the old nature/nurture argument.

However when you consider just how much the brain develops in response to stimuli, it becomes clear how much influence it has. If you cover a baby's eyes for the first few weeks of life it will be blind. I think that likewise, if a child is never shown compassion/love etc, it will never be able to receive it.

Von Teese 05-09-09 11:43 AM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ophic (Post 2026416)
Don't agree. The research papers that i'm aware of conclude that only about 15% of human behavioural characteristics are born in - the rest are learned.
The above says you disagree with me saying that external factors are not the SOLE cause.
Yet you say that 15% are born in...therefore only 85% can be down to external factors therefore not 100% and therefore cannot be seen as the SOLE cause.

How on earth they managed to work it out to 15% is beyond me though.

All I will say is that I have been to plenty of homes where a persistant young offender lives, met the parents who are caring and nurturing and the embarrassed siblings who have never done anything criminal in their lives...so in these cases (which are most)...you are blaming.......????????



I think most people have gone through distressing times in their lives, does that mean that we can all turn evil accordingly?

ophic 05-09-09 12:09 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026422)
How on earth they managed to work it out to 15% is beyond me though.
yeah no idea either. I think they're trying to quantify "a relatively small influence"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026422)
All I will say is that I have been to plenty of homes where a persistant young offender lives, met the parents who are caring and nurturing and the embarrassed siblings who have never done anything criminal in their lives...so in these cases (which are most)...you are blaming.......????????
Perhaps blame isn't the point. Individuals are different, have different learning styles, and therefore what works to "educate" one child into a pleasant member of society may not work for another. Also the influence of the siblings isn't taken into account, and parenting style can change over time - so siblings are frequently not brought up in exactly the same way. Remember that there is no perfect upbringing - however being too soft might be as bad as being too harsh on a child.

However that "15% that is born in" has to come from the parents by normal genetic inheritance. So if the parents are "normal" members of society, then there's no explanation here either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Teese (Post 2026422)
I think most people have gone through distressing times in their lives, does that mean that we can all turn evil accordingly?
I think abuse or neglect during the formative years has a lasting effect on behaviour, but during adulthood less so. Having said that, the law is the law - break it and you should be punished, regardless of cause. Of course, the punishment principle just doesn't work on some people... could it be that, like compassion and love, if you're not introduced to the concept of punishment as a child, it will not be an effective means of "directing" behaviour later on in life?

Von Teese 05-09-09 12:16 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
I know where you are coming from, I think what I was trying to say is...

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/v...oodandevil.jpg

ophic 05-09-09 12:23 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Some say we're all born good. I prefer to think we're all born evil and unless we're shown how to function in a society, we can't do it.

But then "evil" is considered to be a conscious decision to do something bad, rather than a mistake.

I'm sat here waiting for grout to dry, so excuse any cobblers I might spout :p

Von Teese 05-09-09 12:50 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
lol...no worries, Im just bored and waiting for something to end on Ebay!

Milky Bar Kid 05-09-09 12:51 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Well for what its worth, I agree with VT!







Because she will shout at me if I dont!

Von Teese 05-09-09 12:55 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Yeah too right MBK...you know you are my b'yach ;)

Milky Bar Kid 05-09-09 12:57 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
I think I am everyones B'yach.............

Von Teese 05-09-09 12:59 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Bar Kid (Post 2026462)
I think I am everyones B'yach.............
Wrong answer!
Remeber what we discussed!!!

You say 'yes mistress'

That is all ;)

Milky Bar Kid 05-09-09 01:00 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Sorry Mistress....Yes Mistress...

Von Teese 05-09-09 01:04 PM
Re: Hell boys
 
Good girl, you may go back to your cage ;)

Whooohooo won my item on Ebay...just saved myself £100!!

Well happy!

Ok guess I had better stop derail ..soz


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