Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Why does my SV hate me ?

I've tried to love it I really have.

Coming back from work just now, whats that smell? why is there black smoke coming out the back of my SV passsenger seat? My bikes on fire Arrghh! :smt087

Managed to pull over and unlock the back seat, rip out all the bits and bobs and down the side near the rectifier I can see a nice yellow flame thats just about to catch that nice plastic rear panel. I managed to dowse the flames with a can of diet coke.

Got it back home and have removed the rectifier, it looks like it just exploded into flames. What's that all about ?

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

yarp sounds like your bike hates you buddy... :(

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

As jokey as I make this incident sound I do now have even more misgiving about the SV. I could quite easily have been left with a burnt out bike and all the hassle of claiming for an insurance write off and having to find a replacement bike.

I don't mind if a part fails, that's just wear & tear, but to explode into flames behind a plastic panel that involves the use of 4 tools to get at it. Seems kinda irresponsible by the designers / Suzuki.

Q: Should I raise this with Suzuki UK ?

Q: Whats the best quality (least likely to explode into flames!) rectifier for the SV ?

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

It can and does happen to rectifiers. Its not related to any particular make or model either. Bikes can and do go wrong sadly.

You need to run a check on the genny as over charging is a common cause of failure.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Cheers SV650Racer The voice of reason / the cold slap to the mush. I was getting a bit hysterical there, apologies. Its just i've had a couple of old cars have electrical fires (many moons ago), always around my own poorly fitted alternators, rubbing wires to earth(-) but never on any of the bikes i've owned, over 10 years.

I kinda assumed that they where solid state type devices that just fail, not burst into flames. When you look at them they just look all metal, not much to burn. Its only when you turn them over and see a sort of electrical device set in a big block of epoxy resin.

I might start carrying a little bottle of water under the passenger seat from now on......

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

make it holy water, you might have more luck that way ;)

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

How many times has it happened in your biking career? :)

I've been biking since I was 15 (now 40) and I've never had one go on any of the bikes I've had. (lots)

and as an side, I've got a 600 Gixxer Reg Rec if you need one! :)

C

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Not sure that's what you really need for an electrical fire...

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Oh wait simesb I'll just thumb through the selection of extinguishers that I have strapped to my bike, oh there it is the CO2 with the black square, thats the one I should have used, silly me!

Well a nice big squirt from a diet coke bottle, followed by water sucked up from a nearby puddle at least avoided the insurance claim and got me home.

Perhaps I do need an exorcism carried out on my bike ? :smt096 do do dodo do do dodo dodo do ........ (tune from Twilight Zone)

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Quick update on this...
For some reason none of the replacement Rectifiers on ebay (even oem ones) look like my frazzled rectifier ? My rf looks like this...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600...torcycle_Parts ( model RS41 33C1 29 2D16 )

Q: Could this be the reason for the spontaneous combustion maybe, rectifier from a totally different bike ?

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

The GSXR rectifier/regulator is a common swap for the fragile SV ones, sounds like the previous owner has suffered a similar problem at some stage...

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I personally have never had an issue or had a customer that has had an issue with the reg/rec on any year of SV650. I certainly wouldnt say the SV reg/rec is fragile by any means. More likely the problem is over charging and you ideally need to check the charging system properly, ie ensure the genny isnt causing an issue before swopping out to any other make of reg/rec as swopping make wont cure a problem with the genny!.

Charging system check first!

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I'm in agreement with the cold voice of reason that is SV650Racer.

I bought the bike from a dealer in the area and he has a lot of broken bikes out back for which he may / may not have swapped it off one of these (i'm not accusing anyone here). But regardless of that something earlier in the chain is knocking out the rf and it all seems to points to the alternator / gen.

There has been a history (within my ownership) of electrical problems on this bike. From killed batteries. Indicator bulbs where the contact point lead(Pb) looking burnt / flatened. Was doing the classic fast flashing indicator or only the front bulb flashing. Solved once I'd filed / refreshed the contact points on all 4 bulbs.

I know from my youff and old bangers that when it comes to alternators you just have to stump up the cash for that reconditioned unit if you want to save yourself a load of hassle.

Saying that I did carry out a £12 carbon brush (off ebay, guy in scotland) replacement on my VW Passat windscreen blower recently. VW where asking £180 for a replacement unit. Ca-Ching!

Q: Could it be my style of riding, lots of short sharp, high revs acceleration, i'm not the most conservative rider ?

Q: How involved is the gen replacement, is it under the oil filling hole, round plate thing ?

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Genny is under the left hand case cover. Fairly straight forward to do. Wont be anything to do with riding style.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Normally I have a lot of respect for your opinions but I have to disagree with you here on a fundamental level. As I think you're giving a backwards view on the situation.

a) I have seen lots of reg rec failures on the SV which I have personally verified to be the reg rec at fault with no other charging system issues evident upon direct and repeatable testing.

b) How can a generator issue result in overcharging? The SV genny is pretty robust, it's dead simple and gives a 3ph output. What conceivable fault here could cause overcharging? Shorting to earth would result in undercharging.

OTOH, reg recs can and do cause (well, allow) overcharging by not regulating properly. Mine did, it was supplying 18V to the battery, which not much of the bikes electrics enjoyed very much. Replaced the reg rec and the genny is still going strong 20K+ later.

I agree with checking the generator*. It's easy to do without taking the casings off though.

*And other associated wiring, scrub any corrosion off or even wire the new reg direct to the battery for enhanced reliability. Simple = Good. Modern and good quality MOSFET regulators like CBR are also good.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I said "I personally" and therefore in my opinion I find them to be pretty robust. Now GSXR600 06 is another matter, have changed plenty of those even on 2 mile old bikes. So all in all the SV650 rate of failure I have seen is very low or non existant from what I have seen. Neither have we been asked by anyone to purchase a OEM or aftermarket Reg/Rec. I have sold plenty of Honda ones:cool:

Over charging can and will cause a reg/rec to fry itself. I only stated about running a test on the genny as alot of people dont, will just replace the reg/rec when in fact the genny also has a problem.

Maybe my wording wasnt clear - i often type in between doing something else..and its a fact women cant multi task!

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

This is what I disagree with (testing the genny is a good idea just to check).

Overcharging is caused BY the reg rec.

Rectifier = make 3 phase AC from genny into smooth DC
Regulator = control voltage down to 14.2 from the 50V plus from the stator.


Sort of genny we have on SVs is 3 phase permanent magnet type, aye?

So, this generator is a bit of a daft lump, it puts out a voltage based on what rpm it's spinning at. It charges at full whack all the time. It's not like the old GSXR's or a car with a separate field coil to control voltage.
Thus, since it's always charging at full capacity for that rpm, it physically cannot overcharge anything.

Simply, if your charging voltage is too high, the regulator has failed and that is that. No other part of the system has any part in keeping the voltage down. (voltage too low is another matter)



If you have a different understanding of charging systems I'd be glad to hear it and revise my own ideas.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

If the reg rec isnt working properly and not regulating the voltage properly it can fry itself. I wasnt relating it to any other part of the system other than to suggest checking the genny as part of the fixing it process is a good idea. Im not the techy person, Steve is but this is my bare bones explantion of it that doesnt confuse a customer that often doesnt even know what a reg/rec is let alone the fact their bike has one.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

That first bit there is what caused misunderstanding i.e you saying genny issue could cause reg failure poss including a fire.

Anyway, misunderstanding is rectified :)


On a more philosophical level, it's not right to simplify a point when that can gloss over a pivotal detail, if someone doesn't understand it you just have to take longer to explain. Then again you know what I think of people who get their bikes serviced at main dealers :mrgreen:

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

TBH ive tried explaining in detail and if I cant I get Steve to do it..99% of people then stare at you with a eyes glossed over look and you can see its going straight over their heads. Most just want to know its getting fixed.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Ahh but on here when people are going to fire in and fix it themselves, the details are pivotal. Especially in electrics where you need to understand before you can diagnose. and it is hardly a complex system (thus confirming my views on dealer servicing customers ;))

TBH, in this case not much doubt that the reg rec needs replacing, since it was on fire :)


I do think the SV regs are pretty p*ss poor though. They're very old tech with a variable output, the MOSFET ones work a lot better. This can be seen just from the voltage output. The SV ones go all over the place, the modern ones sit at 14.2V, bang on.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Just been thinking over how I was riding when the rf went puff. I've always been a big believer in machinery fails when its running style changes (my own little zen thing).

Basically I was crawling along in first (wouldn't normally be in first, because of a step bank in the road had to drop a gear, It had gone into 1st by mistake) with the clutch depressed the engine was reeving higher than sounds comfortable, normally within a second you would ease back on the accelerator. I let it reeve for about double that, about 3-4 seconds. I was in back street trying to find a shop. It was at this point I vaguely remember a "pssstttt sound". Back into second move off and thats when I smell (big nose) electrical burning / see acrid black smoke.

Another change to riding style was the 2200 miles (in 5 days) that I covered a few weeks back riding midlands - Paris - London. Once across the water my average speeds (70-90mph UK) where 80-110mph cruising.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

It makes no difference, if the reg was not happy giving you good charging at whatever revs you want... it was knackered.

Simply, reg needs to do its job from tickover to redline. Only takes one moment of 20V+ to completely fry your bikes electrics, ECU, clocks, lights the lot. Not safe.
This can happen at tickover, or that one odd time you rev it to 9k.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Nowt to do with riding style. Mine has broken recently....and that started from it being layed up for a while. Its done 10k + of varying riding from constant peage speeds of 90+ for hundreds of miles at a time, to gentle bimbling to and from work of a few miles, over a three years. (not my sole bike)

They just go plop.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

My reg/rec went and took the battery with it. It now has a R6 reg rec in it, mainly because after receiving two duff pattern parts the guy who sorted it dug an old one he had out the back out and adapted it.

Haven't had any issues with it

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Its funny didn't the airlines say a similar thing about pilots flying style and over use of the rudder on American Airlines (this was how they were trained) and which was later proved to lead to catastrophic failure of the tail rudder.

You can never test for every possibility, a million monkeys and a million type writers (SV's) situation.

Hypothesis: When an already failing rf is exposed to un-loaded high revs in 1st gear for more than 3 seconds it may burst into flames ?

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I think you're failing to understand either what Chris is saying or how the system works. It doesn't matter what gear you're using or the road speed you attain or the load on the engine - engine speed is the only variable of the alternator.
It is possible that had you never ever revved it past, say, 5000 rpm and your regulator was not the best, then abandoned your former habits and had run the engine at a higher speed the resulting higher voltage could, note could, be the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back.

Maybe.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

But if you never rev the bike past 5000 rpm then you probably eat fairtrade tofu and leave white stains wherever you sit.

I would bet you that reg was either overcharging the bike or undercharging it before it caught fire. Either way doing damage to your machine.

We will never know, but check your battery for swelling.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

As Y_C BEng I wouldn't know much about that ;)
You can't draw a parallel there, you've got a situation of stresses which something is designed to take, and the use going beyond designed in fatigue safety factors. End of the day, you put aluminium through enough stress cycles then it will snap.

You can test for every possibility, there aren't that many, it's not a 3d dynamic stress and fatigue problem which you need a million hours of FEA simulation to solve for an estimation of fatigue life. It's a charging system... use a multimeter... it will tell you SV regs are crap and to change it for a MOSFET type with clean connectors...

I'm not trying to be catty, but don't overcomplicate things.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I suspect you're right. However I personally experienced a similarly fiery reg/rec failure about 15 or so years ago, up until that very trip everything had been fine, and even after putting the fire out the still well charged battery allowed me to finish the remaining 100+ miles of the journey. So whilst I suspect you're probably correct, there still remains the possiblity that it could, just possibly, have been OK right up 'til it popped.

Maybe.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

OK I can accept it could be a one off event, fine. I'm not intentionally being p r i c k ly, i'm just trying to provoke discussion and awareness of what could be for a less cool headed rider (without a bottle of coke), quite a serious situation.

Something to think about: Why is there not a warning indicator for rf failure on bikes as there is on cars when you turn the ignition on. (this is maybe a thread in itself)

My last comment (seriously, no more from me) to this thread. As much as I talk about the SV's failings (foibles - all bikes have 'em) it is an immensely enjoyable bike to ride.

100k Sports car performance for Austin Metro money + 50mpg !

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

It would be nice. I considered fitting a voltmeter (when I get round to minimalising the charging system to reduce weight on crank :smt120)

TBH failure is rare considering number of SVs and number of miles travelled. But that said if I bought another SV I'd put a MOSFET RR on there as safety precaution. I'd rather spend a tenner and do an hours work to remove a possible breakdown.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Car charging systems are slightly, but importantly, different and the light you refer to is not an 'a bit's on fire' warning but a charge indicator, this is effectively operated from the regulator of the car's alternator - precisely the bit that's duffed if the rather simpler system of your bike is not working.
It's not that it couldn't be done, but along with not having that warning we don't, typically, have lighting failure warnings or OAT warnings or a number of other things that cars have the space and complexity for but, generally speaking, are an undesired complication on our light, lithe and simple motor-bicycles.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Aprilias have a voltmeter, and need it :-P

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Even my old GT550s have a voltmeter - and don't need it :D.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Be wanting electric windows next,and parking sensors.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

I'm still seeking a final solution on this and was just about to start a new post on my new theory, failure due to poor "Heat dissipation" with the rf being insulated inside a tight plastic box directly above an efficient heat convector (stainless exhaust). When I found this thread by Atlan from last year !

Q: Has anybody successfully moved the rf to a new position, or even cut air vents above the rf position, into the plastic ?

Q: Is this one of the mythical MOSFET rectifiers that Y_C keeps going on about and would it work ? I would have to get the rf wire plug as well.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-CBR-600-...torcycle_Parts
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Regulator-Rect...torcycle_Parts

I want to solve this problem, the bike has blown both the original oem rf and the more robust gxr rf. If that means doing a bit of soldering / drilling and costing a little more this time fine. All I need to solve now is the allan bolts made of cheese (tempering maybe) and a weather deflector / shield for the back under hung brake and then were cooking on gas.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

WHAT?!?!?!
When mine packed in all you said about my concerns on replacing it were "It'll be reeeite" ;) lol!

OP - swapped mine for the CBR one, no problems since... saying that I flogged the bike to Roberrrt and I havnt seen much of him lately :smt083

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Ahhh but then you didn't need to diagnose the fault, I did that over the phone lol.

Re: Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.
 

Very true, the YC customer help line was buzzing that weekend (unlike my reg/rec).
That was the time you saw it parked up on the roundabout looking distinctly abandond.